They called it the Stevie Wonder
blunder.
$187,000 from 15 different clients.
Stole $9 million with a fake Alicia Keys
concert. Shawn White convinces her,
"Sell me your arrow key for $2,000."
So, we doing this? We're ready. We're
rolling. We doing this? Mhm. Yeah. I'm
trying to think. Yeah. Hello, Mox. Oh
gosh.
Yes. Thanks for having me back. Yeah. No
problem. Do you cut that out? Uh, I
think I leave him in. I leave them in.
Yeah, you should leave it in. It's the
immediate It's the You're You're
completely uninterested in anything I'm
saying. And then Kobe says, "Okay, we're
rolling." Hello, Matt Cox. We're talking
about other guests on the show. I'm I'm
a jealous man. I want to be your one and
only Matt.
So, what are we here for today? I got
some crime stories for you. That's a
great idea. Some of them involve some of
them involve me. Some of them do not
involve me. Last two times I came with a
theme. One time I came with stories
about airplanes. One time I came with
stories about women. Yeah. This one's a
little bit of everything. If I mean,
maybe if we had a theme, it' be lawyers,
guns, and money because I got stories
about all three. Okay. Okay. Should I
just launch right into it? Yeah,
absolutely. What's the first one? You
ever been to Maui? I have been to Maui.
Yeah. Do you like it? Um, yeah. It was
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I was an FBI
agent in Honolulu. And the cool thing
about being an FBI agent in Honolulu is
you get to travel to the other islands
to work cases. And what's cool about
that is that Hawaii, unlike Florida or
any other state, when you're traveling
on business there, there's not like a
Hampton Inn downtown that you stay in.
You're staying at like a resort. Right.
Right. And so it's it's kind of an
amazing it's the best business travel
experience I've ever had because you're
staying at a resort, the guy, you know,
you walk down to the pool to have dinner
at the pool bar or whatever, you know,
and the couple had been saving up their
whole lives to go on this vacation or
their honeymoon, for example, and you're
just there on a business trip. And so
it's always a very good deal for me. So
there was a woman in Maui named Jadida
Dwaran. What is that? What's that?
Filipino. Okay. Filipino. Yeah. I'm
shocked you could say that. I'll never
be able to say that. And I believe it's
biblical. Okay. Which of course you
wouldn't know about. And she uh decided
to start soliciting investments from uh
friends of hers and people in her
church. She said that she had an in an
inside track to invest money with high
guaranteed risk-free Matt uh yields um
in she was going to be investing in a
oil well and a gold mine in Indonesia.
This sounds okay. This sounds very
solid. Matt Cox, what could go wrong? I
don't know. About a dozen of her friends
and church members and all that all
invest. She gets
$800,000 from out of a dozen people. She
gets $800,000. So, okay. These people
are $50 to $100,000 investments. Yeah. I
mean, some more than others. I think
there were a couple real big fish in
there. And but again, guaranteed rates
of return. This woman's in their church.
She would never lie to them, right?
Anybody who says guaranteed, it's
already it's already a scam. It's it's
riskfree money. I mean, it's it's just
it's it's gonna blow up. But anyway, I
think you're spoiling it a little bit
because what actually happened in Mad
Cox is that uh she did not in fact
invest the 800,000 in uh gold mine and
oil wells in uh Indonesia. She paid down
her own credit card debt, which was
pretty substantial to her credit, right?
uh she went on a lot of shopping sprees
and she made a um a deposit on a plot of
land in Maui that um was not refundable.
So she lost like I think 200 grand from
that. I don't even know how that worked
but but they uh you know you had to come
up with the rest of the money by that
point. She'd already spent it down and
she ran out of church members.
Non-refundable deposit. Exactly. So what
happens when these when uh these people
do not get start getting their
investment returns? Who do they call?
They call the FBI. They call the FBI in
Honolulu and I get the I get the case.
So, I was pretty new there at the time.
It was my first time going to Maui.
Pretty good deal, right? So, I hop on a
little plane, 45minute flight to Maui,
check into the hotel. It's this amazing
resort in the ocean. You, the taxpayers,
covered that for me because there's no
other place to stay. And um you know,
and I go and interview the victims. They
all told me pretty much consistent
stories. Get the financial records, take
a look at that. It all checks out. What
happened to the money? She's just
pissing it away on herself and says,
"It's time to go talk to Jed, right?"
So, I go to her house, knock on the
door. Uh, the Filipinos in Hawaii tend
to all have many, many people, extended
family members. I almost thought you
said look alike. No. Okay. No, no, no,
no,
no. You said they all You They live
together is what I'm saying. They like
they have sizable houses because many of
them are in the trades and so they build
like extensions on the house and stuff
like that. as many people living in
under the same house um who are you know
family members type friends aunties
stuff like that and uh and you know
knock on the door I is Jada home no
she's not here right now which is kind
of sucks right I hate it when they're
not home because then you like you
immediately have to make a decision yeah
do I leave my business card and the next
thing you know I'm getting a call from a
crim criminal defense attorney or do I
slink away and just kind of come back
later right and uh this time I left a
business card because this case is going
to get made with or without jid item
Yeah. Right. She's done. She's done.
Yeah. She There's too much evidence that
people deposit money and she spent it on
Yeah. herself. So, um, so I leave my
business card and I drive over to like
Maui Mall to kind of kill some time and
then I get a call on the cell phone and
it's Jada. Can I help you, sir? Uh,
Jada, I need I need to talk to you. Um,
can you meet me somewhere or can I come
back over the house? He goes, it's real
crowded here. A lot of family living
here. Um, why don't I meet you
somewhere? There's a restaurant chain
very popular in uh in Hawaii called
Zippies. It's like a Denny's. It's like
a Denny's if Dennis serves spam. Okay.
And uh Spam's a real delicacy. I know.
It's a big thing. Yeah. They eat it
unironically. And uh so we uh we go to
Zippies. We get a table. Got to order
something. Plate of fly fries. We're
going to share a plate of fries and uh
and some ketchup. And I'm and I
interrogate her right there at the
booth. And this is just you. Is there
somebody else with you? I had to bring
someone with me. I also wanted a new
agent. No, no, no. There there's two
agents stationed in Maui. I had another
agent with me just kind of doing a ride
along. He knew nothing about the case.
He's just there in case I keel over. And
uh Well, cuz I was wondering too you
knocking on the door. Like there's
always two agents. Yeah. Yeah. It was me
and an agent named Steve who um who's
stationed in Maui. And I I said, "You
don't even need to know about the case.
Just be there. Be there and avenge me if
she kills me." So um so we're eating
we're eating the I asked her about the
investment. She's kind of going on and
on about this went wrong and that went
wrong and and I said, "Stop. Listen."
And I go and I go, "You took the money
and you spent it on yourself." And I go,
I go, "Maybe you thought that something
would come through, but you told these
people you were going to be investing
their money in gold and an oil well.
Then when you get their money, you do
something different that different with
the money. You pay down your credit card
debt." And she say, "Yeah, but I had
other ways. I was going to maybe pay
them back later." And they just got
impatient. And just a lot of excuses.
It's their fault. It's No, it's always
their fault. And I said, "I get it. I
get it." I go, there's no way on God's
green earth you went into this with the
intent to steal their money. But after
you realized you had the money, then
maybe you took a look at your life and
took a look at the tremendous financial
hardship that you've been facing lately
and you thought this is my way out and
maybe I'll I'll be able to make some
money to pay them back and is that fair
to say? Yeah. And I go and then when it
came time to take more money from other
people that was probably then it was
just it kind of got away from itself,
right? Because he wasn't even paying him
returns. This wasn't even a Ponzi
scheme, right? And so, uh, just theft,
right? So, we take, you know, I'm taking
notes. I go, "Let's let's write this
out." And so, we kind of write out her
version of the story in first person,
turn it over, we review the statement
together, and she's like, "I don't
really like the way you said that." And
so, I'm happy to cross that out and have
and write up, you know, her version of
it on top. And I have her initial at the
top and the bottom of the page, and
initial at the crossouts we do. Then, I
have her sign the bottom while we're
eating fries together at Zippies. And,
uh, and then, um, you know, then she
signed the confession. I thanked her
very much. She said, "What happens
next?" Said, "It's not up to me. I got
to take this case to my supervisors. Got
to take this case to the prosecutor and
then we'll figure out where we go from
here." And then uh I shook her hand. I
took her photo. I said, "Listen, it's
going to seem kind of weird. I need to
get a photo of you." She goes, "Why?" I
go, "In case you disappear." And I go
and so I pull out my phone and I go,
"You know, no one ever smiles when I do
this." And I go, "But you're allowed to
smile. You look great. You're a
beautiful woman." And so she gives me
this big smile. She's sitting there at
the uh at the at the counter and at the
booth. Take a photo of her. Thank her so
much. We get in our respective cars and
leave. Month later came back, arrested
her, brought her back to Honolulu.
Oh my god. What is What What does the
FBI agent with you say? They see walk
off and say, "Wow, you just got her to
sign the confession." Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, I I've got I got that a lot from
my colleagues. I was really good at
getting the confession um throughout the
course of my career because I I went to
FBI interrogation schools, went to CIA
interrogation schools, I taught
interrogation, I teach interrogation now
to kind of regulators and internal
auditors and people like that. And so um
and so the agents often who I don't know
really well who are writing along with
me are like you're really smooth at
getting that and but it's all about
building rapport and trying to see the
world through their eyes. Empathy is the
thing, right? And
so you can fake that. Empathy is real.
Sympathy needs to be faked. Empathy does
not. Empathy is my ability to see the
world through your eyes. Sympathy is my
me feeling sorry for you. I don't feel
sorry for her, but can I see the world
through her eyes? Can I imagine the
rationalizations that she tells herself
that allows her to look in the mirror
every day knowing that she's ripping off
these people from her church? I can
imagine
that. I can imagine that. You can
imagine that, too. How much how much
time you going to give Jeda after she
pleads guilty in that case?
Um, does she I already know the answer
to this. She has no criminal history. No
criminal history. Okay. She's like at
this point like a home healthcare nurse.
I
mean, she changed churches. No. Um, let
me think how much 800,000. Wonder what
she was thinking. Dozen victims. Wonder
what she was thinking. Like, hey,
there's a lot of churches around here. I
can hit if I can get all of them for
800,000. But she's not even trying to
maintain the Ponzi or the the the scam.
the the ultimate acceptance of
responsibility as well, right? Like you
know, showed no resistance. Can't
literally did not have to meet with me
at all. Decided to come to Zippies with
me and sit down and share a plate of
fries. How much time you going to give
Jai to Doro Mox?
I want to say below two
years. Final answer. Yeah. Two years.
Two years. All right. One for one. I'm
keeping track today. I'm keeping track
today. One for one. You got the Madcock
scorecard. Good. Okay. Okay, we'll get
Well, I said below, but that's fine. Two
years or below. Let's go with that. All
right. Okay, that's pretty good. I'm
good. I'm happy with that. That seems re
and
it it's there's a bunch of people say it
was it's she deserves more time and you
know, but I don't know. Yeah. I She had
no I mean, she was also ordered to pay
restitution to her victims and I promise
you not a penny of that was paid. Yeah.
Well, and now she's she's a felon and
everybody knows what she did. It's a
small community. Real small. Yeah. It's
it's uh Yeah. I I think that's I think
and she's on probably paper for uh two
years, three years, something like that
usually. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that you
know, nobody's ever trusting her again
with their money. I don't know. I don't
know. Not going to be a frequent flyer.
Yeah. I'm I'm curious to know I am
curious to know if she uh and we can
move on after this. I'm curious to know
was there really an investment or she
just come up with it was just straight
[ __ ] graph just straight. Um I think
there might have been some opportunity
presented to her. She heard somebody. It
It was nothing that was ever going to be
realized. I just can't believe. I also
think though that this this land in
Maui, she had some intention to do
something with it, but it was the last
200 grand, not the first 200 grand that
she was able to put down, right? And so
um and then she lost that money. Just it
just pissed it away really because it
was a non-refundable. Yeah. Two years.
Two years. Yeah. You a fan of Stevie
Wonder? Um I mean I've listened to his
music. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you and I same
age. We we grew up with Stevie Wonder.
Yeah, I definitely listen to his music.
You ever seen him live? No. Me neither.
But I've seen I've seen, you know,
videos. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I uh I was
really excited,
right? Yeah. No. Continue. This is your
show.
I was super excited to see Stevie Wonder
live. Okay. When it was announced that
he was coming to Hawaii. And Hawaii
doesn't get a lot of good concerts.
Okay. Because it's so goddamn far from
anywhere else. I mean, you know, you
don't get like imagine the the
infrastructure that would go on into
like bringing in like a Cold Play or
someone like that, like you know, like
all the instruments, all the equipment,
all that to play on an 18-wheeler and
driving in here. People do go there, but
it's usually on their way to or from a
Japanese tour. Okay. Right. So, we were
all super excited when it was announced
that Stevie Wonder was going to be
coming to Honolulu to play a benefit
show for the University of Hawaii
athletic department.
Okay. Right. It was I mean it was
amazing. It was like announced on TV.
Everybody was Sounds off.
Every is he a big fan of I don't see
Wonder Woman being a fan of athletics. I
mean, he can't watch them. He can't
participate in them. I mean, the
University of Hawaii athletic
department's got a problem on their
hands, right? because they have this
terrible football team and yet they have
this tremendous expense. Again, Hawaii
is probably the most remote occupied
place on planet Earth and their away
games cost them a fortune, right? You
got to fly the entire football team to
California or Nevada or wherever they
happen to be playing and so they're
constantly strapped for money in their
athletic department. It's not a money
maker for them. And the team's also
terrible despite having the most
significant home field advantage in in
college sports, right? Because everyone
else is flying around the world to go
play against the University of Hawaii at
the home games. You'd think the team
would be able to somehow leverage that,
but they're always terrible, right?
Okay. So, the fact that Stevie Wonder
himself was going to be injecting
himself into the University of Hawaii
athletic department to play a a concert
there was going to be amazing. He was
going to like make the university flush
with money. And uh tickets go on sale
and people I know, FBI agents I know
were getting friends together like,
"Hey, I'm going to go get eight tickets.
You want in?" And you know, getting
tickets for each other. Did you get
tickets? I I did not. I was out of town.
But that's a whole other story. And then
what happens is Stevie Wonder's manager
um gets a Google alert on her phone.
He's got a manager and an agent. The
manager um kind of like a handler for
him. and uh gets a Googler on his phone
that these tickets have gone on sale.
She calls the agent over at like William
Morris and says um says, "Hey, um do you
know anything about a show in you and at
in Hawaii?" And he goes, "No, no one's
booked a show in Hawaii." I mean, they
would have the contract and all that.
She's like, "I don't know anything
either." And Stevie Wonder doesn't know
anything about it. And uh so the um the
manager, I'm sorry, the agent contacts
the University of Hawaii like general
counsel's office says, "We don't know
anything about this, right?" And the
University of Hawaii is like, "We paid a
$200,000 down payment to bring Stevie
Wonder in." Oo. And he's like, "Who'd
you pay that to?" And he gives him the
name and all that. And so eventually the
the call they call the FBI and this case
lands on my desk.
Okay. Okay. And it's up to me to figure
out how this occurred. Where was the
money wired? Follow the money. Thank
you. You're good at this. So, it started
with a um the money was wired to a guy
named
Shawn. Uh okay. Who lives in
Miami, but he was from England, like a
British guy living in Miami. And then
from Shawn's bank account, I see that
that like um 80 Shawn kept like 80,000
bucks on it. bought his girlfriend a
Mercedes with the money and sent
$120,000 of the money to a guy named
Mark in North Carolina who is a more of
a club promoter than a concert promoter.
Mh. And um and so there's some other
stuff going on. Bottom line is we're
trying to trying to understand what
happened. I uh you know it took me a
while to follow the money. I mean this
I'm telling the story in two minutes,
but we're you know I'm subpoenaing bank
records and things like that. This is
evolving over time and Do these guys
know you're this is happening? Do have
Well, what's happening is that some that
the president of the University of
Hawaii calls Shawn and says, "What's
going on here? My athletic department
just wired $200,000 in taxpayer funds,
right? Because it's a it's a state
school um to you. Um you know, who is
your contact with Stevie Wonder?"
