She ends up sending $16,000 in Bitcoin
to who she thought was Keanu Reeves. 50
people invest money with him and he
brings in $30
if there's a secret trading program
among the banks of Europe where they're
trading these bank instruments to
produce astronomical rates of return.
Those investments do not exist. I
remember the ghost payroll scheme. What
was what's going on with that one?
Ghost payroll schemes are interesting
because the bad guy is nearly always the
payroll clerk at a company. And so I had
one case in Hawaii where a company a
company was a security guard
contractor at Pearl Harbor. Not so much
the military base but the tourist
attraction there where you would go see
the Arizona and all that. And so they
supplied the all the security guards to
stand there to make sure everyone's
behaving themselves. So you have the
company headquarters in Honolulu and
then you have dozens and dozens of
employees, you know, and maybe even a
couple hundred
working a few, you know, 30 miles away
at Pearl Harbor.
So those employees are basically the
inventory of the company because they're
billing out out to the I guess the US
Navy at a certain or the US government
at a certain dollar amount. And so those
people never went to the main office.
They were reporting to work every day.
Right.
And so there was a woman named Nani
Cabral who was the payroll clerk working
in the Honolulu office there. And what
she was doing is she put I think three
or four people on the payroll of the
company who did not exist as human
beings and began basically clocking them
in and out every couple days and
generating paychecks or direct deposits
for labor that never happened. You
follow that?
Yeah. Well what So I I already have a
question.
Yeah.
One, are these
real They're not They're You're saying
they're fake but are they real social
security numbers? Are they like how does
Right. One of them was completely
fictitious and didn't exist as a person.
And my understanding is that two were
people who were terminated from the
company and then she created the
illusion that they were rehired on their
social security numbers but changed the
direct deposit information from their
paychecks to bank accounts under her
control.
Okay.
It makes sense.
under her control, not in her name, but
somebody else opened them up.
one was a friend of hers or a sister or
family member, but the other was her
14-year-old granddaughter.
Right.
Right.
I I always It always kills me when
somebody thinks that that's how they're
like, "Well, I'm not going to put it in
my name. I'm going to put it in my my
sister's." Oh, cuz the FBI would never
put that together.
Right.
You know, or "I'm not going to have the
credit cards mailed to my house. I'm
going to have it mailed to my cousins."
Well,
when the FBI shows up and says, "Do you
know this person?" they're going to go,
"Oh, that's my cousin Jimmy." Because
your cousin works at Walmart and he's
just a normal citizen. And then your
most people's natural response is
when they see it, when they're asked by
law enforcement, is to cooperate. So,
that's what they're going to do. "Do you
know this guy? That's my cousin. Yeah,
that's my cousin Jimmy. Why?"
Like, so you might as well just put it
in your account.
You might as well at that point. And so,
the what happens is this. This goes on
for quite a while. I think probably over
a year, and where she's enjoying these
paychecks for these fictitious ghost
employees.
And uh and taking that money and using
it to enhance her lifestyle. And then
the company has a labor dispute with
their security guards that ended up
going to the Department of Labor and
being adjudicated there about whether
they need whether the time spent by the
security guards getting into their and
out of their uniforms was time that was
on the clock or not.
The company's position is we don't have
to pay the security guards get dressed.
Right.
The The security guards' position was
that well, no, we're reporting to work
in our civilian clothing. We're going to
the locker room there at Pearl Harbor,
and we're putting on our security guard
uniforms. That should be time on the
clock.
The labor The security guards win that
fight. And so, each one of them is due a
sizable paycheck as a settlement in this
lawsuit. Okay? In order to receive that
paycheck, they need to actually
physically come into the office and sign
the legal forms saying that this is our
settlement check and receive their
settlement check.
At the end, well, at the end after all
the employees had been there, there are
three checks remaining. And then these
are the three checks of the ghost
employees who who were not able to come
in to the legal department of this
company and sign off on it. And then
they began researching, who are these
people? Where are these people? Right.
And then the whole thing began to
unravel.
So,
at what point were you contacted? Who
contacted you and how How do you go in
and
Right. So, the security guard company's
attorneys begin to suspect that there's
a ghost payroll scheme unfolding here
and that these people are not real. They
contact the FBI. I get assigned the
case. And so, first thing I do is begin
taking a look into the bank accounts
that the direct deposits are being made
to and I see that one of them is a
14-year-old girl. I began pulling bank
security videos. And what we see is
these the car of Nanette Cabral, the
payroll person, pulling up every every
other week on payday outside the bank
and her sending her 14-year-old
granddaughter into the bank to withdraw
the pay the money in cash so she could
enjoy it.
So, what did did First of all, I'm
wondering, did she realize all this was
happening and it was going to catch up
with her or or when you walked in the
door to talk to her, was that the first
she
She had been I think either terminated
or suspended from her job. So, she
they figured she was involved.
was important that they get her out of
the out of there so you know, the
evidence could be preserved. And then me
and a brand new agent right out of the
academy went to go to her house to knock
on the door to interview her.
What did she say? I'm waiting for you.
She invited us into her living room
because she was from Hawaii and people
there are very friendly and and
hospitable. And so, sat in her living
room and said, "Listen, I wanted to talk
to you about this situation at work. You
know, there were some employees that
were placed on the payroll that weren't
actually doing any work and I want to
understand what your position was as the
payroll clerk. Did you know anything
about this? She said, "No, I didn't know
anything about this."
And so then I scooted my chair around
the table and sat next to her and put my
hand on her arm and said, "Nanny, we
need to talk." And I go, "This is
there's an easy way and a hard way this
can happen. And
and we know what occurred. We we have
all the records. We know where the money
was going. We know how this all went
down. I think it might be in your best
interest to take the path of least
resistance and tell me your side of the
story. Cuz I don't believe that you did
this because you're a bad person. I
believe you did this because you have an
extraordinary for money in your life to
support your family and kind of pay the
bills." And then she broke down
immediately and gave me a full
confession.
You didn't pull out the the surveillance
photos first? No didn't
need I mean I was able to I had all that
in my back pocket, but bef- before I was
going to be doing a presentation of the
evidence, I just wanted to kind of
express the confidence to her that we
knew what happened.
Right.
And and while I can't make a deal and
say you're going to get less time in
prison,
Right.
I can explain to them that historically
the path of least resistance will be
much easier on her and her family rather
than digging in her heels and fighting
this. And she and that resonated with
her.
So, how much what was the total?
By the time it was over, the loss was
quantified at $224,000
that she had enjoyed as paychecks from
these fictitious employees.
Um
what's the other question I was going to
ask say is that
do you ever when you talk to him, do you
ever mention like, "Look, you know,
lying to an FBI agent is a federal
crime. You don't want to typically
I I don't I I know agents who do and um
and you know, I I I try to appeal to I'm
never trying to threaten them. I'm never
trying to explain, but I wanted to I'm
trying to express confidence that we
know exactly what happened, but what we
don't know is why they did it. Right?
And I think it with her I was saying,
"Were you doing this to party and have
fun or you doing this to support your
family?" You know, cuz one one one makes
you one makes you a monster and the
other makes you someone who's just
trying to support your family and who
could disagree with that. So, I like to
steer the conversation more toward what
was your motive? Like we know you did
it, so let's set that aside. I'm
assuming the sale there.
Yeah, yeah.
But uh what I want to do is understand
your motivation and then they generally
begin talking about their motivation and
the financial stresses they were
experiencing. I mean Hawaii is very
expensive, right? And so and that's how
I often get people to confess. I mean it
she wasn't a hard case. She wasn't I
mean and she wasn't a a lifelong
criminal or con woman. She was an
embezzler.
Was she driving a Mercedes? Was there a
Mercedes?
living large, you know. I mean her house
was nice. It was nicer than my house.
And uh but but you know
Was did she have that house prior to all
this?
Um yeah, but I I don't know what the
mortgage situation was on it. I mean
looking at how she was spending the
money, it wasn't on anything that
extravagant. I mean adding $224,000
into your family's life in Hawaii isn't
isn't a game changer. It seems like a
lot of money. I I
I would love to have a 200 uh
$24,000 windfall, but the as a realistic
matter, it wasn't what she wasn't
lighting cigars with $100 bills or
anything like that.
I wonder what she was I wonder what you
know I I
I've often talked to guys who've
committed financial crimes and a lot of
times they they never have an end game.
It's like I can get this money and they
never realize like okay, well wait a
minute. Right. At some point isn't
someone going to come looking? Well,
yeah, but I'll have already got it. I'll
be gone. No, no.
Will they you know, they don't think
that far in advance most people.
Yeah, the the I started my career doing
bank embezzlements and so the tellers
and the bank managers, they're always
stealing the money, but in their mind
the way they rationalize is they tell
themselves that they're borrowing the
money and they're going to return it
when their ship comes in, whatever that
means. They're going to get the numbers
on the lottery and they're just going to
like slip that $100,000 back into the
vault and no one's going to know.
Um
Oh man, did you ever hear about real
quick and I'll just keep going but this
is when you just mentioned the
bank thing. So,
in China there were there and I want to
say it was the Bank of China. I think
you've we've talked about this before.
There was a There were two
two employees at like the Bank of China
and
they actually have like cash, like tons
of just stacks and stacks of cash.
Right.
And one guy at one point took like a
million dollars and went out and bought
and I'm sure I got the number wrong.
Went out and bought lottery tickets.
Mhm.
And scratched them off and Now the the
worst that thing that happened was this.
He won.
Okay.
