You're way too beautiful,
girl. This girl was driving me crazy.
She's accidentally sexy. Would I have
loved to have pounded on that keyword?
I'm going to be telling stories of
federal investigations, some of which I
did back when I was an FBI special
agent, some of which were other people's
um investigations because I'm going to
tell you the story about what happened,
the crime, the investigation, the trial,
if there was one, or the plea, the
conviction, and if it's a fraud case,
the loss amount, and your job, Matt Cox,
is to guess the sentence that was given
out to these people within a 20%
variance of what the real sentence was.
Ready to play?
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> Kobe, you gonna keep score?
>> Yeah, keep score. How many stories do
you have? A dozen.
>> A dozen. Okay.
>> Now, some of which have more than one
defendant, but um we'll make it work.
>> Yeah. So, we're gonna we're going to say
over 50% is a win for Matt Cox.
>> Over 50.
We got we've got quite we got there's a
20% variance and 50% is that's pretty.
>> So, you you got to get over half of them
right to uh to win.
>> That's doable. That That's
>> Well, last time it was like four of 12.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Last time it was kind of
miserable. I've not chosen these stories
for their I've chose the stories for
their entertainment value. I did not
choose them based on the the crazy
variances and sentencings that just tend
to happen. Okay.
>> So, the first story I want to talk to
about in uh involves one of these kind
of uh nitwits you see in some cities.
And you've been around the block a few
times, Matt Cox. You ever been to a city
and you see a guy who's really into
birds? like he's feeding the birds and
putting bird seed on his body and the
birds are like eating the seeds off of
them. It's a weird pathology. Yeah, kind
of a weird pathology. Well, the guy I'm
gonna tell you about is named Vaughn
Sherwood and he was the birdman of
Honolulu, Hawaii. This guy was way into
birds. Almost like a fetish. Okay. But
we'll get to that part.
>> Was it ornithology? Is it what is it
called? Or is it ornithology?
>> Something like that. I think that's the
study of birds. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
think he was as much a scientist as much
as an enthusiast. sort of the bird
version of a crazy cat lady,
>> right? Okay,
>> sounds good.
>> Now, regular fans of the Matt Cox show,
and they all should be regular fans,
might remember a story I told an episode
or two ago about a couple people who
scammed the University of Hawaii with a
fake Stevie Wonder concert.
>> Yes,
>> go back and watch that episode, people.
It's a fantastic episode. You should
watch it. Revisit all the Mad Cox
episodes
>> with with Tom in them.
>> Well, mostly those important ones. But
the from that case I got to know the
legal department at the University of
Hawaii.
>> Okay.
>> So after that case was done they called
me and say Tom we got a weird situation.
Can you come in? And I said yeah. So I
went back to the University of Hawaii.
You know lots of hugs and kisses. It's
Hawaii. That's how they roll. Uh you
know everyone seeing each other again.
And uh and they and I sit down. I go to
what's going on fellas? And they say to
me we got a weird situation. and they
put down three different student ID
photos, each with a different name, but
the same face.
>> Okay,
>> this guy had registered as a student
three different times at the University
of Hawaii under entirely different
names. Now, you may ask yourself, Matt
Cox, why would someone do that?
>> Yeah. Any theories? Uh was he like each
time he had been uh expelled from the or
you know like maybe he got expelled so
he changed his name and reregistered
changed name I could think of that but
>> you're thinking in terms of learning
this guy had no interest in learning
what he had a great deal of interest in
is getting student loans
>> ah
>> because when you get a student loan you
not only are paying for your tuition but
the student loan gives the student extra
money for rent and living expenses while
they're a full-time student.
>> And so Von Sherwood ended up doing that
and getting uh and and registering as a
student three times at the school. I
don't even know they was really
attending the classes or or maybe they
were taking some classes online at the
time. So I started looking into this
guy.
>> Yeah, you would need like a a social you
have to give him your social you give
him everything. You'd have to have a
full profile.
>> This is a story of an identity thief,
sir.
>> Okay. Well, I thought it was about
birds.
>> We're getting we're getting there. We're
getting there. So, um, as I began to
kind of look into this guy, Von Sherwood
and what he was all about, I found that
he had eight eight different names,
eight different social security numbers,
eight different dates of birth. He had
eight different identities that he was
running at once.
>> I'm liking this guy.
>> Clever guy, very prolific identity
thief. And um he was living in Wy Ki in
an apartment, but he was misrepresenting
his financial situation to receive
governmental benefits. I'm talking
welfare cash payments, food stamps,
medical benefits, uh section 8 housing.
For 14 years, the you the taxpayer was
paying his rent in Wik Ki.
>> Well, that's got to be million in the
millions.
>> We'll get there. He also claimed
disability and so he's getting social
security disability benefits. And he
also became his own caregiver under a
different name where he received money
from the government to be a caregiver of
someone on disability.
>> The person on disability was him.
>> Yes.
>> Brilliant.
>> I knew you'd like this.
>> This is pre-doge. Obviously, Elon would
have put a stop to this,
>> right? He also during the same window of
time inherited $360,000 from his
parents.
Um, and he had assets including a
sailboat, a jet ski, and a Mercedes-Benz
S420.
>> What is going on? This guy is very
prolific.
>> Well, and he was also really, really
into birds. Like, like, you know, he was
like a fixture in Wy Keys, the guy who'd
lay there on the beach and put bird seed
all over his body and the birds would
like eat eat, you know, be all over him
eating food off of his belly and stuff.
>> Don't you have to go to school to get
the student loan? Don't you have to pass
the classes? I'm a little unclear about
what that how that played out. That
wasn't my interest, but um I don't know
that he was attending classes with any
regularity. He had been a convicted
felon in the past for something else in
his past. And uh and so uh which becomes
relevant later. Turns out that the
dollar amount was not so astronomical
once we kind of added it all up. Um he
only got away with about $220,000.
Um but you know,
>> it's hardly worth getting up in the
morning. talking about still. Yeah. I
mean, but again, he had wealth from
other things, but you know, the the the
government benefits, you know, aren't
just aren't as generous as people think,
but he's doing it again and again and
again for whatever reason. $220,000. So,
we do a search warrant of his house. I
get an arrest warrant and a search
warrant. Um get to his house, he meets
us at the door, dark naked.
>> Was he shocked?
>> Not a pretty shock. Yeah, very shocked.
And uh get some clothes on. Um, you
know, we hook him up. Search warrant
begins of his house.
>> The house, the apartment rather, in Wy
Ki filled with birds
like flying free like like Ace Ventura
Pet Detective. Just birds everywhere.
>> The entire carpet, bird [ __ ] everywhere.
>> There. Okay. His place was so dirty,
Matt Cox, that there was bird seed that
had fallen onto the carpet and sprouted
out as plants. in his carpet.
>> Yeah.
>> And so as we're he gets dressed, I'm
having the guys take him uh take him,
you know, to the FBI building for
interrogation. And the last thing he
said is, "I don't think I'm going to get
bail. Will you do me a favor? When you
leave, leave my windows open so the
birds can fly out and be free."
>> In the search of his house,
>> kind of beautiful, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the search of his
house, we found two rifles and four
handguns, including a zip gun, which is
kind of like a homemade gun,
>> which is illegal, right?
>> Illegal. Yeah, pretty sure. Convicted
felon also.
>> Oh, okay.
>> And uh so that was pretty much the
totality of it. So, put together the
case. Again, the loss amount was not
astronomically high, 220,000, but
charged with um identity theft, theft of
government property, illegal firearm
possession.
Matt Cox,
>> aggravated identity theft. I don't know
the difference.
>> Aggravated is it is two extra years on
top of whatever else you get.
>> I don't think it was aggravated.
>> Okay.
>> Uh or or say it was aggravated. I don't
I don't know. I don't care. I wasn't too
worried about it. He played out.
>> I don't know. It doesn't sound like It
sounds to me like three years.
>> So you're you're three years 36 months
is your guess?
>> Yes. He didn't go to trial.
>> No, he played out.
>> Okay.
>> He played out. Um I want you to think
that through
>> $220,000 that I don't even think. Again,
there's also felon with a firearm.
>> Yeah. Which
>> also identity theft.
>> Three years. Okay. Maybe if it was
aggravated identity theft, maybe five
between 3 to 5 years, but I I I don't
think the the money doesn't even seem
like that's that on its own, pleading
guilty on its own might have been a year
or two. Okay, let's say let's say five
years. Five years.
>> I don't want to talk you out of
anything, Matt Cox. Um, and if we're
just two guys talking in a bar, uh, you
can give that range three to five years
and be very cavalier about it. But we're
playing a game here and Young Col's
keeping score. I don't know, it's weird
for me to explain the format of your own
show, but um, I need you to tell me how
many months his sentence was and then
we'll see if you're within 20%.
>> 42 months.
>> 42 months is your final answer cuz you
were just at 60 months 15 seconds ago
and before that you were at 36 months.
>> 48 months. 48 months. I need to be
within 20%. 48 months.
>> The answer.
>> Mhm.
>> Von Sherwood was sentenced to 57 months
in federal prison.
>> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Matt Cox on his way to a sweep. Get
>> Well, you know, he he helped you out
with that one.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Listen, you don't know with
Tom. I was thinking to myself, this
guy's going to get I was thinking he was
going to get 12 months the way because I
know you're trying to You think about
this. You you added it up and
>> I helped you there. You got I get the
>> You don't usually help me though. Last
time you didn't help me. You did it the
other way where I was You were making it
seem like it was going to be more and
more. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, 10
years." Next thing you know, it was like
eight months.
>> This is like a double reverse uno card.
I can't I can't
>> Yeah, you can't know. I'm like I'm like
a poker match. Yeah, I'm a poker. You
can't read this.
>> The Supreme Court said that FBI agents
are allowed to lie.
>> Thank God.
Thank God. Another case, Florida case.
uh a case I was a part of, but I wasn't
the case agent. It's important for me
that people know that. I don't ever take
credit for another agent's work. So, I
did some surveillance on this case and
some work. I know you don't care. Your
audience doesn't care, but I care
because I don't want the actual case
agent to watch this and think I'm a dick
for taking credit for his work.
>> Got it.
>> You ever see those weird little
gaming casinos that appear to be kind of
Chineseish and uh like on the side of
like the road in the country? It's like
games, win money casino. You're not in
an area where it's a real casino. It's
just sort of a small clapboard building
and and I don't inside them they're
almost like video games that you're
playing that are hooked to the internet
where you can win money. Have you ever
seen those or am I just am I talking
about
>> I have and not only that I feel like I
saw one the other day cuz um my wife
>> actually pointed it out to me
>> and said that they have
>> sometimes they have gambling games in
there and cuz she and her mother for a
very short period of time maybe a few
months actually worked with a guy that
was setting those up because at a
certain point in time Florida kind of
allowed you to do that and they shut it
down. It's a legal gray area and I don't
really pretend to understand how all
that works and I'm not a, you know, I'll
play poker with friends and stuff like
that, but I'm not a big gambler. But I
always drive by those. I'm like, how is
that allowed? How is that legal? And
what is it? You know, are you going in
there and just playing like video slots
on a computer screen and then someone in
Beijing is paying you out? I don't get
it. But I can tell you that there was
one of these places, one of these things
here in Florida that got busted by the
local sheriff's department and the guy
in charge of it, the owner, manager,
whatever, we'll call him Bob. I don't
remember his name, um, was charged with
keeping a gambling place. Bob hires an
attorney named Michael Ostein. Okay, so
that's one character. Bob has an his
defense attorney is Michael Ostein.
Okay,
>> but our real character here, the villain
that I want to talk about was the
popularly elected prosecutor
whose name was Jeff Siemeister.
He was the elected states attorney for
Columbia, Dixie, Hamilton, Lafayette,
Madison, Swany, and Taylor counties in
uh in Florida. The judicial district
that he was in charge of had all those
counties underneath. Siemeister's the
prosecutor in this kind of like farm
country of Florida. Ostein's the defense
attorney and poor Bob who ran the uh the
casino is the defendant. Ostein says to
Bob, "I can make this go away because
Semeister is kind of open for business.
If we pay him a bribe,
>> we can get the charges dropped and
you'll have no legal exposure." And and
Bob's like, "Sir, yes, sir." And um and
so they decide to uh to do that and they
ask and Ostein goes to Seigmemeister and
says, "What's it going to take?" And
Seiemeister says, "Here's the deal. I'm
selling a bull.
You buy the bull for $75,000.
This case goes away." Where were these
prosecutors when I was in trouble? Where
were these people that were so open for
business? I mean, I got I got I got a
bunch of ethical people on my case. I
Okay,
>> so somewhere So, um the deal was brought
back to Bob. He said, and Bob's like,
"Sure, I'll pay the $75,000."
Now, somewhere along the line, Bob
talked to someone else, and Bob realized
that there's an upside for him to be a
FBI source for the payment of this
bribe. It doesn't cost him $75.
>> You know, basically working both against
his own attorney Ostein.
>> Oh,
>> and Siemeister
FBI would love that,
>> right? So, it's kind of a twofer, right?
We have a dirty local attorney who's
paying bribes to a a elected prosecutor
and then we have Bob in the middle of
this who's assisting the FBI.
>> Had Bob ever been arrested for this or
they just came to him and said, "This is
an issue. We're going to You may be
arrested. It's illegal." Oh, no, no. Bob
was arrested and charged.
>> Did I miss that?
>> No, I Bob was arrested by the sheriff's
department for keeping a gambling place,
which is the crime. Basically running a
gambling house. And the gambling house
was one of these,
>> you know, kind of weird video gameish
casinos on the side of the road. It's
not like hiding in some back room just
advertising out to the public. And so
they uh they record Bob. Again, all we
have is Bob bringing Ostein the money in
two different payments and Ostein then
bringing it to Sigmeister. And as I
recall, the charges got dropped. And so,
um, and so, you know, we kind of have
half the case, but not the full case.
Meanwhile, Siemeister also had another
legal problem, totally separate and
apart for this. He he, you know, was an
attorney and um and he and I'm not sure
if he's allowed to have a private
practice, but somehow Ostein had a role
as a voluntary guardian of an elderly
individual, like a legal guardian, kind
of paying the elder person's um, and he
rips off $500,000 from the old lady.
He's taken care of basically through
false accounting entries,
>> misreporting, and he and then he also
fails to report these items on his tax
returns, which is also a no no.
>> He's got three cases going.
>> He's elected official. Ostein gets
arrested. I interview him. Not fully
cooperative. Clearly has a story to
tell. Siemeister gets arrested. Digs in
his heels. Um Ostein and Siemeister both
plead guilty.
>> Okay. Okay, so the attorney who
facilitated the bribe shook down his own
client for a bribe and Siemeister who
accepted the bribe and also ripped off a
little old lady for $500,000.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, that's the facts that you need
to have to answer any questions you
have, but that's everything. They have
plead guilty. What would their sentence
be?
>> So, Bob never Bob what was it like a
pre-trial intervention? He never went to
jail at all.
>> Uh I don't know if Bob had to. Yeah, Bob
got a deal for cooperating. It was never
a federal case. So, it really the the US
government could not give him a deal,
but I don't know that the state of
Florida had any appetite for Bob after
this this after every, you know, him
being shaken down.
>> We know see Micro wasn't going to do him
any favors,
>> right? Um, so the prosecutor I would
say,
you know, doesn't have a criminal
record, but it's, you know, public
corruption, it's taxes, it's, and I'm
pretty sure that a federal judge would
look very unfavorably on that situation
be specifically, well, the elderly,
>> in combination of the elderly and him
being in a position where he was
elected. Uh, he's got a position of
trust.
Let me let me give you the charges.
Siemeister plead guilty to conspiracy,
extortion, wire fraud, and tax fraud.
>> Ostein, the defense attorney, plead
guilty to extortion because he's
extorting his client,
>> right?
>> And failing to file currency transaction
reports. Kind of a technical violation
there.
>> Um, and again, both guys plead guilty
and avoided a trial. So, those are those
are the charges to which they plead
guilty.
>> I mean, I'm thinking the attorney got 60
months.
>> Mhm.
[Music]
I'm going to say 48 month. The the
attorney got 48 months and I'm going to
say that the prosecutor got
eight years.
>> All right. You want to stick with that?
>> Yes, I do.
>> Okay. Let's start with the defense
attorney. What was your prediction for
him?
>> Defense attorney was 48 months.
>> 48 months. His uh actual sentence was 44
months
in federal prison for extorting his
client.
>> You make it sound so so bad. Extortion.
Sounds bad.
>> Yeah, you're extorting client money.
It's really bad.