Because there seems to be some confusion
about whether Stevie Wonder is aware of
this show or not. And he's like, "Well,
we can't really tell you my contact with
Stevie Wonder. I have back channels to
him." And so he's kind of playing games
talking about how like, you know, that
information is privy to me, but I can't
share that with you. That's the how I
make money is because I'm connected to
people in the entertainment industry.
But as far as we're concerned, this show
is happening and your next installment
payment is going to be coming on his
own. They're like, "Well, all right. The
um the president of the university head
contacted me ahead of time." And so we
recorded that call with where where the
Shawn fellow is kind of doing this song
and dance like, "Oh, yeah. No, it's you
know, that money's good. The show the
show's gonna happen." And uh so bottom
line is uh is I we end up um arresting
Shawn and Mark and um and seizing Shawn
the vehicle. Shawn bought his
girlfriend, took it from his girlfriend,
and she broke up with him subsequently.
And um and so and these guys had no
contact whatsoever with Stevie Wonder.
It's still to this day unclear to me
exactly what the endgame was when
there's going to be a a stadium full of
people stomping their feet saying Stevie
Stevie and you know he doesn't come out
and uh but they just took the money and
uh and pissed it away. I mean Mark
Hubard for the 120 that he got um he
just used it to pay down bills that he
had. So wait but it gets a little
there's an epilogue. So these guys are
both pointing the finger at each other.
Sean is saying it was Mark's fault. Mark
said he could book Stevie Wonder. Mark
is saying, "Hey, this is your show,
Playboy. I got nothing to do with this."
And so these two have like now turned
against each other. Shawn comes in and
agrees to cooperate against Mark. Shawn
pleads guilty to his part of this thing
and uh and agrees to cooperate against
Mark, who got most of the money, even
though Shawn was the one who initially
received the money and and and lied to
the university president. We're still
only talking 200 grand here, though.
Yeah. And uh so then it comes out that
Mark had done this in the past with a
fake Alicia Keys concert which didn't
help. And um and while this seems like a
relatively prosecuted on that one. No.
Oh wow. So that there was I believe
there was a civil suit. He owed people
money who that was the problem. See it
the they were taking investors on that
one. This one the actual university was
the investor who put a down payment on
it. So that I believe that was the
difference between the two cases. And
so, um, so Shawn cooperates against
Mark. And, oh, I guess the other thing I
want to point out, even though this is a
relatively short story to tell, and this
caused so so much problems at the
University of Hawaii, the president of
the university ended up having to resign
in disgrace. I believe the athletic
director was put on administrative
leave. It was they called it the Stevie
Wonder blunder. It was in the news every
single night because there's no crime in
Hawaii.
and and anything to do with a celebrity
in Hawaii is big news and anything to do
with a university is big news because
there's not the only game in town,
right? And so it was embarrassing to the
university that they screwed this thing
up and actually never did any due
diligence to find out if Stevie Wonders
really in the link. It be like you or I
just cold calling the university. So uh
Shawn cooperates against Mark. Mark ends
up pleading guilty as a result of that.
How much time do Shawn and Mark get? So
Sean got 80,000 of the money, right?
Mark got 120,000 of the money, right?
But Mark did not um Mark was waiting to
the morning of jury selection before he
plead guilty. Okay. Yeah. So
um I'm going to say Shawn
gets I say less than 90 days or less. I
would say that um uh Mark
gets less than two years. Two years or
less. Okay. Is that you're good on
Shawn. Shawn cooperates against Mark. He
gets two months in prison and then uh
deportation back to England where he's
from. Okay. Right. Because he's not a US
citizen. Right. Mark the judge really
threw the book at him. Um, I think
because the the damage that he caused in
this thing far outweighed the 1880 thou
or whatever, 120,000 bucks that he got.
He got 5 years in prison. Wow. And I
think the judge looked at the Alicia
Keys concert that never happened and
counted that against Mark. Uh, um, what
do they call it? Something 404b like
other bad acts. Yeah. Yeah. I was going
to say they can they can relevant
conduct. Relevant conduct. That's what
I'm thinking. Relevant conduct. Yeah.
Uh,
yeah. That's, you know, harsh, but he's
a, you know, he's he was, you know,
whatever unrepentant probably probably
plenty reponent uh while he's being
sentenced, but he waited till the day of
jury. Like he's trying Oh, the other
thing he did that that really pissed off
the judge is he pleads guilty and then
like right before sentencing, he tries
to withdraw his guilty plea. He's
playing games. That was the perception
of the judge. I remember that now
because we had to like we were gearing
up for potentially another trial if the
judge uh granted that, but the judge did
not allow him to withdraw his guilty
plea. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I'd say
probably would have said three years.
Five years seems excessive, but no big
deal. And I I never got to see Stevie
Wonder in concert. No, but then again,
he never got to see me, so Oh, that's so
wrong. Offsetting penalties.
Okay. Uh you ever been under
surveillance?
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Is it you feel like
you're pretty good at keeping your eye
out for surveillance and people
following you even to this day? Does did
it last create an impact on you?
Um, no. Because I didn't notice. It was
actually one of my broke mortgage
brokers that actually saw the realized
they're like like came in one day and
said, "So,
um, there's a cop." He's like, "There's
somebody across the street in a car.
watching us. He was there yesterday.
He's there today. He's been there for
several hours. And we have we were
right, this office I had was right
across the street from the post office.
Okay. He's sitting So there's this huge
post office parking lot, right? Then the
post office. So here's the main street,
right? Mhm. He's not parked like you got
this huge parking lot. He's parked right
here, right next to the street. Like you
could if you're going to the post
office, you would park close to it. It's
completely empty. there's not a lot of
action in the post office and he's
watching, you know, he's watching. And
so I was like, nah. But I mean, hours go
by and hours go by and and you could see
him like, what are you doing spending
hours in your car? And he wasn't that
far away. And if you if you not like you
wouldn't notice him unless you were
looking, right? And so one of my brokers
went over there to talk to him to say,
"Hey, what's going on?" Yeah. And as he
approached
him, he as he's walking, the guy's got
the window down. And as he's walking
over towards him, he's looking at him
and he says, uh, he's like, "Hey, bro."
He's like, "Are you watching us across
the street? Why are you approaching me?
Don't approach me." And he said, "What?"
He goes, "Do not approach me." The guy's
poorly trained. Oh, he and he said, so
this police officer or this is, no, no,
this is police. This is the local
police. This is um and he says, "Do not
approach me. Get in your vehicle. Go
away." Now, that's what that's what my
broker told me. He said, right? I later
found out my broker they had a
conversation, a brief conversation, as
far as I and what what ended up coming
from that conversation was he gave him
his business card because I didn't, you
know, he came back. He said, "Yeah, he
told me not to approach him. He said, "I
can't talk to you." So, he was lying.
Yeah. I think my broker was lying. Yeah.
Because later one of my other brokers
told me, the guy's name was Dominic, uh,
by the way, that had approached him. He
was like, you know, Dominic, I got that
that guy's business card, right? I'm
like, what? Yeah, he talked to him
because I we watch. We're all watching.
Yeah. And I'm like, he did? He's like,
yeah, he got his business card for some
reason. So, I'm assuming that Dominic
basically went up to him and said, "Hey,
bro. Like, if you're watching the thing,
give me your business card. I'll call
you later." You know, something like
that. Dominic has been in this situation
before. He ran a used car um lot where
the owner was being investigated. They
had approached Dominic. This is a state
thing with the FDLE had approached him
and uh his his the owner of the company
was not paying some kind of tax related
to cars. So, he was faking the stamp or
something that you get to save money on
every transaction. Something was
happening. But they had approached him
like cuz he's just a manager there,
right? Like, hey, this is what's
happening. He knows the drill about
cooperating. He knew to cooperate. Yeah.
So, he had he cooperated immediately
with that guy. And uh um it's funny,
too, because once I went to prison,
there was another case that he was
involved in where he cooperated in that
case, too. He's never been found guilty.
And he on my case, he's listed as an
unnamed co-conspirator on my indictment.
He's never So, yeah. So yeah, I've been
that and then I've been followed before
multiple times. I was followed on the
interstate one time. Okay. Did you know
you were followed or did you wait the
discovery and then you see it in the
vlog? I did. No, no, this time I knew. I
this time I knew you saw somebody in the
rearview mirror. But I didn't. The guy
the guy that was driving Yeah. said,
"You know this guy, there's a guy
following us." I was like, "What?" And
he was like, "Yeah, there's a guy
following us." I said, "No." He's like,
"Yeah, bro. I'm telling you, he's been
following he and then so finally I said,
we were driving and he want me to try
and lose him?" I was like, "Um, I don't
know. We're on 7 I75." So, as we're
driving, I said, "You know what?" I
said, "I don't think this guy's
following us." I said, "You know what?
Pull over and stop on the interstate."
Yeah. Pull over and just stop. He's
like, "All right." Pulls over. Boom.
Stops. Bam. The guy drives right by. And
I thought, "Yeah, we're fine." And then
he pulls over and stops. And I was like,
"Oh my god, no. No." See, the risk of
losing someone like that is that they
don't close the case out and say like,
"Well, I guess we're not ever going to
get Matt Cox." They begin putting, you
know, trackers, drones, they they they
stop using humans to follow you. Yeah.
They're not giving up. I did a lot of
surveillance when I was FBI agent. Um,
and it was great. When you're an FBI
agent, it's fantastic because you have a
lot of people usually who are on the
surveillance team and you're able to
kind of hand off what we call the eye to
the next person. I would think it'd be
boring. It is boring, but it's it's
possible to get successful evidence. My
point is this. It's boring. It's really
boring because most of the time you're
sitting there watching a car that never
drives or a door that never opens. But
once you're actually moving, it's kind
of nice because it's almost like like a
dance where I'm going to follow this guy
for two or three blocks and then I'm
going to peel off and take a right turn
and the next car behind me is going to
have the eye on him following that. And
it's just kind of a very elegant process
where the person's never going to see
the same car bumper locked behind them
for an eight hour period while they're
driving around committing crimes.
Hopefully, as a private investigator
working alone, you're getting burned all
the time because you're alone and it's
you're just hoping that this idiot
doesn't look in their rearview mirror.
But the good news is that most people
don't pay very close attention to who's
behind them in traffic. I suspect that
some percentage of the people watching
or listening to the show right now are
doing it in their cars. And I would
challenge them to think about without
looking in your rearview mirror right
now, viewer, who's behind you and how
long has that car been behind you? Most
people aren't going to know.
Got a particular case I want to tell you
about.
Matt Cox.
Okay. Had a dirty prison guard uh at the
local prison in Hawaii, the Hava
Correctional Institute. He was smuggling
drugs into the prison or um he would
meet like the girlfriend of the
prisoner, take money from her, take
drugs from her, bring drugs into the
prison, and then bring the drugs to that
person and keep the money. All right.
Right. I'm told there was some ICE and
uh and he was also smuggling a drug that
I did not know existed before that
called K2,
a synthetic um weed. Yeah. You familiar
with it? Yes. Oh. Oh, I'm very excited.
It's It's everywhere in in prison in
It's not allowed though, right? No. Just
making sure. I'm not crazy. Okay. No,
it's actually a chemical and guys would
they would you you mail you a book and
and the guy would be like, "I'm going to
mail you a book." And on page 122,
they'd spray the page with 122. So you
they'd get a book mailed and they could
tear out the book and roll up the things
and smoke it because it was it was a it
was like a a chemical. Yeah. Evidently.
Yeah. I mean, again, this is all news to
me, but uh this was not my case. A a
much better looking and smarter agent,
guy named Jeff Felman, who just retired,
shout out to Jeff Felman, was the case
agent, but I was on the squad, so I was
doing a lot of surveillance in this
case. So, um, one of the one of the
prisoners had the bright idea to
cooperate with the FBI, and he was going
to have his girlfriend on the outside,
uh, pay Mark, the prison guard, and give
him drugs repeatedly in exchange for
trying to get a deal for her man on the
inside. That makes sense. I' I've seen
it happen several times, right? So,
she's the one who's really doing the
cooperating and third party rule 35.
Yeah, there you go. And uh and so so we
were um and this smart guy was like a
bodybuilder, like a steroid guy who
would go to Gold's gym every day and
work out. And so we knew his his
schedule because we'd been surveilling
him for a while. And I was going to be
on surveillance and the idea was that I
was going to take him to a drug deal
with this cooperating girlfriend from
the Gold Gym to the cooperating
girlfriend. See if he stops and picks up
drugs or or does Follow him. Yeah. Okay.
You said take him. But I'm sorry. That's
how we describe it. Yeah. I mean, I'm
I'm taking him to work. I'm taking him
here. I'm I'm following him. I'm sorry.
FBI talk. And uh and so I'm going to be
following him and uh we got maybe one or
two other cars with me. It's not a real
tight surveillance because we know
exactly where he's going to be and when
he's going to be there, but we wanted to
see if he stopped anywhere to pick up
dope from someone else. Right. Okay. So,
that's the setup. FBI cars have these
amazing
uh like walkie-talkie radios in them,
like CBS, right? But they're they're
bouncing off repeaters. It's a giant
huge piece of machinery in the trunk of
the car with the um with the actual
thing inside the car that's like
connected to the electrical system of
the car where I could talk and literally
talk to someone in like Maui or Kawaii
or really far away um because it's a
very powerful CB radio in the car and uh
but I'm kind of an idiot when it comes
to electronics and stuff like that. So
it was a beautiful day in Hawaii as it
often is. I'm sitting there in the mall
parking lot watching the front door of
the Gold's gym, waiting for Mark to come
out to go to this drug deal. I turn off
my car, but I turn it on so I could, you
know, have the radio on and have my uh
my the FBI radio, the Buar radio, and
I'm talking and I'm talking to people
and then uh and I think, well, I should
probably start the car. I start the car,
the battery is dead. Having the car
battery on draining in this powerful
radio in the car, the CB drain my
battery dry. Now I'm panicking, right?
And I'm like I, you know, I look in my
trunk. I don't have jumper cables. I
look in I don't have one of those like
charge boxes. The other agent's there.
I'm trying to call them on the cell
phone. No, no luck. I'm like I'm like
really panicking at this point. I pop
the hood to the car. I'm seeing is there
anything I can do? No, it's definitely a
dead battery. You know, I'm like
watching the front door. He's going to
be coming out any time from the Gold's
Gym. And uh and so, you know, I call
someone I I know in the area. Can you
come over to the mall and uh and jump my
car? Yeah, I'm on my way. And uh and so,
but then as my relief is going to come
to give me a jump start, who comes
walking out but Mark, right? Right. With
some big muscle head buddy. They see me
there with my hood up. Walks up to me.
He goes, "You okay, bro? You need a jump
start?" I should do. I go, "Yeah, you
know, I'm sorry. My go I'm waiting for
my dad. He's getting dialysis over there
at the dialysis center and uh and my
battery just totally died and I'm just
hoping he doesn't see any FBI [ __ ] in my
front, you know, in the hood's up. We're
kind of standing. There's a picture of
him on a clipboard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. I mean, there literally
was inside the car and uh and I'm trying
to play it cool and I'm like, I just
don't know what I'm going to do. And uh
and he's like, I got my truck right
here. I'll jump start the car. Dude
pulls up to me in front of the car.
Nicest guy in the world. Jumpst starts
my car. I said, 'Can I give you anything
for this?' He goes, "No, man. Just pay
it forward." He shakes my hand. I close
the hood. He gets in his truck. I get in
my car. I follow him to a drug deal. Oh
my god. He does the drug deal, takes the
dope into the prison. A week later, I'm
go to his house and I'm doing the search
warrant at his house, pulling like
barrels of cash out of like the uh the
sock drawers and stuff like that. He
doesn't even recognize me. Really? Did
you ever say anything to him? Like, do
you remember me? No. It wasn't my case.