So he ended up winning out of the
lottery tickets, let's say he borrowed a
million. It might have been 100,000,
whatever. Let's say a million. He ended
up making like 1.3 million.
And then of course, you know, so it was
a windfall and he was able to put the
money back.
Mhm.
So he But it was such a small amount of
money that
you know, as far as volume-wise, nobody
caught it. But if you So he went back in
and he went to the other guy that's like
in charge of the vault and basically
broke down what he had done and said
let's steal
like 10 million dollars. And so they go
to
He couldn't quit while he was ahead.
No. And I would think that's the worst
that happened was he made 300,000. Like
he it worked. So that that's what buried
him. Had it not worked or had he not He
could have put that back some of it and
maybe they would have called it an
accounting error, maybe it wouldn't have
been such a big deal. But instead they
go in and they take and I probably have
the But it was it was an outrageous
amount of money. Let's say it's 10
million dollars. They spent like the
whole like a three-day weekend or
something scratching off like they were
literally like bleeding. They were
scratching so many. And of course they
don't win.
No.
Like they The lottery's a rip-off.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Like it was And
it wasn't even close, you know? So
anyway, they end up
very quickly people start to realize
like something's wrong here. Like there
was this pile There were three piles,
now there's two. And so they end up
taking off.
It the whole scam un- unravels. They get
caught very quickly cuz they still had
cash. And so they're paying for things
cash. And you know, they're going from
one jurisdiction to another having to
show um passports and whatever travel
docs that
Yeah.
And so very quickly they bought a car
cash. Very quickly they get found. And
both of them were executed.
Yeah, I was going to say I I could only
imagine what the penalties are in China
for white-collar crimes. It's uh
Actually, I think that there was one or
two security guards because there was so
much money they had to go to them and
tell them what they were doing and to
get them to look the other way while
they stuck the money out. Those guys got
like five or 10 years hard labor or
something ridiculous. But
Yeah, I couldn't imagine wanting to
commit any kind of financial crime in
like China or Saudi Arabia or any
country that takes that takes criminal
justice like crazy seriously. Yeah.
Um so what else is going on? We got
We'll talk about the the the epilogue.
So Judy Cabral
yeah, she pled guilty. And there was
nowhere else for her to go. And she got
21 months in prison. And which was about
right. It was kind of the low end of the
sentencing guidelines. She was sort of a
pathetic character more than a master
criminal. But um the other thing I think
that people
That's not we worth unpacking. She'll be
in a halfway house in in a year.
Right. And the comment I always get when
I tell stories like this is well, hell,
I I would spend 21 months in prison for
$224,000. What they don't understand is
that she's got this restitution bill
hanging
Yeah.
over her head, right? Cuz after she's
done with her 21 months, she has 3 years
of federal probation called supervised
release.
And during that window of time, if she's
earning any money, the government's then
garnishing her wages to get to pay back
the victim. Most people never pay back
the victim in full. And they have this
restitution
hanging over their head forever. But but
it's not like it's a free money. You're
not trading $221,000
or whatever for 21 months.
Yeah, even well, first of all, even when
the supervision is over, you still owe
that money.
Yeah.
You got you end up with a judgement.
Mhm.
And then that follows you around because
they'll attach your house.
Right.
And so it's like
even if you said, "You know what? I'm
not going to pay it. I can't afford it.
I'm not going to pay it." Okay, well now
you got this judgement. So if you want
to buy a house or you have a house or
you you know it does it will follow you
forever.
barnacle. Yeah, it's not yeah, it's a
bad deal. And so so when when the smart
me kids in my comments talk about like,
"Well, I would do that for easy. I would
do I could do 21 months standing on my
head." It's not that easy. It ends up
being a bit of a life sentence unless
you have some kind of windfall to truly
pay back the victim.
Oh and then can you imagine that? Like
suddenly you make $300,000 and
government says, "Oh no.
Right. Well, can I have some of it? No.
No, you owe 250,000. You can have 50.
Exactly.
And you're paying tax on the whole
thing. So we're going to take that too.
It's just not worth it.
Right.
It's just not worth it.
Right.
Anyway, so that's the Nanny Cabral
story. The answer for companies who want
to make sure that they are not
victimized by ghost payroll schemes is
to every now and then figure out a way
to take attendance to to reconcile the
people getting direct deposits or
paychecks or pay stubs with the people
with your labor force. This this type of
scheme only works in companies where
there's a physical separation between
your workers and the administrative
office.
Right.
And and and so in this case I I also had
another case someone kind of bore you
with the details but involved a parking
garage where they had all these parking
garage employees and kind of people
driving shuttle buses to and from the
garage
um and the headquarters was elsewhere.
We had a guy there who's using an app
based system to log in and out fake
employees. So you see these ghost
payroll schemes again and again and
again and companies need to worry about
it if they have a large employee base
that's never seen by the corporate
headquarters.
Do you have a mass mailing scheme?
I It's funny you should ask Matt Cox. I
do have a story about a mass mailing
scheme. This guy was named Ronald Maria.
This is another story that goes back to
Hawaii.
And he was kind of an old school
fraudster uh
using a
a old school way of defrauding. He I
think he took a page from the kind of
Nigerian defrauders. He ended up buying
a mailing list and and you could buy
mailing lists of senior citizens who
have fallen for frauds in the past. You
can get these off the internet. And so
he had a list of like a thousand names
of senior citizens who had and he had
fallen for some kind of fraud here or
there in the past.
And instead of emailing them, what he
did is he actually wrote them all
letters. And the letter said that he was
the president of the Ronald Maria Trust
and he was a multi-billionaire
and he had chosen this recipient of this
letter to be a part of the Ronald Maria
Trust where they would kind of become
part of the trust. He was very vague
about what that meant in the initial
letter. And then all of their bills
would be taken care of for the rest of
their lives. And and so
because that happens. Completely
preposterous, right?
Right.
And it didn't really work, right? So he
sends out a thousand of these, one guy
responds. This 80-something year old guy
in Sammamish, Washington.
And he responds said I'd like to learn
more.
And then they begin communicating via
email. And I got my hands on the entire
email chain.
And it and the old man explained that he
had been married for 50 years to the
same woman or like 60 years, some
astronomical amount of years. And his
wife was suffering from severe
Alzheimer's disease and she could and he
was her caregiver.
And so he was changing her diapers,
feeding her. There was nothing that he
you wouldn't do to help help his wife.
And Ronald Maria pounced on that and
said that he had developed a cure for
Alzheimer's disease.
So it just so happens.
What luck.
Yeah.
And so the old man would have done
anything to get his wife back and
latched onto this one piece of hope that
it was being offered by Ronald Maria.
And they um
And Ronald Maria said, "All you need to
do is join the Ronald Maria Trust." The
old man's was "What do I have to do?"
And he goes, "The first thing you need
to do is put your assets into the trust
and then I'll begin paying your bills."
And so with with your money.
So the old man then began
liquidating his assets, sending the
balances of his bank accounts to Ronald
Maria, and the bills kept piling up.
Ronald Maria wasn't paying anything. He
was just enjoying that money for
himself.
And the then he began having the old man
get credit cards under his name and then
getting cash and then maxing out the
credit cards, getting cash advances, and
sending that money to Ronald Maria. He
had his social security direct deposits
changed to Ronald Maria's bank account.
So it was being deposited in in Ronald's
bank account. And so basically he got
this man so wrapped around the axle
promising that he was going to save his
wife that he was going out there and
having, you know, he would have his IRS
tax refunds routed to Ronald Maria. And
and the bills were not getting paid.
He's getting letters from the bank and
everything's kind of going really poorly
for him. $682,000
this man gave Ronald Maria to save his
wife. And Ronald Maria just took that
money and spent it like a drunken
sailor.
Wow.
I learned about this case when the old
man's like daughters, who were like in
their 40s or 50s themselves,
you know, got went to the house and saw
the stack of unpaid bills, you know,
credit cards that they didn't know dad
had and and began asking him questions.
He referred them to his AOL email
address. The girls start looking at it
and just lost their minds. They're like,
"Oh my god, Dad." And they contacted the
FBI, which is how I got the case. And so
I began And so the FBI, one thing to
understand is that we
generally don't work single victim
frauds, you know, unless it's like a big
corporation embezzlement. Believe that
aside. For for advanced fee schemes or
investment frauds, the we generally want
to see multiple victims there.
Figure if there's just one victim if
it's a dispute between one victim and
one bad guy, they can sue each other in
physical court in civil court rather.
It's very rare that we're going to work
a one victim case, but to me, I I
lobbied for this case even though it was
a one victim case with the US Attorney's
Office because I felt that the the
behavior was so egregious. Right. And so
began putting it together looking at
seized and Ronald Murray have any assets
I could seize. No, he was just kind of
spending it on worthless stuff. He was
leasing cars and renting cars and stuff
that wasn't he was smart about that.
There wasn't any assets I could really
kind of latch on to. He had pretty much
depleted his bank account at that point.
Um and so I finally confronted him and
had him come into the FBI office to come
talk to me and he presented his point of
view that he did he felt he had the
ability to do this this trust and it was
more aspirational and I said, well, that
doesn't count and and and so he ended up
signing a confession there in my office
and um
I mean, he really tried to justify it?
At first he was trying to rationalize
it. He wasn't saying this never
happened. He was saying saying, well,
you know, I do have a trust and I said,
well, you know,
where is this trust? Have
is it something that's been filed? Where
are the bank accounts for your trust?
And he said, well, you know, there are
no bank accounts for the trust. It was
more notional. And it was it was a goofy
explanation and it was a goofy guy.
