a hundred different families gave him a
total of $10
million my phone rings at my desk I'm
like FBI special agent Simon here and
it's this voice on the other end of the
phone going he's here he's here just
because you did this horrible thing
doesn't make you a horrible person we're
all just victims of the circumstances of
Our
Lives I'm so
sorry can't all I can think about is
that guy go
going going to trial in Chicago there
was a guy named Gilberto granados Lopez
this is long before I was an agent and
uh he was a um he actually had a
community newspaper he was a
Mexican-American who had a community
newspaper and um and he'd been in a lot
of legal trouble and he was kind of an
activist type and somehow he set his
sights on this woman in Chicago who was
running a charity for like women and
children in need in the Mexican American
community of Chicago and he was writing
these scathing editorials about her this
absolutely slanderous stuff in his
community
newspaper and so she eventually reaches
out to him and says why are you writing
these things about me you don't know me
I've done nothing wrong you but you
you're can you're destroying my charity
and you're destroying my life and he
said to her very brazenly that I will
stop if you give me $50,000 cash like
shakes her down it's total extortion
right she's like let me get back to you
she contacts the FBI the FBI then W not
me uh better and smarter agents uh the
FBI wires her up um you know meets him
again he he recount she's like you so if
I give you this $50,000 you're going to
not write these horrible things about me
you're going to stop it and uh and he's
like you got it and so she gives him the
50,000 bucks and he gets arrested on the
extortion pretty clear-cut case very
Brazen yeah he goes to trial and he
loses a jury trial why would you go to
trial if you've got wire uh wires
against you or sorry recordings against
you clearly you shook her down you've
met plenty of people who chose to not
accept the very generous plea agreement
he was not one of them he he decided to
fight it there was not much of a defense
put up as far as I could tell um but
because he was just a journalist and
doing a nonviolent crime uh he was let
out between his conviction and told to
come back in 90 days for his sentences
okay right you've seen that not
everybody's gets held awaiting
sentencing and he disappears never to be
seen or heard from again so smash cut to
December 1995 I'm a brand new FBI agent
okay assigned to Chicago and what they
would do in Chicago at the time for new
agents is that they would assign you
like an impossible case that you're not
going to solve um we would call them old
dog cases right and the idea is that
that you're not going to be damag ing
some real investigation by being a
stupid young agent it's really just an
opportunity to get you out there cut
your teeth something to cut your teeth
on that they don't really expect
anything of they expect nothing on it in
fact they would be shocked and appalled
if you actually made the case they
literally just want to get you out there
knocking on doors holding your
credentials right side up and then then
you know interviewing people about this
case that doesn't matter that's really
old and no one's going to solve no one
really cares about and then doing the
paperwork correctly sen your supervisor
sends it back it's all red it looks like
you had a nose bleed on it and corre
with all the corrections then you make
it so you're learning how to be an FBI
agent during this probationary period
okay so I was assigned to catch this
fugitive Gilberto granados Lopez who had
been gone for about six years at this
point right okay and so I was a CPA
coming from a big firm I had never done
a fugitive investigation I I did find at
the FBI Academy but this was my first
case and so I pull the case File and
it's like you know this giant like this
paper right this is you know 95 so the
FBI had not gone digital with it Case
Files paper after paper after paper from
the original
investigation and uh and I had never
caught a fugitive so I remember I took
the giant case File over to the violent
crime task force Fugitive Squad and uh I
found a guy there who is a deputy US
Marshall on the FBI task force kind a
giant old grizzled um Chicago type of
guy and I said listen my name's Tom
Simon I'm a new agent I've been assigned
this fugitive investigation I'm a CPA by
trade so I'm not really experienced in
fugitive investigations can you give me
some pointers as to what steps I should
be taking to try to catch this fugitive
the guy like let me see that is leaing
through he goes all right Tom here's the
deal this guy's Mexican he's from Mexico
he went back to Mexico and he goes
you're never catching him Mexico ain't
going to extradite this guy so here's
what you should do go to your desk and
read a comic book for a while and then
eventually your supervisor is going to
see you and he's going to tell you that
why aren't you working and you're going
to tell him because this guy's in Mexico
and you can't find him and then he's
going to sign you a real case and you
can spend your time doing that here you
go and so I'm like I'm like really
that's the advice I'm getting from you
you owe me lunch yeah yeah so it didn't
sit right with me the idea of going and
sitting and reading a comic book at my
desk um although I kind of liked comic
books at the time so I thought all right
well this whole thing is a big charade
I'm going to play along with the charade
and I begin going through the case File
talking to people who were interviewed
in the original case and people who knew
this guy and family members and stuff
like that and I went out there and began
knocking on doors and asking questions
about have you seen this guy you know
where he is and um and no one knew where
he was and no one had seen him in years
but I learned a lot about him as a
person and some of that was really
interesting Gilberto granados Lopez back
in the 1950s and 60s it makes me laugh
that you say his whole name every time
so go ahead we weren't really on a
firstname basis at this point in the
story um he was the Tango king of
Chicago M he was the best Tango dancer
anyone in Chicago had ever seen nobody
had seen a guy cut up a dance floor in
the ballrooms of Chicago as good as
Gilberto granados Lopez right he may be
doing this in Mexico you get ahead of
yourself you getting ahead yourself
sorry just do you read ahead in these
mystery novels or do you you enjoy every
page of them no so so so it's it's very
I'm learning a lot about him uh he was
this great Tango dancer very respected
and um and I'm out there talking to all
these old people who were part of like
the Tango community of Chicago back in
like the 50s and 60s I guess there was a
thriving ballroom dancing scene there so
none of which got me actually closer to
catching him and I thought you were
going to say that you met somebody oh
yeah I know him we were down in Mexico
last month with
him stay tuned man okay so one thing I
do learn and you'll find this
interesting is that he was still
receiving Social Security direct
deposits to his bank account how the
so I called the Social Security
office of Inspector General I'm like hey
not for nothing but what's going on here
and they said that as long as he's a
fugitive he is allowed to have so get
his social security benefits cuz he was
a senior citizen at the time and uh but
once I catch him and he become goes into
prison then those those get cut off yes
and so I got a good lead here right
because I know what bank account in
Chicago the money is going to right so I
go to the bank and I say to the guy show
my badge I say the bank president it's
very small little Community Bank I said
Hey listen I'm looking for this fugitive
and he's getting his Social Security
payments here um is there any way you
know you could tell me is he coming in
to get his money is is the money being
transferred to another bank somehow how
what's going on here so the banker he
should not have done this but he was
very nice he like pulls it up on his
screen he's the bank president and he's
like yeah the money's just kind of
accumulating there and it's been
accumulating there for for you know
several years in the bank account and no
one's drawing upon it at all it's just
this kind of increased balance and I go
so he's never come into the bank to get
his money and he goes no it's just
getting bigger and bigger and bigger in
his bank account every month when the
Social Security payment is deposited
seems like a waste yeah so it was it was
dead end for me I give the guy my
business card I said all right if he
comes in to get his money you call me
I'm going to show up I'll have my blue
jacket on I'll say FBI at the back I'll
say get on the ground and it'll be very
it'll be a very heroic moment for him
he's like yeah no problem I'll call you
so he takes it shakes my hand I leave
dead end so I continue to kind of go
through the steps talking to former
tango dancers about him and learning
about learning about my guy and then one
day I'm sitting at my desk and I get a
letter in the mail now you have many
young viewers so the letters are what we
had before email
and and it had no return address and I
open it and it was addressed to me and I
open it and it is a photocopied page of
a magazine called dancing USA magazine
it's a trade publication for the
ballroom dancing industry I know you're
a subscriber but I wasn't um and it was
the page that was photocopied was from
like two or three months earlier and it
was from the letters to the editor page
and it was um and and I looked through
there and there was a letter to the
editor editor in dancing USA Magazine
from a few months earlier from Gilberto
granados Lopez and he was writing about
there I guess the magazine had done a
feature on the Aragon Ballroom in
Chicago this big beautiful Ballroom it
was really ornate and the letter was
basically saying how he remembers his
time as the Tango king of Chicago and uh
dancing in the Aragon Ballroom and how
upset he was that the ballroom had
fallen into disrepair and was now
hosting rock and roll shows and uh who
who mailed you the letter did you not
know to the day I don't know so probably
somebody you would talk to it had to be
cuz I gave my business card to everybody
right and it was have my address on it
at the FBI building in Chicago and so
one of the people was still tied into
the Tango community and was leafing
through and oh my God Gilbert or
granados Lopez wrote a letter to the
editor and um and it was kind of
interesting because I had seen the
Beasty Boys in concert at the Aragon
Ballroom the night before I got the uh
the letter about the about Gilberto
granados Lopez complaining about the
Aragon Ballroom but now I got a lead
right right and this through this guy uh
dancing us one is proof of life right
because he was an older fellow at this
point and so I know he's alive somewhere
and uh what else do I know about him
think I I
mean well I mean he he wrote a letter to
this to the editor I can go to the
editor maybe he still got the address
maybe he's something maybe there's a
lead there he reads the magazine okay go
continue another step where's he getting
this magazine this is a trade
publication for the ballroom oh so he's
probably he probably pays for a
subscription and he gets it he's a
subscriber right if he's a subscriber
under his name right yeah this is good
right but we're right now at the
beginning of 1996 this is still very
kind of pre- Internet early days of the
internet I got to find dancing USA
magazine because I don't have a copy of
the magazine right and and and Walgreens
doesn't have this magazine so what I do
is I get on the phone and I start
calling around to different Ballroom
ballroom dancing class places in Chicago
saying hey this is kind of a crazy
question I'm with the FBI do you
subscribe to dancing USA magazine and I
call around in like the third Arthur
Murray Dance Studio I call and say yeah
we got a bunch of copies just sitting
there collecting dust in our waiting
room I go could you go get one and the
guy goes and gets it and it starts and I
go go to the first couple Pages you're
going to see like a page that has like
the editor name and the writer names and
stuff like that and and at the bottom
they may say it and so dancing USA
magazine at the time was published by a
com by a company in Omaha Nebraska and
so find out okay this is good so I next
call at the old in the old days I find
out what the area code was for Omaha
Nebraska I called that area code 55512
one2 and uh and I get the um directory
assistance for Omaha Nebraska I asked
for the number for dancing USA magazine
it's all old school it's all old school
none of this exists this is this is like
black and white TV stuff and um so now I
get the phone number for dancing USA
magazine and then I cold called dancing
USA magazine they the phone dancing USA
magazine and I have no reason on Earth
why they would believe me but I
identified myself my name said my name's
Tom Simon I'm an FBI special agent I'm
conducting an investigation where I'm
looking for a fugitive I have reason to
believe that fugitive is a subscriber to
your magazine I'm wondering if you would
be willing to look up subscriber records
and tell me if you have a subscriber
named Gilberto granados Lopez and tell
me where he is receiving this
magazine and again 2020 that person
hangs up the phone that person thinks
I'm involved in some kind of scam 1996
hold please she comes back two 3 minutes
later goes okay I have his subscription
card here she gives me his address in
Mexicali Mexico MH so I'm right back
where I started from uh with I'm no
you're a lot closer like you know he's
in Mexico but at least you have a I'm in
Mexico but Mexico is not going to
extradite him to the US for this crime
well you got to hide you got to go down
there with a like a black bag and like a
couple of guys and just throw hit him
with a taser and throw the bag over him
sit tie it and drag him off to the you
know throw him in the back of a trunk
and woo right through you may be
surprised to learn that giberto grados
Lopez was not that high of a priority
from the FBI in 196 see rushing into the
fugitive task force and screaming I got
him explaining what you got they' be
like gas up the FBI plane we're going to
Mexicali oh these young guys these young
guys kill me yeah sorry so what I did
though is uh is you know I sat around
just sort of thinking about how I can
get him there get him you know how I can
you know find him and get him back and
they and everyone was and I called
around and everyone was saying there's