It wasn't my case. I wasn't in charge of
interviewing him and all. Did you tell
the other FBI agents like Oh, they knew.
Were they what they think? Laughing or
they were just they couldn't believe
this occurred. What? Bad luck. Blah blah
blah blah blah. And uh I I think it's
good luck. I mean, you learn not to shut
the car off. Oh, yeah. It was It was a
teachable moment for me for sure. How
much time are you going to give Mark?
How much How much What was he charged
with as far as dope? Um I don't know.
This is where it gets a little fuzzy. I
don't think it was a ton. Um again, it
wasn't my case. contraband. Yeah, it
basically consider it more contraband. I
don't think we ever intercepted any ICE
going in. It was mostly K2 and
contraband and and stuff that he
shouldn't have. He's taking a lot of
money um you know in the form of bribes.
I think that was part of what he was
charged with as well. Between three and
four, he lost his job. Yeah. Between
what? Three and four years. Final
answer. Yeah. Four years, eight months.
At least I'm in four years. Yeah. You
good? I'd say that's approved. You're
getting good at this. You're getting
good at this. You're going to knock the
cover off the ball.
All right. You ever uh seen the northern
lights, the Aurora Borealis up north? I
I not in person. You familiar with them?
Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, of
course. It's uh what it's it's what
coming It's it's uh not it's radiation
or the streams of radiation coming off
of the sun striking the Right. Yeah. I
mean, I don't I don't pretend I know the
science behind it. I was way up in
Canada once and stayed up all night
watching it and it was amazing. It was
like a fireworks show and uh but pure
nature, right? Yeah. So, there's a uh
resort up in uh Alaska, town called
Salia, Alaska. You ever been to Alaska?
No. Me either. Thinking of doing an
Alaska cruise, maybe on purpose. Yeah,
maybe do a cruise or something like
that. See the mountains? Eskimos,
igloos. Um Sala, Alaska. Got to figure
it's pretty far up high. Um all of
Alaska is. And there was a guy who owned
a the old Midway Lodge, a couple
actually. Brian Corty and his wife Candy
Corty. Candy was a big girl.
Not that it matters, but I I know you
like to paint a visual picture for your
viewers. Whenever I think of a lot, do
you ever think uh remember the show
Northern Lights? No, Northern Exposure.
It was a good show. Great show. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a good show. So, the
Cordies had this idea. It was a
brilliant idea. They were going to take
this lodge that wasn't really doing very
well that they owned and they were going
to convert it to a marijuana theme park
where people could come to this uh
lodge, smoke, and then watch the
northern lights while high. Okay. This
was going to be their their bud and
breakfast. Bud and I'm assuming that
it's it's legal to smoke pot. This must
have been after it was legalized in
Alaska. Let's let's I I don't there's no
drug charges in this story. So, um so
you know it was going to be their um
their Disney weed and they had this
resort plan and uh so they go out and
begin soliciting investments to fund
this fantastic can't lose idea because
there is a weed culture in America. I
know that you're not a user and I'm not
a user, but it's the people out there,
you know, with this opportunity might
actually take the trip to go to this
Disney weed. I feel like those people
are not going to Alaska to do this. I
don't feel like those are people that
have the funds or enough regardless. I
also feel like none of this money went
into this project. But go ahead. Either
way, great. Let's say it's a great idea.
All right. So, 22 different investors.
Okay. Give him $722,000.
Wow. Are these people raising this
money? This is insane. Well, here's the
thing. They were promised that their
money was going to grow 30fold.
Okay. Right. You invest $1,000, you're
getting $30,000 back. That's how
confident they were that Disney weed
would work out. Is it really Disney
weed? No, that's that's how they're
hyping it. Oh, sorry. Disney grass.
Disney grass. I think I think the
problem with Disney weed is not the weed
part. It's the Disney part. That's
what's going to get you in trouble. But
no, this is their butt and breakfast.
Their uh their old Midway Lodge. Um so
they get 722,000 bucks. Brian and Candy
are stoked. So, they take that money and
they start using it for to pay down
their credit card debt and to go on some
vacations. Candy got to swim with the
dolphins. Uh,
okay. It's very good deal for Candy. She
got to swim with the dolphins and um but
their their theme park never developed,
right? And so the uh so the 30fold
30fold never happened. No one got their
30fold back. In fact, everyone lost
their principal investment. 722,000
bucks. They might as well lit it on fire
for all the good it did them. So what do
they do? They call the FBI. Uh who opens
an investigation? The investors. Not my
case. The investors. Yeah, investors
complain. I I was on the receiving ends
of a lot of complaints like this. This
wasn't my case, but uh but investors are
very quick to complain. People say,
"Where do you get your cases?" I go,
"The investors will let you know if they
got defrauded." And so they bring uh
charges, wire fraud charges against
Brian and Candy.
problem's this, and you kind of we
alluded to this earlier in a
conversation we had off air. The case
against Brian's a slam dunk. Case
against candy is less so, right? She's
enjoying the money. She's swimming with
the dolphins. She's sharing a bed with
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of wheeling and dealing and handling all
the money and stuff like that. She's
just spending it, right? It's a tough
case against her. Yeah. Right. So, they
decide maybe we can induce a plea by
playing let's make a deal with Brian.
Brian pleads guilty and they drop the
charges against Candy.
Okay, how about I get a better deal. How
about I'm Brian and I cooperate against
Candy because she was the ring leader
and she was the brains behind this whole
operation. I think you're discounting
love. Yeah, love fades quick when you
spend four years in prison or three
years in prison, whatever. He get he's
going to end up getting Well, does he
plead guilty? He pleads guilty. They
drop the charges against Candy. She I
don't know. I'm assuming she stood by
her man uh and waiting for him to get
out. Um how much time you Candy was a
big girl. She's a big girl. She probably
stood by him. She probably did stand by
him. Big girls will stand by you. They
don't have a lot of options. Exactly.
Exactly. And all that weed gave her the
munchies.
This is horrible. Okay. Hey, you're fat
shaming her. Not me. I I described a
woman. You described her I described her
as being a big girl. There's nothing
wrong with that. Everyone's beautiful.
Okay. So, how how much? 722,000 bucks.
Brian pleads guilty. Negotiates a good
deal for Candy. How much time you giving
Brian? Like two years under two year two
years or under, right? God damn. Did you
look at my notes? No, but the other
person got two years and under, right?
Two years. Two years. Two years. Two
years. That's the guy. Just the
guidelines. He's never been in trouble.
Yeah. He cooperated right away. He play
I mean, he played guilty, cooperated. He
signed a plea. He didn't fight it. Mhm.
They hate it when you fight it. Yeah.
And uh Yeah. So yeah, two years seems
reasonable. Two years. Yeah. Two years.
Then he gets out and it's a tearful
reunion with him and Candy.
You good over there? Yeah. I'm just
thinking what your uh I'm just thinking
I wonder what he's about to say before
his intro next. You know, like like uh
Have you ever been watched Matt Cox?
Yeah, exactly. You ever painted a house?
Yeah. Well, this guy liked to paint
houses. Matt, we're about the same
age. High school class of 88. You were
born in 69. I was born in 70. I was
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. About the same
age. Remember Fran Tarkington? Fran.
Tarkington. Boy, that sounds familiar.
Fran Tarkington. I can't Do you have any
straight friends growing up?
He He was an NFL guy. Is he? Yeah. Yeah.
He was a quarterback for the uh
quarterback for most of the Minnesota
Vikings. You can mention Payton Manning
and Matt will probably be like Payton
Manning. Payton Manning. He uh he he
played for the NFL for 18 seasons. Okay.
Phenomenal quarterback um mostly for the
Minnesota Vikings. Here's why you might
remember him though, nerd. Remember the
TV show That's Incredible. Yes. He was
one of the hosts of That's Incredible.
Okay. He was also a host of a show that
you never watched growing up, evidently,
called Monday Night Football. No. No.
All
right. This is going to be lost on you,
but I'm sure your viewers will
understand. Fran Tarkington was a huge
celebrity. Okay. Right. Like like think
Tom Brady like level of celebrity uh you
know with within a a very successful
career in media after he got out after
he left the NFL. Um the the reason I
know Tom Brady is because of the uh FTX
is dabbling in white collar crime and
and his roast. Okay. Yeah. And that's
it. And uh listen, Jess and I uh last
night I think she was uh we were talking
about like her mom's trans whatever
transcend or something went out. Mhm.
And she said Jess said something I
forget what she said. She said that's
got she said you know and such and such.
She said I mean it's got positraction.
So and I went and I said she goes you
know what positraction is don't you? And
I went I and I said I go, "Yeah, of
course." And she goes, "What is it?" I
said, "It's when both the wheels are
connected on the axle, they both spin."
And I said, cuz normally both your
wheels don't spin, right? Like um you
have a a slip differential typically, I
think. And I said, "One wheel spins and
one doesn't. It's whatever one's getting
traction." And posit both spin. And she
was like, "Wow." She's like, "How do you
know that?" I said, "Because in the
movie, my cousin Vinnie
when when he gets his girlfriend on the
stand, she explains what pausy traction
is and that's how they figure out that
these guys did not kill these beat
somebody because there were two tire
tracks and that would mean it was p uh
it was ponzi track I mean it was posy
traction but I explained it and she just
starts laughing she goes I she goes I
should have known that you didn't know
because of the right your time at in
engineering school connected yeah not
because you've ever changed a [ __ ]
wheel in your life she's so she's just
like, "Oh my god." So, yeah. So, yes,
imagine a world where a guy named Fran
Tarkington was a big celebrity. Okay.
And uh an older man now, probably 80s,
maybe 90s. Uh I mean, he was a big deal
when you and I were kids. So, this
happened recently. Yeah. He had a one of
his daughters married a guy named Craig
Allen. And Craig Allen held himself out
as an investment adviser. And he told
people that he managed money for Fran
Tarkington, his famous father-in-law.
Okay. Okay. Right. So that's kind of
getting his foot in the door with
potential investors. Hey, if this guy's
good enough for Fran Tarkington, he can
certainly handle my money. Yeah, Fran
wouldn't invest with Yeah, that's
incredible. Right. Right. And so Tom
Brady wouldn't invest in some crazy
crypto scam. So uh so Craig had a fund
called it the Cheetah Fund.
Okay.
Ce Cheetah Fund. And um and he said that
uh he was making Fran Tarkin returns of
40 to 75% a year on his money and uh
because you know the son-in-law is a bit
of a champion himself at trading stocks.
Yeah, he is. Mhm. Yeah. It's great. And
so investors based on this insane amount
of return that he's getting and the
connection to Fran Tarkington, beloved
local figure in uh um give him $9
million. Holy [ __ ] Over over a course
of few years. Couple years. Okay. Couple
years. Wow. Um but you're going to be
shocked to learn that he does not in
fact invest that money in stocks. Are
you sitting down? I was going to say or
or invest any money for France. Yeah.
Yeah. He he basically moves it into
other accounts under his control and
then spends it kind of living this
lavish lifestyle, purchasing cars, sends
his kids to exclusive private schools
and just burns through the money, right?
And um but then he but he's got to keep
this thing alive, right? Or the
investors are going to start complaining
to borrow more money. Well, he sends
them quarterly statements showing that
their investments are going gang busters
and doing really well with no basis in
reality. He's creating these quarterly
statements at home on his computer, but
people are getting it. Why would you
take your money out if you're making
that kind of return? But eventually,
some guys need money. It happens. He's
also sending them um fake tax documents
showing their capital gains and
dividends that they're earning. And
these people who invested the money are
filing federal income taxes based on the
1099-int documents that he is sending
them that have no basis in reality.
Right? So, problems on top of problems
on top of problems. Took a couple years
uh before all the money was gone and
people started needing money for this or
that. Hey, I want to move, you know, put
an extension on the house. I'd like to
take out uh 700,000 bucks. And he starts
ghosting them and uh and he's not
returning their calls. He's, you know,
I'll get back to you. Oh, yeah. I'll get
right on it. And so, excuses after
excuses after excuses. Then at one point
he sends an email out to all the people
who are complaining saying,"I can't deal
with this right now because I need to go
to
rehab." And you'll be surprised to learn
Matt Cox that did not give them a sense
of comfort. No. That their money was
safe. He's like, "Chill out. Got to go
to rehab. We'll deal with this when I
get back." So the investors call the FBI
who launch an investigation. They
assigned a forensic accountants to it as
well as agents to kind of take a look at
the inflows and outflows of money to
learn the truth that this money was not
in fact invested in stocks. It was just
pissed away by Fran Tarkington's
son-in-law. And to do that, well, they
go to a judge. They get subpoenas. They
get all the record. You don't need to go
to a judge. Now, the the US attorney's
office administers the federal grand
jury subpoena process. When I needed
subpoenas in my cases, I would go to the
A USA, the the federal prosecutor, and
say, "Hey, I need a subpoena for this
bank, that bank, and that bank. This
here's a word document. this is what I
want you to write on the subpoena. They
would issue that to me. I would serve it
on the bank. Six weeks later, sometimes
as little as three weeks later, I would
get the bank documents and we begin
getting to work kind of scheduling that
out and figuring out what happened to
the money that this guy took in. Right.
And in this case, it was pretty clear.
And I also want to be clear, Fran
Tarkington did nothing wrong. Yeah. He
didn't he didn't have any idea this,
right? His lousy son-in-law. I don't
even know that Fran Tarkington trusted
his money with this bum. Right. How much
money you going to give this guy,
though? How How much time? How much did
he lose? Nine. The whole nine. 9 million
gone. The whole nine's gone became his
asset. I don't even think it was Ponzied
back.
Um uh 9 million. 9 million big ones.
Matt Cox. God. Plus, he's making
documents. I mean, like super. Right.
Right. Just unwinding this the
inconvenience. These people got to go to
the IRS and file amended tax returns.
Now, um, uh, still I'd say he's never
been in trouble before, we're assuming.
Right. Did he plead guilty right away?
Plead guilty. I'd say probably nine
years. Less than nine. Eight or nine
years. Seven years. Seven years. It was
harsher on him. Yeah. A little harsh. I
don't like the the the making the fake
document like getting they're getting in
deeper and deeper. like you got
sophisticated means, you got, you know,
there's other things that are obviously
uh enhancements, but then you get into
the point where it's like it's more than
just you're stealing now. You're kind of
really causing a lot of damage, messing
people's lives, right? I don't know. And
the other thing is like how did you
possibly think this wasn't wasn't going
to end in disaster. Like it's just it's
a jackass move. But yeah, I'd say I
would say eight or nine, but you're
saying seven. Yeah. I don't know if he
had a substance abuse problem or if the
rehab thing was just an excuse that was
never really in any of the court
documents. I would probably if this if
this if he had a substance abuse
problem, I would probably knock off a
year or give him ARDAP. Oh, you give him
a break for the substance abuse problem.
The use of illegal drugs for you is a
way to reduce the sentence, not to
increase it. I Yeah. Or get him ARD app.
I I'd get him I'd probably give him a
year off and then probably tell him you
got to take the ARA app program. You get
another year off, you take the AR app
program. So he then he'd still be at
seven. Listen, I'd still be harsher.
He'd still be at seven. So you say
you're saying that the this is
interesting to me because I don't
necessarily agree. the sentencing judge
should give him a discount on his
sentence if he is a drug addict. If he
made the choice to use illegal drugs,
became addicted, and then stole stole
money. I think if you could I think if
his lawyer could um prove to the judge,
document to the judge that it led it it
it helped contribute to his crime. I I
could see giving him a little bit of a
pass because he had a substance abuse
problem, which you know, if if you could
say now the problem is is I'd have to
see some kind of proof like, but isn't
that accounted for through the drug
treatment program, the ARDAP program in
the Bureau of Prisons where you'll get
your discount on your sentencing? You're
saying that he should almost get double
credit for being an addict. Um, well, I
think you don't necessarily pass the
ARDAP program. I think it's offered to
you. You have to pass it. Mh. And I
think but I like once again I think it's
a it could should be considered a
contribution like a contributing factor
to why you did this. If you just did it,
I just stole everything. But if you if
you could say, "Hey, look, I had a
substance abuse problem. I can show you
documentation where I tried to go to
rehab or I've got family members who are
saying this this has been a constant
problem in his life." like if you could
show show that it was a a contributing
factor, I would I would knock off not a
lot, but I'd give you something off.