And so we
you know, we indicted him and then
arrested him and then uh
and then you know, he bonds out and then
he ended up plea
Bonds out?
Well, you bond out because he's not a
flight risk and he's not a danger to the
community. And those are the only two
things
Seems like a danger to the community.
I think the I mean, only the over 80
community. Right. I think the idea was
that he was not going to be committing
crimes while he's out on bond. I don't
think he did and um
And so then he gets sentenced
to 41 months in prison and
it was weird. I remember after the
sentencing like I normally don't have
like a hard on for my bad guys. It's me
it's to me it's just business like you
know, and so
But this guy I found him so
reprehensible what he did to this old
man. Like absolutely just gutted his
life and
and took away his family's future and
did it like latching on to this man's
love for his wife and the Alzheimer's
thing just just offended me. And I
remember
Ronald Mario is a weird guy. He came up
to me after the sentencing and and
wanted to shake my hand and like you
know, like good game. And I I told him
just to get the hell out of there. I
don't want to shake his hand and told
him to leave. And so that was the and
and he went and served his time and I
have no idea where he is now.
Um how old was he?
He was probably Let's see. I was like
40. He was probably like my age, 40, 42.
Um
Hm. That I was just going to say that uh
Did you ever see the movie
uh Matchstick Men?
Oh, man. If I did it was way back in the
day.
They basically they would make phone
calls to people
and they would say this is the one of
many scams that they were running. It's
a great movie. They would make phone
calls to people
and
um
get you on the phone to buy like a water
filter or something, right? And so you
buy it. And then they would jump in
their car and they would go to the
residence and knock on the door and say,
"Hey, we're with the FBI. Have you
recently been contacted by someone
buying selling water filters?" And and
they're like, uh
yeah. And they're an elderly couple and
they're like, you know, but they're
still only late 60s maybe early 70s.
And so the woman's like, "Well, yeah. I
I bought it because we we won a vacation
prize with it. It comes with it. And the
filter wasn't that much." And he's like,
"Ma'am, you've been You didn't Did you
pay with a credit card?" And then she's
like, uh
yeah, you know, and they're like, uh and
we better come in. So they come in and
they
explain you've been a victim of a scam.
Most likely they're going to take
everything in your bank account. We can
stop that from happening and get your
money back. You just need to
fill out the this form which gives us
access to your bank account so we can
stop that from happening. They Of course
they think, "Well, it's FBI. Of course
we're going to They fill out the form.
They go straight to their bank account.
Wipe them out.
Yeah, I've seen online versions of that
where
where you know scammers overseas were
from India, Nigeria, or wherever are
pretending to be the FBI kind of
revictimizing the people who've been
ripped off.
That's what I was saying.
If you're a People don't realize like if
you're a victim, you're even more likely
to be revictimized.
Yeah. You know, you would think, "Oh no,
well, you you're not going to hit me
twice." No, no, you're even Especially
if you're saying, "I'm trying to get you
your money back." Then it's even easier
to get them.
Dig this. I got a call on Saturday from
a woman who believed she was in an
online romantic relationship with Keanu
Reeves. And the
And she had met him online met Keanu
Reeves online and and he immediately
switched the conversation over to
Telegram, the communication app. And and
Keanu Reeves was explaining to his new
soulmate that he had been his money had
been locked up by the IRS. His account
had been frozen due to some
misunderstanding. And but he needed some
money So he needed some money from his
his new girlfriend that he would pay
back as soon as the he had this all
sorted out. She ends up sending $16,000
in Bitcoin to who she thought was Keanu
Reeves. And then she begins having some
misgivings thinking maybe this wasn't
Keanu Reeves.
It gets better. And so then she was
contacted via Telegram by former FBI
agent and private investigator Tom Simon
out of the blue. With my face and
everything like that. I'm not on
Telegram. Never been on Telegram.
And then this fake version of me wanted
$4,000 from her to get the $16,000 back.
And she was just about ready to send the
the Bitcoin to the fake Tom Simon.
Tom Simon asked for Bitcoin?
Yeah, shut up. That's common, right?
Yeah. And
and then she decided she wanted to just
double-check it out. She Googles me,
finds my phone number, and calls me on
Saturday morning. And I said, "I've
never spoken to you.
Uh there's someone who's who's
pretending to be me online to steal from
you and I'm going to break it to you
gently that wasn't Keanu Reeves.
Right. That That I was going to say that
reminds me of the That's very similar to
the Tinder Swindler.
Yeah.
Uh did you ever watch that?
It was a great documentary.
great documentary. I was I was in shock
at how many
women he was juggling and was able to
convince
But he also was all in. Like he's
picking up one He's using the money of
one woman to wine and dine the next one
and then taking her money and like he
just kept going and going. He was But he
was blowing all the money. Like I'll
tell you once again it's like where does
this end?
But it was so international that it he
had done it forever and it wasn't
catching up with him.
Yeah, amazing. Netflix has been killing
it lately with their true crime
documentaries.
They've had some amazing ones.
That I think it's the same film crew did
like Tinder Swindler, that Don't F With
Cats was pretty amazing and then that
latest one American
uh Nightmare.
American Nightmare. Wow, that was heavy.
Yeah, that was uh I was going to say
there was another one that I thought was
amazing was um
for
it actually was because it was just so
over the top bizarre was um Bad Vegan.
Did you ever see that one?
No, no.
You should see that one. It's one of
these things where at first you're like,
"Yeah, I could see that." And then it
gets progressively worse and worse and
you're like, "What are you thinking?"
Like at this point like I I get it. He's
a Don Juan kind of guy. You lend him a
little money here, little there. But But
then it got to the point where it was
just absolutely bizarre what he was
saying. It was like at this point you
had to say to yourself like,
"This is not right. Something's very
wrong here."
Yeah, I got to check that out.
It's super interesting. And what was so
interesting too was he This guy had put
her into contact with somebody who was
verifying everything he said. Kind of
like his his handler with the CIA. But
really it's just him with another email.
Yeah. So
She But she's like, "Yeah, but you know,
John said John John's just an email.
It's him, you know, it's It was It was
really It was really interesting because
they actually had someone play that
character in an interview. So, while
you're
hearing his version of how he was being
emailed
by her
and backing up
the main subject's
you think, well, he I the whole time
you're thinking he exists. And then
suddenly you realize
he doesn't exist. They're just having
some they play the email character.
Yeah.
Oh, it's it's it's great. It's a great
It's awesome. I got to check that out.
Like I
I would love to get in bed with Netflix
to do a documentary with them.
Well, wouldn't that be nice?
Yeah, I know you probably would too.
It's just there there's they just do
such a nice job of unfolding these
otherwise benign crime stories and
making just them edge-of-the-seat
entertainment.
Right. Well, you know what what what
happens is
the way it works is like it's a
production company
Yeah.
goes to them and pitches it and cuz
trust me, Netflix has heard my name.
Yeah.
They're not interested in my story, but
anyway.
Right, yeah. I thought it was
interesting because he was gone and you
thought I'm just going to put so much
pressure on this guy.
His name is Peter Hickman.
Okay.
And he was a German national and he was
a very very talented music producer. And
so, um, you know, hadn't really made it
huge yet, but like, you know, local
Hawaiian artists would hire him to
produce their their CDs back when that
was a thing. And and he was really good.
But he wasn't making a fortune doing it.
And he was living on the Hawaiian island
of Kauai, which is a very kind of
insular community. And he came up with
an investment plan.
And his story to the people of Kauai,
and there's a lot of money in Kauai.
It's kind of a haves and have-nots
society. And and he was running with the
haves. And he was telling them that and
he he took dozens of people's money
telling them that he what he was going
to be doing is getting old Apple
computers and Macintoshes and
refurbishing them with kind of new hard
drives and upgrading everything and then
reselling them. And then he could do
that at a tremendous profit. And he was
promising people astronomical rates of
return, you know, double your money in
90 days type stuff. And he took in 1.2
million dollars from people on Kauai for
this investment plan, and he did pay
some back, but there he was paying them
back with other people's money, right?
What we call a Ponzi scheme. And he was
also enjoying the proceeds himself
because Kauai, like all the Hawaiian
Islands, is very expensive.
And so time marches on, and the FBI gets
the case. It wasn't my case, it was
someone else's case at the time. And
he's indicted for uh for this fraud. Um
and so he's uh you know, I think he
surrendered at that point, and then he
was in plea negotiations, and then he
disappears into thin air.
So does he plead guilty and bond?
guilty. He's during the plea negotiation
process, while he's out awaiting trial,
um but again, he he has a has an
attorney who's trying to like, you know,
federal defender who's trying to
negotiate the plea for him, and then
Heckman just disappears into thin air.
No one knows where he is. Uh I don't
think they got his passport. And
um and so time So time marches on, I get
to Hawaii, I'm assigned the case, but
not the case to investigate the fraud.
That had been done by someone smarter
and better looking. My job was to find
Heckman.
And so I use some pretty sophisticated
investigative techniques, and I began
Googling Peter Heckman.
And I found that he was on the
Indonesian island of Bali, living quite
comfortably, producing local music
artists with his with his record label.
The problem is Indonesia is one of those
countries that does not have an
extradition treaty with the US.
Right. Well, it was he a US citizen? You
said he was German.
He's a German national living legally in
the US,
but now he's in So that's Does that even
make it harder?
Makes it completely harder. I was
stymied. He's he could literally sit on
the beach with his middle finger raised
toward Hawaii, and and there's nothing
we could do about it because the
Indonesian government was not going to
serve him up to us.