zero chance that Mexico is going to
extradite this guy to the us on this and
um so I decided to write write a letter
to him and uh and I wrote a letter I
created a fake letter head it's called
the Fletcher group and um you know with
the Mast head and uh and an address and
phone a fake address and a phone number
now back in these days this is pretty
much pre- cell phone for the FBI every
pod of desks are was like Miller like
four desks were just like together in
the squad area and they like you know a
bunch of there was a a phone in the
middle of it called the hello phone hold
on a second do you know what Barney
Miller is God I knew it too I love I
used to love and then they had the
spin-off fish a Voda yeah so
disappointing anyway okay so think of a
bunch not not like a cubicle Farm like
it is today but a bunch of oldtime metal
desks pressed up against each other and
in the middle of those was a a an old
school landline phone that was not
attributable to the FBI it was called
the hello phone and you would use it for
kind of like quasi undercover operations
and so when that phone rang if you were
in the squad area you would answer hello
and see and to see what they have to say
see what see where this goes and uh and
so I used the hello phone number on my
Mast head for the the Fletcher group and
my letter that I wrote him read like
this Matt and said dear Gilberto granos
Lopez my name is Tom Fletcher I am
president of the Fletcher group we are a
television production company and we
have been assigned uh we're we're on
contract with PBS the public broadcast
system in the us and we're doing a
feature on America's greatest ballrooms
a series of 12 episodes talking about
America's greatest ballrooms hosted by
famous actor and noted Tango dancer
Robert
Duvall mat do you know Robert Duval was
a Tango dancer uh I I learned at the
time but you know who probably also knew
that Robert Deval was a Tango dancer
Gilberto Grado Lopez and so as I said
we're aware of your history as the Tango
king of Chicago and your experience at
at the uh in the Aragon Ballroom we want
to fly you all expenses paid round trip
to Chicago to go to the Aragon Ballroom
and be interviewed by Robert Duvall on
camera about your memories of the
Ballroom in its Heyday before it fell
into disrepair if you're interested
please contact me at this number um and
then at the end I said I really hope
that you accept our offer because we
want to recapture the glory of the
Aragon Ballroom right which is clearly
something passionate to him he's
passionate about right and I wanted to
make sure I threw in the idea of
recapturing something in there and
so sign Tom
Fletcher put a couple stamps on for
Mexico throw it in the mailbox think
nothing of it so you know what I was
thinking you were going to do I was
thinking you were going to say like you
were you worked for the bank and that
his Social Security was ACR and that if
he did not claim it soon the it would be
the account would be listed as being
abandoned and the money would be
returned we discussed that we discussed
that at length the idea of telling him
to go to an affiliate Bank in El Paso
but just the Le Logistics were
just difficult and then he starts
calling the bank and it's just it would
have it would need but it's true like
they would be like yeah there's money
and it's just acre this is how much it
is but the idea the idea what we were
thinking is that we're cutting off that
spigot of money unless you come claim it
and um and so that was our that was
their original like ruse their thought
right but then the bank didn't know have
an address for him in Mexicali Mexico
and so but you could you know like I
mean it's more so now like I think when
Obama took over or be took over be when
he became president he he actually did
something I don't know what it was but
signed some Bill where a lot of these
Banks were things were abandoned like
let's say it's cheated to the state yeah
so yeah they're like look it's we've
been holding $400 we're taking it yeah
so and they set up these things the um
like the Florida in Florida it's called
like the Florida treasury it goes in a
website and you can look up your name in
it and see that like hey I had $12 from
uh that I overpaid the utility company
that's sitting there waiting for me and
you could claim it when I got to the
halfway house my buddy told me about it
um and he's like bro you ought to do
this because you've been gone forever
you probably have some stuff I'm like I
got nothing I looked it up I had uh I
want to say it was almost $3,000 in
there from diff like $1,200 for this
$600 for like homeowners insurance for
some reason I don't know why they would
but I didn't question anything it's like
hey 600 1,200 400 800 almost $33,000
it's found of money yeah they sign it
they cut your check if you prove it's
you but that wasn't a big thing back
then that wasn't until years later but
but Banks do like sometimes people will
like somebody dies and they'll hire an
investigator to track this person down
we had gone round and round and round
about ways to leverage that and there
were just tooo many pitfalls and this
seemed more like a kind of pure play
that we could control the dialogue we
didn't need to enlist a banker to lie to
their customers and stuff like that and
you know he's passionate about it know
you don't write a letter to the editor
this is his Jam right like he's still
writing letters to the editor like 20
years after he danced his last dance and
so um and so I send it there and like 10
days go by and then that hello phone
rings while I'm sitting there in the
squad area I answer it hello and it's
him it's Gilberto granados Lopez and
Matt he was so excited to be a part of
this show he was coming all over himself
he could not wait to come to Chicago and
be interviewed at the Aragon Ballroom by
Robert Duval and so I stay professional
I said well it's great well we'd love to
send you a round trip ticket in my mind
I'm thinking well I'm hoping he's only
going to use half of that and um and you
know and we're picking dates and he
picked a date in by this point a lot of
1996 had uh elapsed so we're looking at
like December it was you know early
December before Christmas and um so sad
don't feel sorry for him and the story
the story falls apart when you start
feeling sorry for this guy and um and so
we send them the send them the tickets
you know go I buy the tickets you know
using like cash or whatever back when
you could go do that with United
Airlines and send them the tickets and
um told him I put him up in a nice hotel
and all that and he keeps calling over
the course of like the next couple days
why would you like me to bring
memorabilia from my time I was said yeah
bring the memorabilia bring it all and
um and so smash cut to December
1996 pre 911 I'm standing there at the
end of the jetway when you could do that
with a little sign in my hand that said
Gilberto granados Lopez watching person
after person after person getting off
the airplane and uh none of whom were
Gilberto
I'm standing there waiting and waiting
and waiting for this guy like everyone's
getting off the plane and just walking
right past me in my little suit with a
sign that says Gilberto granados Lopez
and then finally like some of the crew
members are getting off the guys with
the brooms are getting on and I'm just
about ready to turn around and I see and
I see him walking down the jetway toward
me kind of doing a little old man
Shuffle he'd gained quite a bit of
weight and uh and his eyes lit up when
he sees me there with the sign and he
walked up he goes Mr Fletcher I go Mr
Lopez We he puts out his hand to shake
mine I put my hand in his put it behind
his back and put the handcuffs on him
and bring them in oh were there was
there other it wasn't just you there
there was another agent there wait and
then somebody in the car waiting to
drive us back to the office what did he
say well well I feel kind of bad for the
little EXT don't feel bad for him little
extortion this story is designed to make
me look cool so please do not shatter
this no so uh so as we're driving back
to the FBI office for booking um uh he
asked me if it'd be okay for us to swing
by the Aragon Ballroom to tell them that
that he can't be on the
show I said I said we'd let him know and
um well you're just not getting this are
you Mr Lopez you don't see understand so
uh I'll give you a picture of he and I
you guys can put it in there and I took
a picture with him
[Music]
no yeah he's got his handcuffs on he's
doing this I'll show you the picture
it's it's not terribly far from that and
um and so okay so we go back to the
office you know process him um you keep
he'd already been convicted of this
crime yeah the judge who was his trial
judge was still on the bench you know
what eight years later or whatever it is
and um or you know many years later and
remembered the case and uh and so so
Lopez ended up getting eight years in
prison and uh well more for the for the
absconsion right is it called upconing
at that point right he I'm sure he it
was an escape it I'm sure that the he
did not get the low end of the
guidelines I don't believe he was
charged with any new crimes um but the
judge you know when you take a look at
the guidelines who knows for a a
nonviolent nonthreatening extortion
which is what he was originally
convicted of right I don't think it
would have been eight years so but the
judge will never tell you that as long
as within the guideline range he loses
his ability to appeal uh the sentence
and so so that was it so I caught the
Tango King but then there's this weird
little epilogue to the story so years
later you know that was '96 we get you
know I be my I become an adult in the
FBI my voice changes I begin shaving
right and um 911 happens I get on a
terrorism financing Squad I'm doing like
you know important kind of big Global
cases and and I and one day my my phone
rings at my desk I'm like FBI special
agent Simon here and it's this voice on
the other end of the phone going he's
here he he's here I'm like I'm sorry
who's this what's what are you talking
about who's here what who is this it was
the banker Gilberto granados Lopez had
gotten out of prison done paid his debt
to society and then gone to the bank to
try to withdraw his Social Security
money I had never told the banker we
caught him he had kept my business card
for nearly a decade at that point
waiting for the Gilberto granados Lopez
to come in so I could go arrest him like
I promised I would I was like sir I am
so sorry I uh he I caught him years ago
he's already served his prison sentence
as far as I know that's his money please
you know give him what's his thank you
so
much very interesting right
like so what are your I thought you were
I thought you were going to say he died
in jail I was going to be like a he died
a few years later he was a old fell so
what do your co-workers say when you cop
yeah do you did you go back to the guy
and say hey well you don't want to spike
you don't want to spike the ball um I do
it became a very fun story that I've
been telling for nearly you know 30
years at this point and people knew I
had done it and it it I think it may
have cemented my reputation with some of
the supervisors that I can bring some
creativity to the
job that's no good I need to go to I
need to do a whole in your face
bro it's better to it's better to act
like you've been here before you know
act acty just do my job yeah just doing
my job so anyway so that's the story of
the Tango King do you have any others we
got a POS you have any other Financial
crime all right so here's a fun story
that I think your uh your viewers might
enjoy so many many years ago there feel
bad for Lopez like the poor L don't feel
bad for Lopez he's a bad guy in the
story I'm the I honestly kind of forgot
what he did no he he was trying to
extort $50,000 from a children's charity
he was trying to rip off a children's
charity that was helping out like widows
and orphans in the Mexican American
community of Chicago he was a bad guy in
story
he probably he probably sweet old man he
might have did a surgery or something
nothing sweet about this old man there
was nothing sweet about this old man he
sounded very sweet when he came and then
he wanted to call he wanted to swing by
the ballroom to make sure like you know
he seems I mean he was deceived by me
but he wasn't a sweet man he's a bad guy
your your empathy for bad guys
isett it's
appalling hey real quick just wanted to
let you guys know that we're looking for
for the podcast if you think you'd be a
good guest or you know somebody do me a
favor you can fill out the form the link
is in our description box or you can
just email me directly email is in the
description box so back to the video
okay all right so P I don't know if you
remember we're going back in time a
little bit not not not as far as that
one there was a bestselling book that
became also a bestselling Netflix video
called The Secret do you remember that
yeah the secret oh god what the author's
name Rhonda Barrett or something like
that horri somebody made read like a
couple chapters yeah it was like like
Dum Dums all across the world really
fell in love with this book and the the
author was on Oprah and the idea behind
the secret is that if you want something
in your life whether it's success on
YouTube or whether it's money or a
husband you don't have to do anything
for it all you need to do is think about
it and concentrate about it manifest it
well right now we call it manifesting
with all the dumb Dums on Tik Tok who
were into this but that was before this
was before that anyway and this book was
a massive bestseller like could not have
been a bigger bestseller and when then
Oprah like supercharged it when she had
the author on the show yeah it was
like it was like 15 pages and it was
Tiny it was like this big you know what
I'm saying it wasn't a each page had you
know a 100 words on it a couple
platitudes about like every morning like
you know like write write the word money
and stick it on your mirror and look at
at every money and money will find you
you know stuff like that like you know
it's absolute horeshit and so so the
Secret's this giant bestselling book and
so there was a fellow in Chicago who was
sort of not Chicago there was a fellow
in Honolulu where I was working at the
time as an FBI agent named Albert
Perkins and he had a brainstorm he had a
brainstorm that he was going to um go on
like he was going to become a
motivational speaker and he was going to
talk about how he was going to offer an
investment program based on the tenants