Yeah, it's an interesting perspective,
you know? Yeah. Trying to have a little
little empathy for somebody, you know. I
get it. I'm not saying a lot. It's not I
mean, it's not a crazy position. It's
just it's counterintuitive for most
people. Most people be like, "Well, you
should you should you well it's your
problem or you know, I didn't force no
one forced you to use powder." That's
true. But it's an explanation, not an
excuse. I think most people would say I
think you know and I don't have a drug
I've never had a drug problem right I've
never used drugs right but I I you know
and and I've had it's funny I had a
friend I have a friend who's an
alcoholic well I probably have a few but
one friend even growing up was an
alcoholic and I remember going with his
driving with his dad one time we were
going to a closing and I was actually
flipping a piece of propert a contract
to his to his father and uh his business
partner totally legitimate kind of
thing. So, and we were going he was
like, "What am I going to do with, you
know, my son?" And we're talking about
his son and I was like, "I don't know."
I was like, "You know, he's got an
alcohol problem." He And so, we having
this conversation. His son and his
father, former Marine was, "Well, I I
just don't understand that. Like, it's
just a matter of choice. You know, if if
he if he wanted to stop, he could stop."
I was like, "Yeah, it's not, you know,
Chris, I grew up with a father who's an
alcoholic." So, I'm like, "It's not that
easy, you know." And he's like, "But
it's just a matter of of of discipline.
It's a matter he's just not disciplined.
He's just saying all these things and
I'm like, well, I don't if it was that
easy. No, no, no. I again, I'm not
saying that like there's not such a
thing as addiction, right? I'm saying
that it becomes a real slippery slope, a
moral hazard to be giving people a pass
on the things they do that harm others
just because they happen to have been
high at the time. I agree. But I I I
mean I I hear what you're saying, but
I'm saying if you can I'm not saying you
can just say it. Well, your honor, I got
a drug problem. No, no. I want to know
you've been struggling with it. I want
to know your family are telling you this
is a a real thing. You've tried to go to
rehab. You've And then I can say, "Look,
you're not making sound decisions."
Yeah. You know, and I'm going to give
you a pass, a little bit of a pass. Not
a lot. You know, I'm going to take you
from 9 to 8. You see what I'm saying?
Okay? Because you're going to prison no
matter what. You're not This isn't And
I'm going from 9 to five, you know, or
four. I'm going I'm going to give you a
year off because you know you have an
issue but I'm also going to send you to
art app and if you complete art app I'm
going to give you another year you're
going another year I'm not uncomfortable
with that right I'm still he's still a
seven yeah not yet which is where but uh
yeah I could see that I I could I could
see having a little bit giving a little
bit if you can prove to me but if you
just get up there and say your lawyer
says oh he's got a drug it was it was
drugs your honor you don't understand
I'd be like I don't everybody's going to
say that then if it works for you
everyone's going going to say it. I want
to see that's the moral hazard I'm
talking about. Yeah. I want to see
proof. I want to see this. I want to see
he's struggling. I want to see he's
tried to get over it. I want to see his
family. You know, you're going to have
to give me some letters. And it's not
just the letters. I want to see proof.
They're like, "Well, I'm sorry. I never
did go to you. I never did try it. I
didn't realize." Okay. Well, I'm sorry.
You can go to ARA app. I feel like it
though in that net world in this Matt
Cox universe where you get this great
discount for being a drug addict.
There's all the incentive in the world
for me to run a Ponzi scheme and then
right when it's about to collapse to
shove as much powder possible up my nose
and you're going to get a little bit of
time off for that if you can in this
Matt Cox world of of of justice. Okay.
All right. I always appreciate your
perspective on these things. You are the
king of law and order. All right. I
don't think I don't think there's
anything that gives you anybody a a
clean, you know, a clean sweep that they
could say to a judge if you've if you've
run something that that especially if
something that has sophisticated means.
You ever know what I'm saying? Yeah, I
get it. I get like you you put a lot of
thought into this. You ran this for a
long time. You know, there's lots of
there were lots of opportunities to
change. Interesting. No, I always
appreciate your perspective on these
things. You ever known a dirty lawyer?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. these people that you
were kind of in the mix with on some of
your own frauds or um um uh you know
what's funny is I feel like the lawyers
that were involved or I came into
contact in my fraud that did things that
were clearly not you know I feel like it
was willful blindness like you know
you're you're tell like I'm explaining
to you that what I'm what I'm telling
you is clearly fraud and you're acting
like it's not fraud because you want to
charge me and help and you want Get the
you want to get the business. Does that
make sense? I get it. My question is you
should have kn you knew this was a
fraud. Did you ever know any attorneys
who got charged with fraud type crimes
in prison? Yeah. That that if I didn't
know him on the outside, I knew him in
prison. Do you think the judge slammed
them harder for being lawyers? Kind of
like the you should have known better
thing we discussed earlier. No, I feel
like they they always tend to get I I
feel like they get a lot of these guys I
felt like they got less time. Now, the
one guy I know that really got slammed
was a guy that was pretending to be a
lawyer. Oh, that's a problem. Yes, they
didn't like that at all. That is a
problem. I investigated a lawyer in
Chicago who uh all of his law clients
were Polish immigrants who were injured
on the job and needed an attorney to
help file a workman's compensation
claim. Okay. The attorney's name, and I
wish I was making this up, was William
Malarkey.
Okay. His name was William Malarkey.
That's perfect. And lot of lot of Polish
people in Chicago. A lot of right off
the boat Polish people in Chicago who
spoke very little English. But William
Malarkey had some uh Polish translators
on his staff, legal secretaries and
stuff like that. So he would file these
workman's compensation claims for his
Polish clients who got hurt on the job.
A lot of, you know, construction
workers, they threw out their back or
whatever. And um and he would um in the
settlement checks, he would end up
settling these cases and the settlement
checks um go to the attorney's office.
Yes. He takes out his piece, he gives
you the rest. In the perfect world, he
would take out his piece and give you
the rest. But in William Malarkey's
world, what he did was broke it very
gently to his Polish immigrant clients
that they lost the case and he kept the
money for himself. Oh my gosh, that's
horrible. That's horrible. I know. These
nice people, they were. And they were
they were the nicest people in the world
as victims. You know, I don't know. I
lost a case and my attorney said it was
um
$187,000 from 15 different clients. Oh,
these are small cases. Small. Well, or
or maybe he's not really working super
hard to negotiate these things and get
the best settlement possible. But
187,000 bucks, right? And uh eventually
a couple of the uh the Polish people
realize that there's a problem here and
they contact the ARDC, the Attorney
Registration and Disciplinary Commission
for the state of Illinois, who does
their own little internal investigation
to you won the case. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. To take the uh take his law
license away and then I get the criminal
case against him. Right. So uh interview
the Polish people. Nice people. They
tell me their stories. Take a look at
the documents. take a look at the uh how
you know how the negotiation actually
went. Yeah. And you know, prove it up.
And uh so then it comes time to
interview William Malarkey
and uh no longer a lawyer, right?
Because that's really when you do that
to your clients, it it throws a real wet
blanket on your law practice, right? And
so at this point, he's selling used
cars. Okay. And uh perfect at a new car
lot, Chevy place. And uh and so I go to
the Chevy place uh and uh posing as a
customer uh with another dude, another
agent, young agent, and say uh and and
go to the front desk lady and say, "Uh,
I'm supposed to want to see if I could
buy a car. Um is William Malarkey here?"
And they're like, "Yeah, he's working
right now." "Hey, Bill, come over here."
And he he all smiles, comes up, "Hi,
Bill. Good to meet you." And I and I go
and I go, "Come over here. I want to
show you something." And so we go over
to a car and I go, "Hey, man. My name's
Tom. I'm an FBI special agent. I do not
want to get you in trouble here. Let's
go on a test drive
together. He's like, "What?" And I go I
go I go, "I got to talk to you." And I
go, "But I don't want you to get you in
trouble." I was trying to get you fired.
Yeah. Exactly. You got to you got to
eat. Let's go get in a used car and go
for a drive. And so, oh, okay. And so we
he gets the keys to some Chevy Equinox
or whatever. And we get in it. We uh you
other agents in the back. I'm in the
passenger seat. Bill's driving for some
reason and I go just drive a couple
blocks and pull over and it was like a
mob hit and and u and pull over and put
in park bill and uh so I reidentify
myself tell say listen you're not under
arrest you're free to leave at any time.
I always tell them that because then I
don't have to memorandize them because
they're not in custody right and say and
walked them through it and uh you know
this is what I'm investigating. I'd like
to hear your side of the story. Yeah,
you know, it got away from me. Needed
money. Practice wasn't going so well.
These are immigrants. Yeah. Oh, no. No.
My job is not to shame.
No, I'm not I'm not kidding. He's
laughing. But I do My job is not to
shame him. My job is No, I was thinking
he was saying what is what is this?
What's the big deal? They're just off
the boat. What are these people? I I
don't know. Yeah, I know. I I think he
felt uh he feigned an appropriate amount
of compassion for for them. And uh you
know but he but again you got to see the
world through his eyes. This is the
empathy versus sympathy thing. I don't
have any sympathy at all for this guy.
Right. But I can certainly have empathy
for him and try to understand that the
no one is a villain in their own life
story. Right. Right. He sees himself as
someone who is a victim of the financial
circumstances of his life who was doing
something to keep his head above water
that he would one day make right. And
that was basically the the the line that
I threw him and he latched on to it and
said that that was the problem. He was
having financial problems. He was going
to try to make it right to these people.
Then one thing led to another. You know,
you you get to your sixth, seventh,
eighth, ninth, you're by the time you're
on your 12th guy that you ripped off,
you just you got to keep rolling at that
point because they got someone's got to
pay the light bills. And so he was nice
enough there in a in a like new Chevy to
sign the confession. And uh you got him
to sign the confession sitting in the
during the during the test drive in the
Chevy. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because
and the reason it's so important to me
to get the confession from these people
even though I can prove the case in a
financial crime without it is because it
supercharges the case through the uh the
criminal justice system. At that point I
don't need to kind of like follow all
the money and figure out you know you
know how what which credit card was he
paying down what was he buying with this
credit card and all that. I can just
package the case up, bring it to the US
attorney's office and with the signed
confession on day on the front page and
then the interviews with the victims and
the limited financial analysis and it
rises to the top of the heap because the
US attorney's office, the federal
prosecutors know that they're not going
to have to waste the taxpayers money
taking this one to trial. This one is a
plea. My confessions are all solid.
They're never overturned. Right. How
much time you going to give? Under two
years. William Malarkey. Two years. Two
years is your guess. Yeah. Man, you must
have hacked my computer. 24 months in
prison is what he got.
Why do you think he got uh I'm thinking
because he was a lawyer, right? The
judge went bananas. Yeah. It should have
been because honestly like on the
guidelines, they probably should have
been less. Oh, without question. Yeah. I
I walked into this thinking that he
could even walk away with probation. But
but the fact that you have this many
victims, vulnerable victims, and then
the lawyer thing, the judge went bananas
over the idea that an attorney, a member
of the bar, blah blah blah blah blah, or
profession just threw the book at him.
Um, yeah. So, I didn't I tell you did I
tell you about the guy that I met in
prison that was um God, why can't I I
can never remember his name. Um, did I
tell you about it? Was a guy he was
pretending to be a lawyer, right? Yeah.
You mentioned that you had a guy who
pretended to be sure. I must have told
you about this guy because it's funny
you say Chicago.
Um Oh god, I can't believe I can't
remember his name. Can you Can you give
me a minute? I have to say because a
matter of fact, I would love it to tell
you this because I think you would love
to look into this. This is one of the
things you should look at and come back
and be like, "Holy shit." cuz I'll tell
you what I remember. Mhm. And then I if
you probably look on Pacer and be like,
"Wow." Oh, I matter of fact, never mind.
Jim Keegan. Okay. Irishman. James
Keegan. And I I used to play tennis with
a Jim Keegan. Different guy. Yeah. So
you would never know with this guy. Uh
I'm going to tell you the story and if
I've told it before, you can you can I
have not heard the story. I promise.
Okay.
So I'm in federal prison fighting my
case, right? Loose. loosely fighting my
case. Really, I'm just kind of writing
stories and hoping that Frank will get
me out. This other this other guy will
fight my case. So, I'm in prison and
this guy comes on the compound. He just
came from doing like four years or five
years in the state. Okay. I'm pretty
sure once again once you look into it if
you're like ah he did 18 months whatever
he he had gone to
state got four or five years actually
suppose according to him had fought for
three years uh his case ends up pleading
guilty in the state gets gets some state
time served does a couple does another
year or two gets out comes to federal so
now he's got to do some federal time for
whatever reason the reason he said he
was there was this was that he had was
consistently beating the uh in Chicago
he was consistently beating state
charges for gang members. He's like I
was representing gang members for
different murders. I had he was a
criminal defense attorney. Criminal
defense attorney. I had like five or six
uh cases where I won every single case,
went to trial. So the gang leaders,
they're coming to me. He is and look he
admittedly these guys aren't writing
checks. They're giving us cat, giving me
cash, whatever. He said a lot of them,
their families would give them money
orders, cat checks. He said at some
point they
they end up um they the state ends up
investigating him and the feds come in
and investigate him. He is because the
feds can get you for stuff that the
state can't. So they get me for
co-mingling funds. They get So he names
off a bunch of stuff that he says they
get him for. We don't know any better.
Yeah. So but none of this is true. Yeah.
None of this is right. Okay. This is
what he tells. So he fights it. Well,
first he says, I mean, he's got like
first they try and get them on this,
they have to drop that, they have to
drop this, they have to have drop all
these charges, whatever. So, when you're
in prison, you don't know what the
fellow inmates are in for. What I know
he's in for wire fraud. How do you know
that? Is there like some sort of like
you can get a judgment commitment or you
can just go on, you can kind of look and
see what he's fighting. Sometimes
they'll put it on on uh we have like a
version of Pacer, a limited version, or
people look it up. But but his there was
an article about him. So people had an
article where they got him for like wire
fraud. He was he got him for wire fraud,
Jim King. And guys are looking him up
and as the because they're like, "Damn,
this guy says he was a [ __ ] big- time
defense attorney." Yeah. So they look
him up and I mean there people are
coming with like, "Bro, this is who Jim
Keegan is." And they're reading it and I
mean he represented this this uh he
represented this gang member, two
murders, acquitted. This one acquitted.
This one not guilty. this will like just
boom boom boom. He's like Mike Tyson in
the 80s. But this guy is just he's
amazing. So guys are coming to him
saying, "Bro, he's looking for legal
advice." Take by case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
He's ah I'm only going to be here about
about three years. He really had less
than that. Yeah. I got like three years.
I'm just writing out, bro. I'm I'm just
not interested. Um and but people are
begging him and he's like, "I don't do
federal. I do state." Yeah. And he's
arguing at trial. It's not like he's in
a like an appellet guy or Right. But and
he doesn't but but these guys are he got
nobody. This is a real lawyer. And so
they're arguing, you know, it's like
between him and Frank Amadeo who thinks
he's going to his troops are going to
storm on Washington and he's going to
take the country over. You know, it's
like I don't know. I'm going to go with
this guy who I can read who's a criminal
defense attorney in the state. Yeah.
He's like fed. They're like feds the
same. He's no the feds is much harder.
So and he has these and so he's have and
keep in mind Frank Amado is there. He's
talking to him. Yeah. Frank Amadeo was a
lawyer. He's Frank Amado. Absolutely.
He's he's a real lawyer.
So,
um, super uh, anyway, so he's got other
lawyers that are there. Nobody's
questioning him. He's a lawyer. Yeah.