Okay.
So I come up with a scheme.
My first scheme was it I was going to I
did an undercover operation where I told
him that I had a band named Frenzy that
I wanted him to produce.
It was my son's band, allegedly, and I
wanted him to produce the record because
I heard heard one of his records that he
had done
for a Filipino rock band and I really
liked the sound. And so, I'm
communicating with him via email in an
undercover capacity. And and he's like,
"Yeah, come on out to Bali." I'm like,
"You know what? I told him we worked on
the on the island of Saipan. Do you know
much about Saipan?"
No.
Saipan is in the Northern Mariana
Islands.
But, they have an extradition treaty,
right?
It's about a 3-hour flight from Guam.
You don't know this, but Saipan is a US
territory.
We invaded the Ger- the Japanese had
invaded it and taken it during World War
II and then we took it back. And so, the
Northern Mariana Islands is a US
territory, but most people don't know
that. And I was counting on the idea
that Heckman would not know that.
Right.
Most people don't know that. But, and my
assumption was that Heckman didn't
wouldn't know that, either.
So, what I did was I told Heckman that
that we'd be happy to fly him to to
Bali, I'm sorry, from Bali to to Saipan
and pay for all his expenses while he's
there in exchange for recording this
band. And um
and so, he he agreed. And so, I paid for
a round-trip plane ticket uh using FBI
money and I flew to Saipan and I'm
standing there at the airport and he
never showed. He stood us up.
And uh
Did you find out why? Did he just drop
off the
an excuse. He said he was having heart
palpitations and went to the hospital
and um
and but he didn't show. And so, I I'm
So, I came back I flew all the way to
Saipan. It was like an 8-hour flight and
then flew all the way back to Honolulu
with my tail between my legs because I
was flying back without Heckman.
Did you try and get him again? Like, are
you feeling better?
I looked like a jerk to my
Hold on. I looked like a jerk
to my And the conversation just sort of
And so, at one point I told him funny,
Kanye West was on um
was in Hawaii recording his album 808s &
Heartbreak at the time. And And so, I
got back to him and said, "Hey, listen,
this is crazy, but my college roommate
still my undercover capacity, my college
roommate is Kanye West's manager. And
And And And he said that Kanye would be
willing to be on a track with Frenzy,
the band. So, if you could come back to
Saipan, Kanye is willing to fly out
there to do a track. This is going to be
a big deal for you, it's going to be a
big deal for me." And uh and there was
in It It didn't go anywhere.
Okay.
And bottom line is, the whole thing kind
of fizzled out.
Do you feel like he knew? He felt like
I thought he probably did, but he's
playing his role as like the honest guy.
He had changed his his name to Hans
Heckman at the time, but it was still
Peter Heckman.
Right.
And so, the
And so, I I And the whole thing kind of
went away, but it was seething inside
me. I was thinking, "Oh my god, I'm so
angry. One, that he made me look like a
monkey with my colleagues. And two, you
know, that he burned me for a plane
ticket." And um
And so, I I thought, "You know what? Why
not just do what I do?" And I began
contacting the musical artists on his
record label.
And most of whom were were Balinese and
Indonesian kind of folk groups.
Basically, sending them articles that,
"Hey, listen, this guy that you are
associated with is a con artist. And And
he's And he's ripped people off, and
he's a fugitive from the law hiding. Do
you want to be associated with him?" And
then there's a local TV station that I
have a good relationship with in Hawaii
called Hawaii News Now. It's like the
their uh their local TV It's the CBS and
the NBC affiliate in Hawaii. And I
contacted a reporter, and I began doing
stories on the news about this fugitive
that we're looking for who's in
Indonesia. We know exactly where he is
but we're and we're trying to get him
back. And so it became this big thing
and it kind of went viral and you know
on YouTube these stories of me ranting
and raving like a lunatic about this con
artist hiding in Indonesia and how dare
he steal from the people and who are
these musical artists who are doing
business with this guy?
And so after about a week of that, I
sent him an email
asking him, "Hey, have you had enough?"
Right.
And he's like, "Yeah, I have had enough.
What can we do to resolve this?" And so
I put him in touch with an FBI agent who
was at the embassy in Jakarta
and they flew together voluntarily and
met me in Honolulu and he surrendered
himself to me.
Okay.
And so
And so I mean he didn't come in
handcuffs because
we couldn't arrest him in Indonesia.
Obviously once he arrived in Honolulu,
he was under arrest but at that point he
came back voluntarily. He was tired of
being a fugitive. He was tired of kind
of living looking over his shoulder
waiting for the next shoe to drop. I had
rolled a grenade into his very
comfortable life as a music producer.
His record label His artists are pissed
off at him because of me. He's all Now,
you know, for that window of time if you
Googled him or anything about him or the
bands that he worked with, he was
associated with this fraud and running.
And so that amount of pressure he
thought he would take the path of least
resistance, put this behind him, go back
to Germany which is probably where he
wanted to be to begin with and begin
rebuilding his life.
Right.
So we're in the car. We're driving to
the FBI office from the airport. You
know, he arrived at like in the
morning on a red eye and he uh
he asked if we he can stop and have a
cigarette. I was like, "Yeah." And so we
we pull over on the side of the road and
the highway in Hawaii and he's like
leaning against the roof of my car
smoking a cigarette and I said, "I got
to ask you, when we contact when you got
that email from us saying that you know,
that we wanted you to go to Saipan to
produce this record, did you know it was
us?" He goes, "Yeah, I knew it was you
all along.
So, I wasn't fooling anybody.
And so,
um so, Heckmann, again, nicest guy in
the world talking to him. I mean, he was
one of those Ponzi schemes that just
sort of got out of hand and um
I'm certainly not rationalizing his
behavior. I mean, he took $1.2 million
from innocent people who will never see
that money back cuz he was extra he was
deported back to um
Germany after he did his time and he got
44 months in prison and then got sent
back to Germany and so, I don't think
anybody restitution money, but I finally
got my man as a result of just putting
kind of like using the media and social
media to put pressure on him to just
surrender and put this behind him. But
um my understanding is that he's still
alive and well and and probably
producing music and he's a very talented
guy and I suspect he's learned his
lesson from this this crazy few years of
his life that he was on the run from the
FBI and I wish him nothing but the best.
Yeah, you would hope so, right? Um
I was going to say, have you ever had
anybody where they went back to their,
you know, country of origin and they
wouldn't release them back to the United
States like
I didn't have a whole lot of that I
mean, I think I I suspect that some of
my I still had some outstanding
fugitives when I retired and I don't
know where they are, but um without me
identifying where they are, um it's
difficult to make that ask of the
government. I mean, we could certainly
ask their their home governments. But
most people most foreign governments are
not
um super excited about sending their
citizens to the US to face trial unless
it's something that truly shocks the
conscience like a triple homicide or
something like that. So, it only an
extradition only really works if there's
a third-party government. If um you
know, if a German guy is hiding in
Indonesia. The Indonesians aren't
looking to you know, and but then you
have to have the treaty in place. We
just didn't have a treaty with Indonesia
at the time.
Um
Shoot, there was a guy named Scott
Pritcher and I forget his girlfriend's
name was like Nova or something. They
were robbing banks and they went to
South Africa and at that time the US
didn't have a treaty with South Africa.
And
I watched a documentary on it and I
actually knew a guy that had been locked
up with Preacher cuz of course he ended
up in federal prison. And he
he
the FBI went to South Africa
hung out where they it turns out that
she was working Nova was working at a
bar as a waitress.
He's day trading at their little condo.
Some guy
one day was like went into like the the
post office and it just come back from
South Africa was like that was my
waitress.
Went onto the website and saw pictures
of her went to the FBI and said this is
the waitress. Look, here's the website
for the bar I used to I hung out with
when I was there for two weeks. That's
her. So they sent two FBI agents. They
watched her for three or four days.
Somehow or another they got her prints.
They made sure it was her.
And
um they followed her back to the condo
and then they
they said they contacted the local law
enforcement. They said no we don't have
they didn't at that time they didn't
have an agree extradition.
And they just told them we're in this
area
one of two of our citizens bank robbers
convicted bank robbers are here.
We're going to grab them and we're
taking them to the airport. Could you
please notify anyone in the area you
know and and they said grab them. And
they grabbed them and took them to the
airport put them on a plane and flew
them back. Cuz you know they were like
they So that's why sometimes the
cooperation with South Africans goes
above and beyond.
Right. We've really kind of generated
good relations with them law enforcement
to law enforcement and you know we're
anytime they want the FBI to come out
and do training on interview
interrogation for you know like forensic
science stuff they the FBI hops on a
plane to do that. So if you're trying to
hide out in South Africa that's probably
the bad country to do it.
Yeah, I was just like
out in Somalia instead. We're not going
to get as much cooperation there.
Um
Oh man, I know a guy had a had a Somali
story that's out of this world. But um
Uh I was going to say um
Yeah, like South Africa is like talking
about like telling Putin not to show up
for the
Yeah.
this
whatever it was, conference or something
like don't show up, we're supposed to
arrest you, we're going to have to
arrest you. Now they're asking
permission like from the, you know,
whatever the international court, like
can we not arrest him? Like
Yeah.
Which is amazing cuz you would think
that they would just say, "Look, we're
just not going to arrest." Like if they
didn't, you know, we don't want to be
involved in this, we don't want to get
into a war with
with um Russia. Or that Putin would say,
"Okay, I'm not going to go if you guys
are going to
But yeah, that that's becoming a whole
So they're they're very much a a law and
order,
you know, state, I guess, or country. So
I'm going to yeah.