in the book The Secret and uh and so he
ended up advertising this I you learn
the secret uh and he brought in some of
the PE some people who were on I guess
it was a video version of The Secret
that it was a DVD at the time that was
on Netflix and stuff like that where
some of the people who were like were
the selfhelp actors or no so self-help
gurus who were quoted in the book The
Secret um made a video in fact most
people probably actually saw the video
and never actually read the book um in
modern times but um he brought in some
of those people to give speeches about
all this nonsense but he made himself
the headliner and in his is and he fills
the blazedale arena kind of the big
basketball stadium in in Honolulu with a
bunch of you know people from Hawaii who
wanted who were into this secret
nonsense and wanted to like learn like
how to manifest money in their lives and
he said that he had this investment
company called Synergy
cnrg where he could take your money and
invest it in using kind of the secrets
from the book The Secret and make you
astronomical rates of return and uh not
a lot of people fell pretty sure that's
how Warren Buffett did it yeah yeah not
a lot of people and he said he had these
contacts that could give uh that get
certificates of deposit from uh from
other from like obscure banks that would
pay astronomically High R rates of
return you know 18 to 20% a year and uh
and if you would give him the money he
would use the secret and make you rich
not a lot of people fell for it but
seven families did and gave him $3.6
million oh my God like that's ridiculous
from Seven victims that's a ton yeah I
mean I think one of the victims was good
for about like 2.5 million of that and
other people were just giving hundreds
of thousands of dollars to him uh but
only seven families and um and you'll be
surprised to learn that he took that
money and mostly spent it on himself he
bought some Corvettes with the money
that I ended up seizing as the
investigation was unfolding soz I'm
looking at that's a lot of Corvettes 3.6
is a lot of we're getting to we're
getting to part two of the story and so
so he he bought some Corvettes he SP
spent a bunch of money on himself he
paid down his credit card debt cuz I
think he had some credit card debt at
the time and uh and and he was mostly
and I think he established an office for
his company Synergy because he thought
this is what was going to catapult his
investment company into something like
really big right but there was no actual
investment activity taking place and um
I remember going and taking his Corvette
from him that day and uh and he ended up
pleading guilty uh to the fraud I I got
a warrant to seize this Corvett he pleed
guilty but what was interesting about
this case is that $1.2 million of the
3.6 million he did invest in a Ponzi
scheme run by a different guy so a
scammer invested in a Ponzi scheme right
so he rips off his people with the
secret scam meanwhile there was a fellow
by the name of Patrick Ruta
nahari okay rolls off the tongue yeah
Patrick Ruta nanari was originally from
Madagascar and uh he was raised little
tiny little tiny country off the coast
of Africa it's vanilla is made I was
going to say I don't know anybody if you
if you putar if you have a bottle of
vanilla here or if you drink Vanilla
Coke that vanilla came from um from
Madagascar most likely there's also a
cartoon movie with singing and dancing
animals uh that I found out is not real
there's no actual singing and dancing
cartoon animals in the real Madagascar I
also know that Hinrich himler who was
the architect of the um architect of the
uh um what are they the Final Solution
World War II the Holocaust his yeah
Holocaust his one of his plans was to
move um all of the Jews to Madagascar I
doubt Madagascar was was made aware of
this but I don't think their opinion me
that was there's a lot of Master
planning going on back that was one of
his plans was like here's what we're
here's our one of the parts of the final
solution was hey let's move all all of
them over here right that's all that's
all I know so Patrick kukuch nahari uh
again born in Madagascar lived there as
a child but then immigrated to the US
and settled down in Fort Meers Florida
that's right down the road right down
the road a couple hours right down the
road um not that it's pertinent to the
story gay guy long-term relationship
everything was uh was copae but he
wasn't really lighting the world on fire
career-wise but then he had a brainstorm
his brainstorm was that he was going to
go to Hawaii and he was going to uh tell
people that he was a Forex
Trader and Forex for those of you who
don't know is foreign currency Trading
idea that I can trade dollars versus
yens versus euros and use the
fluctuation in prices between those
currencies to trade profitably and every
every single hedge fund that I know of
that has traded based on Forex very
successful Ponzi schemes yeah like I
don't think I've ever heard of a
successful one they every time somebody
says starts it off with you know I was
investing in forx trading I think it's a
Ponzi scheme bro and it always ends up
being a Ponzi I mean you know maybe I'm
wrong but but I have yes he of a
successful one right so Forex Trading is
a real thing but it's so hard to make
money doing it right the predicting the
fluctuations between currencies is just
it's very difficult right and even
people who are professional Forex
Traders have wild swings in their
success and failure Patrick had zero
experience in this it was all just kind
of aspirational to him maybe he read
some had he read the secret uh he had
nothing to do with the secret whatsoever
this was not his his Jam he probably
watched it a YouTube video on Forex
Trading and walked away feeling that he
he had this thing licked I can do this
but for reasons unclear to me um well he
he said that there that he wanted to he
was Mormon um and he wanted to Market
this thing to Mormons there's a sizable
Mormon population in Hawaii so what he
did so he was in a long-term homosexual
uh relationship and he's Mormon yeah
there's all kinds of conflicts here
going on I feel I feel like this was I'm
feeling for this guy he's going through
a lot and you know we'll see if we we'll
see if we can come up with a bad guy in
this episode that you don't have empathy
for okay and so so what he does this
kind of unusual he he takes out
classified ads in um in the uh in the
paper and other places I guess
advertisements in Honolulu and says he
was going to be setting up shop at like
the Sheran Ballroom there offering
seminars on how you can make money
through his company Cyber Market group
and uh in Forex Trading and so that
sounds like a scam and but he was
guaranteeing people 6% a week on their
investment that can't be a scam that's
perfectly reasonable 6% a week is really
really attractive to the people of
Hawaii they thought my my goodness my
ships come in and um so he goes to the
seminars he goes and puts on the
seminars pretty good crowds at at the
Sheran um explaining you know showing
them gra he had a PowerPoint set up with
like graphs and charts and made it look
very professional got vit talked about
his how and his deal was you're going to
you're going to invest the money with
him you're going to get 6% a week and
the money he makes above that 6% a week
he gets to keep right so it's costing
you nothing and and uh and there were a
hundred different Hawaii families who
signed up with the Cyber Market group oh
my God and gave him a total of $10
million plus the $2.5 from with the
single largest victim being Albert
Perkins Who was reinvesting the money
from the secret see albertt told me that
he thought it would all be okay cuz he
would be getting 6% a week and then he
then that's his real secret right is
that he was investing this money with
with Patrick at 6% a week Patrick for
his part had no idea that Albert Perkins
was ripping people off and didn't really
care uh he was just another victim in in
the in in his own scheme so we have
conmen con and conmen it's a fraud
within a fraud exactly so Patrick gets
his 10 million bucks in he goes back to
Fort Meyer
and he gets everybody's bank account
information do you know what he did then
he began paying people 6% a week on
their money that's not using a long-term
strategy using the money but what
happens is it begins to go viral right
oh okay yeah yeah yeah right Hawaii is
very much kind of an old school who you
know like let's talk to the other
parents at the Pop Warner football hey
come here I got to tell you something I
invested with this guy the whole thing
seem kind of fishy I only put 10 15
grand into it I've been getting 6% a
week wire transferred into my bank
account mhm and uh and then money more
money starts to flow into Patrick and um
and eventually though of course it
collapsed as they all do and then
Patrick begins offering excuses as to
why the he was unable to pay and he was
talking about the European banking
crisis and they always have some long
long long problem and everything's going
to be okay and then the phone starts
ringing at the FBI and I get assign both
cases and um and so Albert Perkins
toward the end of that case um uh you
know he was willing to call cooperate
against Patrick but he was just another
victim I had 99 other victims and um and
Albert Perkins had straight up lied to
his victims and so he pleads guilty
Albert Perkins ends up getting four
years and nine months I H on an airplane
from um from Honolulu fly to Fort Meyers
and uh unannounced knock on Patrick's
door and um and he invites me into his
kitchen I sit down and interrogate him
for about 45 minutes and walk out with a
sign handwritten confession from Patrick
that he was running this pon scheme no
excuses no um he thought initially or he
you know he'd done some uh some kind of
hypothetical trading online of of Forex
um I think he may have tried to trade
like a little bit of money and and he
just lost it immediately and realize oh
that's no good and uh this is much
harder than I thought yeah it's way
harder yeah and uh and then you know
it's like online poker right it's easy
when you're playing with the
hypothetical money but when it becomes
real money you find yourself losing
quite a bit and so he just thought it
could be sustainable as long as he
continued to pay people out and they
would bring new investors in and I told
him that's exactly the definition of a
Ponzi game and so he ended up pleading
guilty and he he got 7.5 years in prison
but then because he would never got
citizenship my understanding is he was
deported back to Madagascar a nation he
had not lived in since he was a little
kid oh my gosh yeah I knew a kid I knew
a guy who got deported back to Jamaica
who came here when he was like two does
know anybody in Jamaica and then when he
was like 19 or 20 he applied for his
citizenship like or 18 whatever it is
when you're allowed to you have to kind
of make your decision yeah he signs for
it and within I think like two months
before that he had robbed a bank and so
then he applies for a citizenship and
then a couple months later he gets
arrested and they're like in the on the
for it says that you have haven't
committed a felony
something along those lines they were
like and two months before you even
signed this you did yeah and so they
said so once you're finished you're
going back to Jamaica and i' see I see
him all the time he we like walked by he
like I don't know anybody in Jamaica I
don't know what I'm gonna do I know like
I'm sorry I don't know what to tell you
I think Patrick was the same way I don't
think he had lived in uh in Madagascar
since he was a little kid and I don't
know that he'd been back to like visit
Grandma or anything like that and so I
me but again I never really find out the
epilog on these guys they're not I'm not
on their Christmas card list after I put
them away tabs on them write a letter
and say hey how you doing yeah but that
was a massive case and and I met so many
people in that case and uh you know
because it was I was pretty new to
Hawaii at the time and so it got me out
there knocking on doors and uh and it
also kind of solidified my reputation
with the prosecutor's office there kind
of putting together this big case in an
organized fashion and you know the worst
thing about Ponzi schemes is that like
you know unlike like there credit card
fraud or you know some kind of little
like you're you you get the bank to lend
your money you know something stupid
like that like as opposed to that at
Ponzi schemes it's like it's well not
always sometimes they're institutions MH
but it's almost virtually all all um
individuals and it seems like it's
always individuals that can't afford to
lose the money right so it's not like
it's a it's a guy who's got 100 million
who puts 100,000 yeah these are people
like this is my life savings yeah there
was something about Hawaii and I would
don't want to disparage people from
Hawaii because they're wonderful people
but but finance and business and
investing is not one of the kind of it's
not it's just not one of the the
industries they cultivated right you
know they're they were good back in the
day with agriculture they're great with
hospitality they know a lot they're very
smart people and kind people but they
don't know anything you know as a whole
about finance and investing and so it
was really easy during the seven years
that I worked there as an FBI agent um
for people to come from the mainland and
just rip them off blind yeah and so
don't give me any ideas um yeah okay so
what uh okay so those guys are no good
they're gone they're gone they got a
jail though you they did they did and in
Hawaii's a small community and Albert
Perkins you know his family had gone to
the uh you know the Catholic church that
my kids were going to the school at and
people everybody knew him and uh and so
he lived about a mile and a half from me
and so it's it's such an insular
Community there that um um you got to
get to know these people what what which
which one what the what what do you even
do in Madagascar it's a big island yeah
it's big yeah but I just don't see he's
probably working in a vanilla Factory or
maybe or you know or I don't know if
he's banned from visiting every country
on planet Earth but he could go
elsewhere I suppose
yeah I still feel kind of bad for the
guy but anyway yeah scumbag I get it I
get it all right he probably with there
probably learn his lesson he may have
found God you don't know he could have
been be a totally different bir he
probably feels horrible he could have a
wildly popular podcast on youtube.