So, finally he says, "Okay, look, here's
the thing. I I've read your
case. This is a this is a pretty pretty
this is a slam dunk." And he's like,
"Here's what I'm going to do. If you can
give me God, I can't believe this. If
you Here's Look, my brother is a lawyer
in Orlando. Uhhuh. Absolutely true.
Yeah. He said, uh, he said, "My
brother's a lawyer in Orlando. I'm
actually going to go work for him when I
go to the halfway house. That's my job."
Yeah. So, I will be able to kind of
continue your case, and it's not that
complicated, and I think I can get you
off on blah blah blah. He's always in
the law library. Yeah. So he takes, you
know, give me have your family send me
2500 bucks. Send it to my brother. They
send to his brother. Uh another guy,
this is probably he's 3 to six months
away from being out the door. Okay.
Nobody knows this though. They think
he's got three years to go. He's he's
leaving for halfway house
soon. Anyway, so they're giving him
money, giving him money, giving him
money. He's got like some I've heard
different some of it's like he ended up
getting 20,000 30,000 35 I've heard up
to 40 $50,000 is what he got from M and
I know at least 10 cuz you know I don't
know everybody he's talking to but I
know at least multiple guys that like I
sent him 2500 another guy 15 another
three another so his brother got at
least 10. Yeah. Um some guys are saying
40 and 50. So bottom line is a few
months later he's like, "Holy [ __ ] I
got more to halfway half halfway house.
I won this whatever. I'm leaving. I'm
going to the halfway house. I got a year
halfway house, but I'll be working at my
brother-in-laws or my at my brother's.
I'm not going to forget about you. Not
going to forget about you." And he's and
he started filing paperwork or preparing
paperwork. Like I don't think he I don't
think he's filed anything yet, but he's
he's preparing drafting. And And keep in
mind, you could have anybody draft up
stuff for you. like there's tons like
Frank has trained couple hundred guys
who are doing legal work at this place,
right? And so he's doing it. Uh so he
leaves.
Nobody hears from him. Nobody hears from
him. Finally after a few months guys
start keep in mind people have there's
you know you can only have like a year
to file your 2255 and he's promised
people all kinds of stuff. So people's
deadlines are coming up. They start
calling his brother's the actual
attorney in Orlando his brother's law
firm. Right now, of course, they're not
answering. Yeah. Then their family start
calling. Need to talk to Jim Keegan.
He's handling my this. We know Jim is
your brother. We know he's working
there. He's like, "My brother's not
working here. He's in a halfway house."
And they're like, "Well, he's doing the
legal work for such and such." And so
finally somebody he they get him on the
phone. He talks to him. They're like,
and the only reason he's even
entertaining talking to these people on
the phone, by the way, is because
they're they mailed a check to his law
firm, right? Your law firm got this
check or you personally got the check
and deposited it. Yeah. The Orlando
lawyer's got an issue. He's got an
issue. You're doing legal work here. You
cashed a check. Even if it's in your
name or your Either way, you've got a
problem here and it's your brother and
he's saying he's not working here. And
so what ends up happening, and I may
have some of the details wrong, but they
start filing
uh they start filing with the uh Florida
bar. Yeah, this is tell and it's not one
person. We're talking a dozen or so
people are f are say with copies of the
canceled checks. The parallegal of the
bar association is seeing the same name
again and again. So they go to launch an
investigation. He starts mailing people
their money back. $2,500, $3,000,
$1,500. I know one guy who wrote up a
whole thing. Yeah. Who was explained
that he had sent him like $1,000. Not
him $1,000, but had paid Keegan, who was
going to work at Talks about commissary,
a whole thing. He sent him $1,000. He
didn't ever pay this guy anything. This
guy is just desperately paying anybody.
He's making it rain. If a letter shows
up 500, he owes me $500. There's some
money. You He's gonna lose his law
license. Yeah. Okay. So here's so here's
the thing. As all this is unfolding, you
find out he's not even a lawyer. James
Keegan's not James Keegan's not a
lawyer. So the question is, is there an
attorney with that name in Chicago? His
father. Oh, his father was a highpriced
attorney.
It comes out. So James Keegan Senior is
the the brilliant guy. Junior is this
[ __ ] And and the reason he did know
about like Frank and everybody is like
he was very well-versed in the law.
Yeah, because he had gone to state
prison and was doing state cases. He was
doing he was a a jail house lawyer in
state prison and you learn a lot. You
can get out like after three years of
doing legal criminal legal work, you
seem like if if anybody who doesn't have
a more knowledge than you, you're
absolutely going to fool. Yeah. Came
out. He's talking to to Frank. This is
where I went to school. They didn't go
to the same school, but he knows
everything about it. So other lawyers
are talking to him. He seemed they're
they're all like I thought he was a
[ __ ] lawyer. So, you know, Frank, of
course, is like I was always skeptical.
Um, sure. You or I can pass for an
attorney. Absolutely. If Yeah. Oh, yeah.
If somebody didn't wasn't an attorney.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, we might
be able to fool an attorney. Yeah.
Maybe. Yeah. If they didn't ask too many
questions. So, if I give me a little
research time. So, Pete could absolutely
uh uh pass for an attorney. He did legal
work for guys for 20 something years.
Anyway, so here's what happens is uh um
the attorney gets all the money back and
um you don't hear anything about Keegan,
right? But people are checking
periodically. Now, here's what happened
too, by the way. So, obviously, it
wasn't co-mingling of funds. They
weren't out to get him. What he had done
was he'd gone to work for a company that
was like a pallet company or some kind
of a company that had had something to
do with pallets and he was doing their
books and he robbed them for like
$400,000 over the course of a year or
two and he's selling pallets out the
back. Civil embezzlement civil
embezzbelement. He ends up So while
that's happening he ends up going to
state prison. He does a bunch of legal
work and then apparently because of the
wire fraud charges or something he has
to go to. So his story made sense. Yeah,
he ends up going to federal prison. Had
Frankf fooled. So, he goes to federal
prison where he runs this other scam. He
gets out. Once he gets out, somehow or
another, he violates once. I know we
know he violated once, went back to to
jail cuz they tried to send him back to
Coleman, right? He wouldn't go in the
compound. So, he stays in the shoe and
then I don't know how long he stayed in
the shoe or they he would have gotten
his ass handed to him, right? Yeah. Oh,
yeah. These guys are ready to kill him.
Yeah. So, so some people if they have
like a year to do your 2255, they miss
the debt deadline. Yeah, they're doing
time because of him at this point. They
don't have any recourse.
So, he ends up So, he does end up
getting out again. He goes back to
Chicago. I know he goes back to Chicago
because he picks up another case. Here's
the case he picks up. He This is how
ballsy this guy is. This is a true con
man. I mean, just just vicious. And I
would love I'd love to know the real
like I have a version of the story I've
pieced together, but I don't know. And
if you could get him to really tell the
story or if you really could look into
it, you'd probably be like, "This is
insane."
Do we know if he's out now? Well, he No,
he's he should be back in. Here's why.
He goes to He goes to And there's
articles about it. He goes to Chicago.
He opens up a law firm.
I mean, the balls on this guy. Well,
he's got the name, especially in
Chicago, right? But he does immigration
law. Okay. Vulnerable victims, right?
Who better to take who better to take
advantage of than people that can't
complain? He opens up a law firm without
being a lawyer and just holds himself
out as an attorney to you just open up a
you we're going to go rent a space next
week. I I get it. I get it. Yeah. Like
the people that are renting in the
space, they don't say, "Hey, can I see
your law license?" Not that he not that
I put it past him printing one off the
internet or paying $40 for, you know,
whatever. Very legal legal law school.
Anyway, he uh so he opens it up and he
starts charging people I forget the
amount. I'm going to say $2,500, $2,000
to help them get their green card and
get citizenship. Okay. So, he's walking
them through an administrative process
that anyone who can follow directions in
English could do, right? So, yeah. So,
you're coming in, you're you're Mexican
or Polish or whoever. You're coming in,
you're giving him
$2,500 forms for you. I've got it. I
know a guy. And then in six months or
so, he gives you a green card. He's
making green cards. Oh my god.
Counterfeit green cards. Yes. So, here's
the funny thing. It's the amount in the
paper was around half a million dollars
he made. There be so many people. Yeah.
In in So, this was in I think he kept it
open for either a year to 18 months
before the feds come in. Yeah. And they
grab him and he goes back to jail. Like,
to me, what killed me is why' you go 18
months? Like are you you you have to be
foolish to think that this isn't these
this isn't going to c like these people
are being asked they're showing green
cards or that's going to catch up at
some point they're going to say I can
tell I paid a guy I paid him I you
here's where he is and at some point
somebody if you get enough of those guys
some agent's going to say I you know I'm
going to look into this name that keeps
popping up. Yeah,
Keegan. Well, Keegan is a a 90-year-old
retire or an 80-year-old who's retired,
but his son, somebody puts it together,
they grab him, he went back to jail. I
want to say he got five or six years for
that or something. Or maybe he never got
I don't know. I just in my mind it was
five or six years. I'm assuming he's
still locked up. Be a good guess for the
show. I would love to pull the article
on him and give it to you and see what
you think. If you could look in like you
could probably tell because I I probably
got half that story wrong. Yeah, we'll
take a look into it or I I mean I have a
Pete look at it. I have somebody look at
it because I'd love to know what the
real story is. I'd love to get in touch
with him. But he's the kind of guy a
true con man is never going to really
talk to you about this. Yeah. He was so
arrogant though. He was so I I How old
do you think he is now? Oh gosh. He's
he's probably in his he's
he's in his he's probably close to 60 or
maybe 60
old enough to know better and he's
apparently he's always been a problem
like like and I got the little bits and
pieces from everybody who had talked to
his brothers ready to kill him. He
should sell the film rights to his life.
Oh, I would love to. It's got to be He's
got to be amazing. But once again,
non-sympathetic character. Yeah. Like
your brother Here's the thing, too.
Think about that. Would do you have any
sympathy for him? Because your brother,
you were both raised by the same father.
Your brother's a [ __ ] successful
lawyer or in Orlando and you're running
around in and out of prison ripping
people off pretending to be a lawyer.
What happens? There's a fail. There's
always a fail son, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Don't you don't have to tell my parents.
I wasn't pointing any fingers, but Okay.
So, what's what's the next one? Do you
know what an arrow key is? You ever
heard the term arrow key?
No, I don't think so. An arrow key is a
unique kind of key that's in possession
of postal carriers. It's a skeleton key
basically for the blue US Postal Service
mailboxes. Okay. Okay. Worth a lot to
have an arrow key. You got to be careful
with the arrow keys. People can steal
the mail very easily. There's a woman
named Kristen Williams who is a postal
carrier in Mobile, Alabama, and she
knows a dude named Shawn White. During
the course of their relationship, Shawn
White convinces her, "Sell me your arrow
key for
$2,000." Kristen does it. She sells her
arrow key to this guy for 2,000 bucks.
Oh, Chris. 2,500, actually. So, then
Shawn goes to work. Not as not as many
mailboxes today as there were back in
the old days. The old days felt like
every corner had a blue mailbox, but
there's still one sitting outside the
Bell Air Mall in Mobile, Alabama. And so
Shawn would drive up his car late at
night, take his arrow key, open it up,
start going through the envelopes there,
looking for something that looked like
someone was paying their bills and uh
and would steal the envelopes that he
thought would have checks. Pop them open
and uh and he had the checks. Think
about the information that's on every
check, right? You got someone's name,
you got their address, you got a
faximile of their signature, you have
their routing number, you have their
account number. It's amazing that we
ever wrote checks in this country with
all the information we're just giving
away on a check. When I was a kid, back
when before social security numbers were
things, some people put their social
security numbers on the check itself
because you'd often have to put that
down as ID. Uh, you know, na uh in
Tennessee, they used to have social
security numbers. And this is back in
the two in 90s and 2000s, they actually
would have your social security number
on your driver's license. It was your DL
number in Virginia growing up. That's
insane. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I grew
up. And um so what Sean was doing is he
begin producing counterfeit checks um
with all that information and giving it
to his friends to deposit into their
bank accounts, bang the money out, keep
a little bit for themselves and uh and
give Shawn the money. And it was this
nice little industry. Shawn was able to
steal $70,000 from this scheme. How and
how long of your time? Um you're always
interested in that. Let's say a few
months. Hey, I'm wondering how long the
scam can go between before you have to
change locations.
Yeah. So Sean, I think we could both
agree. Brilliant criminal mastermind.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. A lot of thought. He
rans into one problem. Kristen the
postal carrier was one of his friends
that he was having negotiate the checks.
I was going to say or the fact that
you're giving these checks to your
friends who are all going to roll over
the moment the moment that somebody
knocks on their door. Right. So, the US
Postal Service figures out what the
point of compromise was in this case,
and realizes that mail is being stolen,
and they set up a nighttime surveillance
at the mall, watching that mailbox all
night long. Day after day after day,
they're watching the mailbox. Can you
think of a more boring surveillance than
staring at the mailbox until it's like
in the morning? A Mercedes pulls
up. It's Shawn gets out, looked both
ways, tiptoes over to the the uh the
mailbox, takes the arrow key, opens it
up, and begins stealing mail. And then
the postal inspectors move in. Shawn
hops in his Mercedes and starts driving.
High-speed car chase. Postal inspectors
are on his ass trying to catch him. You
know, left turn, right turn, left turn,
right turn. Eventually they corner him
and they stop him and they arrest him
for stealing the mail. FBI joins the
investigation really more on the bank
fraud side and uh and it becomes clear
that when um well when they arrest Shawn
they take a look at his cell phone and
they see text messages between him and
Kristen just kind of laying it all out.
She said she was having anxiety about
her involvement in the whole thing in
the text message. She's having anxiety.
A lot of these young people have
anxiety. You don't know. You wouldn't
know anything about anxiety. Young
people have anxiety. So now they're able
to get Kristen for selling him the arrow
key. Sean pleads guilty and the only
smart thing he did is cooperate against
Kristen, right? His idea from Jump
Street, but he's going to cooperate
against the mail carrier lady. Kristen
goes to trial and thought she had
anxiety before. Kristen goes to trial
with the text messages text me and with
Shawn as the key government witness in
this case. Um, so horrible. And you'll
be shocked to learn a guilty verdict
from the jury. How much time are you
going to give Shawn and Kristen? $70,000
in losses. So again, not a huge case
economically, but you got a postal
carrier, right, who violated her
like position of trust, right? That's an
enhancement. You got Shawn who's sort of
like kind of orchestrating this thing.
He's the ring leader of this, but he
cooperates, pleads guilty, does the
right thing, right? He um Well, how much
time are you going to give these two?
First of all, I got Who are you going to
give more time to? One of, of course,
Kristen, what one of my one of my uh uh
enhancements was a a violation of a of a
position of trust because I was a
licensed mortgage broker, right? You
knew better. Um uh what does she get?
Well, listen, she went to trial.
$70,000. She's getting five. She's
getting four years. Maybe five. No,
she's getting four years. Let's say
she's getting she's getting four or five
years. Oh, he doesn't get any time at
all. He's getting probation.
70,000 and he cooperated and he got on
the stand. He's He could be in trouble
in prison. He gets no time and she's
getting more than minimal planning. He
got a bunch of friends involved. Kristen
gets 36 months in prison. The mail
carrier. Three years. I said four. I'm
harsh on these people, aren't I? You
are. You're a hanging judge. She went to
trial. What are you stupid? Like what a
waste of taxpayer money. The mastermind
Sean. 32 months.
Holy [ __ ] Come on. How did he get 32
months? He orchestrated this giant
thing. He giant thing is $70,000 and he
cooperated. He has This is so elaborate.
Okay, like shame on him for not
monetizing it more, but but it's very
elaborate. He's getting the skeleton
key. He's going in the middle of the
night. He's getting this mail. He's
producing false documents. He's luring
other people into the scheme. He's
working. He's wheeling. He's dealing.
He's zinging. He's zanging. He
cooperated and got and got and she was
the lynch pin to this whole thing. She
was the arrow key to this whole thing.