>> It's bad for society. It's bad. It's bad
for
>> I mean, he's not saying I mean,
>> but his client wasn't exactly a patriot
either, you know. So, but yeah, I hear
you. He's wrong.
>> Okay.
>> Was wrong.
>> And you're well within your 20% variance
for the attorney.
>> Now, for the prosecutor, you said 8
years. 8 time 12 is
>> 96
>> is 96 months.
I'm a little unclear why, but Semeister
only got 40 months. He got less time
than the defense attorney who shook down
his client. I think my impression, and
again, I wasn't there in court for the
sentencing, is that the judge really was
offended at the idea of a defense
attorney shaking down his client and
like and kind of subverting the system
like this and, you know, even bringing
this to Semeister.
>> But it was but it was expected from the
politician. Everybody knows about it.
Yeah.
>> See, I would think he held Well, they
both held a position of trust, but I
would think the position of trust, you
stole half a million dollars from some
old lady's pension, but that you're
taken care of. You're also in a position
of trust there,
>> right?
>> And you accepted abroad. Like to me,
he's got he's more culpable in my
opinion than the attorney is.
>> Um, so that's why I thought he
>> frankly I don't disagree with you.
>> And he stole a lot more money and he
accepted a $75,000 bribe,
>> right? Yeah.
>> This guy's got
>> Yeah. I mean,
>> and but he lost a bull.
>> He He lost a 15 a bull was really worth
1,500 bucks.
>> Beat up whole bull. Uh there was an
order from the court that he needed to
forfeit $518,000.
>> Edwin Calliston.
>> Edwin.
>> Edwin. He had he worked at the Kauaii
Humane Society.
Okay. In uh on the island of Kauaii in
Hawaii where I used to be an FBI agent.
>> I felt like that. He was injured in 1976
while working for the Kauawaii Humane
Society and he received a $1,500 a month
workers compensation settlement for
that.
>> Okay.
>> Cuz he was unable to work ever again
after this injury.
>> Permanently disabled.
>> Permanently disabled. Um I don't really
quite understand the mechanics of
workers comp workers compensation, but
the money is coming from the workers
compensation fund, which is a state of
Hawaii fund. Yeah. Okay. So, the state
is paying that. I'm assuming that the
Humane Society is paying for that kind
of insurance from the state for workers
compensation. I think that's how it
works. Not my expertise. Don't come at
me in the comments if I got that
structure wrong. But I do know that it's
that state of Hawaii money every month
goes into this guy's bank account for
1,500 bucks because he's unable to work
cuz he got bit by a dog or something
like that.
>> Right. I was going to say I mean
>> in 1976 when you and I were 6 years old,
>> right? That's a long time ago.
>> It's a long time ago. Uh, he's got a
daughter named Lindsay. She becomes a
character in the story in a little bit.
1990 rolls around.
>> Mhm.
>> Edwin dies.
>> Sad.
>> As as people tend to do. He was living
in California when he died.
>> Hawaii doesn't know it.
>> But Lindsay does not report his death to
anyone.
>> I don't feel like it's her
responsibility.
>> She keeps it under her hat. Now, she
does have a joint bank account with dad
in case anything happened.
>> What? Yeah. I mean, sometimes people do
that. You got an elderly relative, it's
easier to put me on the bank account
with mom than to kind of deal with
probate and all that. Guess what? State
of Hawaii continues to deposit $1,500 a
month into Lindsay and her father's bank
account,
>> right?
>> And as a tribute to her father, she
takes that money and enjoys it.
>> Right.
>> Right. Dad would have wanted it that
way,
>> presumably. Yeah. And so uh and every
year because there are there are
safeguards in place, the state of Hawaii
sends dead Edwin a letter saying, "Hey
bro, you still alive?" And then uh and
Lindsay opens that letter every year,
signs it, sends it back in. Doing well,
Hawaii. Aloha to you here in California.
Loving love and kisses, Edwin. And she
continues to accept that money. It's
like $1,500 falling from the sky on the
first of the month every month
supplementing her life. It's
>> an extra $18,000
a year.
>> Yeah, you're good.
>> Yeah,
>> you're good at this. Yeah. And um for 21
years, Matt Cox, this continued
undetected
until the state of Hawaii ran the
numbers and said, "You know what?
>> Roughly 200,000."
>> Well, Kobe pulled out his phone. Uh, we
we'll get there. I have a number.
>> Wait, it was 20 years.
>> For 21 years.
>> Oh, wait. No, that's 400. Close to
400,000.
>> Correct. For 21 years, this continued
until the state of Hawaii kind of ran
the numbers and saw that Edwin's like
105.
>> Mhm.
>> And they're like, "Something stinks
here." And they begin looking into it
and discovered that he's dead and
contact my squad at the FBI to
investigate it.
>> So, this is like the Hawaiian Doge got a
hold of it.
>> Yeah. I mean, at some point, someone's
going to realize that there's a 105y old
guy who's been who's been enjoying uh
enjoying a monthly benefit for 21 years.
And your math is impressive because the
loss amount was 400,000.
Lindsay confronted by my colleagues,
confesses, comes in, and pleads guilty.
>> How much time are you going to give
Lindsay
for this $400,000 fraud? That should
shock the conscience, but I'm sensing
your conscience is not shocked.
>> I mean, I I feel like
give her the key to the city, send her
on her way, put a layer around her neck,
and say, "Don't do it again, Lindsay."
>> 18 months
>> really for a $400,000 fraud.
>> Yeah.
>> The for keep she's forging a document
every year. Uh,
>> it's one document.
They're depositing it.
>> 18 months is your guess. I'm I'm not I'm
not trying to influence you either way.
I'm just curious.
>> Maybe
>> your moral compass surprises me because
this doesn't offend you at all.
>> State money. Um,
>> state money. It's my money. I was a
taxpayer there.
You're right. You're right.
>> 12 months. No,
>> let's go. 36 months. I'll go.
>> Dude, dude, dude, I am not trying to
talk you off your first guess at all.
>> 24 months.
>> 24 months is 24 months.
>> 24 months is your guess.
>> It's 400,000. She missed her dad. It
wasn't her responsibility. I mean, I
don't
>> Matt Cox.
>> Mhm.
>> You are good at this.
>> The sentence was 21 months.
>> Oh, okay. I was good with 18. 18.
>> I'm not trying to I'm never ever trying
to talk you out of it. I'm trying to
tease the answer that you want out of
it. Okay. Because
>> people are going to say that you're
helping me or something.
>> I'm not helping you. I'm not helping
you.
>> My first one was 18,
>> which also would have been, you know,
which also would have been fine. Yeah.
>> I'm just I'm trying I'm trying to just I
just like Regis Filin. I just want to
know what your final answer is. Okay,
good. That was good. Yeah, poor chick.
Yeah, she probably went in probably only
did eight months before they put her in
for halfway house. She did she probably
did eight months incarcerated and then
went to the halfway house and she,
>> you know, she's now she's got a
restitution payment and
>> Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, I'm not too bent
out of shape about this case for the
record. I'm not so so strided like
string her up. She must be stoned in the
public square in Wy Ki. I mean it I mean
she did wrong. Uh just the system worked
eventually.
>> You ever do time in state prison?
>> No.
>> What? I don't know.
>> No.
>> I mean you are you're you're probably
the most highprofile ex- prisoner in
America.
>> Oh my gosh. That's
>> who No, there's others. There's a couple
of guys. No. Yeah. Um no.
>> Who talks who talks very openly about
the prison experience. I mean, you are
an expert in this field. I just didn't
know if you had ever been to a state
prison. All of your every time you were
in for anything, it was uh federal.
>> Yeah. Well, I went in to I did do a few
days in county. I did I I got arrested
one time when I got arrested by the FBI.
I also got arrested by the county for
basically the same crime.
>> Mhm.
>> How much time did you have to spend in
the county?
>> Like 5 days and nothing. It was
>> was it a noticeable nightmare between
county versus federal?
>> No, because the county jail even when
you're in county jail for the feds, it's
called the US Marshals Holdover. It's
still county jail. They just have a
contract. So they're like, "Oh, you're a
federal holding."
>> That looks like a county jail, fellas.
>> Yeah. It's in It's usually in cities
where there's not a federal detention
center.
>> They can't have them everywhere. Right.
>> Right. And so we So it ends up being a
good deal for these county jails because
they're getting good rent for you every
night to give you a bologn sandwich and
a place to sleep.
>> Yeah. I never minded the the bologn
sandwiches. Actually never really had a
bad bologn sandwich. Guys complain. I
like bologn sandwiches.
>> You're a man of discerning taste.
I feel like a bologn sandwich right now.
I feel like they might go get one. Okay,
so but I'm here to Okay. Bayside State
Prison in Leburg, New Jersey had been
riddled with problems for years.
A majority of the cells lacked air
conditioning of any kind.
>> I hate that.
>> In the summertime, the the temperatures
like day and night exceed often 90
degrees,
>> right? So tempers run high in that type
of situation. Um frayed nerves among the
inmates and the staff which often led to
violence fights and stuff like that. So
there was a corrections officer called
John Mos.
He supervised inmates working in the
kitchen and he had like a crew of guys.
And even though he was the corrections
officer and they were prisoners, this
crew of like the dozen guys who would
make the food, they were like his little
gang. and he was like their leader, you
know, I imagine he would give them extra
baloney or whatever whatever whatever
that's going on there,
>> right?
>> Um
>> and uh and they had he gamed it out so
well that he knew and I'm curious if you
experienced this as well exactly where
the cameras were inside the uh the
prison and he knew where the dead zones
were that you could be unmonitored. Was
that a thing for you guys? you care like
>> they can't they don't have cameras
everywhere like there's hallways and
little rooms and little
>> Was that relevant and pertinent to your
life as a prisoner to know what the dead
zones were? Not me, but I wasn't like,
you know, what the guy they called doing
dirt, you know. I wasn't doing dirt. So,
you know, guys would walk over to like,
"Hey, come over here with the blind
spot." You know?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, corrections officer John Makos was
doing dirt.
>> That should be the name of the episode.
Doing dirt.
>> Doing dirt. Um when when a prisoner
would kind of break the rules, John
would bring them to one of these dead
zones and have his kitchen henchmen beat
the heck out of the guy at John's
command.
>> Okay.
>> Are you shocked by this?
>> I'm not really. State prisons a lot of
the inmates are extremely violent
and uh uh whatever environment and the
correctional officers don't get paid a
ton of money. And you know, listen,
there are correctional officers that are
in there that are gang members in charge
of the other gang me like I you know,
there's I've heard horror stories about
these the some of the correction
officers and I
>> many times guys would come from state or
had done state time and come in the
federal system and they were just like
this is amazing. This is great. There's
air conditioning the food is edible. You
can go back for seconds. You know they
were just like oh my god like you know
they loved it and they would tell you
horror stories. I used to walk away. I
used to walk I said this the other day.
There was a guy that used to tell
stories all always telling stories about
state prisons. He had elusive man one
time in state. I'd just get it would
make me sick to my stomach. Every story
was horrible. Yeah.
>> And I was like like I don't want to hear
about this. It's so bad.
>> It sounds like a nightmare. Whereas in
the federal camps, everyone's practicing
their pickle ball swings.
>> Yeah.
>> There's karaoke night.
>> Saw that Elizabeth Holmes lady like
walking with the weights in her hands
the other day in prison on the internet.
And so yeah. Um karaoke. That's funny.
Um, so one time John watched and did not
attempt to intervene when multiple
inmates under his control pinned a
victim to the floor and punched him 25
times in the head.
>> Mhm.
>> And that was the straw that broke the
camel's back before
>> damage
>> before Well, that prisoner ended up, you
know, talking to his attorney who
complained the FBI had heard rumblings
that there were issues there
specifically involving John. FBI
launches an investigation. People
cooperate. It's not on video, but they
have enough. And um you know there's the
Newark office of the FBI and they ended
up charging John with the kind of civil
rights violations associated with being
a corrections officer sort you know
beating people and doing stuff that's
just absolutely illegal
>> right
>> uh John pleads guilty to this crime and
again the charge to which he plead
guilty to was very specific to the
beating of that one inmate uh with the
25 hits but within his pre-sentence
report it was it you know it came out
that this was not an irregular
occurrence of him kind of running this
gang,
>> right?
>> So, you got a state corrections officer
in a highly volatile, problematic prison
environment running a gang of people and
violating the civil rights of somebody
who did not die but was beaten pretty
badly again 25 times while laying on the
floor in an organized effort while John
the uh corrections officer watched on.
Pleads guilty. What would his sentence
be? Um,
and they go gave those Rodney King cops
a bunch of time, didn't they? I don't
know. Let's say 72 72 months.
>> 72 months.
>> I' I'm just guessing because I have no
That's such an odd like I have no
>> It's easier for fraud cases, isn't it?
Because it's just a math problem and
guidelines. Yeah, cuz I' I've heard so
many guys drug cases, but when they're
off or bank robber like the cases I've
heard and I knew guys that robbed three
banks and used a note and he got three
years and you're like why? Well, I used
a note and it wasn't threatening, you
know? So, I know I have that. But this,
let's say 72 months because I feel like
that's
>> it's a really I I feel I feel like it's
>> a really serious serious crime. Mh.
>> But what I've noticed in federal in
federal prison is that
law enforcement tends to not really care
about crimes against inmates. Like
>> that's a good point.
>> There would be guys that would come into
prison and some family member signs a
quit claim deed to their house and quits
claim deeds it puts it on the market and
sells it and keeps all the money. and
and you're sitting there going and this
guy, he's writing letter after letter
after letter. Law enforcement won't even
come to take a they won't even listen to
him. They don't care. They're like,
"Okay, so what? They stole my car. They
stole all my furniture. They this."
They're like, "Okay, so what? You're in
you're locked up in federal prison.
That's your And that's a shame.
Prisoners have civil rights." And so my
question then is when you're guessing
that John would get 72 months for the
crime that he plead guilty to, is that
discounting it for the unsympathetic
victims that you feel that
>> Yeah, cuz I would think it'd be closer
to 10 because this guy could have killed
who knows how many people he's having
beat up, he's having extorted, he's
having so I'm thinking 10, but I'm also
thinking they're the way they look at
it, they're just inmates. Does that make
sense? I mean, it's
>> it's your logic your logic's uh you
know, not flawed.
>> Why? What is it? you 72 is your guess?
>> Yeah.
>> Correct answer.
>> Yeah.
>> 30 months.
>> Oh,
>> not even close. Okay.
>> Not even close. Order of magnitude.
>> So, I've actually told this story
several times. This reminds me there was
a female guard in Coleman in the pen.
And this was the pin like
>> Coleman where I was. There's a there a
camp, a low, a medium, and two pens.
Okay.
>> I don't know which pen it was, but she
was in the shoe, right? So she's that's
the like the hole or
>> solitary confinement kind of
>> uh it's a special housing unit.
>> Okay.
>> It's not special. Um but so she's the
guard in there. And there was one of the
inmates that was giving her a hard time.
Now keep in mind too, by the way, she
was married to a lieutenant.
Lieutenant was a huge guy. We're talking
about 6'4. I don't know if he was Samoan
or what. Black hair and a ponytail, but
a massive guy.
>> Yeah. Uh, and she's in the shoe. One
specific
um, inmate is giving her a hard time.
He's calling her names. He's he's g, you
know, whatever sexual harassment,
sexually harassing him, harassing her,
everything. Another inmate, she's known
for a decade and he's also there.
>> Mhm. And at one point
I and I'm this I'm kind of I don't
really know but I this is what I kind of
heard was that there was a conversation
between the two of them where maybe the
guy says hey
>> the one inmate she knows he says hey why
don't you put me in that cell with that
guy and I'll shut him up like I'll take
care of him and she goes okay. So, she
writes up the cell swap because they're
constantly selling uh switching cells,
right? Every week or two,
>> she puts the two of them together and as
they're going in, she stops him and
says, "Break his legs or break his leg
or break what? Break his arm, whatever."
And he's like, "I got you." Well, he
goes in the cell. Well, there's not a
small guy that's in the cell.
>> Yeah. No cameras, no supervision.
>> There's a camera that sees the transa or
sees the uh the interactions. So, she
has a hard time explaining when she
stops the guy and she's having these
conversations and she's talking and you
know, you're looking over at the other
cell as you like. It's pretty obvious
there's a conversation.
>> Mhm.
>> And she says something like, "Yeah,
break his legs or something or break his
arm or whatever." And he's I got you.
Goes in there. Well, the other guy
doesn't just say, "Yeah, go ahead. I
have it coming." He fights back and it
gets to be a big fight. And the the guy
she sent in there ends up getting the
guy in like a headlock or something
because the guy's fighting like, you
know, you get to a point where you're
like, "Oh [ __ ] I may not win this."