Madagascar he
could um okay so what what else have we
got what else have we got all right
let's let's go back in time again oh
these oh I see you had the combination
of these I love that they they inter
they uh are you know the one inside the
other yeah wi are fraud all right this
is a relatively small case but it was
kind of interesting the way it played
out um there was a back before there was
a big Bank in Chicago called First
Chicago Bank First National Bank of
Chicago which is now Chase but there
were several other iterations as Banks
continued to buy each other so this back
in the first Chicago days um got a call
I was on the bank fraud Squad and this
is still the '90s I believe got a call
from um from the bank saying we got this
crazy situation where a someone in our
wire transfer department you know wire
transferred
$250,000 out of a customer's account
without the customer's authorization can
you come and talk to this lady and so I
go and talk to the I they would all
often do that and have us get the
confession from their own employees
before they would like terminate their
employees so I sit this woman down and
um and we uh and and I get talking to
her and there's no way she did it like
it it was her log on on her computer but
she confesses to me that she let she
would never log off her computer when
she would go to lunch and so she
literally gets up goes to lunch and
doesn't log off and so there's this 1
hour window of time where the um where
where her computer's unguarded and
another employee and evidently hopped on
the computer and wire transferred
$250,000 out of a customer's account and
uh um and so we begin taking a look at
like who who went to lunch at different
times and cameras in different places
and we narrow it down to a woman by the
name of taana Roberts that she was the
she had to be the one who hopped on now
the money ended up going into a bank
account at a different bank 250,000
bucks and I feel like if you can't get
the if you can't get the a mug shot of
this woman I I feel like you can pick a
black woman she was she was
africanamerican I do have her mug shot
true completely irrelevant to the story
because there's lots of good
African-Americans out there I'm saying
there's not I'm just saying in fact how
dare
you so toana um toana wire transfers 250
Grand but here's what's interesting so
it goes to an account that had been
established the day before with a $100
like minimum deposit like someone
establish the account the next day
$250,000 gets wire transferred into the
account and then a uh a a fellow uh the
account was under the name of Karan
Smith c a r r a n z Smith I feel like
this may have been planned and uh you've
done this before and so he um and so as
soon as the wire transfer comes in um um
caran Smith shows up to withdraw
$250,000 and the teller who had been
properly trained said said you know
what's going on here and he said well
I'm I sold a car and she goes you sold a
car for $250,000 I mean a house he had
no good answers and eventually he gets
nervous and leaves so the money was
recovered right right because because
the guy who was receiving the money this
Karan Smith was a fool and uh and and
and so was the person that set the whole
thing and we had like an amazing picture
of like Karan Smith staring into the
camera of the uh posted above the teller
as if it had never occurred to him that
there may be cameras in the bank so just
an awful awful plan from day one uh
toana Roberts uh um I think she lawyers
up decides not to talk at all and um
yeah that's right she didn't talk to me
and so and and and meanwhile we have
this Karan um Smith and we need to kind
of prove that up and so is that real
real name like you produced real ID
Illinois driver's license and then Karan
Smith I look into Karan Smith and we got
a problem on our hands cuz Karan Smith
at the time was in prison for beating
his wife to death with a hammer feel
like this might not be the same guy
right and uh and so are you suggesting
that it's possible to get the DMV to
issue a driver's license and someone El
to someone else in 1998 it this things
these things could happen yeah insane
and uh but we had we had a picture of
the guy you know there and uh and so I
go to the prison I thinking well he's
not picking Karan Smith like randomly
and maybe Karan Smith knows this guy or
whatever so I go to the prison and uh
and and I'm you know I'm 27 28 at the
time and and uh and I had never met
anyone who beaten their wife to death
with a hammer that seemed like a pretty
significant crime and you hadn't been
how long had you been married at this
point funny year and so yeah give it
some time yeah yeah now it all makes
perfect sense but at the time I found it
shocking to the conscience I hear you
Karan I hear you I'm put some money on
your books when we when I leave and so I
have no idea what kind of reception I'm
going to get from Karan and so you know
me and my partner are kind of like led
into like a a room at the prison at the
prison to sit down with Karan and and I
said Karan listen I wanted to talk to
you about about something it seems that
someone has used your identity to steal
$250,000 from a bank and I was to fully
expecting him to tell me to go to hell
right and like you know I don't talk to
the FBI go to hell he was so offended
that someone would ruin his good name by
stealing his identity like how dare
somebody be smch the good name of Karan
Smith and so and so he's like why I I
can't believe anyone would do this and
so I show him the photo of the
surveillance guy staring up at the
camera you know Jimmy bald
African-American guy right and he starts
laughing Karan starts laughing and I go
do you know who this is and he goes yes
and no I could and I go get out of jail
no he wasn't playing Let's Make a Deal
really and I go what do you mean and he
goes it's one of two guys they're twins
who live next door to me uh when I was
arrested and uh
and they're Ron and Rick and he goes
they're both crackheads he called them
Hypes they're twin Hypes and I go what's
a hype and he goes a crackhead I go okay
and uh and so and I goes and you you
don't know which one it is he goes no
but they live next door to me um you
know one of them probably went in my
house and kind of like stole my
when I got arrested and uh and you and
then they went out and got an ID in my
name and he goes but I can't tell you
which one it was cuz Ron and Rick look
exactly alike you know bald
African-American guys with mustaches and
beards I pulled up a Ron and and I
pulled up both of their driver's license
photos and sure enough these guys were
identical twins in every way shape and
form and so and uh so I thank Karan so
much U oddly could not have been a nicer
more polite guy well I mean again you've
been in prison I have not I had uh I had
I had my own biases and prejudices
against people who beat their wives to
death with a hammer I know you're
willing to look past things like that
did you did you put some money on his
books nothing did he did he get anything
for helping I mean he seemed you know
like he led you in the right direction
he got his good name cleared my
God he got his good name cleared poor
guy yeah and so um so I began looking
into it and he's a widower you have no
sympathy for that mhm and uh and it
turns out it had to be Ron uh because uh
the other the other steuart brother was
in uh in rehab at the time so I'm
basically able to eliminate it by who
was who had the availability there go to
Ron Ron confess diam out toana agrees to
testify against toana in exchange for
whatever deal we were going to give him
and uh and that was enough to make toana
plead guilty
herself this just seems like such a fun
job you know you get to walk around you
get to talk to interesting people you
get to you know I would love that job it
was fun and I mean and uh she only got
18 months yeah I was say I don't think
he was probably facing much of anything
either yeah I I I think Rick I rick may
have just gotten probation or something
like that because I mean there was it
was Tech everything keys off the dollar
amount of the loss there's an
interesting question here was there a
loss in the case potential loss the bad
guy well the the loss came when the
money left for Chicago bank and went to
Lal bank right and so and that account
holder was out 250,000 bucks for you
know a day or two or whatever and so you
know but I think the courts took a look
at this and realized that this was a a
kakami scheme and that it doesn't make
sense for the taxpayers to be paying for
the care and feeding of this this idiot
crew right
but uh yeah but so it but I learned
something from that case that that
people who commit like objectively
heinous crimes like beating their wives
to death with a hammer aren't
necessarily horrible people when you
talk to them right right which it seems
self-evident now having done this for 30
years but at the time I was a very young
agent and I had my biases and prejudices
assuming that if someone is a bad guy
it's like the Marvel Comics where there
a villain all the time yeah yeah and
right no no they have people that love
them and they love and they had a a
moment of you know of insanity or
whatever you know and that's when I
began kind of developing My Philosophy
which I use for interrogations even to
this day is that no one should be judged
but for the worst thing they did in
their lives right and I tell people that
and I and and and I and I get them to
talk to me and build empathy with them
so they'll confess to me that listen you
know just because you did this horrible
thing doesn't make you a horrible person
we're all just circumstances victims the
circumstances of Our Lives
sorry I'm so
sorry can't all I can think about is
that guy go going going to trial and his
his lawyer saying we just need one
married guy on the
jury you're going to
walk I'm sorry oh you're you're an evil
man okay um so okay
you know and I feel like you you you
probably showed up here thinking this is
going to be a serious talk no no no it
is a fun show I I love I love going on
the show and uh and and interacting with
you so anyway so that's the story of
toana Ricky in Karan so I want to tell
you a story please I have um I have a
buddy named John
boak
who uh
when um uh Nancy Pelosi's husband got
attacked by the crazy guy with the
hammer yeah yeah insane so you know and
and you know we have a he and I have a
dark sense of humor not that I'm saying
that that's right clearly once again a
hammer story yeah um it's the Hammer
episode so so um you could put a little
Hammer somewhere in the thumbnail anyway
um so yeah so it we were you know and it
was completely inappropriate
inappropriate we he and I were making
jokes when we heard about it we were
like oh my god um and then there were
all these different stories on what had
happened you know with the guy attacking
him and why was how did he get there and
did he get inside and it was a whole
thing so what happened so some guy
showed up at Nancy Pelosi's house and
her husband was there and he somehow or
another forced himself into the house I
probably have this wrong but but he
attacked him with a hammer yeah and
apparently he was you know he was
bludgeoned you know what I'm saying he
was hit a few times but he ends up
getting a hold of the ham or whatever he
fights him off whatever no he gets a
hold of the police and he call Paul
Pelosi is able to contact the police who
show up to the house and there's this
weird scene where where Paul Paul Pelosi
like answers the door with the hammer
guy next to him like grabbing holding
like Paul Pelosi's arm and having a
hammer down at his side and that's how
we know about this because we have
police body cam footage and the
interaction between Paul
Pelosi and the Poli Paul Pelosi was a
cool customer because he's telling the
police like I don't know who this man is
and he's in my house and he has struck
me with a hammer he's being very and
meanwhile the other guy's just standing
there like holding his forearm with like
a hammer in his hand and the police are
like why don't you gu guys let you know
you know why don't you step outside sir
and so and the cops ended up arresting
The Lunatic and uh but it fed into all
these online conspiracy theory guys that
Paul Pelosi was involved in some kind of
like love trist with this guy and uh and
all that but there's no evidence of any
of that the whole thing was just this
bizarre story because when people are in
like impossibly weird stressful
situations they don't act normal and
Paul Pelosi wasn't acting normal when he
answered the door for the police
officers he was entirely like he was
very composed which is probably how he's
lived his entire adult life as he know
how else to act as the you know as the
husband of kind of a head of state and
uh is that you just sort of need to be
composed and people are going to say
horrible things to you and uh and stuff
like that you just kind of keep your
cool and be professional the guy was
actually he must have been mental right
like I mean he kly didn't want to kill
him he had dude was a lunatic but Paul
Pelos is like standing there in his tidy
whes or something like that when the guy
comes there so the whole thing looked
weird well before we really knew what we
were still in the in the um uh you know
the conspiracy theory stage like this
like that like it had just happened like
that morning or something but that night
and all these things so Bak goes and he
goes I'm raising money for this guy I'm
getting him a lawyer I'm GNA set up a
crowdfunding I go no you're not yes I am
and he sets up a crowdfunding and they
take it down immediately you know
immediately sh he said yeah they said
something about I mean we're laughing
and joking and I'm like I don't think
you can do that he was I'm going to give
him the money he I'm like I'm not
pocketing the money CU we started
talking about that couple there was a
couple who had raised money for like a
homeless guy who was a veteran I think
because the veteran guy had helped the
woman or something I don't know and then
they pocketed almost all the money sure
and uh he was like I'm not pocketing the
money so we were laughing but they shut
it down immediately crowdfunding really
does lend itself to
because there's just not a lot of
accountability and and just because you
know GoFundMe or or what's what are some
of the other big what Kickstarter or one
of those things is out there you know
putting it on there it's not really an
endorsement that this is a legitimate
effort to make this thing happen right
and so I worked a case against a guy
named Dan Summers and he had a brilliant
crowdfunding idea which which I don't
even know that it was really going to be
a fraud from the beginning but it
certainly turned into one he his company
was realy evest and the idea was that he
was going to create a
crowdfunding website for people who
wanted to invest in small real estate
projects so okay so here's the example
so let's say you want to build um build
an old folks home with with 20 beds okay
right and you get it all specked out and