She just provided him an arrow key and
then deposited checks into her bank and
and then gave him I think he should have
gotten three years paper or probation
and I think she should have gotten three
or four year four years. She should have
got she should have got four years. He
should have got paper. All right, fair
enough. Are you
you What were they going to give him if
he didn't cooperate? It's
$70,000. Well, he must have had a
criminal history. He must have had a
criminal history. or screwed off some
screwed up something with the
cooperation. That's what I think.
There's no way he gets doesn't get
probation. If he has no criminal history
and he testifies, it's under $100,000.
He should have he should have walked
some something went wrong there. I I
think the criminal history thing is
probably right. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's
Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely got a a high
criminal history. This guy's a small
time hustler. You ever run into the US
Postal Inspection Service in all of your
uh your travels? No, but I've met many
people that have been arrested by them.
They're basically FBI FBI agents. Yeah,
it's a good agency. I worked I worked a
lot of cases with them. We always mess
we always made fun of those guys that
you got the postman. It's a terrible
name. They have they have real branding
problem. They really do. Yeah, but they
have guns. There was a TV movie though.
There was a US Postal Inspection Service
TV movie that they they all watch. And
uh what what was it? You know, like
there's been a million FBI TV shows and
movies. There was one made for TV movie
about the US Postal Inspection Service.
I I didn't watch it. Okay. I was going
to say, please I hope that they gave
them a little, you know, a little
credibility. All right. So, Matt, you've
been doing pretty good today as far as
guessing sentences. Yeah. With the
exception. Yeah. But these are all like
white collar crime sentences. So, we're
going to dial it up. Okay. We're going
to go we're going to talk about some
some lusty crimes, some violent crimes,
and things like that. And let's see if
you're good with those things because I
think you got the sentencing guidelines
memorized for fraud. I'm listen I'm
shocked that this guy that that last guy
didn't get probation but other than that
I've been pretty accurate. Yeah. Now
when you were on the run you were a bit
of a master of disguise right as far as
changing your appearance.
Yeah. There was some plastic surgery
involved for sure. Yeah. That's like
heavy. I mean you had a getaway face
there. That's amazing. And it it clearly
worked cuz it stuck. You look fantastic.
Well listen I had a comment the other
day from a guy that said your plastic
surgery is not holding up all that well.
I thought it was a mean, but that may
have been the most spirited convers I've
ever heard. Was it like a comment on
YouTube or something like that? Yeah, it
was not a comment. I was like, see,
that's the thing. You get I get the same
experience, right? Where like you get
like a thousand people, you're the best.
We love you. Oh my god, this is amazing.
Like like such a good job. That one
comment of someone saying something
shitty is the one that like sticks with
you for a week. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah, it
was upsetting. Well, I think your
plastic surgery looks fantastic. Thank
you. Do you know who else was a master
of disguise?
Who? 31-year-old Cameron Thomas. Okay.
of Jefferson County,
Missouri. He liked to dress as a lady
and rob banks. Lady boy. I don't know
what his uh I don't know if that was a
lifestyle or if it was a disguise. Um
like a Mrs. Doubtfire. Probably more
like media based on what I've seen. What
was what would they dub him? The lady
boy uh bank robber. I don't think I
don't think he uh I don't think they I I
was the guy at the FBI in Chicago who
got to get write those nicknames. And so
but this wasn't my case. Again, this is
Jefferson County, Missouri. This is
fairly recently. He walks into the first
community state bank and does a note
job. Hands a note demanding money
dressed as a lady. Mhm. Clearly a dude,
you know, like hairy knuckles, deep
voice, dressed as a lady. Um, they give
him some amount of money. Usually it's
under two grand. Not much. He uh he
throws the money in his purse. Mrs.
Dowire escapes with the loop. Gets away
with it. It's amazing. Three days later,
same dude, still in ladies clothing,
goes into a credit union in St. Louis
County, Missouri. This time, he points a
semi-automatic pistol at the teller and
says, "Give me all your money." Robert
puts the money in his purse again and
then runs off. The next day, goes back
to the first bank. Worked so well the
first time. Let's go back for more. This
time, cleverly disguised as a
man. Okay. points a pistol at the
teller, makes her put the money in the
bag. But while the robberyy's happening,
another employee calls the cops. And so
he gets the m he gets his money and he
takes off, gets in his Mercedes. All
these guys seem to have Mercedes today.
And police hot pursuit, you know, right
turn, left turn, right turn, left turn
again. And he bails out and in an
apartment complex, runs out on foot,
wildly firing shots at the cops as
they're chasing him down to the
Jefferson County Sheriff's Department.
He forces himself at gunpoint inside a
woman's apartment and uh and like
basically bursts in into the place and
goes running back into her bedroom. The
deputies, to their credit, they uh they
go in, they go right in and rescue the
woman, right? They're not going to have
a hostage situation here. And they begin
clearing the apartment. They finally
make it back to the woman's bedroom and
they find Cameron Thomas. He had at this
point changed into the lady's clothing.
this I I feel like almost feel like
there's a mental illness going on so I
mean I guess this is his last chance to
be in ladies clothing. So by the time
they get there he had just changed into
the lady's clothing. They place him
under arrest. I promise you it's not his
last
time being able to be a lady. But it's
also not his first bank robbery. He had
previously gone away for 10 years um
before for bank robbery when he was like
18 19 years old. How much time you going
to give Cameron Thomas for these three
bank robberies? Fired shots at the cops.
Yeah. Uh, so the first time when he gave
him the note, my first thought was he's
getting three years. But you brandished
a weapon. You fired the weapon at the
police. Yeah. It's a problem. I mean,
you're he's racking up the decades at
For the record, it goes federal. The
cops hand it off to the FBI who brings
the case across the finish line
federally.
Um and he's done it before. Yeah, he's a
freaking flyer.
25 to 30. 25 to 30 years. Swish. 25
years. Matt Cox. Wow. I I wonder that if
20 20
Yeah. I I I would say he he that the the
it would probably been I would have
thought if you hadn't if we hadn't
said if if he didn't have the previous
conviction I would have probably said 25
I I would have think the extra I was
through the five years in for the extra
so 25 so I'm off somewhere so there's
some other thing that's that um um but
yeah that seems reason 25 years seems
very reasonable that seems reasonable
he's what are you doing
you know he'll be like 56 six years old
when he gets out if he deserves it all.
Well, first of all, he was on the right
path with the note. Like if you're going
to rob the bank, like if you have if you
had to say, "Hey, Matt, what's was
possibly worth it?" It's like robbing a
bank with a note. You know what I'm
saying? Or counter or counterfeiting
cash. The money gets garbage. No, it is
garbage. The average I heard I've always
heard that the average bank robbery is
3,500 bucks. Yeah. I was going to say
2,800, but it's in that neighborhood.
But the moment you pull a gun Oh, yeah.
And things just escalate. You You're
looking at 10 years right there. If
you've never been in trouble before, you
pulled the gun, you're getting 10 years.
Yeah. There's a difference between
brandishing it and otherwise using it.
If you point it, you're otherwise using
it. If you're just lifting it up to show
the gun, that's a whole different thing.
The sentencing guidelines are really
specific regarding the use of a weapon
in a bank robbery. And then if you do
something along the lines, you pull the
gun and you said and you tell them like,
"Hey, get over there. Get over there."
Oh my god. It's like kidnapping. Yeah.
Exactly. You just move you just told
this person to move locations. You just
kidnapped them. Like that's kidnapping.
Like you've got so many problems, right?
So yeah. All right. You ever been to
Benton Harbor, Michigan?
I don't think any on purpose. Nobody's
been to Benton Harbor. I've never even
heard small town. There's only about
9,000 residents. But if you live there,
your chances of being a victim of a
violent crime are about 1 in 30. It is
one of the most dangerous places to live
in America in in Wisconsin. Michigan.
Benton Harbor, Michigan.
Okay. Yeah. You don't want to move to
Benton Harbor, Michigan. If you guys are
going to be setting up a podcast studio
because there's some tax advantage in
Michigan, Benton Harbor is not the place
to do it. We haven't even thought about
tax advantage, right? Two brothers,
Darnell Bishop and Dantrell Nance, uh,
ages 30 and 32. Okay. Darnell was 30.
Dantrell is 32 for those of you keeping
score. Okay. Regarding the the violence
in Benton Harbor, Michigan, Darnell and
Dantrell are part of the problem, not
part of the solution. and Matt
Cox. Couple weeks ago, they went to a
house where the manager of the local gun
a couple weeks ago. Mhm. Okay. I mean,
yeah, a few weeks ago. I mean, maybe
several weeks. I thought I thought these
were people that have been sentenced.
Now, we're doing current. No, they've
been I mean, this is this is all very
recent, but there has been a sentencing
in this case. So, I mean, we'll say 90.
We'll get there. We'll get maybe it's
not a couple weeks ago. Give me a break.
It was It was couple weeks ago when I
wrote this. Okay. I mean, it's a true
story, but uh but yeah, I it's these are
all adapted from my uh my Instagram
feed, right? I mean, true story, though.
Okay,
so they go to the house where the
manager of the local gun shop
lives. They kidnap the manager of the
local gun shop and take him to like an
abandoned apartment that they know and
they hold him hostage there at gunpoint
until he provides them the security
access code to the gun shop where he
works. Make sense? Yeah. Okay. So with
this information, Darnell and Dantrell
go to the gun shop and they steal 123
handguns and they pack them in two large
Yeti coolers and take the guns away. the
uh manager of the gun shop lives to tell
the tale and obviously the police and
the feds are on top of this and they are
in a real panic to try to find who these
boys are because you inject 123 stolen
handguns into Benton Harbor, Michigan,
things are going to go from bad to
really bad. Make sense? Yeah, definitely
makes sense. So, a lot of pressure
there. But there's a big clue that the
uh the the FBI I believe were was able
to get to the bottom of while the
brothers were holding the manager there.
It wasn't enough for them to just get
the security information for the gun
shop. They also made the manager log on
to his cell phone and send them all the
money he could from his cash app to the
brother's cash apps. Brilliant. So
smart, right? Yeah, cuz they're doing a
financial crime in addition to stealing
the guns. Yeah, but what's the problem
with the plan, Matt Cox, you've been
around the block a few times. Feel like
those cards may be in their name. The
cash apps were in the names of Darnell
and Dantrell, which allowed the crack
investigators from the FBI, the best
forensic accountants money can buy, to
get to the bottom of it and identify the
brothers. And so they did a they went
over to the brother's house with a
search warrant. They searched it and
they got the guns back.
They were able to keep the 123 guns,
okay, more or less the stolen guns
before they could be distributed to the
streets of Benton Harbor, making it, you
know, still the most violent place in
America to be, but not as violent as it
would have been otherwise. How much time
you going to give Darnell and Dantrell
for this uh this fantastic scheme of
theirs? Do they have uh a criminal
histories? Uh, I'm gonna go on a limb
and say at age 30 and 32, this was not
their first rodeo. And they they
kidnapped the guy. They brought him to a
separate location. Yeah. Did they harm
him or we know? We we assume it's
threatened him at gunpoint. Um, no. I
don't I never got any information that
they were abused or torture that they
tortured him or anything like that. Um,
I mean obviously they scared the heck
out of him. Okay. And they, you know,
they took money from his cash app.
So
here here's a clue. Okay, the brothers
stood firm. Neither cooperated against
the other. Okay, they both plead guilty
though and they both got the exact same
sentence. I would say 25 25 years. Like
they kidnapped some I'm I I don't like
there's some stuff like I if it was
robbing if you robbed a bank even you
pulled a like I'd say 10 to 15 but the
kidnapping that's so serious and the
guns it's that seems so serious. I can't
imagine unless they had no criminal
history I would say they had no criminal
history maybe 15 or 20 but if they have
criminal history 20 25. Yeah I don't
have information about their criminal
history. I may be just sort of figuring
that that town has an issue and these
guys probably come from a
socioeconomically depressed corner of
the town, but they got 15 years each.
That doesn't seem right. That doesn't
seem fair. It should be more. It should
be more. It's kidnapping. You came into
someone's house and you kidnapped them
and you moved the location and you stole
guns. I'm sorry. No, we need to talk
about this.
We I feel like making a phone call. I
feel like writing a harshly worded
email. You're a hanging judge, Matt Cox.
I mean, I I there's something wrong. Had
I told you the guys were addicts, you
would have given them probation, right?
I think if they they they've had to
First of all, they got the same
sentence. Mhm. So, they couldn't have
unless they had the same criminal
history, right? Yeah. I mean, I I agree
the criminal history is the wild card
here that I just don't know about. Yeah.
So they never released that in the uh in
the court records. So you're saying 15
years. I was saying between 15 and 25.
You want credit for the win? I'm happy
to give it to you. It's your show. I
don't want credit for the win. I because
I I'm I'm still even the the crim that
the wild card is that I'm still saying
20 25 to 30. Really? Right. It's Listen,
I don't have any anybody comes into my
home,
kidnaps someone, holds someone hostage,
it's got to be terrifying. Or moves
them. Yeah. I no [ __ ] sympathy for
you. Oh, you might as well that might
that might as well be, you know, a crime
against a child. That poor guy's
traumatized forever. Yeah, he's he's
done. He's not gonna Yeah. Yeah. And
your home is such should be such a
sanctuary that you should feel safe
there no matter what. Yeah. It was a
good plan except except for the cash app
part. Yeah. Well, you know, there
there's there are people that will go
and like kidnap like like like watch
like a jewelry store and then go go into
that go have a home invasion at 2 in the
morning, grab that person and have them
bring them back to I feel like that's
just so I used to play at a high stakes
poker game uh pretty regularly in
Chicago and we had a guy who won a bunch
of money that night and um and left the
card room and drove home to his fancy
suburb of Wetka, Illinois and was robbed
at gunpoint in his driveway. way, you
know, in like a really nice suburb. So,
somebody from the poker game called
somebody else and said, "That Asian
dude, Johnny, he's leaving now. Follow
him." And uh and then robbed him in his
driveway. Yeah. Um when you were locked
up, was there ever any romance between
corrections officers and inmates?
There was an attempted and I know there
was an attempted one. I I've told this
story about the the older guy. Did I
tell you you remember that? I don't know
if I was on the show for that one
though. There was a was it I would say
go ahead and tell it because yeah, our
last co relationship uh Tik Tok did very
well. So it was a real relationship.
It's it's there's a there was a it turns
out much like the Catholic Church when
you when you have allegations against
you, they'll move you to different
locations. Okay. And there was a CEO
that had had several allegations of of
harassing inmates.
Dude CEO. Yeah. And with dude inmates.
Yes. Okay. So he's harassing him.
Anybody's older, too. He was like in his
late 50s, early like he was an older CO.
Gay guy or just horsing around? No. Gay
guy. Okay. And so he showed up. He's a
new a new CEO and he was an [ __ ]
Yeah. Like you weren't a cool CEO. You
were an [ __ ] Uh, and so he shows up
and I had an old Sully named named
Frank. Frank was in his 60s. He's
probably in his 70s now, but he's 64, 65
years old. So Frank's walking by the the
the CEO's office one day and the CEO
says, "Hey, can we come in here?" And so
he Frank's grumpy. He walks in. He's
like, "Yeah, what's up?" He's like, "Uh,
I've been watching you." He's like,
"Okay." Okay. And he says, "You work
out." And Frank goes, "Well, I used to
work out a lot." He's like, "I don't
work out that much anymore, but try and
stay in shape." Yeah. Yeah. What do you
do? I do this. And you He kind like, you
know, first of all, talking to a CEO is
not great a great look. Yeah. But he's
just answering the question like this
and this and this. Oh, I walk the yard.
I try and watch what I eat. Yeah. You're
in good shape. How old are you? This
old. Oh, okay. He He said, "Yeah." And I
said, um, you know, is if you're
incarcerated and you have sex with
another man, he goes, "It doesn't make
you
gay." And Frank said, Frank looked at
him, he goes, "Yeah, it does." And he
said, "Ah, it doesn't." And he said,
"Yeah, I'm I'm done with this
conversation." He said, "Okay." He said,
"Turn around and just walked off." He
leaves. He comes to where my buddy Pete
and I are. Me, Pete, and a guy named
Donov Davis were at a a concrete picnic
table down in an arrowy called
Stonehenge. So he comes down there, he
walks, he's like, "Hey." He walks up and
he goes, "Listen to this. You're not the
[ __ ] co." And I'm like, "Hey, listen
to what just happened." And he tells us
the story. And I and I and he's like,
"That you [ __ ] said that?" And I
was like and I I was like, "Holy shit."