>> Yeah.
>> So, I got to do whatever I got to do at
this point cuz I'm about to get I might
get my ass beat.
>> It becomes a law enforcement deadly
force again,
>> right? So, he goes deadly force on him
and he either breaks his neck, chokes
him to death. So, something Oh, he kills
him.
>> Oh,
>> FBI comes in,
>> right?
>> Um FBI comes in, grabs her. Now, at this
point, by the way, they've got the one
guy who killed him.
>> Mhm.
>> And when they grab him, FBI comes in
because, you know, to death, they the
the law the correctional officers aren't
going to investigate. SIS isn't, which
is their internal state.
>> The FBI is the only game in town.
>> Yeah. The FBI's got to come in. You
can't have them doing it,
>> right? It's also a crime on a federal
reservation.
>> Yes. So, they come in, they interview
the guy,
>> and he doesn't lawyer up. What he says
is,
"She put me in that cell. I was just
supposed to beat the guy up, but it got
out of hand because the guy fought back
and it was really bad and I I got scared
and I I ended up choking him that I
killed him. And they're like, "She put
you in the cell? Did she know?" Oh, no,
no, she wanted me. She before I walked
in, she actually says this. And there's
other inmates that have heard the the
conversation of bits and pieces of the
conversation. It's
>> good evidence.
>> So, and there's a there's a video camera
unlike Epstein.
>> There was a video camera that was
working
>> with no audio though, right? They just
seen an exchange of two people talking.
But he's saying it. Other inmates are
saying, "This is what happened." There
was no reason for her to transfer the
guy.
>> Yeah.
>> And so they go to her and they say, "10
years. We'll give you 10 years. You
know, you didn't we know you didn't mean
for him to die."
>> Mhm.
>> We're going to give you 10 10 years.
Now, the the the murderer, the guy that
killed the guy, he's getting a sentence
cut. He killed him, but he's getting a
cut. Like he's not not like we're
charging him like he's already got like
30 years. is like, "No, no. We're going
to knock some of the 30 years off to get
this
>> to get this law enforcement officer
>> or CEO."
>> She says, "No, I'm not doing that. I'm
not doing 10 years." She's done. No,
[ __ ] that. I didn't know. I just told
him, you know, I just said this. I
didn't know that was going to happen.
She goes to trial.
>> Oh, really?
>> Uh-huh. Okay.
>> I'm not sure if she got 30 years or
life,
>> but she's married to the big guy.
Remember the big the lieutenant she's
married to? He ended up being
transferred from the pin to the low I
want to say the low or the medium. I
want to think it was the low because he
was there a long time. I saw him several
times. I actually had a couple
interactions with him just a brief
>> um talk like I had gone in because I
wrote something up and they were trying
to get me to drop the
>> drop the the write up. Mhm.
>> They'll they'll search guys lockers and
stuff and they'll so they'll take stuff
from you like they'll take sodas or
whatever and they'll have a box. They'll
be like, "Listen, what can we get you to
for you to drop this this write up that
you wrote up this officer, you wrote up
this like it's a headache.
Let's quash it.
>> How about I give you two sodas?"
And you're like, "No, no, it's typically
what it's not like drop it." It's like
somebody broke something like the the
officer searched my stuff and he broke
this or he broke that. That was five
bucks. And they're like, "Give $5."
That's a couple sodas. Couple couple six
packs of sodas and uh get yourself some
honey buns. We're going to we're going
to quash this, right, Cox? Yeah. All
right. That's cool.
>> Anyway, yeah, the chick got uh uh like
30 or 30 years or or life. I want to say
maybe 30. I feel like it might have been
30 years cuz I remember I always felt
like cuz they were still married. That
was the whole thing. They they say he
actually went would go see her.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz you know it's such a gossip thing
you all and they're like oh no they're
still married. He goes and sees her
everything. He's sticking by her the
whole thing.
>> It's interesting to me that the legal
system distinguishes between
>> murder and attempted murder,
>> right? Like like
>> beating this guy in the head 25 times
could have killed him. It happened to
not kill him. And therefore, everyone
just gets this slap on the wrist, 30
months, whatever.
>> What's intent?
>> Had he died in the exact same action. Oh
yeah. The the penalties would have been
through the roof like in the story you
told.
>> I mean, and you know, you think you hear
about people shooting somebody, right?
You know, we're really rewarding people
for being crummy marksmen. Like, you
know, I hit you in the center of mass
and kill you, I'm going to the death
penalty or prison for life. I'm a bad
shot, my shot goes low to the left
because I had poor trigger control. I uh
you know I I get probation because I
just you know I I shot some I shot some
excon in the hip.
>> Yeah. It did result in an actual death.
>> Right. Exactly. It's a weird anomaly
that the results of my um of the exact
same actions tend to that's out of my
control at that point has just different
punishments. It's always sort of amazed
me.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean the intent's the
same. You still tried you still intended
for him to die. Mhm. Another point, when
I do stories about dirty corrections
officers or prison guards, um, and I
call them prison guards, I get dozens of
comments from corrections officers who
are furious that I call them guards, but
I know that you use that term or cops.
>> Um, what's your thought there? Like, I
I'm and I'm I started saying corrections
officers. I'm not looking to offend
anybody. I'm not looking or denigrate
their their very difficult job. When I
first got locked up, I said to a a
correctional officer, I said, uh, you
know, I said, "Where's the other guard
that was here earlier?" I said, "He told
me to come back." And he was, "Guard, he
is he's a correctional officer." And I
went, "Yeah." And I looked at him, I
went, "What's the difference?" Right?
>> And he said,
>> "Guard dogs are," he said, "They're" He
said, "That's a that's a guard. A guard
dog." He goes, "That's a guard." He
said, "We're not guards. We're officers.
We're correctional officers." And I was
like,
>> is it just a self-esteem thing for you?
>> I think it is. I I think it's like being
called a maybe if you're being called a
cop or something they go I'm a police
officer. Maybe it's it's like hold me in
have some respect for me. It that's what
I think it's it's a respect thing like
they feel like it's disrespectful to say
a prison guard correctional officer
makes it sound more prestigious I guess.
>> Yeah. Cuz the
>> I don't mean it to be just like I'm sure
you don't.
>> Yeah. I it was a weird thing to kind of
get like called out on and uh and made
to feel bad about because I didn't mean
it to denigrate them or or the
profession. It's just a I guess it's a
term that they it's very important for
them to be thought as corrections
officers versus prison guards which is
fine to me. Matt Cox,
[Laughter]
>> people in the comments do that. Matt Cox
>> today I have
>> Matt Cox. Yes.
>> You grew up Catholic?
>> Yes.
>> Uh
>> I was confirmed. Yeah. Okay. And uh do
you still regard yourself as a Catholic
in good standing?
>> Recover recovery.
No. When my wife and I go to like a
non-denominational church, you know,
>> good for you. Um in your experience as a
Catholic back in the days, do you have
generally good experiences with priests,
bad experience with priests, or it was
just neutral?
>> This is not going in the direction you
think it is. I just all I could think of
was I I had interviewed a guy named True
Crime Kent and he said he
>> his first name was True Crime.
>> He said he felt he said, you know, he
said, "Oh, I feel unwanted like when I
aged out of aged aged out of being of
attractiveness for his uncle."
I was just like, "Oh my god,
>> that's a good line."
>> So anyway, uh yeah, no, I they were
always very Yeah, priests were always
cool. That always kind of bothers me
because people do the whole, you know,
oh yeah, Catholic priest. It's like, ah,
it's a couple of bad apples.
>> Same here. I mean, I I had, you know, I
grew up Catholic. I was very Catholic
kind of growing up. Not much of anything
anymore, but um but I had nothing but
good experiences with priests. Like they
were always just kind of cool to me and
and I was like, you know, an alter boy
and like active in like, you know, youth
ministry. I'd have been a perfect target
for a priest who wanted to take
advantage of me because I was like,
nothing nothing even a glance, not even
a side glance. They uh I guess I didn't
have that come hither look. Anyway,
>> oh my god.
>> There's a priest in St. Stannislaw's
Parish in Wardsville, Missouri. His name
is Father Ignacio Medina.
Um and he had a secret.
>> Medina makes me think of
>> funky cold medina.
>> No, I thought of media. I thought of the
>> Oh, they the dude dressing up as a lady.
Tyler Perry.
>> Tyler Perry. And
>> now this was Medina. Ignasio Medina.
>> Okay.
>> He had a secret bank account.
>> Oh.
>> And what he was doing was donors would
donate money to the parish.
>> Not all of it was making the
>> And he was accumulating and he
accumulated money from parish donations.
Accumulated $358,000
in his secret bank account.
And when he when it was time for him to
move to another Paris because they move
these guys around sometimes um you know
for perfectly legitimate reasons
>> um he drained his bank account and by
wire transferring his sister 100,000 of
the dollars that he had in his secret
bank account and then he writes a second
check to himself for the amount of you
know 200 something thousand dollars for
him to take with him to open up a new
bank account in his new city. Okay. Um
he was confronted. The parish figured
out this was going on. And his his
defense to the parish was, "No, no, no,
no, no. The church donors donated this
money because they wanted to support me
personally. I was their guy. I was their
pastor. I was I led their flock. This
wasn't just meant for the parish to kind
of pay the light bill. This was meant
for me to kind of live and thrive and
survive. Of course, that's not how the
priesthood works, but that was his
defense."
Around the same time, he had a secondary
issue.
There's a really hot woman in this
parish. She was a bombshell.
Saturday afternoon.
>> Did you see a picture? Do you know she
was a bombshell?
>> I know in my heart she was a bombshell.
>> Smoke show.
>> Okay. Saturday afternoon 400 p.m. she
goes into the confessional to confess
her sins cuz that's when that happens
right before the p.m. mass on
Saturdays. Some people go to mass on
Sunday mornings. Catholics some of them
go on Saturday evening cuz they just
can't wait to get it over with.
>> He comes on to her and solicits her for
sex during her confession.
>> It's not going to have any any uh
repercussions at all. That's not creepy
at all.
So these two things come to light. Um
the that's the straw that breaks the
camel's back with the church, right? Um
I mean he they retired him from the
priesthood. They said you are done being
a priest, Father Medina. Uh you you know
beyond this money that you stole, you
can't come on to chicks in the
confessional and solicit sex no matter
how good-looking they are. No m how much
of a smoke show she was. This girl was a
smoke.
>> Downward departure though. Your honor,
>> right?
>> Look at the photo. So they contact the
FBI,
>> the parish, because they know they've
learned their lesson, the church, about
covering [ __ ] up,
>> right?
>> And the the uh investigation happens.
Why FBI?
>> Um the wire transfer of the money to the
sister was Interstate.
>> Okay. But it isn't it Oh. Oh, and it's
stolen. Never mind. Sorry.
>> Well, that's interesting. you should
latch on to that because instead of
charging him with fraud because really,
you know, or or something like that,
they charged him with interstate
transportation of stolen property,
>> okay,
>> for the money that he wire transferred
to the sister, which was only $100,000
um of the, you know, alleged
embezzlement of $358,000, which is kind
of difficult to prove because it really
does exist in a gray area because, you
know, the parishioners know when they
donate money in that basket, you know,
every Sunday that some of this money is
going to the care and feeding of their
priest. Right.
>> Right.
>> And so, um, so you the plea deal because
he plead guilty was for the ITSP, the
interstate transportation of stolen
property for this money that he stole.
>> Now, you're smart enough to know that
the attempting to have sex with a
parishioner in the confessional is a bit
of a red herring because that while that
violates canon law, doesn't really
violate federal law.
>> Right. Right.
>> Right.
>> But given the totality of this story,
>> what kind of sentence are you giving
Father Medina? Do they bring up the
woman like I guess in the sentencing or
whatever they saying like and and they
did this?
>> She she has she has the she has the
right to go. They'll try and make her
I'm sure they would sure the prosecutor
if he want really wants to hammer the
person he's going to really say I really
need you to come. I would really
>> this story came out at the sentencing or
you know in uh in but it wasn't um you
know it wasn't part of the charge.
>> I'm just curious so the judge can just
take that into account. Oh wow. Like
this person's like
>> I think a lot of stuff at sentencing um
or there's aggravating. Yeah. That like
that there's aggravating and mitigating
factors about one's life. You know, if
like I was abused as a child and that
caused me to do it, that's a mitigating
factor. If I'm if I'm taking the money
if the money I stole I'm using it for,
you know, for strippers and blow, that's
a different thing, right? That versus
trying to make, you know, pay for cancer
treatments for my son. So every
sentencing the judge gets to understand
the totality of who this person is so
they can in theory make an informed
decision about how long to send them to
prison,
>> right?
>> Um I think he gets
30 months in the 100 is $100,000.
the the the it was acknowledged that he
exactly what I told you that he took
$358,000 into a secret account, but the
interstate transportation of the stolen
property I believe is only the hundred
grand.
>> Oh, the 100 grand.
>> Yeah. I mean, and it's a weird thing,
right? Because it's not exactly
>> Okay. I thought it was three the 300.
They I believe the hundred grand was the
interstate transportation of stolen
property because I think the sister
lived in a different state, but he him
literally taking the check from one town
in Missouri to another. Um or whether he
just held on to the check before the
whole thing kind of went sideways.
>> 12 months.
>> 12 months is your guess?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
What? What
>> answer?
>> Yeah.
>> Three months.
>> Three months. and and a $7,500 fine.
>> It's nothing.
>> And he can't hear confessions ever
again. Or at least sanctioned by the
Catholic Church.
>> He could do it privately.
>> He could go to the mall.
>> Yeah. He could bring his own wheel. He
could pick one of these. Wheel it in.
I'm here for a confession.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Um uh so little Timmy goes into the
confessional.
>> Okay.
>> He goes into the confessional. He's uh
15 years old. He's an ultra boy. And he
says, "Uh, I have to confess, father."
He said, "I I've I've been with a loose
a loose girl." He said, "I've I've I've
uh, you know, done things with her,
inappropriate things, and I want to
confess." And he and the father the
priest goes, "Little Timmy." He said,
"Who was it? Was it Betty Rogers?" And
he and No, father, I'm not going to tell
you. I'm not going to tell you. He says,
"Was it was it Cindy Martin?" "No,
father, I'm not going to tell you. I
just need my penance and just tell me
what to do and and I'll do it." He said,
"Oh, no, no." He goes, "Was it uh uh uh
Helen uh Johnson?" "No, father, I'm I'm
not going to tell you." He says, "Okay,
well, do four Hail Maryries and uh and a
and a rosary." And he said, "And and you
can't be an alter boy for the next three
months." And he says, "Okay, father."
And he turns around, goes out to the
confessional and sees his two buddies
and they go, "What? What'd you get?" He
goes, "I got three months off and three
good leads."
Like, "All right, not to be a one-uper."
Old man goes into the confessional and
the priest says, "What are your sins?"
And he goes, he goes, "I'm 80 years old
and I've been having sex with a
different 25year-old woman every day for
the past two weeks." And the priest was
like, "Wow, that's pretty serious. Why
don't you say 10 Hail Marys?" And he
goes, "Well, but father, I'm I'm not
Catholic. I'm Jewish." And the priest
goes priest goes, "Why are you telling
me this?" He goes, "Are you kidding me?
I'm telling everybody."
>> All right, Matt Cox. You ever get
involved in multi-level marketing
businesses?
No, but I know a lot about them. Do you
have What am I at by the way? Am I Am I
three out of five?
>> You're you're 50% three out of six
because there should have been five
stories told and one of them had Is that
correct? Five stories.
>> Five stories have been told
>> and then one had double. So you're three
out of six. You're right on par for
>> 50%.
>> Okay.
>> But there is 13. So there will be a
winner.
>> There will be a winner.
>> Uh yeah. um uh multi multi-level
marketing.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I I I know about them.
>> Are you pro multi-level marketing as
sort of an economic model for business?
Not really.
>> Sense. I feel like it's it's kind of
kind of like a pyramid. And it is point
it's it's basically a legal pyramid
scheme because you know, allegedly
there's some product, right? You're
selling soap, you know, or candles,
right? And the the gist behind
multi-level marketing is that that very
quickly you learn that you're never
going to make money selling soap. If
you're going to make money at all and
only 5% of the people who get involved
in MLMs make money, it's by talking your
to your friends and family and neighbors
into being part of your soap selling
network, right? And that's when it
really becomes a pyramid scheme. And
people get on me because I'm very
antiMLM. I think it's a terrible
economic model built to lose money for
people. But people are like, "Oh, yeah,
I make money doing it and all that." But
it's um the reason it's a scam and you
know it's a scam is because the
multi-level marketing industry pays
billions of dollars to lobbyists to
lobby Congress and state governments to
keep them uh up and running. Yeah. And
to not have law enforcement and laws
come down on them for being a pyramid
scheme. Right. Right. So it's Herbal
Life Amway scam scam scam. Okay.