it's going to cost you $20 million to
kind of build this facility and the
banks are just not into giving you the
money because you maybe you don't have a
good history with that maybe your credit
is not great and uh and you have a
felony for being in fraud uh in prison
for bank fraud no judgment here Matt no
judgment and uh and so the bank's not
excited to give you the money and so
what you're going to do is you're you
like hey well I have an idea I'm going
to crowdfund this and pay off pay a
really good rate of return to my
investors who are going to give me the
$20
million and so the idea was that Dan
summers's realy evest site you as a real
estate developer will put the put your
site up there explain the project and
say that you're going to pay out 10% a
year on this investment the idea would
be once the building is built you would
then pay back pay everybody back and
then refinance it now that you have an
actual building that can be used as
collateral that seems reasonable totally
reasonable there's nothing wrong with
that plan and so but the problem was
this so there's a lot more people out
there wanting money than there are
people who are interested in investing
in real estate through crowdfunding so
so you put your you put your thing up
there for the 20 million bucks you let's
say you raise 1 .6 million of that and
but there's a deadline on all these
crowdfunding things you know you have to
and so people actually send their money
in through wire transfers to realy evest
who's supposed to hold that money in
escrow and if it does not if that
doesn't hit the 20 million doll funding
goal everyone's supposed to get their
money back right make sense yeah and so
the and very few of these projects were
ever fully funded again because there's
tons and tons of people wanting money
but not a lot of people interested in
inves in in real estate using this
platform and realy evest was going to be
getting a piece of the action you know
you know 1% 2% whatever whatever their
percentage was of the amount of money
raised so they only let's say they only
raised a couple million dollars on your
$20 million project what Dan was doing
was was creating the illusion that that
project had fully funded so and keeping
the money for himself right right so the
real estate developer gets nothing of
the couple million dollars that was
raised he's told I'm sorry your project
didn't get funding we're taking you down
the investors are led to believe that
the investment did in fact fund and they
need to be getting their 10% you know
say 12% a month they get their one 12% a
year so they get one then then he begins
paying people out um 1% per month on the
money that he ra on you know for the
real estate investment the problem is
there's no actual real estate happening
it's just a Ponzi scheme it's a Ponzi
scheme right and uh and so he brings
in U $740,000
um doing that and pays out some you know
pays out some amount but the but and
then it begins to collapse and and and
and then the investors start calling the
FBI and I get the case and the um and
the C and basically and so I I ended up
interviewing all of the real estate
developers who had done done nothing
wrong and they're like hey I wanted to
build an old folks home for 20 million
bucks I put it up there it didn't hit
its funding goal you know I went away
they had paid like Dan a couple thousand
bucks to get even the listing on the
website so Dan was enjoying that money
but there's that's not that's not a
fraud and uh and so and then you talk to
the investors were like is weird no I
thought I was invested in ABC uh the you
know Matt Cox's retirement home and uh
and and realy evest was going to be the
conduit for the payments back to the
investors and for everything all money
would flow through them perfect cuz he's
the middleman he's able to right and so
the in ERS had no relationship and did
not know and never spoke to the real
estate developers if they had this whole
thing would fall apart right and so I
was I end up bridging that Gap and
interviewing all the victims and then
interviewing all the real estate
developers one of the victims I'll tease
you was a very famous Fox News host uh
whose name I'm not going to give out on
the air because he's a crime victim and
deserved compassion and uh is he is he
is he supposed to show up for um uh to
prison in July on July 1st I have no
comment I have no comment a Fox News
host and uh and so he that was what I
think was he a fox that's who are you
thinking of um I was thinking of uh um
he does the war room um uh not Sean
Hannity I'm thinking the other guy he he
was on Trump's uh in Trump's cabinet um
come on Fox News host no he he was I was
I thought Fox he's been on steveann
Steve Bannon yeah Steve Bannon was never
a Fox News host yeah yeah but he's I'm
saying he was on Fox News that's why as
soon as you said Fox News I thought I
could see him he does the war room now I
actually do I do I've been on the War
Room like 20 times okay yeah where he
interviews me for spots for home title
lock but I it's not going to be
happening for a a while yeah um yeah
he's only supposed to go for like four
months like as soon as he gets there
they're going to put him in half for his
contempt of congress yes yeah that's
yeah he's got bigger problems though in
New York for his uh build the wall scam
oh
yeah yeah yeah boy I bet he's pray and
Trump gets in there he's like well Trump
pardoned him for those federal charges
and then then New York came and said
well guess what we have lots of victims
in New York and their New York charges
nothing he can do that's still awaiting
trial and uh so yeah anyway but uh sorry
my my Victim in this case had nothing to
do with Steve Bannon okay to be clear
and uh and so anyway so now I have a
this great case I got a $740,000 case uh
you know maybe a couple dozen victims
you know one kind of high-profile guy
and so it's time to talk to Dan Summers
so I show up at his office and um and I
sit down with him and uh and he and his
whole thing was he would not admit it
was a Ponzi scheme and I was like well
and I go to be clear you were paying off
investors with their own money and the
money of other investors right and he's
said yeah you know I that's what it came
to and uh and I go how is that not a
Ponzi scheme right and he's like well
the the the the real estate projects
didn't fund had they funded I would have
paid everyone off so I was just you know
trying to get every make pay people
their investment returns I said but
there's no investment and so we went
round and round it had to be like two
hours and then I say stop Dan I'm and I
go I I can tell you just don't like me
calling it a Ponzi scheme but it has all
the elements of that and I go can we
agree that if you could go back in time
and do this whole thing differently if
you had a time machine you wouldn't do
this because what you were doing was
misleading the investors and I go you
may have been misleading the investors
for all the right reasons because you
thought there'd be some project that
would come in that make would make it
all right but you did that he goes yeah
yeah I did and I go okay then we're
talking about the same thing here and I
go if you don't want to call it a Ponzi
scheme that's fine we can set that aside
uh fraud yeah so what I want what I want
to do is just let's talk about the
specific conduct that happened and uh
and and help me understand why it
happened so I could take that
information to the prosecutors and maybe
even later the judge and they can
understand the situation you're in and
and uh and so you almost make it seem
like your Alpha and so why don't you
begin by let's take this statement here
and let's edit it to make it accurate
and so we sat down shoulder-to-shoulder
and we crossed out the word Ponzi and
wrote the word investment and we wrote
the word this and we we to crossed out
the word lie and wrote led the investors
to believe uh this this information that
was something different than the truth
and so you edit it and then he was nice
enough to sign the confession at the
bottom I thanked him very much and uh
and then went back to the office and
walked out went to the grand jury and uh
inded inded him with his own confession
when he walked out he probably I feel
feel very good about this we had aort
feel good like we've done some good work
here Tom right but the point is that
that this guy didn't set out to run a
Ponzi scheme right this guy set out
because he had some great business idea
and in his mind it would have been just
fine if if millions of investors had
come in to invest millions of dollars in
all these real estate projects and he's
just taking a little taste and it
probably would have had it worked out
like that but I mean did he admit that
like I kept the money like I should
given them the money back I was I told
them they would get the money back if it
didn't completely fund right no no there
was no question about the facts of the
case he just never saw himself as a
criminal as a p as as a Ponzi schemer
right this guy had no criminal history
you know he's he a nice guy had had you
know his wife was you know he there
grandparents and all that but he had all
these investors you know who lost
740,000 bucks that he was unable to pay
back because he had told them something
different than the truth right so what
what happened well he he dragged his
feet a long time like he's going to go
to trial and um and and and and I I was
like I kept telling the prosecutor I'm
like figure out a way to get through to
this guy through his attorney of course
and let him know that we are not out to
get him I don't have a hard on for Dan
Summers but but we're going to minimize
the damage to his life if he takes a
plea deal versus going to trial and
getting red raped over the coals on this
thing and um and the and the prosecutor
um was was unable to get through to the
defense attorney who was unable to get
through to Dan like he just was trial so
he so we're headed for a trial and then
I find this and then I find a bunch of
evidence that was provided to me by a
we'll call it a cooperating witness in
the case that Dan's wife was helping to
facilitate this that she was aware of it
as kind of the in internal accountants
and secretary and she had never been on
my radar screen on this thing we're
going to indict the wife so what I did
was I showed up at Dan's house he was
represented so I couldn't interview him
with a Target letter for his wife and a
Target letter is basically a letter from
the uh US Department of Justice saying
um saying you know you know you were now
a target of a federal investigation you
are soon to be indicted we recommend
that you hire a criminal defense
attorney and have them get in touch with
the prosecutor on this case to see if we
could work this thing out prior to the
indictment and I showed up at Dan's
house he answers the door he's very
surprised to see me I said here's a
Target letter for your wife can you give
this to her he's like what do you mean I
go well you know I'm not supposed to be
talking to you cuz represented but but
your wife needs an attorney cuz she's
going to be indicted on this and she's
going to be sitting next to you at the
trial as a codefendant and he's like is
there anything I can do to make this go
away and I said well I'm not I'm not the
one to negotiate please I'm just the
investigator but why don't you have an
conversation with your attorney and
perhaps your attorney can have a
conversation with the US Department of
Justice prosecutor and you know maybe
then they you guys can work it out but
I'm not a party to that I'm just the
investigator in the case here's this for
your wife a week later he's in
court guilty and the wife never got into
indicted it's funny how often that
happened and he ended up getting 21
months in prison 21 he probably could if
he because he probably he didn't get
acceptance of responsibility well he did
we gave it to him even though he waited
till the last minute again no nobody
really was out to see a public hanging
of this guy and in our minds the most
important thing was to get him back out
in the street so he could begin paying
restitution to his victims that was that
was not my experience with the uh us
attorney at all I weren't concerned get
me back on the street at all but he also
21 months like honestly for
750 I guess that I mean I guess that
falls into the guidelines but guidelines
yeah usually these guys cooperate so
they'll get less than that like for
seven like I always tell people like
look you basically steal a million
dollars and go to jail for like a year
right if you cooperate one thing to
understand about Ponzi schemes that
they're very unique in the world of
Fraud and calculating the sentencing
guidelines let's jump back a little bit
because maybe not everybody in your
viewers are familiar with the sentencing
gu for fraud your sentencing guidelines
key off of like three or four main
factors one is your criminal history do
you have a criminal history and then
you're get into a different bug he did
not two is the amount of loss how much
money um was were victims ripped off for
uh the next one that they want to see is
how many victims was this a mass
marketing scheme with hundreds of
victims or there's one or two victims
then there's a lot of smaller categories
that go into the sentencing guidelines
calculation more than minimal planning
acceptance of responsibility meaning you
plead guilty um so sated means
sophisticated means where they're
vulnerable victims things like that and
so with with Ponzi schemes it's kind of
funny and there's case law on this he
received $740,000 from investors but
he's also paying fake investment returns
along the way so the net loss to the
investors um ends up being his in ends
up being more like 400,000 okay and the
Supreme Court has ruled that the number
has to be the $400,000 number that the
sentencing guidelines key off of even
though he accepted $740,000 under false
pretenses from investors okay how when
did that change because you because I
remember in my case they were trying to
say like well there's there's potential
loss you know like there's of that's
that's an entirely different fact
scenario than a Ponzi scheme Ponzi
scheme is just a very specific kind of
fraud because a Ponzi scheme you're
actually paying investment returns to
your victims right right right the
problem is are not being derived from
any income producing activity and
they're really being done as a marketing
technique so the victims will tell other
people and uh but what's also intering
is that some people make money on pzi
schemes right if you're an early
investor and let's go back to the other
if you're an early investor in this and
you're and you're making you're getting
high investment returns you could get
more money back than what you put in but
you don't get credit for that in the
sentencing guidelines for get getting
people money that ends up being a zero
not a um doesn't net out against the
losers
and Bernie made offs there was some guy
who had put in half a million dollars
and gotten out like 15 million over the