You have another Kauai story.
Yeah, this
What's up with that?
All right, this guy was James Lull. He
was the Bernie Madoff of Kauai is what
the local media tagged him at.
Nice.
And uh he's a mortgage guy.
Mhm.
And so he
Come back.
Right. And so he was basically offering
um he was offering people investments in
in bridge loans. Basically saying that
for people who needed a high interest
loan for 90 days to get them through the
closing to when they their real mortgage
closes.
Um he was offering and so that was the
that was the product that he was telling
people, but he was taking third-party
investors to allegedly fund those bridge
loans. But promising them again
astronomical rates of return with low
risk. And that's always the red flag,
isn't it, Matt? The idea that you're
going to be able to make an investment
and get super high returns coupled with
low risk. There's just no such thing in
the real world, right?
Cuz you you know, the the more risky,
the higher the return, you know what I'm
saying? The lower risk, then the lower
return. So to think, "Oh, I'm going to
have low risk and high return." Well,
then it's a fraud.
Exactly. You could go to Las Vegas and
bet red or black on the roulette table
and double your money. But the risk of
you losing all that money is is 50% or
you know, a little more than 50%. But
anyway, but people don't get that and
they certainly didn't get that in
Kawaii. And so 50 people invest money
with him and he brings in $30
Man, that's a lot of money.
Right. And so Americans
making the bridge loans?
No, well there was I mean there was some
bridge loans happening but not enough to
sustain this. And so he's paying people
back again with their with other
people's money. It was pretty much it
just became a Ponzi scheme after a
while.
The but with as with all Ponzi schemes,
he's taking a sizable portion of the
money for himself.
And he had two weird collections that we
ended up seizing and that he was
spending a fortune on. I didn't know
that either of these two things were
were were collector things. One, he
collected meteorites. Have you ever
heard of this?
Meteorites that fall from space, you
know, these rocks are collector's items.
People want these things from outer
space and there's a whole secondary
market where people are buying and
selling meteorites. And he was spending
thousands or tens of thousands of
dollars on meteorites. He had a weird
collection.
I only know that because I've read a
couple articles about this kid that was
collecting them because I guess they
have like
plutonium or so they have something like
uranium or something or they're they're
they're radioactive and he was building
like a a reactor in his in his garage.
It was a real thing like a genius kid.
And the other one was there was a a
meteor that was supposed to be worth x
amount of dollars and it was a part of a
a huge fraud. But yeah, that's the only
reason I know about it. I wouldn't even
think you could find a meteor but these
guys go around with metal detectors in
like the desert and they'll find them.
Yeah, and but evidently there's this
whole secondary
collector's market. I mean maybe if you
go on eBay you can type in meteorites
and buy a meteorite. This guy had a
massive collection of meteorites that
the government ended up seizing. I'm not
sure what they the government did with
the meteorites. He also had a weird
collection of pool cues, you know,
billiard cues.
I know that's a thing too.
Yeah, like diamond encrusted ones and
like like some of these pool cues were
so expensive. I had no idea that was a
thing, right? I suck at pool but when I
play pool I'm generally just grabbing
one of the house cues and using it and
it's all like twisted and curled and
covered in like blue chalk, but he had
these beautiful pristine pool cues that
he was collecting.
I was I was going to say, what's the um
the Is it the Color of Money with uh Tom
Cruise or something like that? It's uh
he had a a I want to say it was a
Balabushka. I think he said I think it
was called a Balaboot like, is that a
Balabushka or whatever? He was like, "Oh
my god, this is worth like $10,000 or
something."
Yeah. Yeah. So, there's these
subcultures out there that have
collectors items that I was thoroughly
unfamiliar with, but that's how he was
spending his money. So, he um again
pleads out pretty easily. Like they you
know, there was no like fight among him.
He you know, he the FBI gets the case.
It was not my original case to
investigate, but um but it became my
case when someone transferred out and I
transferred in.
And so, he pleads guilty and goes to
Washington state somewhere near Topeka
to um
Well, can I ask how it fell apart?
It It falls apart because all Ponzi
schemes fall apart because you can't
bring in enough money to sustain the
payments to all the previous people, and
you're actually not doing any
income-producing activity to get people
paid back. There were you know, there
were if there were any bridge loans,
there were hardly any bridge loans. And
so, like all pyramid schemes, it
collapses under its own weight, and then
the victims start calling the FBI
saying, "Help, help, I've been robbed."
Okay, so somebody contacted the FBI and
said, "Hey,
oh, this guy's not even returning
emails." I I I worked hundreds of Ponzi
schemes over the course of my career,
and the cases nearly always originate
from a victim complaining, right?
They're never complaining as they're
getting their their returns, but
once the guy stops paying and begins
offering them excuses about the the
stock market in the EU or some financial
collapse that they never heard about,
then they begin getting suspicious and
call the FBI.
Okay.
So, FBI gets the case, works up the
case, pretty simple as far as these
things go. He pleads guilty. Obviously,
Kauai is no longer a comfortable place
for him to be because of all the victims
there. He goes and he's chilling out in
like Topeka, Washington awaiting
sentencing.
So, sentencing day happens. I I show up
to the courtroom, you know, my little
suit. The AUSA's next to me at the
counsel table and
the gallery is filled with people who
had flown into Honolulu from Kauai, his
victims, looking to make their victim
impact statements to the judge,
basically asking for James Lull's head
on a spike.
But James isn't there?
The defense attorney's there.
The judge shows up.
Is defense attorney's
Exactly. James Lull is nowhere to be
found. And so, you know, we'll recess,
come back in a half hour, you know, he's
flying in from Washington state, etc.
Recess, come back in a half hour, no
James Lull. No one can get a hold of
this guy.
And so the judge issues a bench warrant
and basically looks at me and says,
"Agent Simon, this is yours now. You got
to find the guy." And uh
What what So he had played guilty. What
was the the the pre-sentence report
recommendation?
Um I don't know. Cindy, I I it was
pretty high. I mean, it had to be in
the, you know, probably 10 10-year
range. I'm thinking for a $30 million
loss.
I'm just wondering like why didn't he
want to show up? He must have looked at
the 10 years and said, "I just can't do
this." But to me, now you're getting
even more time cuz they're going to
catch you. So that So that 10 years,
that's that's going to go up.
Right. Right, exactly. And so And so I
immediately So the judge recesses, it's
my problem now. There's a bench warrant
for him. I immediately walk over to the
defense attorney and I say, "You got to
help me with this. I do not want your
guy to be shot
by some by some cop who sees him and and
sees he's an FBI fugitive." And I go,
"Because we're going to be blasting this
thing all over the media. This is going
to be a big story no matter what I do.
We need to figure this out together so
he could safely surrender and not get
hurt, okay?" And the defense attorney's
like, "I don't know what to tell you. I
just do not know where he is. I spoke to
him yesterday." And
I go, "Okay." And so I call US
Probation. I ask for the points of
contact from his
probation cuz he's you know, they're
they're supposed to be keeping an eye on
him.
Right. I knew he had family here and
there. I knew he had some friends here
and there.
I'm at my desk like working the phones,
sending leads uh for FBI agents all
around America to basically fan out and
catch this guy. The news is putting
together the TV news are putting
together their stories for the and
p.m. broadcast. And then my phone
rings. It's a military police officer at
some military base near Tacoma,
Washington. And he said that that
morning at a.m. someone had driven
an SUV off a cliff.
And and it fell um on a public road and
it fell down into land that was
technically the military's land in this
valley.
And they went down there and they
extract and they, you know, got into the
vehicle. There's a dead guy in the car
and he's got James Lull's identification
on him. And all these court documents on
the passenger seat indicating a federal
case involving James Lull.
And uh I was like, all right. And so I
basically call everybody call off the
dogs.
I thought, you know what? We got to make
sure it's him.
Right.
And so I sent some new agent from uh
Seattle to go down to Tacoma to go to
the morgue to roll his fingerprints. And
it was James Lull.
Oh, okay.
He decided to kill himself the day
before his sentencing rather than
actually face the music.
I I don't, you know, I I I kind of get
that.
You know, because
people are so concerned about prison.
Yeah.
But
do you think that's a fair concern for a
white-collar guy?
No.
Yeah.
No, not for a white-collar guy. So look,
if you're a white-collar guy and they
send you to a pen, you're a victim. Like
I'm not prepared to go to a pen. You
can't send me to a pen. Like I'm not
going to do well. You know, I've talked
to guys that have been in pens and about
90% of them say, you you'd actually be
okay. You know what I'm saying? As long
as you, you know, you you might get
pushed around. You might have a couple
guys try and extort you. Um you might
even have to pay extortion money.
Now to be clear, I want to make sure are
you what pen do you mean? State
penitentiary or do you mean like a
maximum security federal?
Like a federal penitentiary. It's it's
rough there, huh?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, in state, it's even
worse.
Yeah.
But
but but almost never, unless you were to
go to trial and have violence or weapon
of some kind in your case, are you is a
white-collar guy going to end up in a in
a pen. So, he was a nonviolent person
nonviolent.
Yeah, no no criminal record. He's going
to go to First of all, it depends on
what
what region they're in, right? Uh or
district. What district they're in
because
like
here in the like the 11th circuit
Mhm.
almost everybody
if it's Let's say you come in with camp
points.
Okay.
So, your security level's like under
super low
under yeah, five or 10.