And I go, "Well," and he goes, "I can't
[ __ ] believe that." He and I went I
said, "Wait a minute now, Frank." I
said, "This may be your way out." And he
says there, he goes, "What?" And Frank
and I go, "Say." I said, "You need to
think about it." I said, "I mean, you
give do a reachound or something like I
mean," and I said, "That may be your way
out." And on Q, my buddy Pete goes,
"Save the sample like that, right?" Like
Monica Lewinsky, save the sample. We
roar laughing. He goes, "You [ __ ]
assholes." And he just turns around,
walks off. Frank was just grumpy. But
yeah, we after that we're all like,
"Holy [ __ ] this guy's like a predator."
Yeah. Um and and he he was and we found
out late like like guys started talking.
This is happening a lot. Guys start
talking and the other cos are like, "Oh
yeah, they moved him around over and
over again. He's a real problem. He's
been a problem. It's hard to fire these
guys, right? It's a very specific crime,
a statute that was passed that makes it
a crime, right? Because because the
power d Yeah. Grape. It It makes it
grape. It makes it grape. It does. The
power dynamic between the inmate and the
correction officer is just too wide. So
a prisoner like a child is incapable of
consenting to sexual activity. And so
yeah, it's it's an assault in the eyes
of the law. So my wife was at Coleman
Low, I'm sorry, at Coleman camp, right,
when so you know there was a huge I
don't know if you know this, there was a
huge lawsuit at Coleman camp. They
actually turned the camp from a female
camp to a male camp. Okay, listen. They
just closed uh Dublin, which was a
female camp. There were so many assaults
in Dublin, they just closed the whole
the camp, right? Or low, whatever it
was. Anyway, there was I think like 10
or
12 females, female inmates in
Coleman that in the Coleman camp that
were having relations with guards
and eventually one of them gets together
and puts together a whole like as
they're getting out puts together a
whole crew of them. They they get a
lawyer. They file a
lawsuit and they sue Coleman. They sue
the federal government at Coleman and
they sue these guards and they end up
getting like you could look this up. I I
want to say it's like 80 million. It's
insane. Astronomical. It's outrageous
how how uh the amount of money they got.
Especially since my wife knows that
although these although by law you
cannot give consent, right? She's like,
"These girls are getting into arguments
and fights over they're basically like
this is my boyfriend." Yeah. And and
she's like, they want they want the
attention. They want the, you know, and
these guards can bring in stuff for
them. They're bringing in food. Not just
like drugs, but like food and stuff like
that. So they these girls feel like they
have a relationship. Like they're
they're targeting these guys. Oh, yeah.
One of the guys, by the way, that
was listed on one of the cos that was
listed on the uh in the
lawsuit. Oh man, his name was on the tip
of my tongue. He came to he drove to the
prison, parked his car, he offed himself
in the parking lot of the uh the prison.
Oh, you're gonna lose his family and his
pen. Yeah. And the thing is too, uh, out
of all the CEOs there, if you had to say
who was a decent CEO, he he I mean, I
don't know whether the allegations are
true or not. Yeah. He was not a smart
guy. Like this is a guy like a 90 IQ. He
was not bright. He had been in some kind
of a car accident. He he like you had a
he had a scar brain injury some kind.
Seemed a little slow, but he was just a
seemed like a nice guy. He probably got
targeted. Um, and I'm not saying it's
right or it's right. I mean, no matter
what, targeted or not, you're it's it's
a no situation. But, uh, the the
allegations were like, oh, they were
basically like the guards were coercing
the women or forcing them or forcibly,
you know, doing and and my wife, who
actually got picked up during the
investigation and brought to uh and
brought to the county jail to be
questioned, okay, was like, I don't know
anything. She she said I She's like I
told him I don't know anything. She said
but the truth is she's like I know that
the they were targeting them. Yeah. And
she said but you know she's like but
what the girls were saying wasn't true.
Yeah. Best to sit that out. So there was
a uh a sheriff the actual popularly
elected sheriff not just some sheriff
deputy in Knoxabe County Mississippi.
His name is Terry
Grasserie. The sheriff obviously runs
the county jail right. It's it's their
job. in addition to patrolling and doing
whatever. Um, which included in this
case the ladies block and uh there was a
female prisoner at this Knoxabe County
Jail. We'll call her Felicia. Mhm. So
pretty. So pretty. Macadox.
Irresistible. Sheriff Terry took a
liking to her. And so he gives her
special privileges including cigarettes
and a smartphone while she's in jail so
he could keep in touch with his jail
house crush. Is that like that's nice?
Kind of like puppy love. Yeah. So he
would use Facebook Messenger to text her
and he began soliciting nude photos and
videos from her from her cell and she
complied. She was a a very good online
girlfriend. Um and he was very
complimentary about the state of her
body. He said sweet things to her in the
messages.
Here's where it gets a little
complicated. There was no evidence
whatsoever that Sheriff Terry ever
checked her out uh you know and took her
out for physical sex, which of course,
as we just discussed, would be a serious
crime. But um but the FBI still receives
a tip from another inmate about this
kind of inappropriate relationship going
on. So the two agents go to visit
Sheriff Terry, you know, pull him, maybe
they sit in his office and um and and
Sheriff Terry lies. He lies and lies and
lies. says none of this is true. This
never happened. And I guess he forgot
about kind of the electronic
fingerprints that Facebook Messenger
leaves behind. This isn't a very
knowable thing. You just have to reach
out for Facebook and subpoena the
records and you can get the text logs,
which the agents did. So the only thing
they really have Sheriff Terry on is
this kind of inappropriate relationship.
But what they charge him with is lying
to an FBI agent. Title 18 section 10001.
Um, and it's a it's a crime to lie to an
FBI agent. Something I reminded my kids
of weekly growing up. So, Terry, Sheriff
Terry,
every time something went wrong, I said,
"I'm asking you and you know it's a
crime to lie to them. I tell them this."
Yeah. Took took me a while to get that
too. So, he loses his election uh
because this is all out there and he's
facing these charges. He ends up
pleading guilty to the false statements
to the FBI charge. And uh I'll tell you
that the statutory maximum penalty for
lying to an FBI agent is five years in
prison. What do they give Sheriff Terry
in this case? I I would say the moment
you say lying to an FBI agent, I think
three years. Um I know that it's it's
like between three to five, depends on
how serious it is. Yeah. I would say
between three to five, but I'm going to
say one year because when you were
folding the paper, I saw the word one.
You're looking you're looking at my
paper. You're going to have to bring a
um you're going to have to do something.
Next time you're going to have to have a
little blinders or something. Well, I or
for the good for the How about this? How
about this? I looked down. I saw one for
the good of your own goddamn show. Why
don't you play along? You could also do
that. Okay. Well, here's this. But as
soon as you said I thought I thought
he's getting three years. This is why
you shouldn't look at someone else's
paper. He got one day in prison. Oh,
okay. He also got a fine of 25,500 bucks
and six months home detention.
That doesn't seem fair.
Yeah, I think it should be I I I think I
would have said three years. I mean,
you're
I I don't think you should Well, also,
by the way, I don't think that in an
interrogation of any kind, I don't think
that the government or the FBI should
have the the right to lie to a s a
suspect. You know what I'm saying? But I
think you think it should be an even
playing field between Yeah, kind of. I
do. You know, but I I definitely think
that you you when you come in, if you're
gonna come in and you're gonna start
lying to me,
I think that that I think that I I I
think that in and of itself understand
that that's not the case here. Right.
The agents sat down and asked him very
specifically, have you? And he lied.
Yeah. Oh, no. Right. Right. The FBI
agents are not lying to him. No, in this
particular story. No, this is I
understand that they just we know what
you did. They said, "That's a lie.
That's not I've never talked to her. I
never this.
you're lying. Like what are you doing?
If you're going if that's what you're if
that's your game plan, then just say I'm
not going to talk to you. I don't have
to talk to you. Right. So I would have
said I'm not going to talk to you. But
it does apparently lying to an FBI agent
is one day in jail. That seems
reasonable. Well, unless you're Martha
Stewart, right? Yeah. Like Yeah.
Exactly. Mhm. So it that's not that's
not it's because he's all law
enforcement and that's that's or I don't
know. I I'm either prot either he's
cooperating, which there's no chance for
him to cooperate.
There's and you know no criminal
history, no like yeah it's it doesn't
make it doesn't make sense that he got
that that little time. It should be
three years. I mean you want to give him
some you want to give him two years and
a year either. I still think it's three
years. I don't think he gets any he gets
any play at all cuz first of all you
know better. Yeah. You're you're a
sheriff. You know better. How bad do you
think the conduct is? Is the conduct
itself worth three years to you? Are you
just offended that anyone would lie to
an FBI agent?
Um because right the the lying to the
FBI agent charge in this particular case
at least is really just a Trojan horse
for charging him with this underlying
conduct.
In fact, the agent probably said like,
"Oh my god, I hope he lies to us."
Right? Because I'm not sure what the
federal crime is um on, you know, for
the it's not really a civil rights
violation. It's it's it maybe maybe it
is introduction of contraband like he
you you gave her a cell phone cigarettes
and a cell phone but again is that a
federal crime? No it's not I right no
it's not federal but right we're talking
to account we're talking about the
county jail that he's the he's the boss
of right and and to a certain extent
gets to make the rules. No I'm I'm
making his argument for him. But my
point though is I don't know that
there's an obvious federal crime here. I
I don't Well, other than lying to the
FBI Yeah. Is there a federal why why did
they even come and and question him?
Because he's a corrupt sheriff, right?
But you have a state there's still the
state law enforcement. Every state has
its own kind of version of the FBI. They
could have come and and evidently he had
been a problematic sheriff in other ways
and had uh and and had kind of escaped
justice from the state uh from different
state things and kept continue getting
elected. So they they probably figure
bring in the FBI, he's going to lie to
him. We know like they probably already
know his history. He's going to
blatantly lie. We're going to get him on
the lie. It's not a bad plan. Straight
in. He goes to jail and then he still
gets He must be friends with the [ __ ]
with the uh with the um judge. Got six
months home confinement. That's
ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't
disagree with you. I'm just playing
devil's advocate. Yeah. No, I I think
and if you're concerned about his
safety, because look, I you don't want
to send somebody to prison that's going
to get killed, you know, or beat up or
or Okay. Then you could keep him in the
county jail for a year. He gets a year.
He still gets a year. Yeah. Give him put
him in another county jail. Put him in a
federal jail. Yeah, there's options.
Yeah. I mean, you got a f you got a
federal case he can do if you said okay,
but he should do jail time for sure.
Okay. Well, I appreciate your opinion on
that.
All right. So, uh so this one's a real
real puzzler because the plan was so
brilliant. Okay. So brilliant. All
right. So, we got a 20-year-old guy. Um
his name is Sai. Have we hidden? Have we
hidden? Can we hide whatever is coming?
20-year-old guy. Okay. His name is Sai
Kandulla. Born in India, but a lawful
permanent resident here in the US. Green
card holder. No immigration problems.
Everything's squared away immigration
wise, right? Grows up here in the US.
Came over as a child uh into the USA. Um
lawful permanent residence. Want to
establish that. Lives in St. Louis,
Missouri. So, one day he gets a one-way
ticket from St. Louis to Dallas airport
in Northern Virginia outside of
Washington
DC. Okay. Okay. Flies from St. Louis
across the country to Dallas airport.
Takes an Uber to the local U-Haul place
and rents a U-Haul
truck. Big big U-Haul
truck. No cargo, but just the U-Haul
truck. that night. Traveled all day
long. gets it at night. He drives
the U-Haul to the White House where the
US president lives, 1600 Pennsylvania
Avenue, Matt Cox. Mhm. And he rams the
barriers surrounding the president's
home with the U-Haul truck. The barriers
hold. Yeah, I was going to say he's not
getting through those. He reverses. He
was He's able to reverse it. Drives
again, accelerates into those barriers,
hoping that they'll buckle and break.
They do not buckle. They do not break.
The uh radiator shatters on the U-Haul
truck. The vehicle's
disabled. He uh he's not done though.
Sai is not done. Matt Cox, he gets out
of his truck and he removes a red Nazi
swastika flag and he begins waving it
around until U and there's video of this
until the US Park Service and the US
Secret Service jump on him, put the
handcuffs on him and arrest this young
man. Now the FBI is is is in charge of
conducting the investigation after they
kind of like you know protect the
president. The president at this time is
the end of the Joe Biden term. Sai
explains under
interrogation. Um can you say that
again? Joe Biden was president at the
time. Okay. Uh this is and and the but
the FBI has the gets the investigation.
Secret Service and Park Service stop
him, right? That's their job. Yeah. But
when there's an attempt on the
president's life, um the invest or or
like like with the Trump case when he
was shot, um falls to the FBI. Yeah. The
FBI conducts the investigation after the
fact, right? So there's the protectors
and then there's the investigators. The
Secret Service will investigate threats
against the president, but once that
threat kind of becomes action, then it
becomes the FBI's problem. I think
that's how it works. Don't quote me on
that, but bottom line is it's the FBI's
case. They bring Sai in, Miranda him,
and say, and he says he'll talk. He say,
"What's with the swastik?" Here's Sai's
plan. Here's the plan. This is a He's a
He's a planner. He's a planner. His goal
was to gain access to the White House
where he planned to seize political
power and name himself the president of
the United States because that's how it
works, Matt Cox. and uh and he would
replace the democratically elected
government of the US with a dictatorship
fueled by the ideology of Nazi Germany
putting himself in charge. He was going
to be our dictator. Sai was I I'm going
to mail him a book I've written called
its insanity about Frank Amado wanting
to take over the world. He said that he
intended to off the US president in the
process. Um we'll use the word off for
YouTube purposes. And um and he's
charged with destruction of government
property. Did he have any weapons? No.
Other than the little flag. No, he it
was it's kind of like capture the flag.
If you can make it into the Oval Office,
you get to be president. That's how it
works, right? And then we learn that in
civics class when we're kids. Um he's
charged with destruction of government
property. Let me give you some dollar
amounts here. uh 5,000 damages uh $5,000
in damages to the barrier uh that he
owes the US Park Service. Didn't do
anything. 50,000 to the
U-Haul. Destroyed that U-Haul truck. He
owes U-Haul 50,000 bucks. Um and uh you
know, so he pleads guilty to destruction
of government property. How much time
are you going to give Sai?
Isn't it funny? I just think you're like
a nut. You didn't kill anything. Really?
You think he's a nut? Yeah, he uh um I I
mean but I I definitely would think you
would first first start with the
threatening the life of the president,
which to me is super serious. Um
but let's keep in mind he's only
pleading guilty to destruction of
government property. That's that's all
that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
in my life. Yeah. I think I think the
idea is that he was so far removed from
actually like making his realizing his
plan that the president was never really
in danger. I think that that's probably
the logic of the prosecutors in allowing
this plea. And let's also understand
that he is not a US citizen. So whenever
he's done serving his sentence, he's
going back to India under any president.
So I think that So, if that's the charge
you're being charged with, it's charge
you plead guilty to, they're going to go
off of the dollar amount, which is this
case is under 60,000,000, under 60
grand. Well, I think the judge needs to
understand the to the judge certainly
understood the totality of the
circumstances and, you know, probably
watched the video of him like waving the
Nazi flag around at at night in
front of the White House. I mean, he's
nuts. I would probably have still taken
it. Is he dangerous? I think he is
dangerous.
Five years. It's not a lot of damage.
That's your guess. Five years. I mean,
if you had said he had if you had said
they were including threatening the
president of the United States, that was
his intent. I understand, but you that's
not what he plead guilty to. Now,
they'll take that in consideration.
That's correct.