years or something was ridiculous right
so that so you don't so Bernie manof did
not get a reduction in his sentence for
the money that people made in the Ponzi
scheme but that guy when you're
Computing his numbers in the Excel
spreadsheet that I put together hundreds
of in my career he would be a zero loss
toward Bernie's um sentencing guidelines
well I was also he they what also
happens is they turn around and they go
back to those guys and say the money you
got was illegal we need it back try and
Claw it back I never did clawbacks but
but I've seen situations where the
investors just Sue each
other oh okay like hey this guy made
money I lost money that was that was not
investment returns going to him it was
my money uh and then they end up suing
each other and doj sort of has no dog in
that fight but I've never gone to a
victim and try to claw money back from
them I don't know that that happened in
made off you think it did I I think it
did I know that I've met guys um where
that the what do they the person they
put in charge of getting all the money
back what's what they call this well us
probation is generally the no no I mean
like the arbitr what do they where they
sell off the assets and oh the um man
trustee bankruptcy trustee like there's
another name but yeah I I so they put
this guy in charge he's usually a lawyer
he starts selling off the assets and
then he finds out okay well you made 15
million like you put in 500,000 but you
made you know whatever 15 like you ow
half you know million dollars and then
so this guy in this one picture well
actually there's a few of them but I've
heard this before sometimes the people
just don't have it and so they're not
going to throw you in jail because you
made money like it's a civil judgment
right and then other times they'll go to
him and they'll NE and this actually
this one guy that I'm talking to the uh
the guy in prison about he was like that
guy negotiated like he negotiated where
like I'm not going to pay you I can't
pay you all the money back I don't have
the money I here's what I can pay you
and he actually negotiated and paid him
like4 or5 million like or we can we can
go to trial or we can argue in civil
court and you try and get the money but
even then you might just get a judgment
like I'll pay this much and so they he
was negotiating with the government to
get the money back for the victims where
he was saying look I'm a victim too if
you do this to me now you're make
creating a victim you I'm being
victimized you know um but uh but yeah I
guess most of the time most there's just
no money you know what I'm saying
there's it's gone it's spent I mean
you're selling off the assets and you
get you get Pennies on the dollar back
and these people just don't ever get
their money back yeah uh so okay um yeah
that's that's pretty much that story of
Dan Summers uh I don't know what he's
doing now he's probably out of prison by
now and uh that was one of my last cases
because I remember I went to the
sentencing um you know right around the
time that I
retired um we had a guy on here um Jim
uh dioro and he was talking about how he
had arrested people he's like I
literally would be at dinner with like
my wife and see them and they'd walk in
they'd be like Dan you know oh no Jim
sorry his name was Jim dioro did I say
Dan Jim Jim dioro and they'd be like Jim
he'd be like remember me like yeah I do
how you doing he and I you know like
they're so happy and I get up and shake
their hands and be like how's it going
he go but it's funny like I've never
seen guy he had put in prison previously
like I guy in prison he when we got he's
like yeah I just got out like a year ago
or 6 months you know he did like eight
years he's like like he was a serious
Criminal
like I had inmates send me Christmas
cards from pris I mean are you serious
well that's the trick is it's not my job
to punish them it's my job to find out
what happened and quite often after they
send me the confession they say that no
one has ever been as kind to them as I
was and compassionate and willing to
listen and willing to understand what
they were going through in their lives
that led them to this crime and so they
don't go to prison hating me they go to
prison understanding that they were
treated respectfully I never lied to
anyone or about anyone and uh and so I
you know my criminal people always ask
me if I'm worried that you know about
criminals coming back to like murder me
it's just not a thing because I've given
them no reason to I I think most of the
guys that I've met so it's it's probably
two different things
one 80% of the guys think like oh the de
agent he hated my guts or this someone
he was a bad he lied or this or he's a
piece of garbage or he you know whatever
they they've got some Grudge but I'd say
maybe whatever 10 or 20% of the guys and
these always tended to be the guys that
were more that were that understood what
they did and were sorry for it and
legitimately just wanted to get out of
prison start their life over and that
had kind of humbled been humbled by it
and been like no man I you know I
probably shouldn't have gotten in 15
years but you know I did and to be
honest like everything didn't go the way
I was hoping it would during the
investigation I don't feel like this was
right and that's right but the truth is
they were pretty fair they were super
cool to me they were you know what I'm
saying they kind of go those are the
guys that and and so those are the guys
that typically had no ill will towards
the US attorneys or the or the agents
whether it was DEA ATF FBI whatever um
and then there were always the other
guys who you know hated them everybody
was this and and then they really never
really want to admit that they've done
anything wrong it was always the snitch
it was always the the DEA when they they
were playing dirty they were the and
they never really admitted like I was
breaking the law and I should go to
prison yeah so uh yeah it was it was
always interesting that their their
frame of mind because the truth is the
de agent was probably fine you know what
I'm saying like you you're you're
manifesting this government um you know
conspiracy against you to make yourself
feel better like you're a victim but the
truth is you know you were self it's a
hard pill to swallow for a lot of people
that they did something really really
bad yeah and so you know in my
interrogation techniques I I was try to
really get past that and say that you
know you are not defined by that bad
thing you did but let's talk about what
that was and uh and and what the
circumstances of your life that led you
to making that bad decision but you were
also for the most part dealing with guys
that had made one or two bad decisions
like not guys that are career criminals
that had been in and out of prison you
had some career comment and you know
every now and then but the but no for
the most part my guys were um you know
my guys were people who had run a single
scam very few frequent flyers right so
what are you doing now well I'm doing a
lot of cases as a private investigator a
lot of my cases right now are um are
fraud cases cuz that's sort of my thing
and where people have been ripped off in
a scam and I take the investigation as
far as I can I try to collect money from
the um the bad guy to get back to my
clients who are victims and uh and often
times I end up taking the case as far as
I can then shepherding it to the FBI on
behalf of my clients who are Crime
Victims now they have the ability to
call the FBI themselves but I believe I
have a knack for kind of putting these
cases together in an organized fashion
to try to sell it as almost a lobbyist
to my former colleagues at the FBI who
are just thrilled to get cases that I've
packaged up for them to work in these
frauds um but the other so a lot of
investment frauds and embezzlements kind
of go that way but I've been working
lately it seems there's been a huge wave
of romance scams you familiar with these
yeah yeah okay so and the victims always
tend to be senior citizens and so I got
a call from a senior citizen in
Jacksonville who said that she's uh um
you know she's fallen in love with this
guy and uh and he's like on his deathbed
in China and um and she needs to wire
him a bunch of money so he could get out
and they could be married even though
he's super wealthy himself his his
money's all tied up and I said and uh
and she wants me to check him out and
see if he's for real and I so and and so
I go to her house and she tells me the
whole story about meeting this guy
online and he's just sort of this
international Man of Mystery and he's
got this accent because he's German and
I said you sure it's not like Nigerian
she goes no no it's definitely German
and he German living in China and he
travels so much on business he was in
China and he was in the hospital there
and she's been sending money through
cryptocurrency going to these
cryptocurrency um these kiosks at gas
stations to uh putting cash in the there
to send money to the crypto wallet so he
could you know get the lawyer to get the
visa out or pay for the medical bills
and his money's tied up right now and he
can't get at it in China because of
trade issues and so she had given away a
sizable percentage of her fortune and
she sends me a picture of the guy This
Woman's like 75 and she get shows me a
picture of the guy um who she has never
seen herself they've only had phone
calls and text messages and stuff like
that and he he's like a young looking
like 49-year-old like white guy and uh
and I'm like and I'm like this guy's
supposed to be 60 something she goes
isn't he handsome for his age I said
yeah and so so but some of the money
that and so in this giant kind of
fictional so I'm saying I don't think
this guy real and I go but if you want
me to explore all this I'll Trace all
the phone numbers I'll um I'll find out
what happened but the she had sent money
to a a woman's name who was supposed to
be the her boyfriend's lawyer secretary
in Wy watchi Florida you know wiy watchi
yeah it's where the mermaid show is
Right a lot of bad people in Florida
involed I'm a licensed private
investigator in Florida so you go where
the cases are so and so she and and and
she goes this lady in Wii watchi is the
key to the whole thing so my client was
packaging up packages of cash and
sending it to a woman in Wii watchi
Florida under the sincere belief that
the woman in Florida was the secretary
for her boyfriend's attorney who's
trying to get him out of China so they
can live together boyfriend super
wealthy and she's like I know that
secretary will be able to give you some
idea about whether the whole thing is
legitimate and how we can get my
boyfriend out of China I and uh and so
you know I quoted her price and she paid
me and I get in a car and I drive to Wei
watchy Florida about four hours from
Jacksonville where I live do you get
excited when you're like do you are you
like what do you feel like don't you you
feel good about like you feel like you
know what's happening you feel like well
this case it's it's clear to me from
having investigated like a bazillion of
these that this is a romance scam so my
position at this point is can I get any
money back from my client and what
evidence can I do to stop the bleeding
to make it make it to convince my client
who is metaphysically certain that her
soulmate is lying in a hospital in China
and uh and and they just want to be
together I need to convince her that
this is nonsense she's been talking to
her boyfriend now for all of about 6
months as he's bleeding her dry
financially she's known me for about 6
minutes after she found me in a Google
Search right and so so I'm at a
disadvantage here as far as making the
case to her she wants me to go to Wii
watchy to interview this woman that
she's been sending money to um I do it
so I get in the car and I drive for 4
hours to Wei watchi and I get there and
it's a senior citizen trailer park I
knock on the door uh you know Bernice's
house and uh and Bernice comes out and
she's also like 75 years old curbers in
her hair it's like can I help you I
identify myself as a private
investigator and former FBI agent and
say that I'm
investigating um you know a gentleman by
the name of Hans so and so or whatever
his name was the name that the German
name that she was given and she's like
Hans Hans is my boyfriend and uh and I
said well I'd like to talk to you about
that and she said let me get dressed so
I wait I'm waiting outside the trailer
she gets dressed she invites me in she's
like a hoarder there's like stuff piled
from Florida ceiling and she tells me
the story of having met Hans the same
guy with the same phone number and same
email address on a website called Silver
singles like a a dating website for
senior citizens and um and she had given
him like her life savings with like an
entirely different story of he was
caught in like azerbijan or something
like that and there you know very
similar story but meanwhile the other
Hans and I go do you have a picture of
your Hans she pulls it out it's an
entirely different guy they used a
different photo for the Hans fictional
character for the weaky watchy lady than
the uh than the other lady so I take a
picture of her stuff I go why were you
receiving money from this other woman
and he goes he goes I was doing that for
hans's business she's a client of Hans
and so I was getting the cash then I
would take the cash to the bank and
deposit it in my account then I would
use the cash app to send cryptocurrency
to Hans in azerbijan uh because I've
been helping him out with his business
and uh and she goes but he's been doing
weird things and lately and having me
and and having me apply for tax refunds
for in states that I don't even live in
and so she's like like she's filing
taxes in Arkansas with fake tax returns
to get refunds that are going into to
her bank account that she needs to send
to Hans and so she's never met him
either no she's just she's just another
old lady wrapped around the axle and so
uh so I basically show her the the two
Hanes I explain what's happening with my
client I tell her that that the um that
you cannot send any money to this guy
this guy's not who he says he is it it's
likely to me that he's probably in China
India or Nigeria those are kind of the
three hot spots for these type of
romance scams and um and you just got to
stop sending money to them and now he's
not real none of this is real and so I
felt like I did a good job of
deprogramming her and then I go back to
my office I drive four hours back and I
write all this up in a report with like
the two photos the two hes the LI
comparing the two stories that the
ladies had and um and then I take it to
my client and I kind of lay it all out
for her and as like a a attorney making
my closing arguments and then she
finally got it and then I counseled my
client on that that the problem is that
once you actually pay money in one of
these Romance scams and show that You're
vulnerable to this you get on a list
that's like bought and sold on the