Yeah.
And you're supposed to go to a camp.
They still don't send you to a camp.
They send you to uh to a low.
And then 6 months later, once you
haven't been a problem and they've
checked you out, they're like, "Yeah,
this guy's not a problem." They send you
to a camp. Or maybe you go to a low
and you're already you got a couple
shots you're making
Tell me what the difference is in
lifestyle between the minimum security
prison that you're kind of being
assessed at and the work camp itself.
Um a I mean, a low is it's open bay
which means basically it's bunk it's
you've got like you know, the the guys
in there call them cells. Like they're
really like cubicles.
Mhm.
And you'll have maybe two or three beds
in each cubicle. There's no door. You've
got a little locker.
And it's basically mostly nonviolent
guys. I mean, violence happens
Congressman
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
bankers
low-level drug dealers or
Yeah.
even bank robbers who maybe didn't use a
gun or they've worked their way down
from a medium. Cuz in a medium a medium
is exactly what you think a prison is.
You know, it's two tiers. The doors
slam. They can feed you through the slot
in the door.
Yeah.
You got a toilet and sink. They can lock
you up in there and you'll you they can
keep you there for 6 months to a year.
And you you don't have to leave.
Right.
Unless you need a medical attention, you
can live in this little cell. You've got
a bathroom a toilet a sink water
you know, um as long as they're feeding
you, you can stay there permanently.
Yeah.
So, but it's very much what people see
in a prison. So,
you know, and and all of them have wreck
yards where they'll let you out and go
to the wreck yard, that sort of thing.
And then of course pens, pens are like a
medium only much more violent, much more
violent criminals, much more longer
sentences, there's more gang activity.
So, if this guy goes to a medium to a
low,
it's a bunch of guys that are very much
like him.
Yeah.
Even if they're drug addicts, they're
like him. Like like maybe they don't
have the education, but man, they don't
want any problems, you know? They either
work their way down from a a pen to a
medium to a low, and they just hey,
you know, I don't want any problems.
This is a nobody's trying to stab me. I
get to I get to read books, I get to
eat, I get to walk in the wreck yard,
cuz in a pen, they're locked down six or
eight months out of the year.
Wow.
So,
it's almost always open here. And then a
low of course, there's no fence, you're
almost on your own. You can you can mow
the yard,
practice your golf swing.
Exactly. Yeah, you got a lot of stuff
you can do. There's lots of stuff you
can do.
So, but for that guy, I don't know what
I know in California, if you're
if you have camp points, you go straight
to a camp. Most jurisdictions, if you
have camp points, they send you straight
to a camp.
This guy had no criminal history, and he
but Hawaii also doesn't have its own
federal prison. We just have like an
MCC.
Oh, that sucks.
Yeah, so but most people go East Coast
so West Coast a lot of at the time a lot
of people going to Nellis Air Force Base
which had a camp.
And and and you get to work like I mean,
it sounds like horrible like when you
to a guy who obviously is stealing money
and he thinks he he doesn't want to
work. Yeah, but look, once you get
locked up, your expectations of what
life has to offer lowers. So, after
three to six months
Mhm.
to to work a job is almost like a little
taste of freedom. So, I get to go to
work 30, 40 hours a week. I have a I
have purpose. I go there, I get to earn
a little bit of money. My family doesn't
have to send me so much money. Maybe I
can make $200 a month or 150 or
something. I can buy commissary.
I have someplace to go every day. I have
some friends. By that point you've got
friends. You're you get to read a good
book series, you know, in the middle of
the Twilight series or not that's a good
book series but I want to take that out.
Um, you know, so whatever you do Game of
Thrones, you know, you get in in
suddenly on the street that wouldn't be
enough entertainment but in prison
you'll be shocked how many times just
reading a good series of books. I was in
enthralled
to get back to my unit to get back to
the unit so I could lay down and just
read the book for the next hour. I can
even lights go off and I got an hour.
Like that was exciting. Now if you said
man you get to read this book for an
hour
Dumb question just cuz I'm a book nerd.
Had you been a reader before?
Never. No.
Since you've been out have you continued
reading recreationally for fun? Really?
Because it's so it's you know
first of all entertainment is so easy
and and two I work 60 hours a week.
Right.
really 60 to 70 hours a week. If you ask
my wife she'd tell you I work 80 hours a
week.
Yeah.
But I work 60 70 hours a week and I
initially when I got out most of what I
was doing was writing.
Yeah.
But now it's this. It's scheduling. It's
it's writing. It's I've got other things
to do but but during that period of time
you know, I was
you know, a ferocious reader and I loved
it.
Mhm.
So, you know, and I'm I don't read well,
you know, but in my head I read better
than I read out loud.
Yeah.
And I got better and better and better
at it and it was thrilling. And I I knew
there was an issue one time when I was
so irritated about I was reading this
book and I got I was so
into it. There were multiple times I had
to I was so angry at the chick that in
the book I had to close the book and
walk around my cell a few minutes like I
can't. Ooh, I I I will
This fictional woman?
Fictional woman and I was like I can't
believe she did that. I can't believe
he's putting up with this. And I was
like, oh, no, no, let me And this is a
She's a CIA agent, he's a military guy
like Do you remember what the book was?
Yeah, yeah, I do. It was Up Country by
Nelson DeMille. Yeah, he's great. Yeah,
and and and then I remember too, at some
point this This book's like 500 pages. I
remember
when it got close and there was only
maybe 50 pages left, I started feeling
sad because it was going to be over
soon.
What?
I mean, it was that good of a book.
It's the best endorsement of all.
Right. Like, I would have never on the
street. But But that guy, you know, to
take your life, you would have gone to
prison for 10 years, which sounds like
an eternity, but you would have met some
amazing people. You would have had
Listen, all my friendships now are all
based up guys I met from prison.
Mhm.
Um
you would have met some amazing people,
you would have hopefully gotten in in
touch with the the issues that you have
and said, "Hey, you know what?
I don't want to come back here."
Yeah.
And and I need to start living my life
in a different way or I will come back
here.
Right.
And uh, you know, hopefully he would
have gone through that and he probably
would have been there 6 months and
started saying, "You know what? This
isn't that bad and I'm going to be okay
and I'm going to get through this and
once I'm through it, I'll look back on
this time and say, 'Hey, I deserved
that. I needed that. I'm going to be a
different person.'"
I think Hollywood doesn't do people in
his position any favors by presenting
prison as just this gladiator factory,
right?
Shawkshank, The Animal Factory, like
Or every prison thing is
They got some soft guy walking into a
pen who somebody hands him a knife and
says, "You're going to need this."
What are you talking about? I I cheated
on my taxes. I did it for 3 years. I got
to be a shot caller now? Like, you know,
"We're going to need you to lead the
white boys." Me?
Is there somebody else?
Yeah, yeah. So, I think that I mean,
again, I never knew James because he
wasn't I didn't do the original
investigation. I just sort of owned it
while he would just kind of shepherd it
through the criminal justice system
and, you know, the my 20-minute fugitive
investigation. And uh, but but I I had
no ill will toward him and uh and I wish
he had made different choices in his
life for the sake of his family and his
own future, but I guess that idea was
just too horrible for him to contemplate
and he drove off a cliff.
American Greed did an episode on that
Okay.
on that case. It was my first episode of
American Greed and then American Greed
began coming back doing a annual episode
with me and I thought, "Man, I am really
hot shit." And then I thought, "Well,
wait. The production company's in
Chicago. These guys get to fly to Hawaii
in the winter to film an episode with me
every year." And so maybe it's not me.
Maybe
it's maybe it's Hawaii. Yeah.
Some incentive.
Yeah.
Um
I was going to say I So when I was
locked up, I probably had
one
two three I probably had four FBI agents
come and see me, right? One was a woman.
Uh she was super cool. They actually
Seeking assistance on related
investigations?
Yeah, well, for what yes. Well,
yes and no. Some of them were unrelated.
Some were related.
Mhm.
Where they had an One was like a
politician that they were actually
investigating for fraud, but they also
knew that I had bribed him.
Okay.
They'd never charged him in my case, but
they wanted to charge him.
Mhm.
Uh but what what's so funny about that
was that every time and the guys would
show up and you know
no you know no offense to FBI agents,
but you know
this is
very typical. You know
uh
good looking, 5'10", in good shape. You
know what I'm saying? Like they all You
guys all look the same.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Central casting, right?
Yeah, exactly. Same haircut.
Um you know, just different age groups.
Like And so they but they all said the
same thing which I always thought was
weird. They all said they go, "So um And
this was funny. The first time this hap-
I was in the medium.
Mhm.
So they were you know, so it they
realized when they're coming in like
this is a this is a prison.
Yeah. Kachunk. That that sound. Yeah.
And they sat down and one of the first
questions they were like, "So um
what's it like in here?"
Yeah.
And all of them said all of them asked
and I was like
You know, and I always thought that was
weird. I was like, "Well, wouldn't you
know?" But then I thought about it. I
was like, "Why would they know?"
No, we were hope the FBI agents,
including myself, were hopelessly naive
about what prison life is like. Because
after sentencing, we're kind of done.
Yeah.
And you know, the guy goes away, you
know, we have to fill out the form about
how many months they're going away for,
but it's not like they send us Christmas
cards. It's not like we go visit and
talk old times. You know, I've been in
dozens of prisons, and I was probably
that guy saying, like, "What's it like
in here?" Cuz you know, most of the
FBI's conception of what prison life is
like, unless you're working prison
crimes, is from Hollywood. So, we're
working with those same kind of
stereotypes, and being able to sit down
and talk to a a prisoner inside the
prison who's kind of nice and cool and
conversant, um you're able to kind of
ask the questions that you've always
wondered.