Penn Foster is a for-profit online high
school based in Stranton, Pennsylvania.
Right. Again, for-profit schools. Kind
of a dicey uh dicey world there. This is
a for-profit private high school in
Scranton. They graduate 30,000
remote students per year at Penn Foster.
>> That's a lot.
>> Think about that. It's like you probably
one of the biggest high schools in the
nation in that regard. The school
employed a director of accounting named
Katherine Lataski.
>> Remote. These these are these are kids
that are going online who are going to
school online paying tuition to this
for-profit company that is running an
online school called Penn Foster. I'm
not denigrating Pen Foster School. I
don't know anything about it. Yeah, but
that's the that's their business model.
But they have a director of accounting
that's and this is where the story takes
place named Katherine Lataski
>> and she had a company credit card for
business purchases.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Katherine also had a side hustle
um with selling natural cleaning and
hygiene supplies for a pyramid scheme.
I'm sorry. I mean multi-level marketing
company called Jordan Essentials. Okay.
And the deal with a lot of these MLMs is
that you need to pay your own money as
the business owner to buy the inventory
to sell the natural cleaning supplies.
Right.
>> Right. So they're the company doesn't re
I mean they understand the economic
model of the MLM and the pyramid
structure of them, but they're really
trying to sell you uh sell you the
cleaning supplies. They're probably not
terribly worried about whether you're
able to sell it or whether you use it
yourself,
>> right? She spends her own money to
purchase the inventory to these
non-toxic deodorant solutions and stuff
like that. That's when Katherine has a
brainstorm. Okay, she's not she's no
dummy.
>> She says, "Why don't I use the company
credit card for my for-profit online
high school that I work for to buy the
MLM inventory to sell at these armpit
parties that I throw?"
Right.
>> Well, first of all, because it's illegal
and Yeah. No, but what you're not
understanding, Matt Cox, is that she's
the director of accounting. She can
cover it up in the financial record. She
has the keys to the kingdom. She has the
credit card and the ability to make the
accounting entries to make it seem like
these are legit business expenses of the
for-profit high school. Capich?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Was she planning on paying it back? Did
she say she was planning on paying it
back?
>> They all say that.
>> They all say that. And that's exactly
what she did, right? Um, MLMs are a
terrible idea. I think we could both
agree on that.
>> Yeah.
>> But this chick had a fetish for bad
ideas.
>> She was also really really into time
shares.
>> Okay.
>> What do you think of time shares, my
friend?
>> I mean, I'm I haven't I I I've never
bought a time share. Um, I wouldn't buy
a time share and I don't know really
anybody that has had a good experience.
>> Oh, do I want to introduce you to my mom
cuz she loves time share. I was going to
say without with the exception of maybe
the first year or two and then these
people realize like I keep making
payments.
>> You can't get rid of it.
>> It's like it's like herpes. It's like a
barnacle on your boat. You can't you
cannot get out get out of it. And when
my mother, bless her soul,
>> will die one day, my my siblings and I
get to inherit her time shares. You
know, we inherit the obligation to
continue paying the maintenance fees on
those time shares. Thanks, Mom.
>> I didn't know that. make you. They can't
make you
>> well. It becomes my debt, my obligation.
It's an asset that we have to inherit.
You cannot get out of it. It is like
imagine if your parents could hand
herpes down to you generationally. So,
what Catherine was also doing in
addition to using the company credit
card to pay for her MLM cleaning
supplies and hygiene supplies, she was
using the company credit card to buy
vacation time shares. Okay.
>> Right. She racked up $2 million
in charges on her companies uh on her
employer's cards
>> over what period of time?
>> Fiveyear period.
>> How do you hide $200,000?
>> Again, she's the accounting manager,
right? So from to the naked to the naked
eye, uh you know, to the outside there
had this expense here, that expense
there, but eventually somebody there,
you know, an audit or whatever catches
it. When uh FBI gets called in to
investigate, to her credit, when she the
FBI agent sat down and say, "Katherine,
we need to talk." She confesses to the
whole thing. She gives it up because the
FBI is good at interrogating.
>> Who was the agent?
>> Not me.
>> Okay.
>> I wish it was me,
>> actually. So, what is that? 400,000. Is
that 400,000 a year? How are you
covering up 400,000 on a school budget?
Well, you 30,000
>> and it's a forprofit school, right?
>> It's 30,000. Uh
>> yeah. I mean, people,
>> listen, I would imagine that a school of
this size has extensive IT expenses. If
I if I'm the embezzler in the story, I'm
hiding it in it expenses because it's
got to be just I mean, their entire
business relies on having like just a
whale of an internet connection for
30,000 kids. 30,000 just in they're
graduating that many. So, times four
students.
>> You know what's funny is in my mind I'm
immediately thinking, yeah, but I mean,
do you come up with a couple different
do you go incorporate a couple different
IT companies? you go ahead and do a
couple supply come if I it'd be better
if you could feather it in.
>> Well, remember it's not a false invoice
scheme. It's she she doesn't need to
create false invoices
>> cuz she's saying everything's legit.
>> All she needs to do is book it to uh
>> one audit and she's done
>> which is what happened. She was done.
>> I mean, spoiler alert, she got arrested
and spoiler alert, she's going to
prison. You just got to tell me for how
long. Uh, another fat thing to just keep
in mind, the government seized her time
shares. Um, yeah. which ends up when if
you think about it saddles you and I the
taxpayers with those actual maintenance
fees now that we collectively own those
time shares. So thanks for nothing
Katherine. Um how much time are you
going to give Katherine?
>> Um 2 million five years
>> wire fraud the charge.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh wire fraud max is 20 years. So
um
>> nonviolent crime.
>> Yeah. Nonviolent
>> confessed.
>> Um He had a choice.
>> Acceptance of responsibility. Uh
um I don't know.
Five. No criminal history.
>> Four. Four year. Uh 48 48 months.
>> 48 months.
>> Yeah.
>> Which is four years. Yeah.
>> That's your answer. You want to think
this through?
>> No.
>> No, I don't. 48 months.
>> You are exactly right.
>> Really? Yes. Nailed You're so you're so
underhanded. You can try and get me to
try my change my
>> I want you to have the courage of your
convictions. I'm here for your
self-esteem. Mad Cox,
>> were you shocked at some of these when
you were researching them? Were you some
of them you were like, "How did he get
six months?" Like,
>> well, I mean, you could you could you
could reverse engineer it. like Father
Medina, you can sort of understand that
there's a lot of gray areas with the
donation in a church basket and he's mo
he got charged with moving the money
more than he got charged with the actual
I mean you could sort of reverse
engineer how a judge could come to this
conclusion and keep in mind what we
don't have the ability to do in this
game is see the compelling arguments
that the defense attorney is making.
>> Right. Right. Yeah.
>> A lot of good he, you know, he's a good
priest, you know, tons of parishioners
are writing letters and Yeah. Yeah. So
before the show,
>> the ones he's not coming on to when he's
not hitting on.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> What are you doing on Friday night?
>> She was so hot, man. She was so He's
a smoke show.
>> Father, I wonder what does she confess
to that makes him link his job and think
it's time to shoot my shot?
>> Poor lady.
>> Every time she she comes in here once a
week, talks about going home with some
guy. just wanted she just wanted some
peace and uh and so did he.
>> Just another Yeah, a piece. Yeah.
>> All right. So, uh I got a bit of an
awkward situation here. Uh before the
show, I asked Colby if I could play a
song for you to talk about this case.
And Colby said, "Under no circumstances
could I do that with the YouTube
algorithm. It would just be a copyright
flag and we would get in trouble." And
Colby suggested that I sing the song. I
am not a singer. Hold on.
>> But for the good of the show, the show
that has brought me fame and riches,
I'm happy to sing a couple bars and see
if you recognize this song.
>> Okay.
>> You're way too beautiful,
girl. It's why
you got me in denial.
In denial. You ever heard that song?
>> I've heard it. It's by Sean Kingston.
>> It is by
>> And it's And that's not how it goes.
>> It is.
>> There's a radio edit that I did.
>> Well, that's good.
>> I did the radio edit because I The other
word that he uses that begins with an S
would also get you bounced off of
YouTube, Colobby. So, I'm thinking these
things through. Good.
>> So, the song is Beautiful Girls.
>> Let me hear the real song. Let's get
someone.
>> It's to the tune of Benny King's Stand
by Me.
D.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
D
>> keep this in.
>> It was a hit. It was a or or splice it
together so I have a musical
accompaniment with my a capella singing.
The song is Beautiful Girls by Shawn
Kingston. His real name is Kon Anderson
and he's got himself in some trouble.
Mad Cox. He's gotten himself in some
trouble. Um his mom is named Janice
Turner.
>> Now Beautiful Girls was a hit back in
God, what was it, Colobby? 2007 or so.
And it was his number one song. It was a
massive hit. Um, and a catchy tune. I
mean, again, it's just he's singing over
Benny King, Stand by Me, so let's tap
the brakes on his massive talent. But it
he had a couple other songs that were
that charted, but not number one hits.
He had also a couple features on other
people's songs, you know, where he's
like singing the chorus while the
rapper's doing the thing and all that.
So Shawn made his money back in the day,
>> but his star has fallen a little bit.
Sean Kingston really hasn't been
relevant in the music industry for well
over a decade. But but he and his mom
thought, well, you know what? Sean's
still a name. That song was a big hit.
People know that song. It's a beloved
song. And uh we're going to have to
monetize this. So they started
contacting companies and purchasing
luxury items. Okay. And um and when they
would say, "Well, we'll just wire
transfer you the money." And so they
bought uh a bulletproof Cadillac
Escalade.
Uh many many high-end watches,
>> right?
>> A I didn't know there was such a thing,
but I looked it up. A 232 in highde
television.
>> Yeah.
>> Was a must
>> type of thing. Type of thing you'd put
next to like the pool so you can like
watch the Super Bowl floating in your
pool. Um I didn't know there's such a
thing as this. an $86,000
custom bed.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> Is he out of money yet or did he or
>> Well, here's what's happening though.
And so he'd make these deals with these
people selling stuff and they would say,
"Okay, we'll just wire transfer the
money to this bank account,
>> right?"
>> And they would email them the wire
transfer sheets receipts to show that
the wire transfers took place and then
the people would send the items to them
>> and then they were very confused when
the money never arrived in their bank
account. But he's already got the items.
>> He's got the items.
>> Yeah.
>> He's got so many items,
>> right,
>> Matt? He got a million dollars worth of
items.
Okay. And uh and every and the sellers
were left with nothing but but these
receipts for wire transfers that never
occurred.
>> Broken promises.
>> Broken promises. And so it becomes clear
that the that Sean Kingston and Janice
Turner, his mother, were falsifying
these wire transfer receipts to buy
these items,
but they have a way to remedy the
situation. They have a way to remedy the
situation. They say, "Hey, okay, I don't
know what happened with the wire
transfer, but let us keep these items,
the bulletproof Escalade, and what we
will do is we will have Sean Kingston,
superstar, number one artist,
plug your business on his thriving
social media. This could be a sponsored
content deal."
>> How many What's What's social media
like?
>> Wait a minute. Let's Hold on.
>> You want to see what Sean Kingston's
followers are?
>> Yeah. What is it on Instagram? I'm not
sure. This is going to be uh this is
some real time reporting here on Inside
True Crime.
>> We're not very I don't really know how
to
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't
look. I don't want you to see his um
sentencing.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Let's see.
>> Sean,
>> what I was going to say?
>> It's Sean S. Kingston.
>> 1.9 million.
>> Okay. So, right. So, he's got he's got
he's got some muscle. He's up in the
Matt Cox area, not down with me.
>> I think we have the same, don't we? Or
you're
>> I'm at 310,000. What are you at on
Instagram? I don't even know because we
>> Instagram.
>> Let me check.
>> You're You're more famous than I am. I
have no ego there.
>> I Well, we're talking about But we're
just talking about Instagram.
>> How many do you have?
>> 310,000.
>> What do we have?
>> 39,000.
>> No. Really?
>> You're a [ __ ] You're a [ __ ]
>> So wrong.
>> Wait. You guys You guys are killing it
on Tik Tok though. I have like 110,000
on Tik Tok. What do you got on Tik Tok?
You have four.
>> You're bigger on Tik Tok than you're on
Instagram. Sean Kingston had a following
on Instagram and but guess what? These
people who got the false wire transfer
receipts weren't super into the idea of
this being some kind of like backdoor
sponsored content deal. Right. Right. So
>> Sean and his mom have a problem here.
And it was just a matter of time before
the um some of these victims who had
sent them him again a million dollars
worth of stuff
>> start complaining
>> call the Broward County Police
Department. Now, the US Secret Service,
as you may know, um they're really good,
better than the FBI at putting agents on
local police task forces.
>> Okay. I did not know that.
>> Yeah. Okay. See, again,
>> I'm FBI ride or die, right? I you know,
I I worked there 26 years. I love the
FBI. Secret Service are better partners
with locals.
>> Okay. they just they're really taking
the time to kind of embed themselves
with the local police and be a federal
resource for them. Whereas the FBI hosts
their own task force and invites local
police to come work at the FBI office.
This hits some Broward County Sheriff's
desk. He's looking at say that's pretty
big. Sean Kingston, he's a big name.
Looks at the Secret Service agent at the
desk next to him and says you should
make this federal. This is this is you
know interstate wires involved and stuff
like that.
>> C can I tell you something real quick? I
when I got arrested and I'm sitting
there handcuffed and they start
>> taking they like literally they're going
in the house and taking TVs, taking safe
>> stuff,
>> my stuff. Well,
>> yeah, I get it.
>> Um, but I'm sitting there handcuffed and
with the Secret Service cuz that's who
arrested me. We're sitting there.
>> They're these are Secret Service agents
that are coming in with and they have,
you know, they have like
>> Secret Service and Yeah. and they're and
they're picking up stuff and picking up,
you know, all kinds of stuff. And they
were at that moment, he said, um, they
were like, "Yeah, we're we're going in
your they actually took my keys to go
into the office and start grabbing
stuff." And I was like, I noticed they
were all agents. And I I went, "You
don't like you guys are grabbing this?"
I said, "You don't have people?" He
goes, "No, you're you don't have people
for this to do this?" And he goes,
"You're thinking the FBI."
>> I remember thinking,
>> "Okay,
>> I've carried a lot of stuff out of
people's houses."
>> Oh, yeah. I wish we had a staff for
that.
>> It's funny because when I saw that guy
six months later when they came to uh
talk to me, he um
>> he said uh uh man, he said that pool
table you had
>> those things weigh a ton.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah, but it was a it was
and it was a nice one. He said he said
we just built our new uh they just built
their new office. He said it was just a
little bit too big for us to put in the
break room. He was just [ __ ] with me.
He's like but boy it was close. We had
to end up selling that thing. I was just
like, "This guy's such a jerk off."
>> That's funny. So, um, Secret Service
ends up with the case against Sean
Kingston and, um, and they get, uh, he
and his mom get arrested and charged
with wire fraud.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. They, uh,
>> seems appropriate.
>> They were in denial. In denial and took
it to trial.
>> Oh, that's a mistake. At the trial, it
became clear that while Shawn Kingston
is hip deep in this thing, Mom is the
leader organizer and driver of this
scheme.
>> She's the one like creating the fake
wire transfer receipts and stuff like
that. She
>> criminally more culpable than her son
Shawn, who's also culpable. Jury comes
back guilty.
>> These guys are both guilty.
>> Again, we have a million dollars in
losses and um went to trial.
Mom and Shawn get sentenced.
What sentence did they get?
>> I feel like the It's only a million
dollars.
>> Only a million,
>> but they did go to trial.
>> They did.
>> Um,
>> more than minimal planning.
Lot going into this.
>> It's only a million dollars. So,
>> only a million.
>> Guilty. I know a guy who got like three
years for like three and a half million
plead guilty and had a criminal he had
one criminal history. Um
I feel like he gets
slightly less than her because she's
leader organizer. She's more culpable.
We don't know if she has a criminal
history.
>> Let's assume that neither of them have
significant criminal histories. I I I
never heard of such a thing. And
>> so I'm going to say she gets
60 months and he gets 36.
Wait, three and a half. Let's go three
and a half.
>> So you're saying she got five years and
he got three and a half years.
>> You're right on both counts.
>> I saw the Tik Tok [ __ ] guy.
>> You're good.
>> I told you I saw a Tik Tok this morning.