internet among these con artists and I
said the only way you're going to be
free of this burden is to change your
phone number and change your email
address and I go or else because those
things are right now compromised and so
that's a really tough thing for an old
person to do right because in their mind
that they think of their phone numbers
like like an old school landline like
that's how my family gets a hold of me
you know my my son who never calls me um
you know he has that number number and I
hear from them every Christmas and so so
you know I talked to her and eventually
she changed her phone number and changed
her email address and hopefully they've
been leaving her alone but she lost
hundreds of thousands of dollars the
lady in wikii watch he lost you know4
$50,000 but then she was also used as an
unwitting money launderer for other
victims and um and she's she's also
committing fraud by or tax fraud by
filing these taxes unwittingly yeah I
mean again she wasn't my client and I
wasn't taking money from her uh to solve
this mystery in her life but I did give
her a lot of free counseling about what
she can do to unwind this mess but uh
you know but these romance scams are
just like ripping and tearing through
the senior citizen community and it's
all just based on loneliness these old
lonely old guys and lonely old women and
the bad guys who are doing these frauds
again from Nigeria China India they're
they're they're going on to these senior
citizen dating sites and just creating
dozens and dozens of fake profiles to
rip grandma and grandpa off yeah there
was I I so the common one it used to be
where you would be contacted by somebody
in
Russia um you know young girl and and
they contact you on a dating website so
dating they use the dating apps then you
start corresponding before you know it
you know they're complaining about money
you're you then send them a little bit
of money and she's super hot right oh
she's gorgeous yeah I just had one down
in um I'm sorry I w't interrupt you one
down in Vero Beach same story it was the
the woman who was you know falling in
love with the 75-year-old guy was it was
Ukrainian and like insanely hot like
You' never seen a woman like this before
well I I so there there had been I
watched a program on this and then I I
actually read some stuff on it where so
what they did was and it was the same
thing every time you know and usually
it's just a guy it's some guy sitting in
Romania or somewhere who's got you know
he he's going online every day
approaching you know 80 different men
you know 30 40 or 50 of them are
responding um he corresponds with them
you know as a girl you know maybe every
day he's getting four or five that are
you know over the course of a week or so
so he's got 20 25 and then out of those
you know maybe five or 10 start sending
him little bits of money what happens is
eventually the scam is I really want to
come to the US I've saved this much
money towards the it's going to cost
$1,500 I've saved $ 750 but it's going
to cost me another take me another year
and of course the the American guy is
like I'll give you the other 750 oh I
know oh that's so sweet so nice but I
also I have nowhere to stay like I could
stay in a hotel or I could stay on you
know if you don't mind I could sleep on
your couch or you no you can stay with
me okay so he send 750 then she I got
the ticket I'm on my way she gets to
gets to um uh is going through
customs but she never shows up calls on
the phone I'm on
I'm in customs they will not allow me
into the United States because I don't
have the minimum amount of money they're
afraid I'm coming here to stay to work
when I told them I was just coming on a
vacation for two weeks and I need $1,500
can you wire me through Western Union
$1,500 and I'll give it right back to
you as soon as I walk get through
customs so he gives her another $1,500
so now he's giving her
$2,250 you know at a minimum and then of
course she never shows up and then he's
embarrassed so he doesn't call anybody
cuz he realizes it's a scam you know
sometimes doesn't even tell his buddies
cuz he's humiliated you know they're
like you're you're 40 50 60 you think
this 22-year-old Russian or Ukrainian or
whoever was going to and I had read an
article in wired where there was more
Western Union offices per capital in
some little town in
Romania where they had so many of them
and that's where all the wires were
going and all of these different um
Western Unions are owned by like
different Mobsters yeah so but it was
hugely profitable actually I want say
was it 60 Minutes or something who did
this huge thing on it and then I looked
into it I was like oh my God and then I
read an article I was like oh my God
yeah Western Union it's like
whack-a-mole they're trying to cut it
off in cash app for what it's worth that
they feel like it's a senior citizen
who's being ripped off they'll cut him
off the problem is these Bitcoin ATMs
have you seen these things're they're in
gas stations all America I haven't seen
one but I've heard about them right so I
did a study when I was an FBI agent I
can't get into too deep details about
what I did but I thought all right I'm
going to find out who's using these
Bitcoin ATMs and I thought I was going
to find like money launderers and dope
dealers and I was going to make a bunch
of big cases it was all monitoring the
activity of a Bitcoin ATM for like you
know six months time to see who's using
it and what dollar amounts to doing it
was all senior citizens who are being
ripped off cuz they're charging like 25%
off the top like the ATM fee for buying
Bitcoin you'd be a fool if you were in I
think all anyone who's into Bitcoin is a
fool but but if you're if you were GNA
if you were going to buy Bitcoin as an
investment or because you dig
cryptocurrency there's no reason to use
a Bitcoin ATM and actually start feeding
cash into it because they're taking 25%
off the top right and so all the victims
were just little old ladies getting
ripped off by frauds like it was 100% of
the usage um we had interiew I
interviewed a guy
right who was a guy he um he collected
money and well they they what they they
they um stack them with cash and then
they go and they get cash they goes
right so um or load them with cash so he
and he said there's this he there was
this one ATM machine that was a for a
Bitcoin he explained it to it's a
Bitcoin ATM blah BL I was like oh you
can get cash I was like oh okay he was
but I was getting the some was getting
the cash out he's like but they never
knew how much cash was in this thing
somehow or another and he worked for you
know Loom or something and so he was
like like I would go and i' give it to
them like they never like they would
never say hey go get this much they'd
say hey go find out how much is in the
machine tell us yeah and he said so I
kind of felt like they don't even have
any clue like it was they don't he's
like sometimes I'd get the money
sometimes I'd get and he did something
like he got some of the money gave it to
them they never questioned he left some
money something like that M and he felt
like honestly I don't think they know
how much money's in these things he goes
so one day I go and he stole what was it
10,000 10 or yeah like 10 grand took it
and then when they asked the when they
got the report he just said there was
nothing in the or maybe a thousand
whatever very little money there's
nothing in it he said so I took the
money he said I went on vacation with my
girlfriend we went down to Miami he said
I bought her boobs um went on vac spend
blew the money in like four or five days
right came got back to work and been
there for like a day or two and they
call him in the office and they
go what's what happened with such and
such he's like oh I don't know and like
what are you talking about they're like
look
really can't prove anything right this
minute but you know and we can't he said
something like we can't fire you but we
can make you so unhappy here you'll want
to leave and he was like they were like
or you just leave he goes oh I'll just
leave so he quit they never charged him
so then the the the video comes out I do
the video and then after I do the video
he starts he texts me and he's like hey
bro I've been thinking about this cuz
guys in the comments are like this did
this guy just admit to like fraud like a
bank fraud like he's like I you know
what I was never charged for this like
I'm a little worried about this and then
he he had us what we then we had to blur
out his blur his face started can you
get rid of my name can you blur out my
face can you he kept coming back you
know I was like look we can do this but
I was like I'm not going to take the
video down we had this conversation like
I told you I'm going to put the video up
you understand like ah they're not going
to do nothing they're not do nothing and
then once it came out there were so many
people in the comments saying is this
guy nuts he's going to be indicted yeah
um that he was like yeah bro can you
please please blur out my name can you
this can you that I like okay so we did
all that but yeah that's the first time
I heard about the uh those Bitcoin uh
machines yeah he clearly clearly they do
keep track oh I you'd be crazy not to I
mean they're owned by big corporations
at this point well I'm listening to them
thinking I don't know yeah it doesn't
seem like a good plan yeah but the the
senior citizens who fall for these
things it's interesting to me how how
they don't want to believe that they
were ripped off and uh and so what's
funny is that um I've had lots of
clients who are the sons and family
members of the victims of these Romance
scams are like listen my dad ripped he's
been sending money to a woman uh you
know in Ukraine that he thinks you know
his 30-year-old you woman can and they
won't listen to me can you go and so
I've gotten very good at doing an
intervention with the with the senior
citizens and kind of laying it all out
for them that this is a fraud which is
weird because I'm a stranger there's no
reason why they would believe me more
than their son or their brother or the
people in their lives that they've known
forever but they they do and well they
still remember when their son was eating
you know Clay he's I show up with a suit
and tie with my credentials and kind of
lay it all out for them and tell them
they've got to stop doing it and that
you know here's here's some of the
people who are committing these frauds
and that I've been investigating these
things for years and years and you got
to stop and here's we got to change your
phone number we got to change your email
address so they could stop getting a
hold of you and um yeah well I think we
talked about that like if you you're
more susceptible to fall for a scam
after You' fall in for a scam right oh
yeah exactly and that's why these lists
are so valuable these sucker lists um I
had one guy who um you know basically
deprogrammed him so he's not going to
give any more money it was this one was
a um a lottery scam but same same type
of idea where he was being told he won
the lottery needed to pay Advanced fees
to get the funds released and so I
deprogram him you know old guys this
guy's well into almost 100 years old and
uh and he's not going to talk to him
anymore take him to the Verizon store we
change his phone number bad guys cannot
get a hold of him the bad guys ordered a
pizza to his house and had the pizza
delivery guy hand their phone to him and
and say and then he's like yes and the
and it's his it's his buddy saying hey
this is I'm from the lottery we had to
deliver you a pizza because we couldn't
get a hold of you uh can we get your new
number and he gave them the new number
this poor Pizza they invested $12 on
like a you know a Little Caesars or
Domino's Pizza to go to this guy's house
um and deliver him a pizza and to hand
and told the delivery driver to hand the
cell phone over to them and uh so they
could begin manipulating him so we had
to start all over again oh my God yeah
it's so uh yeah it's s yeah I got a call
from a woman named Sally the other day
who had given up a bunch of money in an
investment a romance scam and uh and she
wanted to know if the guy was for real
you know same type of story he was a um
a sailor and he was in some other
country and he couldn't get out and I
said Sally listen I'm going to save you
the money this isn't real I've been
investigating these things for 30 years
it's just not real and she's like and
she's like how dare you how dare you say
this about my boyfriend you did no
investigating whatsoever and you're sure
he's not real I I'm 100% sure there's no
there's not a you know it doesn't make
sense for you to give me money to tell
you something that I can just tell you
for free right now and so she hung up on
my ear because I was such an a-hole to
her because I I be merged her
boyfriend's name even though she was
calling me because she wanted to have
this checked out yeah oh I mean next
time you say you know what this I cut me
a check for 3500 bucks I'll get right on
this it's always the ethical dilemma
right is that they want me to
investigate it I'm happy to investigate
it and kind of give them the evidence
like I did with the wey watchy case but
the um but if someone calls me and
something is just intransparent I'd feel
bad taking money from them just to tell
them what they already know the common
denominator in these romance scams is
the idea that the bad guy the the
boyfriend or girlfriend on the other end
has some excuse why they're not willing
to video chat with you right there's
always you know there there's sometimes
they'll do a video chat that'll last for
like 5 Seconds the lighting's bad and
all that there's some technological ways
to that the bad guys are now getting
past that but the as soon as someone
calls me and says well I've been seeing
guy that I met online overseas I go stop
have you had video chats with them
they're like no he works in a DOD
facility and he can't so so that's what
I that's the first thing I look for
because if you're going to be if you
truly have a soulmate in Ukraine and
she's that gosh darn good-look um you're
going to want to have as much FaceTime
with her on FaceTime as possible and and
so that seems to be the common
denominator and I think the bad guys are
looking at work around right now but
they're all pretty lame at this point
the the the problem is yeah I was going
to say the problem is the that I saw
something the other day I don't know
what Tik Tok or whatever it was a it was
where a like a vice president contacted
somebody in the bank and said I need you
to wire money out of this account to
here yeah and she said uh and she
thought right away this is fishy like
this is fishy like this guy you know
I've never spoken with him before he's
random like oh he is like the vice
president or whatever she goes you know
what she said I I'd like to talk to you
i' like you to come talk to me in person
he goes listen I can't I'm out of the
office I'm at the whatever at the home