Yeah. Um yeah, that is yeah. Definitely
they they all had that that exact same
uh experience or frame of mind or
whatever because they all said the exact
same. They were always all the same,
like, I have no idea. And I was like,
"Well, you know, you're like the By the
second guy, I was like, "This second guy
that asked me that." And he was like,
"Well, I have no idea. Like, once you
guys are sentenced, like, I don't know
what happens." And I'm like, and they're
like, "And honestly, like,
you're not a gang member, and you're in
a prison that's filled with gang
members." And I was like, "Well, yeah,
but I
I teach the real estate class, and I
teach GED, and I'm a I always used to
say, you know, I'm a I'm like being a a
a non-enemy combatant in a war zone."
They just
Yeah.
just trying to get your blood on my you
know, any blood on me, and stay mind my
own business, and go about
legally add value to the lives of the
other prisoners, you're not going to be
a target.
Right. And I I also I'm the guy that
they would come to. I was basically like
Google. They'd come to me and say, "Cox,
Cox, uh I got a question for you. How
many how many states are there?" Or
they'd say, "Is Puerto Rico a state?"
And I'd go, "Puerto Rico's not a state.
It's a territory." "What's the
difference?" Or, you know, we'd have
those kind
of fruit isn't in an apple pie?
Exactly. So, they would ask question or
they're legal work, you know, "Hey, I
got this about 2 weeks ago. I don't know
what it says." And you know, legal work,
if you don't know legalese, even if you
do, it's it's still
you know, difficult. These guys are
reading urban novels. And so, you know,
I'm looking at him and well, sounds to
me like your buddy got resentenced and
they knocked 3 years off his sentence
and they have to notify you because you
have the same charges. So, I'm pretty
sure
you have to get the sent that too, but
you have to apply for it. So, they're
like to just like that the guy's like,
"What? I could get time off?" I'm like,
"Well, yeah, let me ask somebody." I go
ask somebody who does legal work, come
back and say, "Yeah,
pay this guy $50 in commissary, he'll
file the paperwork. They
the exact same charges as your
co-defendant, they have to reduce it."
Like he won something in court.
Yeah.
This guy's ready to just do his 12 years
and it's Now, he just got 3 years
knocked off. So, so yeah, I definitely
had value. Um
Uh but yeah, I always thought to myself,
like with white-collar guys, they when
when someone's like, "Oh, I don't want
to talk to you. I don't want to" I
always felt like
I know part of their apprehension is how
much time they're going to get and and
do I have to go to prison and I'll never
survive prison. That's the first thing
they think.
Mhm.
But if they actually And there were guys
out there. There's guys like I I have a
buddy named uh
He took the art app program in federal
prison. They everybody calls him art app
Dan.
Um it it His name's Dan Wise. Uh so,
there's Dan Wise and there's a a few
guys that that do this. I don't know the
other guys. But, you know, they do
prison consulting. That's what they call
it. And and then they
I think Walt Pavlov does that.
Walt, thank you. Exactly. Walt's
perfect. So, the thing is like it's so
worth it to have that phone call with
one of those guys cuz to put your mind
at ease, right?
would alleviate
Or even for the FBI for an FBI, if you
talked to somebody and the guy's like,
you know, "No, no, no." So, well, let me
hold on. And you had somebody else come
in or even if you showed him a video of
some guy saying, "Look, this is what my
case was. This is what I was scared of.
This is what happened." I'm going to
tell you exactly what it really is like.
Then I think and you came back 5 minutes
later, I think that they would probably
be like,
"Well, now I'm not so concerned about
going to prison. It's It's really
especially a camp or a low is really
just like a shitty
uh a shitty summer camp with guards.
Yeah.
You know, you get to work you get to
walk the yard, you get to There's so
much stuff to do. Listen, you know who
has the biggest budget in prison?
The rec center.
Really?
Oh.
There are tennis courts. Like the the
basketball courts are also tennis
courts. You have a net you can spread
and put it in there and these guys play
tennis. They have tennis rackets. You
can learn to play the guitar. You can
learn to play They have tons of
instruments. They have bands. I've heard
some amazing bands.
Can you lift weights? Is it Are there
Are there weight racks? Cuz that's
that's always a controversy. I That's
always the scene in the prison, right?
Is there the guys bench pressing, you
know, 350 and all that.
Not in federal prison because these guys
are are they'll be monsters. You know,
they if you could work out if your
full-time job was working out 60 hours a
week, you'd be a monster.
Yeah.
Um
The The corrections officers aren't
looking for that.
Yeah, they're not looking They're not
looking for that. Not that anybody puts
up a a fight, but if they did, it would
be it would be bad cuz some of these
guys are just genetic freaks.
But you can do body weight exercises,
right? There's nothing stopping you from
doing all the push-ups and sit-ups that
you want.
They'll still Listen, there are guys
that have special bags. They'll make
bags with handles on them
Mhm.
and then they'll hide them in the dirt
and then they fill them up with with
sand. So they know
Yeah, like a GoRuck sandbag.
They know exactly what it is. They're
like, "Okay, that's a 25, that's a 35,
that's a 15." You're like
Do your curls, do your shoulder presses,
do your bur- rows.
Guys will sit on each other's shoulders.
They'll do They'll do um squats. They'll
do pull-ups. They'll do It's It's
They're They're very imaginative.
Yeah.
So, yeah, there's guys that are Listen,
I knew there was an 80-year-old black
guy that would jump up on the
uh pull-up bar and he would knock out 30
or 40
full pull-ups behind the head. Boom!
Boom! And I'm He's 80. He's 80. There It
like a 60-year-old guy that I'm telling
you he would run a half a marathon
almost every day. Prison probably saved
their lives.
Yes. Oh, and a lot of guys
Well, and not just
I mean, from a from a health and fitness
perspective, you know.
Health and fitness for sure, but then
there are other people that you'll
you'll meet. You know, if the guy's
honest, you know, and a lot of these
guys aren't. They they never get on
They'll never get honest with
themselves. But, there's so many people
that I would meet that were drug acts
most of their lives, and this was the
first time they were clean for 5 years,
and they would say, "Bro, I'd be dead
right now."
Yeah. Like,
my wife is that is that's exactly She
says, "Oh, prison saved my life." She's
one, would have never got clean. She's
like, "And two,
I would have never gone to RDAP."
She's like, "RDAP changed every her
perspective of of drugs and and how her
life could be led." She She could
So, it's an actual successful program
that changes people's lives.
Listen, I I've said this numerous time.
I don't think you should be released
from prison till you pass RDAP, whether
you are on drugs or not, because this
time
viewers familiar with what RDAP is?
Um Yeah, I think it's it's a I've talked
about it a lot, but not necessarily like
it's a residential drug abuse program
where they actually take you and you go
into a special unit, and it's a 9-month
extremely invasive uh
Kind of like AA meetings and NA meetings
every day type of thing?
All the time.
Okay. So, it's group
Yeah, you have groups, you have
different types of groups, you have
activities, you have
have a sponsor.
Yeah, you have a a big brother. Um
Uh you and and also you're you're
constantly there you're assigned drug
treatment specialist, so you're in a
group
that's got a specific multiple drug
treatment specialist, and there's a
psychiatrist that has like a PhD that
runs each program. Everyone's run by a
psychiatrist
or psychologist. I'm not sure which one
they are, but they all have like PhDs,
and
and it's so funny, too, because
like
They're just smart. They've seen a
thousand guys like you. They've seen a
thousand like you would walk in I walked
in and sat down and I'm telling you this
this chick stripped me down completely
and knew every single within a three or
four minutes she's like
She says, "Were one of your parents an
alcoholic?"
And I was like
you know, it's like
and she's like, "Well, cuz you you have
a certain personality type and typically
that happens from kids that are grow up
in an alcoholic family. I'm assuming you
have She's like I
I think she said She said, "I actually I
mean I know you have multiple siblings.
I've read your your PSI, but it doesn't
specifically talk about which one of
your your parents is an alcoholic. She
says, "I'm assuming it's alcohol." She
says, "Or maybe drugs." And I was just
like Jesus Oh, and then once I said that
then it was a whole So I she they
categorize you so quickly you realize
like
wow, like
She had done her 10,000 hours and knew
this stuff intuitively, right?
a thousand me.
Yeah.
Thousand. Listen, she was so good and
every almost every time I walked into
her office I walked out in tears. Every
time.
And it was so bad I had started having a
I'm going to say a Pavlovian response
when I would hear my name
Cox, please come to the doctor's office.
I would start welling up as I walked
there. I thought I thought this is
You knew it was going to get deep.
This is horrible. This is horrible. Like
she was that amazing. And I think that
people it changed people's life. Now, I
think some people re-enter and maybe it
doesn't stick. But it does have a good
the recidivism rate for people that go
into R-DAP
and don't come back is better than
people that don't go into R-DAP. And it
really has nothing to do with drugs cuz
I don't have a drug problem. Right. I
went in because I wanted to stay at the
at the complex.
So they put a hold on you. So I stayed I
checked in
went through the the drug treatment
program without a drug addiction?
Well, no no, I Of course when I did my
PSI I said I had a drug addiction. But
I've actually never done any drugs. I've
actually never drank alcohol. Never
drink alcohol or smoke.