>> I know. I know. Well, I mean, there's
only so much I can do. And the whole
time you've been talking, I've been I've
been thinking, do I come close and say
nothing?
>> As soon as you got it on the nose, I'm
like, that's not like the Mad Cox I
know.
>> But also watching my [ __ ] online is also
the not the Mad Cox I know. So true. I
actually watch your stuff all the time
because it comes up all the time.
>> I had another story, but I fed that one
in there after I made the video
yesterday and it's doing quite well
today. It's a bit of a time warp, right?
because when your your fans see this, it
would have been a Tik Tok or Instagram
that I did two weeks ago, but it just
happened to be the one that aired today.
And I know that you guys like celebrity
stories for your thumbnails, so I
shoehorn that in there and threw out a
story I didn't like as much. So, this
next story has lots and lots of dirty
words in it, but I do not want to get
you thrown off of YouTube. So, we're
going to replace the dirty words in the
story
and my dramatic reading of these dirty
words with the letter that the dirty
words start with, and your people can
fill in the blanks, right?
Yes. I want to lead with the question
though because I'm interested to hear
your I always like to lead with these
questions to understand a little bit
more about the mind of Matt Cox.
>> You ever stay at an Airbnb?
>> Yes. You ever stay at an Airbnb where
the owner of the place is staying with
you?
>> No.
>> No. Is that a thing?
>> It's a thing. Like if I'm traveling on
business, um
>> you just want a room.
>> I just need a flop for the night. I'm
going to be working all day. Hey, I'll
be coming in at p.m. I need to
sleep for 600, 7 hours. Someone has a
guest room. They're looking to monetize
that. They're not looking to move out.
Yeah.
>> I stay in the guest room.
>> Oh, okay.
>> I've done it. Really?
>> Actually, I've had incredibly positive
experiences doing it because they're
anyone who's going to do that is going
to by very nature be kind of a good host
and and it's also a nice way to kind of
um learn about the um you know, the
neighborhood, the community, the hey,
you should go check this out. That's the
it's a beautiful thing in our town. You
would like,
>> right? Also though, I'm a, you know,
sizable fellow and, you know, and I'm
not worried about getting like diddled
in my sleep or anything like that,
right? So,
>> well, do they know that you're an FBI
agent coming to do you ever say you're
FBI agent?
>> I don't know that I did I ever do this
as an FB Yes, I did it as an FBI agent
because that's how I uh um when I was
like house hunting and stuff like that
for the moves. Um, it was kind of nice
cuz some of the people I stayed with
were like realtors, so they were like
really good. But again, I don't know
that I would want a wife or a daughter
to do that, especially if it was like a
dude who owned the place. But I've had
like like, you know, stayed in the guest
room of like beautiful single women in
Austin, Texas, and stuff like that. And
so, universally positive experience for
me. You know who it wasn't a positive
experience for was a woman named Missy.
Missy is a traveling occupational
therapist, right? It's like a travel
nurse. So she goes to a city and she
works at a hospital for, you know,
>> 30 days or whatever, then gets assigned.
So she's working for like an agency and
they fill in.
>> And so Missy rented a room for a month
in an Airbnb.
>> And uh the landlord was the older lady
and her 49year-old
son was also living in the house
in uh you know in a different bedroom.
So, mom's in one bedroom, the son Kevin
Struts is living in the next bedroom,
and Missy is in the guest room. I feel
like I've heard this. Is he harassing
her or something? Or
>> do you not want me to tell the story?
You want to
>> tell you tell the story? I But I It
feels familiar. I can't remember, but it
feels something like
>> entirely possible that maybe a creep.
>> Maybe you saw my social media posting
where I told the story.
>> Maybe. But
>> okay, this is happening in a town called
It's I don't know, Cirrus. Saras Ce Res
California. Every time I say it out
loud, everyone corrects me that I did it
wrong. I called it Saras California or
Sarah's California. I know that's not
right. Uh, so they rent out their spare
room as an Airbnb. Missy's there. One
day while she's staying there, she steps
into the bathroom and she sees like a
smartphone propped up on the toilet, the
top of the toilet, and the notes app is
open on the screen.
And the notes read, I'm going to read
this in Kevin's voice if that's okay.
This girl is driving me crazy. She's
accidentally sexy. I never get what I
want and it frustrates me. That's what's
on the screen, man.
He's got just sitting there sitting
there like it's like weird diary engine.
Missy super weirded out by this,
>> right?
>> Not into it.
>> She packs up her [ __ ] and leaves. She
reaches out to Airbnb and says, "This is
what happened." And uh and they're like,
"No problem, ma'am. We're gonna we're
gonna get a we'll pay for the hotel.
Puts her up in a hotel. But the
weirdness doesn't stop there. About a
month later, Missy receives a Facebook
instant message from Kevin, the guy, the
49year-old son.
>> What does it say in Kevin's voice?
>> Well, I sure wish you would have said
something instead of abruptly leaving.
You were in no danger. Don't get me
wrong. I admire you, but you're half my
age and you have a boyfriend. I don't
think of you like that. I'm sorry you
had to feel that way. My mom almost lost
her Airbnb hosting. She doesn't deserve
that. I didn't think that went through.
I wish you well.
>> Okay. So, not the end of the world,
right? Sorry, misunderstanding, etc.
>> Still inappropriate, but that's fine. A
little bit.
>> Missy doesn't respond. Couple minutes
later, bing, another message comes in
from Missy. I got the text logs here.
That's what I'm reading.
Kevin, again, I wouldn't want to put you
in an awkward position. You're going to
find that in traveling the way you do,
there's going to be people who are
attracted to you. I'm a realist, so I
say what most people won't. Would I have
loved to have pounded on that P word?
Of course, I would have, but it's not a
reality. I know that. Just a fantasy,
plain and simple.
Missy contacts the cops,
the police department in Kevin's town
and files a complaint. About a month
after that, the police have done
nothing.
>> Right.
>> Bing. Another text message from Kevin. A
month later,
I just really wanted to f you in the A
and then C in your mouth, but you got
all scared. Wow.
She hasn't responded once. Three days
later, bing, another message from Kevin.
Everything would have been just fine if
you would have let me f that tight a P
really hard and really fast.
>> As awful as this is, it was escalating.
>> Yeah, I was going to say I was going to
say
>> it's not getting better, right? Like my
advice to her would just be like block
him. Don't say anything. Leave it alone.
Don't respond. Don't feed the beast. But
she and that's exactly what she's doing.
It's just going on and on and on. So
then Kevin starts sending Missy nude
photos of himself unsolicited
clearly.
>> Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I got this
fact wrong. Kevin starts sending Missy
nude photos of her
>> getting in and out of the shower at his
house. Also, photos of her brushing her
teeth in the bathroom only could have
been taken with some kind of hidden
camera hidden in the in the bathroom
while she was a guest. Sorry, I got that
fact wrong. It's a very important fact.
Well, I feel like mom's going to lose
her uh Airbnb.
>> Yeah, I'd say so. I'd say so. It's a
bing. Another message that came with the
um came with it. And he goes, "Now send
me a little video of you rubbing that
tight little pee or I will send out
these pics to everyone. It's up to you."
>> What do they call this when it's
extortion or something like that?
>> Yeah, at this point it's extortion.
>> Um up to up to that point it had just
been harassment. Right. Right. As you
can imagine, Missy's terrified. And uh
and so she contacts the FBI who takes on
this case.
>> So he doesn't get a picture. He doesn't
get a little video.
>> The Yeah. The FBI contacts Facebook to
preserve the records. The agents begin
to look into Kevin's background. And
they see that he has multiple historic
arrests for stalking women and violating
protective orders,
>> including an arrest for assault with a
deadly weapon.
Okay, again, these texts are from the
court records. The whole thing is just
awful, right? This is the worst creep in
the world. And Missy had every reason in
the world to be scared
>> and and we're going to get we're going
to get butchered in the comment section
because we're laughing.
>> It's not funny. It's not funny. This is
not cool. It's not funny.
>> Inappropriate.
>> What is funny though is my acting
performance and that's what you're
laughing at. And I get that. I get that.
You and I are both horrified by this.
>> So, they review the evidence. FBI
conducts a search warrant at Kevin's
house. The agents arrive. Kevin runs
upstairs and barricades himself in his
own attic. H it takes two and a half
hours to get him out. Um and the agents
interview him in the garage. Uh during
the interview, Kevin's like, "Yeah,
yeah, I remember her. I remember Missy."
Um and the and he remembers the
circumstances surrounding her abrupt
departure. He admitted to sending
several harassing messages to her, but
he said she never responded. So, he
didn't even know if she was getting
these messages.
>> So, I had to continue. I mean, I I
thought I was talking to myself. Um,
>> Kevin admitted that he did this to
demean her. Those were his words.
>> And uh and he has messed with many other
people on the internet in the past. He
told the agents and people do it all the
time. People mess with each other on the
internet. That's what you do, right? In
his mind, he's just one of these
internet trolls.
>> No, it's not what you do.
>> I agree. This guy's horrifying. Agents
kind of lean in on him on the filming
her in the bathroom. He first denies it.
These agents have been trained in proper
interrogation techniques. Kevin admits
to filming her in the bathroom with a
cell phone that he hid in a basket, a
wicker basket on the bathroom shelf
>> and uh the agents seize his iPhone
pursuant to the search warrant and find
all the evidence they need. Kevin is
charged with cyberstalking.
>> Okay.
>> Pleads guilty.
What do you sentence him to?
>> Five years. What do you think? Five
years
again. He never laid a hand on her.
>> Yeah.
>> Does have a criminal history of this
type of thing, right? So, you want the
judge wants to send a message uh and
scare the heck out of this nice woman.
I mean, I'm gonna I I mean, I want to go
down like like to maybe three years, but
five years seems, you know, five years
he's got he's this is not he's if he's
got all these other charges, he's got
probably a significant
um criminal history and cyberto, you
know, I I would say five years.
>> Five years. So, 60 months is your guess?
>> Yeah.
>> Correct answer, Matt. 40 months.
>> Damn.
Dang, I thought it was okay.
>> I was pulling for you.
>> I feel like you are pulling for me.
>> Matt Cox.
>> Yes.
>> You like romantic comedies?
>> Of course.
>> Yeah.
>> No.
>> No. But I'll watch them, you know.
>> I like a good romcom as long as the com
the comedy part is good, right? Um
>> I loved Wedding Crashers. That's a good
one. Does that count?
>> I would say that's a romantic comedy.
Yeah. Probably then that one leans more
comedy. But um yeah, I like a romcom.
>> Okay. Okay. I mean, it's a it's kind of
like meeting your girl halfway.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, she gets the romance, you get
the comedy.
>> I want to tell you a story. And one
thing that's common, I think, in romcoms
is the idea of doing a grand gesture for
a woman to make her fall in love with
you
>> or to solidify your love.
>> Say anything. The saying,
>> yeah, right. Standing there with the
boom box. Uh, Peter Gabriel's In Your
Eyes. I'm not going to sing it, but you
you get the gist.
So, there's a manufacturing plant in
Paris, Illinois called North American
Lighting Company,
big employer in the small town, right?
And they're doing good business. One
day, someone calls the company
switchboard and says that there is an
explosive device in the plant that would
soon explode.
2 minutes to detonation, the voice on
the phone said. The entire plant was
evacuated. Right. right? They can't take
any chances,
>> right?
>> And everyone's standing out there while
the the police or bomb squad are
clearing it.
>> They did the economic study and found
that that by evacuating the plant for
that for the rest of that day, which is
how long it took, the company lost
$400,000
in production revenue,
>> right? They're doing good, but you got
to, you know, you got to keep the
assembly lines moving. American
manufacturing, right?
So, the local police call the FBI to
investigate and the agents discover that
the call came from an internet burner
phone number. Okay? Like a Google voice
number or something like that.
>> And then uh but the agent, they train
FBI agents pretty well who do these type
of things, subpoenas the internet phone
provider. I don't know if it was Google
or some other company to get the IP
address of the person who established
that phone number. You get, you know
what an IP address is, right? Yeah. like
you you know not everybody does. And um
>> where did they lead them?
>> They traced the residence to a uh a
residence in nearby Clark County,
Illinois.
You know, not terribly far from the
plant. The home with the internet
connection belonged to a kid named not
grown up 29y old guy Justin Switzer.
And uh the agent interviewed Switzer and
he confessed to making the threatening
call. He just gave it up.
Why?
>> Why would you do this, Justin? Why? Why
on earth would you do this?
>> I feel like is he an employee, wanted a
day off or what? What happened?
>> Justin told the agent that the reason he
made the threat is cuz his girlfriend,
relatively new girlfriend,
>> Mhm.
>> was working at the plant and he wanted
to hang out with his girlfriend,
$400,000. And so, uh, this grand
romantic gesture is what he did to get
her out of work that day so they could
hang out, play Xbox, make love, watch
Netflix. I don't know.
>> So, um,
>> was she in on it?
>> No. But Matt Cox, he did this for love.
Okay.
>> Feel like a judge is going to be moved
by that. I don't feel like there's no
downward department.
>> I don't know. Is the judge a man or a
woman?
>> Department.
>> Downward departure.
>> Departure.
>> Yeah. I mean, again, this is the grand
gesture that a lot of women are looking
for if you want, you know, based on my,
you know, romantic comedy watching and
Tik Tok viewing. So, he pleads guilty.
Uh, US Department of Justice, not a very
romantic agency. Um,
>> was the judge female or male?
>> Um, I don't know.
>> And was he handsome? If it was a female
judge and he was handsome, she'd
>> then what' you do?
>> So, they um
they
>> arrested him.
>> They arrested him. He was charged with
making this the the uh terrorist threat
a threat. Well, not not not terrorist
threat would be something with a
political ideology. Um okay, you know, a
explosive device threat, the b- word.
>> Um
and he pleads guilty.
>> Um you can attribute an economic loss of
uh $456,000
to him. Uh how much time you going to
give him? Let's say he's got no criminal
history.
for this grand romantic gesture.
>> No, I think that counts.
>> You're not buying the romance. I don't
think that counts. Hardhearted
>> plays into
probably a downward departure for
stupidity. It's like you didn't It's not
like you you know you've
>> Okay. Well,
>> he didn't understand what he
>> before you tell me the sentence. You
think his girl waits for him to get out?
>> No,
I think that was over shift sailed.
>> Um I don't know. I think
I'm five years. 60 months.
>> Five years. That's your guess. 60
months.
>> Yeah. Because I feel like that's it's
it's in the category of like not setting
a fire as bad as like arson, but it's
it's still very it's still very serious.
Although you're just you did it because
out of stupidity.
>> Um
>> no one got hurt. Okay. But there was no
device,
>> right? There was a huge loss to that
company.
>> I don't know. I I I'm maybe 5 years
might be too much, but let but whatever.
Let's say five years. I think 60 months.
>> 60 months is your answer. Yeah. Is that
your final answer or do you want to talk
yourself out of it?
>> No.
>> You're not buying the mitigation for the
romantic.
>> No, because I'm doing so bad at this
point. I don't
>> Yeah, I'm doing bad. You're doing good.
You're doing good. You got You nailed
the Sean Kingston one.
>> How much is this?
>> 41 months in prison.
>> Oh, we are we close. Am I close? That's
close. That's it.
>> What's 80%?
>> 50 times. Eight is 48.
>> Oh, no sir, Senator. 41 months is what
he got. Right outside the uh this was an
airball. He also was sentenced to pay
the company restitution of $456 million.
>> Million.
>> I'm sorry. No, 46. Sorry. $456,000 in
restitution. Um, and I don't know if
he's ever going to pay.
>> Okay,
>> this this story is horrifying and and
I'm not even like joking. um 14-year-old
Arkansas girl named Sarah fails to get
off the school bus,
>> right? So, um mom
>> fears the worst, right?
>> So, she was never on the school bus,
>> right? Well, I mean, we don't know,
right? We we just know that she doesn't
get off the school bus that day at
school. Um local police called in to
investigate the disappearance.
uh investigators um
investigator police investigators got to
give them credit they did a good job
begin like kind of going through the
house searching her electronic
communications you know can we get into
her computer you know where just you
know maybe I don't think they have her
cell phone what they find out is that uh
she had been using her Xbox and
communicating on the Xbox I guess when
you're playing video games you can talk
to people and things like that I'm not
an Xbox guy
>> um and she was communicating with a
42-year-old guy named James
>> Milder
again. She's 14 and she's talking to
this guy and uh and they go to see James
Milder and he's also gone, disappeared
in the wind. No one knows where he is,
right? The recovered Xbox messages, I
guess. Can you send instant messages on
those? Like text messages?
>> Yeah, you can you can send direct
messages.