Um, now you got me thinking maybe 10
years because five or 10 I'm not trying
to talk you out of it, buddy. I just
want to make sure I understand what your
final answer is. Five or 10 years. In
between there. In between five and 10.
Between five and 10. You want to pick a
number between five and 10 or you just
want to say between zero and 100? That
way you're right every time.
Uh
um you're making me think like I to me I
thought it was very serious. I was
thinking this is very serious. I don't
want to influence you, buddy. I'm just
asking the questions. I want to say it's
very Here's what bothers me is that you
could say, you know, if you could take
it into consideration that he's insane.
Like clearly you're insane. The problem
is you are insane. But you got yourself
on a plane. You got you rented a U-Haul,
you drove the U-Haul, you were almost
like had the Nazi flag in your carry-on.
Yeah. I mean, okay. I mean, I would say
if I was taking all that into
consideration, I'd say I probably said
10 years, but I'm going to go with five
because he didn't plead guilty to that.
He only plead guilty to he only plead
guilty to destruction of government.
Destruction of government property of
under or $55,000. That doesn't seem to
me like a big charge. And I think the
judge also knows that at the end of this
thing, he goes back to India and he's no
longer our problem. And how much do you
want to have the taxpayers paying for
his care and feeding? He's also 20 years
old. Oh, he's a kid. He's just stupid.
He's just stupid. You kind of get a pass
if you're stupid. Like I always say, you
get a pass if you know women, children,
and unfortunately retards. I feel like
all Are we allowed to say that? Say
that. Never been decriminalized. Stupid
people. I think Trump signed an
executive order. We're allowed to say
decriminalizing that word. Um, I'd say
five years. Final answer. Yeah. Eight
years. Eight years.
Eight years. I should have stuck with
back to India. Five.
No. 10 would have been closer. If he if
if he if it was if they had taken the
the threatening the life of the
president more seriously, I probably
would have said higher. Yeah. Because I
know a guy I knew a guy that got seven
years in the federal system for writing
a letter to Bush. Mhm. But he already
had a a long criminal history. He was in
state prison. Yeah. And he um he there's
no air conditioning. And I tell you
this, there's no air conditioning in
state prison. And so he was saying like
how horrible it was. He was complaining
to his to his sies. And his sell said,
"You know what you need to do? You want
to be in federal prison. They have air
conditioning." And they he and he was
like, "Yeah." And they said, "You need
to write a letter to the president.
Commit a federal crime. They'll come get
you and send you to federal prison." So,
he wrote a letter saying he was going to
he was going to kill President Bush and
his do and uh uh he was going to kill
Well, you better hope that you're saying
this is concurrent, his daughters and he
was going to the dog. Which I always
thought I always liked that part. And as
a result of that, the a Secret Service
came and got him and they charged him
and he went in front of the judge and
his lawyer's like, "Listen, this is what
happened." He explained about the AC.
Yeah. Which to me, it's a reasonable
argument. That's hot in Florida. And he
they explained the judge was like,
"Yeah, I get it. I understand what he
was trying to do, but he still
threatened the president." So the dog
was never in danger. I don't think so.
And I I remember being irritated about
that. He got seven years. They give him
seven years. Seven years. And I remember
is it concurrent or consecutive? Does he
have No, that was the problem. He sent
him back and made him finish his his
state charge problem. And then
consecutive. Like don't take legal
advice from your sies. Yeah. Right.
They're not going to let you serve your
state time in federal prison if your
state time is already going running.
Anyway, yeah. So, but I always like the
fact that he threw in the dog.
Yeah. Left his fingerprints on it. You
know what the problem with him was? This
is a guy that if you talk to him, he
couldn't have gotten himself to
Washington DC like this guy could. Yeah.
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Does it have to be real? Like can it be
Batman? Dude, it's your it's your show.
It's your hero. It's your hero. Frank
Tarington. What's his name? What was was
it Fran Tarington? Fran Tarkington.
Fran wasn't him. Yeah. Which Broadway
star was your hero since you didn't
watch football?
I say it would be Batman or Iron Man.
Probably. You know why I liked both of
them? Tell me. They were just rich rich
guys with gadgets. Okay. So, I used to
think I could be that guy. If I just got
rich and had the gadgets, I could be a
superhero. I don't like Superman because
like I have to be born on another
planet. Like that's not happening. It's
a whole other thing. And I'm not willing
to be bitten by a radioactive spider to
be Spider-Man. It's asking a lot. Yeah,
it's a lot. Okay. So, yeah. Well,
there's a guy, 21-year-old Chance Senica
of Lafayette, Louisiana had a hero and
his hero was a guy named Jeffrey Dmer.
Oh my god. You know about Jeffrey Dmer,
right? I Are you kidding me? I just got
finished writing a book about a serial
killer. Yeah, this is true. This is a
good point. I This is We're coming to
the right place. See, he idolized
Jeffrey Dmer and he um all he ever
wanted to do was to eat and preserve the
bodies of his victims just like Dmer
did. Oh my god. So, Chance becomes
fixated on the fantasy of killing gay
people. So, he goes on the dating app
Grinder. You're familiar with Grinder,
right, Matt Cox?
I have heard about Grinder. Okay, just
making sure. Making sure. We don't need
to explain what Grinder is. It's like
Tinder for gay guys. Um, he picks up a
dude that he meets on the app. Um, and
so Chance meets up with his uh his date
and Chance kidnaps him at gunpoint and
brings him to an abandoned house,
handcuffs the poor guy and in the court
documents it says they he tried to
murder him. The chance failed. The
victim somehow survived and escaped and
lived to tell the tale. Must have been a
terrible day for him. I mean, I'm
nothing but compassion for this guy.
Calls the cops. The cops call the FBI in
to assist in the
investigation. Uh they immediately
arrest Chance, right? Because there's
only one suspect in this thing. And
Chance says that he really wanted to be
a serial killer of gay men. And he when
he and he said, you know, if you guys
let me go, I'm going to continue my
murder spree until I'm caught or killed
by police. He explains this to the FBI
agent in the interrogation.
While so far, nobody. Nobody. No, he's O
for one. I was going to say I'm going to
continue. What? His name should be Ofer.
Yeah. But no, he and he said he spent
months devising his foolproof plan.
Um, you know, but fortunately for gay
dudes everywhere, Chance is a bit of a
screw-up. Yeah. And failed to pull off
his first murder dismemberment, even
though he probably really really
traumatized the poor guy he met on
Grinder. Right.
FBI charges him with civil rights
violations, which is kind of a
catch-all, like when you're vi, you
know, like when you're doing something
horrible like that, you're also
violating his civil rights, but the
judge gets to take into account one's
intention and and the risk in that civil
rights violation. Um, and he pleads
guilty. PR Chance pleads guilty to his
civil rights charges in the Western
District of
Louisiana. How much time you give
Chance? Tell me first about what? Tell
me about the guy. Did he actually he
lured the guy somewhere? Did he actually
and he kidnapped him and moved him? Yes.
Yeah. At
gunpoint. Like they meet in a park to go
for a romantic walk. Pulls a gun on him
and says, "You're coming in with me. Get
in the car." Takes him to an abandoned
building like a haunted house. Criminal
history. None. 21-y old kid. 15 years.
15
years. Wanted to be a serial killer.
told the FBI he intended to continue
killing gay people and eating them. Matt
Cox, 15 years, your final answer?
Um, kidnapping. I mean, I think maybe
maybe 20. 15 to 20. You're going to end
with an L. Am I What? What is it? It's
45 years.
Oh, wow. Yeah. Wait a minute. What about
the other guy that like they they
kidnapped the guy and they moved the guy
and the the to do the the guns? Yeah.
Yeah. That's different than killing than
doing it to intend to be with your first
step toward being a serial killer. It's
a very different motivation. It's a very
different crime. It's a very different
um So, you think that statement that he
made about like I I plan to continue to
do this? I think intent matters. And I
think if you tell the police that you
intent that that if you're let out that
you're going to keep going until you're
killed killed by the police, that's the
type of thing that a judge pays
attention to. Rightfully so.
Maybe. Yeah. 45 years. I think he's got
some mental health problems. You think
so? Yeah. Yeah.
So I I I end with a lose, but overall I
I had a pretty good I would say you're
probably I would say about 9 for 12
roughly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're
in the ballpark close to 80% 70% rough.
Yeah. We should give you like a twoyear
Yeah. Next year. Yeah. Next time we're
going to need to define the rules like
Okay. What do you have a year year?
Yeah. You can't be more than 10% off.
And you can't give a fiveyear range. You
got to give a what? A one to two year
range. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. Smart guy
here. Some somewhere between two and 30
years. Yeah. Yeah. Matt, you got it
right. Congratulations, sir. You're a
real genius.
Well, the one I was like, you know, the
one where I saw I saw the one and I was
one day I saw one. I was like happened
you started to fold it over and as you
were folding I saw one the word one and
I thought, "Oh, you got one year." Yeah.
See, but had you had you not been biased
by your own attempt to cheat at your own
game, then uh I would have said Yeah.
But I said, you know, it would have been
I said it three three to five years,
right? Because he lied to the FBI. He li
like you know what's so funny is that I
love the fact that you believe that
lying to the FBI is such a serious
crime. That makes me feel good. Well, I
I think
uh I think I didn't know it was a
serious crime until you meet multiple
people in prison for and you know the
more I thought about it the more I was
like yeah you can't be you know what I'm
saying? Like don't you don't have to
talk here's here's the thing. If you
said no you have to answer questions but
I don't have to talk to you. Yeah. you
know that you can say I don't I want to
go talk to my lawyer but you think
you're going to just lie your way out of
it like you know and to because to me I
know if the FBI shows up and sits down
and starts to have a conversation with
you they already know the answers I
don't show up unless they have the
answers before if I'm asking a subject a
question. Yeah. Vastly different than
than state uh detectives who are showing
up who are typically trying to get
people to help them put together the
case. Yeah. The FBI tends to have
already have the F or federal
authorities. That's when you're
interviewing the bad guy. When you're
interviewing witnesses, I truly want to
know what happened. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
The I've had police officers complain to
me that they don't have that type of
hammer. Yeah. They don't have the
resources. Well, it's illegal for them
to lie to you. It's not illegal for me
to lie to me. I was like, I feel your
pain. Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, I was
going to say the uh but the the locals
don't have the resources that the
federal government have to put together
entire case. But also, what makes me
think of is that it's just got to be
extremely boring. Like to me, if you
said, "Hey, you can be a detective with
the county or you could be a an FBI
agent and you're gonna get paid the
same." I'd be like, "Oh, I'll pick the
county." Why is that? Because I feel
like the FBI, it's a lot of paperwork.
It's a lot of putting stuff together.
The paperwork is the same for a big city
police detective working a similar type
of case. Well, I understand, but to me,
I think that they they they tend to go
out and start questioning people and
talking like they're they're looking for
somebody to help put the put together
the case. Once they've got that kind of
they have those then they go out and try
and and charge someone where the FBI
does it different. The FBI will put
together an entire case and we know
everything about it. Now we're going to
go have a conversation with you, give
you an opportunity to to talk to us and
you say no, we're going to indict you.
Now we indict you where it's the to me
it's kind of the opposite. Say so you're
saying the police are more apt to arrest
somebody and then try to build the case
in time for trial whereas the FBI will
investigate and then arrest. Yes.
Absolutely. I think so, too. Okay. I
think in a I think that's more fun. The
FBI, the the detective side, the
detective. We get to go out and arrest
the guy and then put together the case.
So, it's not just though. I mean, isn't
it more just to investigate, build build
the probable cause? Say right or wrong.
I'm saying what would be more to me
which one would be more exciting. I get
to go talk to the guy like, "Hey, this
is what I hear." Boom. Boom. What's
going on? I get to talk to people. Yeah.
And put together a case as opposed to
I'm going to order this. I'm going to
subpoena the records. I'm going to put
together this. I'm gonna get this. I'm
gonna compile all of this information.
I'm gonna try and build the case before
I even have a conversation. Now, that's
the smarter way to do it. I'm not saying
it's not the smarter way. Yeah. I'm
saying what seems like more fun.
Well, yeah, but this is that's not the
goal of law enforcement.
Well, yeah, I get it. But, you know, I'm
trying to think like which one would you
rather do? Well, I'd rather go out and
start questioning people. Do you know do
you know what happened? Do you know who
so and so is? Well, keep in mind during
the course of any FBI investigation that
I've worked, you're talking to victims
and witnesses a lot first and then
you're making a decision when it is most
tactical to speak to the subject of the
investigation. Sometimes that is very
early in the investigation. It's not
going to culminate in an arrest or
charges, but I like to do my
interrogations and confrontation of the
subject just when I have enough
information because I don't want them
catching wind of the investigation. I
want the first time them learning about
an FBI investigation is when I knock on
their door, smile at them, and tell them
that I just need some help. I got some
questions. I want to understand your
side of the story
and let them bury themselves. And let
them bury themselves because they're not
in custody. I don't have to mirandize
them, right? We're going to we're going
to share share a plate of fries and talk
about this awful situation that they
find themselves in. Oh my gosh. Um, what
else? Okay, that's all I got for you,
man. That's it.
Maybe maybe I don't know. I have to I
might have to rethink my my FBI versus
detective local detective thing here.
Really thinking about thinking about it
that way. The FBI gets to choose their
battles more also. Like the FBI rejects
cases all the time. Like it's not the
best use of our time. And I think the
detectives are sort of cases are thrust
upon them more. Mhm. And uh and you
know, it's just a it's it's a more it's
I think the detective probably has a
more difficult job because they're not
as well resourced and they're they're
probably a lot more overloaded with
cases than the typical agent. Yeah, I
definitely think that they're they're uh
that they don't have the resources that
the uh federal agents have. If anybody
needs any private investigative needs,
where should they go? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
That whole thing. So, I've been getting
calls lately from Matt Cox viewers, and
everyone's so nice. Your fans are the
best. But sometimes they'll contact me
because they need have a need for a
private investigator or they need that.
And I'm always happy to take calls from
Matt Cox people for free consultation.
So anyone who in the Matt Cox audience
who needs a private investigator, I work
in all 50 states can contact me and for
free consultation. And if they know
someone who needs it, I will always make
time for their referrals.
You know, I I you know, I saw you. You
don't want to throw in there, but if you
don't have the ability to pay me, well,
don't waste the guy's got to eat, right?
Hey you guys, I appreciate you watching.
You don't have to lean back. You're
not Hey you guys, I appreciate you
watching. Do me a favor, hit the
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Please share the video. Also, if you if
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Um and he's got other platforms, so
check those out. Follow him. Subscribe.
Really appreciate you guys watching.
Thank you very much. See you. See you.
All right. Uh really quick,
um I'm just going to have both of you
say this because I don't it's hard to
remember who said what. So, both of you
say green and grass or weed. Green
grass. green grass. You know, wait, I
know what he he was uh it was um Disney.
He said Disney weed. Disney weed. What
could you want him to say? Disney. So,
you can put the whole Disney green. You
can You can You said it a couple times,
so I'm going have to I'm go back. But
Disney green. Disney green. Disney
green. And say the uh say you said they
opened up a uh marijuana themed
marijuana themed park. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh, just say hold on, give me a sec. You
can't say marijuana. No. Well, well,
yeah, we had a guy come on that does
talks about like medical weed or
something and uh yeah, that can say
cannabis. Is that different? Um, I would
just say green or grass. I think
cannabis would be fine. All right. If
you want to
uh be a big issue, but All right. All
right. Um,
it's just gonna be a green themed
resort. Yeah. Yeah. a a canvas. If you
say I think the marijuana I can leave it
in there. You say grass. The grass. You
can do this. Who the [ __ ] going to
know what we're talking about? A quote
unquote. You have to do seem to care
like All right.
Um they were going to convert the lodge
to a grass theme park.
Yeah, that should be good. Um for for
people who wanted to get high and watch
the northern lights. Yeah. Um, and then
just say powder, Tom. Powder. You too.
Just in case. Powder. What did we say
that was powder? Someone said cocaine
once or twice. Not me.
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