office today he said how about we
FaceTime no no how about we do a zoom
call he said as a matter of fact he said
um he said something like like um I'm
going to go ahead and have like and he
named like two other people be on the
line too so you know I understand you're
questioning this I understand it's
suspicious I'll have them on the line
too so he has like two or three people
do a zoom with her that she recognizes
and he has a conversation with her and
none of them are real really what's he
using using a facial thing that you can
look like somebody and somehow or
another either they were also using it
he was definitely using it and she
recognized him and she wired the 250,000
or 200 whatever it was she wires the
money um now keep in mind I saw this on
like Tik Tock or that may have just been
a a those things
they're called business email compromise
cases what happens is somewhere along
the line you you know you click on the
wrong thing in your email and now your
emails compromised someone's reading
your historical emails and then they
assume the identity on you phone calls
or whatever it's social engineering at
that point to try to extract money from
the company with the Jacksonville
Airport Authority lost hundreds of
thousands of dollars in a case I worked
but the filter that's something new
that's that's new stuff and I've been
hearing that in my romance scam cases a
bit but it I think it's kind of fakey
looking at this point I don't I don't
know how good it is I don't know I mean
I I see them on Tik Tok and they always
mention it but you typically what it is
is it's just making you look better like
it's not you oh no that's not true cuz I
saw one the other day where the guy the
guy W it was um oh gosh he's uh he was
it's the the black actor that is in uh
Morgan Freeman he's great so the guy it
was a guy like a white guy as Morgan
Freeman talking to you as Morgan Freeman
and they show him side by side and it
was it was amazing they call them deep
fakes right it's going to make life very
difficult for the FBI and it's going to
provide a lot of ammunition for defense
attorneys when we have you know a
politician on camera taking a bribe and
they're going to say the FBI just deep
faked it to set of my guy you know who
you going to believe me or your own eyes
right um yeah I wonder you know I mean I
saw that Tik Tok I wonder how I wonder
if the story is real but but then I've
also seen all the other ones too I'm
like God I don't know like if it's not
real if some guy was telling the story
and it was
mhm it will be real soon yeah you know
what I'm saying I had one where um the
the hot chick on the other end of the
zoom ripping off the uh the old man was
wearing a covid mask the whole time
because she was you know so like her her
pictures were fantastic but but on the
video calls one of which I watched over
his shoulder I you think she's real
video caller right now she's got like a
covid mask on oh you could just see her
eyes and you know she was clearly not
the woman in the picture and uh and
there's no reason why she's wearing a
covid mask for a zoom
call listen the technology so scary I
saw something well not I I mean this
isn't well no this is still kind of
scary is it was I forget the name of the
a it's it was a self-driving these
self-driving taxis they're pulling right
up your house you get in the car
nobody's driving it talks to you puts
your seat belt on blah blah blah and it
drives off and it listen they're doing
it right now like I I was telling boak
like the scary thing is is honestly in
two years they'll be everywhere and
they'll be amazing like right now
they're only in certain spots certain
cities you know like Chicago um La that
kind of thing I just did my first drone
surveillance in a private investigative
case um where uh and did you do the
Drone I I hired a guy but uh but it was
here's here's here's how naive I am with
all this new technology and why I'm I'm
still playing ketchup like I needed to
establish what was inside this kind of
compound uh in Florida um you know we
were looking for some cars that were of
issue in a case and so and uh and you
know a walled compound you could see
like there was one side that didn't have
a wall but you couldn't get to it
because you were looking across um like
potato Fields Forever and so we um so I
I got a drone guy and uh and and I and I
said to him I go listen I go here's what
we'll do we're going to dress up like
construction workers and we're going to
stand on the side of the road and uh and
you're going to have the Drone and but
we're going to look like we're doing
surveying um surveying uh for the for
like a road construction and then we
could be just on the other side of the
tree line of this place you can just fly
above the trees take the pictures we can
get out and he goes you don't know what
a drone does do you Tom and I go what do
you mean he goes why don't we just go to
the gas station half a mile away and
I'll fly over there we'll fly over the
guy's house we'll take pictures of
everything then fly it back to us we
don't need to dress up like morons on
the side of the road these things have a
really good range and gosh darn it if it
wasn't amazing like the I mean I'm
watching it through the viewfinder and
it look like a you we we're like looking
at it like a ghost he's like 10 feet in
the air just flying around this guy's
yard looking at the looking at stuff and
then we see there's a guy in the garage
he gets up and points down these things
the Drone was small the footage was
insanely high definition and we got the
footage back and the client was
absolutely just thrilled with this like
they never seen anything like it i'
never seen anything like it so you know
it's just a matter of time before these
things are delivering pizzas
mhm I was going to say have you came
across kind of what you guys are talking
like any AI deep fakes like that or even
like the AI audio of like manipulating
somebody else's voice I have not seen
any big cases myself involving deep
fakes or AI audio but they're coming I'm
also been i' been also been out of the
FBI since 2021 and so um and my private
investigative cases are mostly just
straight up Financial crime investment
frauds and embezzlements and romance
scams so but but for sure it's coming I
mean this AI stuff is no joke and this
this deep fakes uh stuff is insane and
and it's going to like I said it's going
to be a real uh difficult for the FBI
and and Department of Justice to like
convince a jury down the road that this
is real footage of a real bad guy doing
something really terrible as opposed to
something that the government cooked up
and with people's distrust of the
government these days we're really
giving ammunition to
Skeptics you what are we doing all right
we're ready all right wait wait what
where's your black shirt yeah I know my
black shirt video got a lot of traction
actually uh and the people were behind
me Matt I well I said I said when in the
thing I said wear whatever shirt you
want to wear and he said he was I'm
thinking about he I'm thinking about
going shirtless for the ladies boost
your numbers your numbers with the dudes
are too much listen we had a guy on um
what's his name
Luke first of all he was just massive
massive fat or no I mean just chiseled
and then when he sat down like I
remember thinking God his voice is deep
but then when I heard the T the the
video I mean it was deep yeah and Jess
and Jess hung out hung hung around when
she saw that he was coming she hung
around oh interesting you know what
happened
[Music]
[Laughter]
okay what you're back I'm back thank you
so much for having me back like I'm
winning a Triple Crown coming back for
the third time and last video did really
good and then I see all your your Tik
toks uh all oh not Tik toks your um
Instagram uh all the time you mean the
one at at Simon investigations yes oh
that's that that's the one okay that one
um hey I do have a question like you're
always like in the backyard well no
sometimes you're in your house but
that's that's your like your house right
in the backyard sometimes you're by the
uh by the lake mhm you don't have like
you didn't set up like an area or you
just I like to I I just switch it up you
know I I think I don't want to have the
exact same background uh for every video
and so well this is a show this is a
show it's very different to do a 90c
monologue and and so you know my first
couple videos were like just me with a
white wall behind me and my son who has
some video experience said that's not
visually pleasing at all don't do that
have something in the background and so
started filming in front of my library
and you know then I'll film three videos
at a time and just turn the camera like
15° and it looks like a different
background where are you coming up with
all the stories I start my day every day
at work going to the FBI and doj press
releases okay and uh and take a look and
see if any interesting cases that I find
interesting the idea being that that if
I think it's an interesting case then
I'll um then you know perhaps my viewers
will think it's interesting as well and
but I don't stop at the press release I
then go into Pacer which is the federal
court system online and I take a look at
the court documents because sometimes in
the plea agreement and the charging
documents whether it's an indictment an
information or a complaint there'll be
kind of interesting and salacious
details I can throw in and so that's uh
that's how I do it I spend probably 45
minutes researching the story you know
probably 10 minutes at that point
writing my little script and I film it
in 10 15 minutes and it's just it's like
working out in the morning every day I
just do a different
one nice that's pretty good that's
that's a that's that's easy and plus I
mean I've read you know the um the press
releases some of the press releases are
some are so bad Terri but some are some
are good like I've read some where it's
like they give some great well they give
yeah they give detail in it and the
problem is having been in that seat when
I was the Press spokesperson for the FBI
it it's you're kind of limited to what's
in the official record you can't include
like the fun sexy details I would try to
slip it in there and I usually get
dinged by the a USA and um but but yeah
so um but if I think they also leave out
some of the more graphic details which
my viewers tend to enjoy and so you can
combine those in the court records as
well yeah yeah um the trick is coming up
with pictures of the bad guys oh yeah
you got to track them down yeah because
the FBI and doj have this really stupid
rule that I had to live with for 30
years where they don't it's against doj
policy to release anyone's mug shot it's
blanket unless that person's a fugitive
and you're looking for them and so it's
a dumb rule I had to live with it
forever and the way I dealt with it with
my reporters I said if you find the guy
on Facebook call me and I'll give you
back channels a thumbs up or a thumbs
down whether that's him so you're not
embarrassed and so now I'm using you
know AI to produce photos of what the
guy probably looks like if I can't find
his picture online and one time I put a
picture of a guy up there who wasn't the
guy and he was like the mayor of a small
town with the same name and I got a call
from his uh his general council's office
saying why you putting a picture of my
of our mayor up on there as he's the guy
who did the fraud and said I'm so sorry
I'll tear it down it was honest mistake
but I mean you could always put any
general like you said a kind of a
generalized picture up there and then
just put the little black box like over
their eyes yeah I've done stuff like
that and the other issue I'll be honest
with you is is making sure you get the
ethnicity right right you know I mean I
don't want to malign any you know one
particular and everyone's so like
racially sensitive right now and looking
for a reason to complain that that I
need to make that leap of faith you know
if I'm going to put a fake picture up is
this going to be a African-American a
white person Etc and so
it's a pain in the neck and it's a it's
a it's a but people if I don't put a
picture up of the of the subject
everyone's going to be like well why why
are you protecting him why aren't you
putting that picture up so I I mean I
would just to me you could probably just
make it a general thing where even if it
is the real guy you put the bar put the
black bar over that way just you know
what I'm saying it's not that much not a
bad idea then they're all like that so
some are the actual guy with the black
strip over their eyes and some aren't I
mean but whatever I I don't know um so
uh yeah I was going to say you know what
would have great details is is if you
could get the the prenses report but the
people have just been AR yeah and
they've just been arrested you know what
I'm saying like they don't really have
like you said well some of my different
cases that I do are in different
stages right because you know the doj
will release a press release usually
when the person's charged and then when
the person's convicted and when the
person's sentenced so in the perfect
world every case has three press
releases and so and the stories I do I'm
just taking a look at what came out in
the past couple days and to see what
stri my
interest all right so let's so we've got
I we got we got what about the the the
Tango you got the Tango King I'm going
to tell you what the Tango what let's
start from the beginning okay and this
story goes back to when you were
probably in elementary school and I was
in uh in back 19 you're you're you were
in what uh let's see well how old are
you I'm I'm
54 how old do you think I am I thought
you're a couple years younger than me 54
I'm going to be 55 in July High School
class of 88 88 okay you and I both yeah
yeah well all right well same age so the
Story begins in
1989 when uh when we were both 19 years
old all right and uh you know chasing
girls I was probably a goodie two shoes
you were probably a young
thug in Chicago there was a guy named
Gilberto granados hey I appreciate you
guys watching do me a favor hit the
Subscribe button hit the Bell so you get
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also we're going to leave all of Tom's
social media links he's got like how
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on Instagram and Tik Tok Instagram and
Tik Tok are really where it's at and
it's Simon investigations Simon
investigations we're going to leave all
the uh all the links in the description
we're also going to leave the um the
link to your uh your website for the
your investigator Simon
investigations.com and we'll leave the
link I really appreciate you guys
watching thank you very much please
consider joining my patreon it's only
$10 a month and right after this I'm
going to talk to Colby about starting to
put uh special
episodes just on patreon and we're going
to talk about that so that might be
happening thank you very much see you
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