>> Okay. Yeah, cuz those those were
recovered by the police. And they show
this pattern of grooming where James is
convincing Sarah that they're in love
and should run away together. again,
creepy 42 year old guy, 14-y old girl,
like every parent's nightmare.
>> So, six weeks they're they're trying to
find them.
>> Uh they're searching for Sarah and
James.
>> Uh during that time,
>> well, I was going to say when when was
this? Like, you would think that one of
these two have a cell phone. Like, James
is a grown man. He's got to have a bank
account or a cell. He's got to be
trackable.
>> Um
>> or is he take he must be taking
precautions or something.
>> Yeah, they're they're not finding him
through any kind of normal electronic
means. Okay.
>> Um, during this investigation, it was
revealed, this was not presented upfront
from my understanding, that James had
dated Sarah's mother 10 year 10 years
earlier when Sarah was four years old,
the little girl. After the relationship
ended, he maintained his infatuation
with Sarah, right? He had his eye on
this girl for 10 years. Uh, and uh, you
know, before he made his move,
>> waiting for her to be 14 years old so he
could pounce.
>> Mhm.
>> The cops arrest somebody for something
else, like something completely
different, and the guy's ready to play
Let's Make a Deal. And says, "I know
where James and Sarah are." Directs them
to a well-provisioned mountain cave.
The police go to this cave and they find
that the that James and Sarah had been
living in this cave the past six weeks
since her uh disappearance.
The police find them. They insist that
they are now man and wife.
Uh Sarah confirms that the relationship
had been sexual. James immediately
placed under arrest. The police call in
to shore up the case for federal
prosecution because the penalties in the
federal system are just higher. They're
just more serious for stuff like this.
Um, James plead guilty.
What was his sentence?
And I'm gonna give you a hint. You could
give it to me in years.
>> You're not going to do a whole lot of ma
monthly math.
>> Um,
>> the hook being the use of the Xbox to
kind of set up the whole thing is
interstate wires and furtherance of
functionally a kidnapping. So I'm I'm
thinking about a German guy. I think
I've told you this. There was a German
guy at Coleman
>> and he had been in communication. He was
probably
40 years old, 45 years old maybe. No,
maybe by the time I I was 50. He'd been
locked up a while, but let's say 40 45
or 50. He had thought he was
communicating with a sexually curious
14year-old boy.
>> I think I see what coming. What's
coming? It turned out to be a
45-year-old pissed-off FBI agent.
>> Yeah.
>> Um in from Germany.
>> Mhm.
>> Where, by the way, it's not illegal.
>> Yeah.
>> Got on a plane, flew to America,
>> was arrested at the airport.
>> Yeah.
>> He got 20 years. Was that a plea or did
he go to trial? I don't know. But he got
20 years.
>> And of course, his whole argument was, I
was in my country. What I was saying and
doing and was not illegal in Germany.
>> Yeah. um you came came to the United
States to to meet the kid.
>> And so the American government had no
tolerance for for his for that excuse.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh
>> um he was and the whole time he had been
there years five not that maybe five or
six years that I I that I think he by
the time I probably saw him Yeah.
>> laid eyes on him.
>> He had been arguing or making petitions
to the consulate, right? to the German
cons to try and help me get moved to
Germany because they'll let him out
almost immediately
>> and they were hearing they were having
none of it.
>> No.
>> Yeah. And he's like, "But it's not
illegal. You should help me." Like the
law says that they and they were like,
"Yeah, fella.
>> Germany is not going to risk their their
special relationship with you."
>> Right.
>> These video game platforms are a real
problem as far as predators going after
kids. There's one called Roblox. R O B L
O X. It's a video gaming platform. You
can kind of design your own games. And I
did a story the other day about a guy,
you know, another grown guy who um who
romances a like 13 year old girl in
Estonia and uh and he like he's a
Tallahassee guy and he's getting ready
to fly to Estonia and uh and finally the
girl the girl's mom sees like that he
like rented an Airbnb. He went out and
got himself a passport. He gets on the
plane to fly from Tallahassee to
Atlanta, then Atlanta to like Germany,
and then Germany to Estonia.
>> Serious. The
>> day before he's ready to fly, the girl's
mom searches her the 13-year-old girl's
phone, contacts the local police, who
contact the FBI agent, the legal
attaches at the US embassy that covers
Estonia, who called the FBI in
Tallahassee and said, "You get on this
guy." They follow him to the airport.
They get on the plane with him. They fly
to Atlanta and arrest him at Atlanta
airport for exactly the same crime that
you described.
>> So, and it's interesting because what's
what's the Teeter Predator guy's name?
>> Chris Hansen.
>> Chris Hansen. I met him at a FBI
conference years ago. Super nice guy.
He's he's everything he seems to be. He
really cares about this stuff. He's
right now preparing a documentary on the
use of Roblox, this particular platform,
uh, for, you know, child grooming and
child, you know, this all the stuff that
he cares so deeply about. So, um, very
similar story to the one you had. Um,
and kind of a similar story to this, but
this one's more local,
>> right?
>> What are you going to give this guy as a
sentencing?
>> 240 months, right? 20 years.
>> 20 years would be your guess.
>> Correct answer. 30 years.
>> Oh, yeah. He got his hand he got his
hands on somebody. Yeah. You know what
I'm saying? The other guy didn't.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's the I think the fact
that it was consummated and that he had
>> what we'll call coercive sex with the
girl um I think made the difference in
that it wasn't just like a plan that got
thwarted by an undercover.
>> Yeah. All right, parents watching this,
keep an eye on your kids and who they're
talking to in their video games. All
right, the story starts with a really
sad incident. Um a two police officers
in Las Vegas killed in the line of duty.
Um, Alan Beck and Igor Soldo were their
names. Uh, I don't know exactly the
situation, but uh, yeah, I think they
were shot and killed in the line of
duty. Total tragedy. Las Vegas. Uh, the
community, it rocked the community,
right? Because these guys were like
pillars in the community. And so there's
a local politician named Michelle Fior.
She served in the Nevada State
Legislature and I think at the time she
was in the Las Vegas City Council and
she also had lost some elections. She
ran for governor of Nevada and lost. Um
she also ran to be state treasurer and
lost.
>> So, you know, kind of a pol act very
active politician, but
>> kind of
>> well, she's trying.
>> She was elected to the Las Vegas City
Council in the Nevada State Legislature.
So, she's not some
>> she's not just not break she's not
breaking that.
>> She's not a wannabe. Yeah. She just, you
know, that's I guess that's the
business, right? If you're in local
government, you're going to win some,
you're going to lose some, and you try
to level up. So she decides to um to
incorporate a charity fundraiser to
build a memorial statue for these two
police officers killed in the line of
duty. And um and so she raises $70,000
from donations for this. And um but
instead of building the statue we Okay.
>> Yeah. What?
>> We've heard this one before.
>> We have not heard this one.
>> Oh, we haven't?
>> I promise you, you have not heard this
one before.
>> No. Um maybe I'm getting
>> No, I I I actually the problem is I
think it's it's common. It's very common
the somebody will start it start it.
People donate and then they don't build
anything,
>> you know?
>> Right. And that's exactly what happened.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So Michelle did not build the
statue. She used the money to give
herself plastic surgery.
>> Feel like we've heard this
>> if you didn't hear it from me because
this is going somewhere.
>> Oh, okay. Sorry.
>> Uh and and to pay for her daughter's
wedding. Maybe I did tell the story, but
I didn't have it. I I I didn't have
Here's what's weird, though. I I didn't
have a sentencing if I would have told
you the story in the past
>> because it because it just h Oh, yeah.
You know what? You probably told it
hadn't happened yet, right? It's pretty
recent.
>> Why? When was she?
>> Like she wasn't sentenced.
>> Let's continue with this.
>> All right. So, I'm now I'm because I
remember making fun of the fact that she
wasn't that good-looking to begin with
and she should have saved her receipts
from the plastic surgery. I remember
telling you that. Um, but there's enough
but we're getting to the point. Um,
after a while people realize that these
this police memorial never materialized.
FBI opens up an investigation into her
reckless spending
>> and um and and you know and then finds
out that she spent the money on this
wedding and spent the money on uh on the
plastic surgery. Federal grand jury
indictes her on fraud charges. Michelle
pleads not guilty. Takes it to trial.
government evidence overwhelming, right?
Slammed her at trial. In fact, I think
her daughter took the stand and like
pled the fifth or something crazy like
that.
>> Um, she's found guilty by the jury.
>> Okay. And this is the point and why I'm
bringing this to you today. What do you
think her sentence was? $70,000.
Took it to trial.
Disgusting crime. Right. This one's a
scumbag.
>> What do you think her sentence was?
three year maybe 30 months.
>> 30 months.
>> It's just not not that much money.
That's the problem. The money is not
astronomically high. Yeah. But she takes
it to trial.
>> She's got some enhancement,
sophisticated means, you know, wiring
the money,
>> multiple victims.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but even then that's still I don't
think it's maybe maybe Yeah. 3 years, 36
months. She went trial. 36 months. 36
months. Is that right?
>> Okay. So Colby, um, there's gonna have
to be an asterisk over this one, and I
don't think there should count against
Matt because the answer is that two
weeks before her sentencing,
>> Uhhuh.
>> she was pardoned by President Donald
Trump.
>> Oh my god.
>> Fairly recently.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> Yeah. And so again, let's let's set this
one aside. I'm curious. Do you know
anyone in all of your time in the
federal prison system who ever got a
presidential pardon?
Um,
do I
>> I don't Maybe not. No, they were, you
know, uh, commutations.
>> Oh, really?
>> Met people that have gotten caught.
>> Commutations when they let you out of
prison.
>> Yeah, but you keep the conviction.
>> But you keep the conviction. A pardon
means that the conviction goes away.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I, you know, I feel like I I feel,
you know, Pete would know.
>> Yeah. Pete would know.
>> Yeah. It's Were your fellow inmates all
kind of jockeying for a presidential
pardon? No. Was it like a thing? Like is
everyone just sitting there writing the
president saying, "Please pardon me," or
No, it's not even a thing.
>> No. No. I don't think I don't think
people even even consider that. Uh
because at that time, prior to Trump, it
was
um
>> a lot of red tape through the Department
of Justice.
>> Well, Obama
is the one that I know gave a bunch of
commutations to. Uh, and I actually and
and I mean when I I don't mean I meant
like five guys that Obama gave
>> like nonviolent one drug offenders or
>> Yes. Guys that got like you know 30
years or or 40 years and you're like for
what? You know cuz they went to trial
and they wouldn't testify against their
wife. Yeah. And they
>> in this one guy's case like he got 30
years and he didn't testify against his
wife and literally by by he's not even
in the pin yet. She's already off you
know sleeping with some guy and she ends
up getting busted. F five years later he
gets 10 years and you know what I'm
saying? It's like like what are you
doing bro? I you should have cut her
throat. Yeah. You know. Um but he what
his commutation this happened a lot.
Initially guys were just getting let
out.
>> Mhm.
>> And then Obama but they're coming right
back.
>> Oh really?
>> Well because because the the the way
they were doing was saying we're going
to let you out of prison. Not realizing
Obama doesn't the administration didn't
realize at that time you can't let these
guys out. They have no money. They have
nowhere to go.
>> You you have to do a step down process.
>> Right. And so
>> there's no halfway house. Uh
>> yeah. Why? Why? Why? I have no sentence.
I can't go to a halfway house. So what
they started doing with these guys is
saying, "Look, you have to go, we're
taking you out of the pen."
>> Mhm.
>> Put you in a low. They they would go to
like the pen. They leave the pen, go to
the medium. 6 months to medium, go to
the low.
>> Mhm.
>> And then you have to go through the drug
program,
>> go to halfway house, get out.
>> That makes more sense.
>> Those guys, almost all those guys were
fine. Like they did not come back.
>> Interesting. Um, so yeah, there were
several guys I met that had commutation,
but no, nobody that and and they weren't
jockeying for it. And the people that
I've heard that like Trump is letting
go, a significant amount of the people
that Trump's letting go,
>> you know, to me are like are guilty. And
I mean, like they're really guilty.
>> Well, yeah. I mean, like Michelle Fiory,
there's no question about her guilt and
the fact that she, you know, did like,
you know, took money for the memorial
for these dead police officers and then
uh and then stole the money and it was
like two weeks for her sentencing. Um,
what do you think about that?
I I I think that a lot of the times I I
understand someone goes to they they
don't feel they're guilty. They go to
trial. They never really admit they're
guilty. It's questionable. They end up
getting 10 years and the president kind
of comes through after a year or two and
says, "I'm going to cut you loose
because the truth is you probably did
not deserve 10 years
>> to begin with."
>> Yeah. We never found out what she would
have been sentenced. I mean, it's not
like the judge says like, "Well, in two
weeks I was going to give you a
>> Right." But that seems pretty clear that
that one seems pretty clear.
>> I think your viewers may sense my
annoyance at this at this one, but you
know what? I don't have a problem with
it. Okay, so I did some research into
this.
>> The White House and the US Department of
Justice has never released a statement
about why they pardoned her. However,
she was a Republican and campaigned very
hard for Trump um during the election
and Nevada was a swing state, a
significant swing state, you know, and
so
>> um you know, Trump, whether you like him
or you hate him, he rewards loyalty and
she was kind of a loyal soldier probably
planning for this because she knew she
had this legal problem hanging over her
head.
>> Um I
>> Here's my Same thing with Chris Le.
>> I'm all about the process.
>> Yeah. And the constitution allows the
president to give a pardon to whomever
he pleases for whatever reason he wants
or no reason at all. So I have no
problem with this.
>> However, if I had a time machine and
could go back to the founding fathers, I
would say, "Guys, maybe we need to
rethink this pardon thing, right? It's a
holdover from back in the monarchy days
when kings could do this." Remember the
founding fathers were all coming out of
a monarchy and they're trying to figure
out what parts of the monarchy they
should keep and what parts of uh you
know of like you know democracy they
should employ and they invented this
system that we have now. I don't like
the pardon power of the president. Um if
>> but he does have it.
>> He does have it right. And so and
there's no strings attached to that
pardon power that he has. So I have no
problem with President Trump pardoning
her even though I think she's a guilty
scumbag.
>> But you don't need to pardon innocent
people.
>> Yeah. Right. You pardon guilty people.
>> I just And I feel like pardon should be
and once again, I'm not bashing anybody
because, you know, Biden pardoned
people. Of course,
>> Trump uh um uh Obama did. I I you know,
but I feel like I feel like you should
give a reason. You know, there should be
a reason. Like you should say, "Hey,
this person's guilty, but they got too
much time."
>> Before Biden, there is a office at the
US Department of Justice with the Office
of the Pardon. Uh and and so you would
apply for a pardon. And there was a form
and you would send it to the US
Department of Justice. They would vet it
out. Oftentimes they would contact the
FBI agent who worked the case and say,
"Hey, do you remember what happened
here? Here's a question here. This guy
applied for a pardon. Did he cooperate?
Did he show remorse during the
investigation? Could you pull the case
file and answer these questions about
him?" And so there was this really clear
vetting process and then they would kind
of go up the hill and then we go to the
polit political people at the White
House and say, "Is there going to be
political blowback if um if this pardon
is is granted?" And so there's an entire
process that went out the window. Well,
Bill Clinton did a a pardon based on a
donation to his library
his last day in office by uh woman named
Denise Rich uh who needed her husband
pardoned to get out of prison. And then
Biden pardoned everybody under the sun.
Trump, you know, did a bunch of pardons
and needed pardon the January 6ers and
stuff like that. And so that that
vetting process that had been in place,
I don't know what those guys are doing
now. there's like the May tag repairman
sitting around DOJ or reading letters
from prisoners um you know in so um but
again I don't have a problem with that
the president can pardon whomever he
wants for whatever reason he wants or no
reason at all I may not be thrilled with
that but I don't like the I don't like
the pardon power but that's the way it
is you would need a constitutional
amendment to to rip that away and
there's no stomach for that
>> yeah I I like that Biden so you know
they let a ton of guys out like for
COVID right
>> they let them out put them on ankle
monitors Yeah.
>> And then there were several time then CO
was over. So you got out, you've been
out for three years, you've got a job,
>> you're working, you're back with your
family.
>> And so the so the BOP was and the DOJ
were saying, "Okay, well CO is over.
Some of these guys have five, six years
left. We want to yank them back and put
them back in prison. Are you out of your
[ __ ] mind?" Yeah. Like these been
free for like are you torturing these
guys? And so, so then they kept
extending it, extending it, and then
Biden just before he got out commuted
all their sentences and said, "Okay,
you're now on probation." So, we're
commuting the portion your of your
>> um incarceration. I forget what they
call that when you're inside. Yeah.
We're commuting that and now you're
you're on pro. So, now you have to serve
your you had two years probation
afterwards or or supervised release or
your five years or one year. So, you're
going straight into that and that's what
all those guys did, which I thought,
hey, that's a good move. Like, that's I
get it.
>> What do you think of the pardon power?
Should we have the Should we have a
>> I think we should have a pardon. I I
just feel like that they should and and
and once again, I'm not saying
I'm not I I don't care what the reason
is. I just want a reason. I feel like
you have to you have to you let's not I
don't want to say justify it because
you're justified in your own mind. Yeah.
You But I need to give an explanation to
say play devil's advocate. Should that
should that pardon power be bestowed
upon the president of the United States?
Is he the proper person in which you
would bestow that pardon power or would
you rather see some something more like
a parole board revisiting these issues?
Maybe two, maybe both of them. I just
think that the sentences that they give
people are so outrageous. I mean, they
really are. And there's there are times
when it's just like I mean, I mentioned
the guy Brandon, right? the the guy that
was the the bouncer that the girl came
in and there's a girl that had come in
the club several times and he's a
bouncer. If you met the guy, you think
of a bouncer as a tough guy. Brandon
wasn't a tough guy. Brandon is like 6'2,
but he's kind of I don't want to say
dopey. He's a nice guy, but he's he's a
big guy, but he's just one of those
naturally big guys. Doesn't work out.
He's just kind of a big guy. Just the
nicest guy. And this girl comes up to
him and and she's talked to him a few
times and she's like, "Look, I she and
he he knows she's kind of got a drug
problem, like maybe she does, but most
young people that are coming in out of
the club, they they're on some kind of
drugs periodically, whatever." And he
doesn't know if she's hardcore or rec
recreational. But she comes in, she's
like, "Listen, uh, do you know anybody
that sells um oxies?" And he's like,
"No, but I I know a guy that sells," he
goes, "I think he sells H." He said,
"And he might be able to get you some."
Yeah. He's like, "I don't really." And
she goes, "Can you hook me up with him?"
He goes, "Yeah, I'll give you I'll gives
her his phone number."
>> Yeah.
>> She goes to him. He says, "I don't have
Oxy. I got H." Here's how it works.
Gives it to her. She dies. They go to
Brandon and say they want to give him
like 10 years. Like, 10 years? I give
her a number. I didn't make any money.
Not a drug deal. I didn't drug
conspiracy type anything to do with it.
And um they're like, "Yeah, you traded a
couple text messages back and forth to
get her. You know, you hey, can I give
her this girl number?" Blah blah. I know
her. she's good blah blah blah like and
he goes to trial and he loses and he
gets like 20 years and you know he was
in jail for for 20 and I just feel like
like
>> let me agree with you that guy deserves
a pardon or a commutation. Right.
>> Right.
>> Should that be up to the whims of a
politician who may be facing reelection
and political um blowback for doing this
or political praise for doing that? you
know, a a an elected official, a king
that we've elected, um, who can just
wave his magic wand and make that prison
go away, or should there be a process, a
board, a a another level of appeals of
judges who may be compassionate like you
and I are about a guy like that, or
should it be up to the president of the
United States who may have his, you
know, his own biases at play? So, I
mean, I think everybody has biases, but
my my fear the pro my real problem with
the president is it's so hard to get
there.
>> They make it so difficult. This is a guy
who has a very busy full-time job.
Whether you like him or you hate him and
who regardless of who the president is,
he is preoccupied by a lot of stuff.
>> This guy's only hope is to get the
attention of the president of the United
States. That's what I'm saying.
>> I think I think it's a broken idea.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of broken ideas. I I
mean I and what you know what I was
going to tell you is I remember there's
this one kid who got 20 years who was
mailing
uh
>> he got 20 years there were two two guys
did the same thing there's the white kid
went to trial lost got 20 years there's
the black kid
>> doing the same thing went to trial lost
got roughly 20 years 20 22 years
whatever someone 18 very close sentences
within a few years
>> um Obama pardoned the black kid,
>> the white kid didn't get pardoned. And
there's tons of examples of the exact
opposite, but I remember he was walking
around and people were like, "Hey, bro,
whatever happened with your such and
such?" And he would go, "You know what?
This in prison means
race." And he would he'd walk by, he'd
go, "Wrong
color, bro. I'm the wrong color." And
you see what I'm saying? Like,
>> and that's what I'm getting at. So, in
order to So, again, that guy's freedom
is based at that point on whether he
could get the attention of the
president. That's what I'm saying. And
be sympathetic to the president. You can
just imagine the opposite could happen
where a racist president would choose to
pardon a good-looking white kid and not
like the black guy with dreadlocks,
right? It could it could break either
way.
>> I don't like that system. I again I
don't I think why not keep it with the
president and have why why would why not
have like an like you said like a like a
pardon um department or
>> there is but again the try getting
through that
>> and and the president. So, so you don't
go to them first and then the president.
So, they have the ability to do it and
the president does.
>> Both of them do. Both of them do. The US
Department of Justice's pardon office
can actually issue the pardon themselves
in their career people. They're not
political appointees and they will have
place in their their next election will
not be based on that decision.
>> Right. I could any kind of board doing
it where I just feel for
>> it's an awesome responsibility to give
to a president and and it certainly can
be open to abuse um by a president who
wants to curry favor with this this
group or that group or this race or that
race. I just think it's a broken system.
But I like the idea of having some kind
of board to do it. Sometimes I feel like
you need that that power. You need to be
able to have the guy go in and be able
to make a hard decision and it's not
polit and it and it is political and
nobody wants to make it and it's a
horrible decision and somebody has to
and you're going to get blowback and but
you know what I have the power to do it
and I'm going to do it. Like sometimes I
think you so I think they should at
least have that power. I don't think it
should be wielded, you know, crazy. But
>> here's what I was going to say. Take um
take Jess for example, right? Yeah. Been
arrested one time. Mhm.
>> went to jail, went to the Artat program,
got out, changed, did everything the art
told her. Changed her her people,
places, things, almost talks to barely
talks to her family because almost all
of them are on drugs. The only ones she
talks to are the ones that aren't on
drugs. And the ones that are on drugs,
never sees them.
>> She might text them through Facebook or
something. Oh, they put a post up and
they communicate through the post or
something. Mhm.
>> Uh you know very but went back to school
uh became a marine mechanic.
>> Mhm.
>> Just passed all the classes to do uh
become a captain. Worked for a boating
company or for a um
>> uh for a man a yacht management company
>> is around these
>> you know millionaires
>> uh you know doing amazing.
>> Yeah.
>> But did I tell you this? The other day
she went to they were going for like a
four-day cruise, right? So they bring
the staff, they got like three or four.
So they have the captain, which is her
boss,
>> and three and like three maybe four
stews cuz she'll also stew, right?
>> And so they're all going on and so all
of the people that are taking the yacht
out show up. It's like , at
night, whatever. They're showing up and
they're unloading stuff that they have
and one of the guys is giving. So the
stews all come out and they're helping.
One of the guys turns and says, "Hey."
And and is going to hand her
>> like an assault like like a a shotgun or
something.
>> And she goes, "Oh." Um he goes, "Oh, you
don't have to carry it. Don't worry.
It's fine. It's fine." He's like, "I get
it." And so the boss comes over and he's
like, "I got it. I got it." And he's and
but he's also kind of like cuz she was
like,
>> and then she's sitting there and they're
grabbing stuff. They're like, "Hey, can
you grab this?" She's like, "Yeah, I'll
grab that. I'm not I can't There's like
they got they got a case of bullets cuz
they're going out into international
waters and they're going to shoot guns.
>> Yeah.
>> Off the top of the or whatever.
>> Yeah. It's cool, right? Like I can see
that's fun. We can go out here and fire
an AK-47 in international waters or
something.
>> Well, so she turns around to her boss
and she says, "I can't go." And he's
looking at her like, "What are you
talking about?" She goes, she goes, "I
can't go." She said,
>> "She's still on probation?"
>> No, she's not on probation. But this is
the way she looked at it.
>> Yeah.
The way she and I look at it is we can't
even be around. Like you you think,
well, you can't have weapon. No, you
don't seem to understand. I'm so
terrified.
>> Yeah.
>> Having seen people come to prison that
were with somebody that had a gun, they
get charged with constructive
possession. So, you have a gun on you
and I know you have it. And so what
they'll charge me with is constructive
possession, which is like you knew you
couldn't have a gun, so you hung out
with Tom because Tom had a gun. And so
you're in constructive
>> for gangbangers and stuff,
>> right? But they'll do it with anybody.
You're driving in the car and this guy's
got a gun.
>> Yeah.
>> Or the guy will to take the gun and he
slides it under any under the seat and
then doesn't want to take
responsibility. Well, it's your car.
>> You're like, "Okay, I know it's my car,
but that's his passenger seat. Well,
he's not taking responsibility for it.
It's yours. and now I got to go to
prison because I'm I'm a felon. So she
looked at it and she went, "I can't go."
And and her boss was like, "Whoa, whoa,
come here."
>> What are you talking about? She
understand. She said, "First of all,"
she's like, "I can't be around guns."
>> Mhm.
>> I can't be around these guys with guns.
I don't know these guys. I don't know
that they're going to take
responsibility if we get pulled over by
the Coast Guard. She goes, on top of
that, she I have a captain's license.
I'm responsible for this boat. Even
though I'm not the captain, I am a
captain. So, I'm responsible because,
you know, if they search that boat and
they find drugs,
>> do you think these are reasonable fears?
You think she was overreacting? I And I
don't know. I'm just asking because
you're more
>> I think I was I was um I was glad she
made the decision.
>> Okay.
>> Do you see what I'm saying? Because the
>> play it super conservative.
>> Play it safe, man. There's too many
people like like we things are too good.
And so, I want to get her a pardon. I
just don't know how to go about doing
it. like how do I get
I can't go to some law firm and pay them
$50,000 to put together a package and
it's like oh well no you could fill out
the free package cut the [ __ ] [ __ ]
I'm going fill out a free package it's
never going to get there like it's going
to be one among thousands that's never
going to be you need somebody to to go
into the pardon zar and say hey I'm a
friend of Trump's look at this
>> right but isn't you're making my
argument for me this is a broken system.
>> It is. That's why I'm saying I like the
idea of having a parole commission where
you know everybody with you there. I'm
with you there
>> because she's perfect for this.
>> I mean, look at this Michelle Fiori
case, the Las Vegas lady. Um
statue ain't getting built. No one's
getting paid restitution,
>> right? She get she got to enjoy her new
face or her new boobs or whatever she
had done to herself. Her daughter had
this fantastic wedding with just no
repercussions, no justice for the dead
police officers, no restitution to the
victims. Um, there's a woman named
Miriam Adlesen, big Trump supporter. She
got the presidential medal of honor. Her
husband, who I guess was some Aden, big
who owned a bunch of casinos in Las
Vegas. She was she was she went bananas
on this and called this pardon a
debasement of presidential power. And
she's a huge Trump supporter. So again,
>> my my b my thing is in for a dime, in
for a dollar. If you're going to believe
that the pardon should exist and there's
no rules against it, uh, then Trump, you
know, did whatever he wants. That's how
it works. So, you got to kind of buy
into that system. I had only one case
that he got a pardon. It was I wasn't
the case agent on it, but I was on the
team. We talked about it. Governor Rob
Lgoyovich of Illinois. His sentence was
commuted and in in Trump's first term
and let him out. No one paid much
attention to it, but in Trump's second
term, Trump pardoned him
>> and uh I think at some point he was
going to be the US ambassador to Bosnia
or um or or something like that. Or not
Bosnia, the um
>> he was the one that was selling Obama's
>> Senate seat. Senate seat when Obama ran
for president, the seat became available
and the governor gets to kind of appoint
someone,
>> right? Because he was Obama was the
senior or a the junior senator from
Illinois at the time. Yeah. And so um
>> so he's taking bids.
>> Yeah. While we were on the wire and I
was running the wire on him.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yeah. I thought I told the story in your
show
first very first episode when we were
kind of doing this is your life, Tom.
Yeah. And I apologize to Colobby because
for having to tell this Michelle Fiori
story twice, but I thought that it
sparked an interesting story about the
pardon. And so now it's kind of because
when I first time I told it, we weren't
playing the game show and there was no
resolution to the case and I was
surprised by this resolution. All right,
I got one more story. Sadly, it's a bit
of a downer. It's not like a happy funny
jokey story. I know we like the jokey
stories here. Uh Erica was a civilian
employee of the US Navy. Okay, so not
like a uniform person, but worked for
the US Navy. uh she was stationed in the
Kingdom of Bahrain
uh you know small uh Arabic nation. Her
co-workers became concerned because she
didn't show up to work one day at the
embassy and um and so they call the
local police, the Bahrain police to
investigate. Uh they go to her
apartment,
silence. The cops there like break down
the door.
>> You know, their rules were different
than ours. Yeah, boring. What are you
going to do? And um and they find
Erica's body just stabbed to death.
>> Terrible murder. She was hidden under a
blanket. Not particularly well, but like
someone threw a blanket over her. Now
her only dependent that was living in
Bahrain with her was her 30-year-old
son, Giovani Pope.
He was also nowhere to be found.
>> Yeah. He did it obviously. He threw the
blanket because he felt ashamed and knew
the person, right?
>> Your your regular Agatha Christie.
>> Yeah. And that's something that they do.
Like they say it's personal. They you
cover up the body. They feel like
they're embarrassed or they
>> a prof a profiler would tell you exactly
that. Yeah. So you're good at this.
>> Uh
>> I did some research.
>> So a manhunt happens on this island
nation of Bahrain looking for Giovani
Pope. Local police find him. They arrest
him. Upon questioning by the Bahrain
authorities, and I don't know what that
questioning looked like, nothing good.
He confesses to the murder. He says he
killed his mother.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Right. He tells the investigators that
he killed her because she was blocking
him from achieving his life's dream of
returning to the USA to achieve stardom
in the fashion industry.
So he stabbed his mom to death.
>> Seems reasonable.
>> After I guess
>> after murdering his mom, he steals her
credit card to buy a plane ticket back
to the US
uh so he could be with his girlfriend.
Plot twist.
>> Yeah. I didn't see the girlfriend
coming. Not with the fashion angle.
>> Yeah, I thought the same thing. Uh and
follow his fashion dreams. Uh so
Bahrain's got kind of a problem, right?
They got this this guy on their hands,
US citizen. And so they call the US
embassy and they're like, "What do you
want to do?" And they and the US says,
"Well, you know what? There's a military
extr territorial uh jurisdiction act
which makes it illegal to kill um
American
woman basically a diplomatic immunity.
She was you know functionally a diplomat
um you can't kill a diplomat American
cannot do things commit crimes against
another American overseas. The idea is
Bahrain said fine, you know, American
victim, military situation, American bad
guy. We're going to send him back to the
US as long as the US promises to
prosecute him. And they do,
>> right?
>> Okay. Uh Giovani then gets turned over
to the FBI and NCIS
um to face American justice because
again she was a Navy employee. Um, he
gets brought to court in Maryland where
he pleads guilty to his mother's murder
in Bahrain.
How much time you going to give him?
And he's guilty of the murder pursuant
to the mil military extr territorial
jurisdiction act. And I'll give you a
little clue that um because I had a case
sim not similar to this, but a a murder
overseas functionally. Mine was on the
high seas. But the government doesn't
want to try these cases. Yeah. Right.
Just imagine the how difficult it would.
I mean event you're flying in police
from Bahrain who have to tell the story
of their questioning and you got to get
translators. The government does not
want to try this case and Giovani plead
guilty and to you know a plea with a
plea agreement.
>> How much time you given Giovani? I was
going to say 15 years before you said
any of that.
>> I'm not trying to talk you out of that.
I just want to give you some I want to
give you some my perspective that that
these overseas cases
um
it's the government understands that it
is a massive production to put on a
trial and so I'm not trying to talk you
out of your guess to be clear. I didn't
even know what your guess was. I just
want to present that to you.
>> Uh and then I was going to drop to 10
when you said that but now you said that
I'm back at 15. I'm back at 180.
>> This is for the game cuz it is 50%. I'm
at 180.
>> You don't need to do the math on the
months. You give me the years. I mean,
20% of a year is the same as 20
>> 15 uh 15 years. Yeah. 15 years.
>> 15 years is your guess.
>> Yeah.
>> Final answer.
>> Yes.
>> The final answer. Giovani was sentenced
to 16 years
>> in federal prison.
>> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> I was going to drop it to 10 when you
started saying these this is real. They
don't want to try these cases. They I
was like, "Oh, wait a minute. Wait a
minute."
>> Yeah. Like I had a murder on the high
seas case where guy throws his wife off
a girlfriend off a cruise ship for her
death.
>> I remember that.
>> Dozen years.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. I mean, it was in the context of
a fight, seconddegree murder, blah blah
blah blah blah, plead guilty. I mean,
everyone's every time I tell the story,
people like, "He killed her and only got
a dozen years. There's people who smoke
who got more than that." I don't
disagree. But
>> but I I'm and I wasn't involved in the
plea negotiations. I just investigated
the case. But there's no question in my
mind that that we did not want to bring
in a bunch of like Carnival Cruise
stewards and Bahamian police who
questioned him first and
>> and to like try to like rise to our
burden of proof. And so that was
probably a consideration in that case.
I'm sure it was the same situation here.
>> Yeah. I I had a buddy who was running a
a DAB,
Johnny. Oh, oh gosh. Uh Donnie
Shackleford. I would love to find
Donnie. Um and uh it's so funny because
um Albert Dur did a wood carving print
of where he's like he's got hair down
like like he looks like Jesus. It's him.
It's the artist kind of as Jesus. I
don't know what year it was like the
15400s or something.
>> And um and uh boy Donnie looked like
this guy. I mean long hair, you know,
he's a hippie. he traveled to travel
with the dead and he had these girls
that would pass out uh and all this
stuff.
>> And so he actually researched who had
the least severe punishment for drugs
and he went to the island of like St.
Martin and he went to the Dutch side of
St. Martin. I'm not even sure if the the
geography is correct on this, but he
went to that and the problem that where
it broke and he set up an entire lab and
he was doing it for like years, five,
six, seven years and running the lab and
he's shipping in these through different
ports or different um companies. He's
shipping in the product and then he's
taking that product and mailing it
>> to the United States, right? So to him
he's like, "No, I'm not even doing in
the US. you were mailing it. You now
have a conspiracy. It doesn't matter
that it it extends past the US border.
>> But he didn't know that.
>> Uh very smart guy. Very smart guy.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway, at one point the way they got on
to him was one day he was like, you
know, I would go there and fly there and
stay there for a couple weeks and run
and then come back for two months and
come back. He's like, and I he gets old.
>> Yeah.
>> And he said, there's nothing to do in
this little island. And so he said, you
know what? let's go ahead and make all
that we need for the next six months.
>> And so they doubled the order. And when
they doubled it, it now triggered
something. When they ordered it through
like China and the chemicals are coming,
>> the precursors,
>> the precursor, the amount was high
enough that it triggered some kind of
international investigation.
And he gets called one day to go into a
DSL. Is it the DS DSL?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. The the the liver UPS
kind of thing. It's like a FedEx, just a
lot of international work.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He goes into there and walks in.
He said there was a girl that was in
there. He said, "You just flirt with me
all the time." I was like, "Okay." Cuz I
walked in. I was like, you know, "Hey,
how's it going?" And she looked up at
him. She went, "Hey." And he was like,
he said, "I immediately thought,
>> well, that's not good. I mean, we
usually kind of have a little banter.
Like, what's
>> she scared to death
>> and she's like, "I'll be back in a
minute." And she turns around, walks
back. He's like, I now realize she was
like, ah, [ __ ] I gotta call the police.
>> Yeah.
>> And it wasn't even it wasn't a big call
because they were actually waiting for
him. So he ended up he ended up running
out of the back out of the store
>> because they they start he sees them
coming, right? He runs. He's like,
>> "You think you got outrun this problem?"
>> He's so When he told the story, he's
like, and I remember there was a boat on
the horizon. And I remember thinking,
"If I could just get to the bay and jump
in the bay, I can swim." Because he's I
know the guy that owns the boat and I
could just get to the boat. And I was
like, "What happened?" He said, "I
didn't get the boat. I didn't get the
bay." So they tackled me.
>> Had he gotten to the boat, they just
would have caught him the next day.
>> I caught him before he got to the boat.
So anyway, he was so funny. But um he he
ended up uh they It's funny, too, cuz
when they grabbed him,
>> they put him in a hotel. Well, it wasn't
a hotel. It was it was a prison. He was
But it was a hotel that they had
converted to a prison. He said, "Man, it
was nice." He said, "It was nice." He's
like, "I would have stayed there my
whole bid there." But he did that. He
stayed there for a year fighting because
they the US one he was fighting
extradition.
>> Mhm.
>> His codefendant after a year was like I
just want to see my family. I just want
so he says he's not going to fight
extradition anymore. And well he's like
if he didn't fight extradition then he's
going to cooperate against me and he
said and I'm not going to beat the
extradition. He's like which I wasn't
going to anyway although he thought he
was but he's going back and forth.
Eventually he finally signs and says
I'll come. He fought his case for like
five or six years through like four
different prosecutors came and left and
every time they would go first it was 30
years
>> right
>> cuz this is a very serious charge for
manufacturing
>> was went from 30 to to 20 then it went
to 15 with the next the next prosecutor
came in and said from 30
>> US prosecutors who were communicating
the deal
>> well no after a year he goes ahead and
and and comes to the United States Okay.
Right. Fighting extradition is just a
waste of time ultimately. I mean, it's
just hanging that you're not you're not
able to move on with your life. You're
spending all your time trying to like
explain to the German government why
they shouldn't hand you over.
>> Right. Well, you know what's funny? It
was the Dutch government. But you know
what's funny about that is that he the
whole time he was pissed off at this
girl, which was one of the I don't know
if she was one of the angels. Her the
girl's name her parents were hippies,
>> right?
>> Her name was Paradise.
>> You couldn't make this [ __ ] up. And so
Paradise, he basically abandoned him,
but she did pay his US attorney
$100,000. This guy, look, the article
that I had of him,
>> his attorney in the US, not the US
attorney.
>> No, I'm sorry. His his his American
defense attorney. So, first she paid
this guy in the do the one in the there
paid him and paid this one, but then she
just disappeared once he took well,
actually way before that she
disappeared. He um it was just so funny.
He was so he was so upset about it,
right? And I talked to him in while I
was still in prison. I talked to him
like after he'd been released like three
or four years later. Um spoke with him
on the phone and I and he was back with
Paradise. I was I thought you hated her
guts. He's like, you know, look, she was
scared, bro. She was scared.
>> The heart wants what the heart wants.
Yeah.
>> Like come on, stop. Um anyway, so what
happened was Yeah. When he got back
here, they were saying 30 years. And
then after like a year or so, that
attorney gets the that US attorney gets
moved. The assistant US attorney,
whatever, gets moved. New one comes in,
says, "I'm going to do you a favor. I'm
going give you 20 years."
>> He's like, "I'm not doing 20 years."
Because his whole thing is that he's
like, "First of all, they have to go
back. There's no evidence." He actually
took the evidence and had all like they
their their evidence is uh their process
is completely different. like they took
they photographed everything and then
they took it and he's like they're
selling it. They're using it in their
own uh in their own labs. They're
already it's done.
>> They they flew in had to fly in people
to because they acted like it was like a
lab or something, right? Like it's a
whole different thing.
>> Yeah. They flew in. They had to go
through they that special team coming.
Like you're not going to have that
special team come to the United States.
You're not going to have their
prosecutors come. You're not going to
have their people come. And he said the
same thing you did. Then it went from
20. Then then they got a new prosecutor
15 to 15 case. Yeah.
>> Then like a year later that prosecutor
for some reason gets moved. New
prosecutor comes in and says, "But do
you a favor?" 10. And he's like, "I feel
like if I could wait any longer, I'd get
down."
>> Every prosecutor has less and less skin
in the game. This is a reassigned case
that they did no work on. They just want
this off their plate.
>> Right. Like they want to take the new
case of the new
>> Absolutely. the case that they had were
there for the genesis of
>> Well, here's the thing. By that point,
he'd done like, like I said, like five
or six years.
>> Yeah.
>> So, the new prosecutor is like, "Look,
here's the deal.
>> We're going to recommend the drug
program."
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. You'll get a year off for that.
You'll get good time. He's like,
"Literally, you take this deal."
>> Yeah.
>> You're out of here in like two years.
And that's what happened. So, he
actually cuz he's still in the US
Marshals like the hold over is a private
prison actually he's being held in. And
so, he took the deal. He came he almost
went into ARDAP immediately. So he was
gone in in two years.
>> Well, how much time total include did he
spend in prison for this crime including
including his time while he was
tickering with the seven years? Six or
seven years.
>> Better than 20.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, better than 30. The
first deals were 30.
>> Uh I had no idea how serious that crime
but just the same thing. He's like, what
were they going to do? What are they
going to present? Like he's like, the
judge in the United States is going to
be like, you're not presenting evidence
that we can't see the evidence. Like
you're not where's this lab? Like, well,
the lab's gone. It's been, you know, so
you're not, well, then bring in the cops
that arrest him. Like, you want to fly
in 20 guys? You want to fly in like he
could make it a circus and very
expensive for a prosecutor that's like,
I don't want to deal with this [ __ ]
It's not even my case. It's not even the
guy's case that I got it from. Anyway,
so yeah, I I can I can see. Did you see
the documentary? And we can wrap this
up. I know you got Did you see there's a
documentary about a woman that
disappeared on a cruise ship on
>> Everyone's been telling me about that
cuz they know I did a couple cruise ship
crimes. I've not seen it, but um and and
I'm told it's kind of open-ended like
you don't you don't really know what
happened to her, but I I so I've only
I've only been Was it good?
>> I watched the whole thing thinking it
was going to be solved. It's not solved.
I It was over my problem. Which is my
problem.
>> When when it ended, I was like, "Get the
[ __ ] out of here."
>> Like kissing your sister. You don't get
it. Yeah, I get it. Not your sister. My
sister. I'm sure your sister's
delightful. Um I just got back from
Iceland and and and every Icelandic
person said the same thing to me and
then it's like, "No, no, no, no, no."
And they said, and they go,
>> "Do you know how many murders we have in
Iceland a year?"
>> Three, five,
>> one.
>> Oh, they we have one murder a year.
>> And so my son's like, "So after that
happens, everyone just sort of breathes
easy that it's not them for that year."
>> I was like I was like, "Well, how do
they decide who it is?"
The entire nation has, I think, 129
people incarcerated.
>> Oh my god.
>> Yeah.
>> In in you know, like in Norway Yeah.
They they had like a when I was there uh
because I went for a family reunion,
they had had a record amount of murders
that year or the year before and they
were talking was like a big deal.
>> Yeah.
>> It had gone from the from the average
number or the previous year had been
seven. It had jumped to like 13.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Sweden was like that for a while
where I think like one year the only
murder they had was their prime minister
who went for a walk one night and
someone walked up and stabbed him to
death on for political this is many many
years ago and that was like the one
murder of the year and there so yeah
other nations just aren't as murderous
as we are.
>> Yeah,
>> it's been a few months since I've been
here and that the last episode we did
>> took forever to break 100,000 took
forever to break 200,000 and but it's
still going. Yeah. It's got a real tail
on it.
>> It's got legs.
>> Got legs.
>> Yeah. So that's why it's like it's it
becomes more and more important just to
interview
>> interesting
>> interesting people good stories because
>> the better the story is the less it the
less the other things like the title and
thumbnail are going to help us jump out
the gate.
>> What do you think? What is that X
factor? What what is it that makes a
episode successful versus an episode not
successful? Well, I I in my opinion and
Colobby and I haven't Well, first of
all, we don't really know, but in my
opinion, it's like let's say you have a
an overall story and you're telling
different sto This is why I think yours
keep going and going and going because
it's a similar thing even though they're
different stories. Let's say you're
telling a story about being a um
whatever you're running a Ponzi scheme,
but in that Ponzi scheme, you've got
like different like there's you tell
this story and then you tell another
story and in those overall throughout
all the stories it's weaved together as
the main Ponzi scheme and these are
things that happened along the way and
they're kind of anecdotal stories along
the way and at the end you got caught
and then you went to p went to jail and
you know fought your case and blah blah
went to the stickiness of the story the
idea of keeping people on which yours is
different.
>> Yeah, cuz I'm giving short stories.
>> You're giving short stories, but the
common kind of thread is that they're
FBI stories. They're you're involved,
people like you. And and I think that as
a result, even though they're not even
though it's not an overall arching
story, main story, I still think that
you're the common thread. So, and you're
a good storyteller and people like it
and they they're, you know, you and I
joking around. So, they tend to watch a
lot of that video.
>> The chemistry.
>> The chemistry. Yeah,
>> we hear that all the time in the
>> Yeah, the comments are so effusively
nice about uh about how well we work
together.
>> You should do this once a week.
>> You should move to Jacksonville.
>> Yeah, I was just going to say they don't
seem to understand. You're driving four
hours.
>> Yeah. And with with no pay. Uh still has
not paid me a penny for the guest,
>> you know. And I'm
>> We're waiting for
>> I want to pay you. Colby says no.
>> You got this sexy studio that he built
out with a massage room, the Jenob
fridge.
>> This is your payment right here. Like
I'm just waiting for someone to call you
and say, "Is this Tom Simon, private
investigator?" "Yes, I found you at
Matthew Cox and I have a big case for
you."
>> The last time I was spotted in public, I
can't remember what airport. I travel so
much. Um I was Newark, Newark airport
three weeks ago. Someone stops me and
goes, "You're the guy." And I go, "What
guy?" And he goes, "You're the guy from
the Matt Cox show." And I was like,
"Fuck sake.
I can't duck this guy." But you do get
you do get clients. You've have you got
some clients or not really?
>> I've gotten clients from the show. I've
met people from the show. I've made
friends with you and Colby. I have so
much fun when I come here on the show. I
read all the comments on YouTube. 80% of
which say I'm a nice guy. The other 20%
think I'm terrible. I can live with
those numbers. And uh so this has been
nothing but upside for me. So thank you
for having me on.
>> Nice. That's all I want. A little
appreciation. That's what I was going
for.
>> I don't even watch your gas money. You
keep your filthy money. I'm here for the
friendship. I love this new studio.
>> Yeah,
>> this is amazing. You're Have you given
your audience a tour of your new studio
yet?
>> No, because it's not it's not like we
still have a few more things to do and
then we're going to take a bunch of
photos of it and I'll put it on the
because we have a website, but all the
website photos are dummy photos.
>> Oh, okay.
>> So, then I'll put real photos. We'll
have Colby behind the behind the desk.
It'll have me you and I talking.
>> Yeah, exactly. You know, like it'll take
pictures of all the different
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. I mean, for
for the people at home, there's an
entire buffet over there.
>> You have a refrigerator here. One is
full of booze. The other's full of water
and soft drinks. And there's a third one
filled with Jenkum because he has a lot
of exconsu coming in. He wants to keep
it real.
>> What is Jenkum? Why is that excon? What
is that?
>> Jenkum. Isn't that the booze that you
guys make in in prison out of like uh
ammonia and like cleaning fluids?
>> What do you call it? Hooch. They called
it hooch.
>> I think jenom's the same thing.
>> Is it? Okay.
>> Maybe maybe they call that
>> maybe I got it wrong. I got to hit my
urban dictionary.
>> I will I will find out. I'll I'll go.
>> Every time I've been inside, I was
allowed to leave at the end of the day.
So,
>> you never got the full experience.
>> I I got the full immersion. It is so
good to see you again. It's been a
couple months.
>> Thank you. Hey, you guys, I appreciate
you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the
subscribe button. Hit the bell so you
get notified of videos just like this.
Also, if you want to get in in touch
with Tom, we will leave his links in his
description uh in the description box.
You can go to his uh you can go to his
uh Instagram, Tik Tok. Uh it's Tom Simon
Investigates.
>> No, it's just Simon Investigations.
>> It's just Simon Investigations.
>> Simon Investigations.
>> On your thing, it says Tom Simon.
>> Well, that's my name, Tom Simon. But I
promise you that my website, my
Instagram, everything about it is Simon
Investigations. Follow the link, though.
Simon Investigations. He is an a
licensed FBI. No, no, a licensed Florida
investigator. Private investigator.
>> Private investigator in the state of
Florida. I also, if I can plug this real
quickly, anyone who's watching who is
part of a group or an organization that
or a company that has puts on a
conference or brings in outside
speakers, I'm trying to do more
speeches. I have speeches on how to
prevent fraud at your company, how to
use FBI behavioral science techniques to
increase sales in your business, and if
you're an investigator, how to
investigate financial crimes better. So,
I would love to give you a a discussion
about that. Maybe come talk to your
people.
>> Nice. Right. Nice. It was a good plug.
It was totally Yeah, it was good. All
right. See you. See you.
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