I'm aghast by this. So uh
Oh, it's total manipulation. So when I
was in in where I was in
being held by the US Marshals for like a
year before I was sentenced, just before
the
the PSI guy, the probation officer shows
up to do your pre-sentence report, which
is a report that's done by a probation
officer to recommend
to give a recommendation to the judge on
what your sentence is.
They basically recreate the FBI's
investigation themselves to go to
explain to the judge all the these
extenuating circumstances and the
victim's impact and all that.
Right, right, exactly. Like what
enhancements should apply, that sort of
thing. So
They're doing the math for the judge on
the sentencing guidelines calculations.
Yes, but they come and they talk to you
first, you know, they they ask you
questions.
So
um by the time I knew it was coming,
other inmates had said, "Okay, well,
Cox, your PSI the guy for the PI PSI guy
is what they were calling him. He's
going to show up."
Do you have a drug problem? And I was
like, "No, why?" And I said, "Is my And
they were like, "Well, you need to find
one." I go, "What do you mean?" They
said, "Because if you say you have a a
drug program a drug problem and the PSI
guy recommends to the judge that you get
the drug program, you'll get the drug
program." And I go, "Well, I don't have
a drug I don't know anything about
drugs." They were like, "Okay, well"
And I remember the guy goes,
"You're an opiate guy. I think you're an
opiate guy." And cuz I was like, "Oh, I
I've never drank, I've never smoked."
And so he I got a little 2-hour um
lesson on opiates on what it was like,
not just how much they cost, the names
of them, how I got started
goal here is for you to get a better
prison designation into a residential
drug treatment program, which is going
to be easier time?
No, you get a year off if you complete
the program.
I see.
So what they're saying is, "Look, if you
get 10 years and you get RDAP, that's a
year off."
Okay.
And you get more halfway house.
Okay.
So you get more halfway house. So it's
it's and you get to stay in the RDAP
unit. The R-DAP unit is nice.
Yeah.
Like it's quiet. It's quiet, it's clean,
everybody's polite, nobody's getting
into fights.
Right. They're They're dealing with
their personal demons. They're not
looking to hassle anyone else.
And they're trying to get a year off.
What a huge benefit. Like I have to be
on my best behavior because I want to
get a year off. So if that guy mouths
off to me, it's like, "You got that,
bro."
We have created a crazy incentive
structure for people like you to game
the system.
Right. So Well, see, I never got the
year off, though.
Oh.
Because by the time I I had my sentence
reduced twice. By the time I got my
sentence my second reduction,
I had
whatever, a year to go, let's say. A
year and change.
And had I gotten through the 9 months,
I would have gotten a year off. I would
have gone I would have just I wouldn't
have had enough time to get halfway
house. I would have gotten like a month
or two halfway house.
And with R-DAP, you have to have 4
months halfway house. So they wouldn't
have given me the year off, they'd have
given me they'd have reduced it by 4
months. I would have gotten like 8
months off.
Yeah.
So So And I really only wanted to go in
to
to
um
stay at the prison cuz my mother was an
hour away.
Mhm.
And they were trying to move me to a
camp. And I was like, I don't want to go
to camp. I want to stay here. My mom
lives down the street. Closest camp, if
I go to it at all, is a 4 and 1/2 mi
That's Miami. It's 4 hours. She'll never
make it. She's in a wheelchair.
Right.
And
so
So I entered the drug program, which I
had the judge recommended it.
I entered the drug program, stayed there
for
7 months, went through all the phases,
and then as soon as I was close to
getting to
So they put a hold on you so they can't
move me. I'm in the drug program.
this, man. During this window of time as
you're going through this drug
counseling, are they asking you like,
"Tell me about the euphoria you felt
when you used heroin?"
that's what I'm saying. It's nothing
about drugs. There's almost nothing
about drugs. It's all about criminal
thinking. It's really Look, to get it
past Congress, you got to call it
something, right? You can't call it um
So, it's like a therapy.
Yeah, you can't call it behavior
modification program. They call it a
drug program. But, you get in there
We barely talked about drugs at
But, you're not doing that that NA thing
where you're telling the story about how
you hit bottom with your drug use.
They My guys might mention that maybe
periodically like when I was on drugs,
but usually they do it as a crutch.
Mhm.
The truth is you're just a criminal. You
have a criminal issue You have criminal
issues. You're going You're using drugs
as a crutch, but the truth is you have a
You have other issues.
Mhm.
And so, they're really focusing on that
and and how to think
more rationally.
Okay.
Because most criminals
have a
a gut reaction they go with, and they
don't think through if I jump on this
guy, am I going to get thrown in the
shoe? Am I going to be able to see my
family? Is that going to add time to my
sentence? Is And does he deserve that?
What he's really saying is this, and you
kind of
So, this has true rehabilitative value
separate it apart from this alleged drug
addiction.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Everyone should have to do this, then.
That's what I'm saying. You everybody
should get But, you'd have to give
everybody an incentive cuz these guys
don't want to change. You don't think
you want to change. Why would I want to
change?
Mhm.
I love me.
Yeah, because psychotherapies work. You
got to do the work.
And then you go in there and you see
6-ft tall um guys who have been uh in a
gang in a gang for 15 years, guys who've
been in and out of state prison their
whole life crying like small children
Mhm.
and just sobbing about their what their
mother said to them when they were 12
years old or what their what their
father or mother did to one another or
did to them, you know, being sold uh
for, you know, drugs by their parents or
whatever the case nightmare scenarios.
And so,
you know,
it helps you And a lot of guys would be
like, "Oh, I'm I faked my way through
that program." And you're just cuz I
would You see the guys outside when they
pass.
Mhm.
See them outside on the compound and
you'd hear him talking to their buddies,
"Man, I faked my way through that." And
I'm sitting there thinking, "Bro, you
didn't fake that crying session. That's
for damn sure." Like, you even if you
said I faked my way through it, it was
all The it was. Like, you
you learned something. I learned a lot
about me and and just people in general.
So,
I went through it for like 7 months and
then I dropped out. And then 3 months
later my counselor comes to me and says,
"Cox, we're we're moving you to I'm
going to move you to camp." And I went,
"Whoa, what are you talking about?" I
said, "I'm I'm going to halfway house.
I'm you're supposed to be putting me in
for halfway house. I said I got I got
less than a year to go." And he was like
this and he's like um he said, "Yeah, I
know, but they're really trying to get
us to get people to a camp and you
shouldn't be here." And I went, "No, I
said, "Listen, bro." I said um "You
can't do that." I said
"Does the camp have a a drug program?"
They're like, "Well, I mean, I don't
know, but" I said, "Well, I I you can't
do it." I said, "I'm already I'm
supposed to go back to ARDAP next week."
He's like, "What are you talking about?"
I said, "Yeah, I already put the
paperwork in. They're they're filling it
out." Dr. Smith said she's put me into
ARDAP again. I said, "Bro, I can't
leave. I I got problems."
Listen, it was I only I really sold it.
I sold it to such an extent I almost
started laughing cuz it was so
overboard. Um and then
I got the shakes, doc.
Yeah, I was like like I can't go out
like this. I mean, I can't I said I
can't behave like this on the street.
I'll I'll I'll be right back in here. I
I I've got an issue I got issues. And he
looked I said, "I didn't realize it till
I got out of ARDAP, but I I just You
know what I'm saying? I I I have
problems and I I got to go back." And
and he I said, "I'm already putting
paperwork." He's like, "Oh, I didn't
know that. I mean, you should have told
me that. I mean,
yeah, definitely. No, no, okay. I'll
hold off. I'll hold off. We'll see what
Dr. Smith when you're going to go in.
It's fine. I'll hold off." Listen,
immediately on the computer. Dr. Smith,
I I reevaluated We thought about the
Within 2 weeks I was back in there.
Like like backdating the
I went through that. Listen, they
changed my date. Like, I went I went all
the way through they changed my date and
then as soon as my date changed that the
hold was on there. I immediately said,
I dropped out again. Dr. Smith was just
like
She's like, "Cox, you're almost done.
What are you doing?" And I told her
I cuz the second time I had almost I was
almost going to get not even going to
get I was going to get like 2 months off
my sentence.
Cuz 2 months plus the 4 months and I
said, "Doctor, I said, listen, let's
face it. Let's be honest." I said, "I'm
only getting 2 months off." She said,
"Yeah, but you're going to complete the
program." I said, "Right." I said,
"Yeah, but let's face it." I said,
"There's a good chance I'm coming back
here. I said, I'll be at 50-something
years old. I said, I'm going to need
that year
that whole year at that time." She said,
"Don't Cox, don't say that. You're not
com- What are you doing?" And I was
like, "I swear to God, I said, I'm just
joking. Like come on, let me out. I got
to go."
So, I got out and I ended up getting
like 7 months halfway house. I left
within a few months. I was gone.
But Yeah, it's it's an amazing that's an
amazing program.
And so I I I think maybe the the moral
to this story is that if someone does
find themselves in an in a bad situation
that that especially in federal prison
especially for a white-collar crime,
it's not worth offing yourself because
every agent I know who works
white-collar crime has one or more
stories of defendants who decided to
commit suicide rather than do the time
and it's just a poor
risk-reward type thing.
Yeah, I I've like I said, I've always
thought it's like if
Or or even to talk to the agents and
say, "Look, explain to these guys,
you're probably going to go like you
can't guarantee it, but you're probably
going to go to a camp or a low and I'm
telling you
It is not a bad it's not bad. It's not a
horrible place.
You don't want to be there. Of course,
you don't want to be away from your
family. The point is you will survive
that that sentence easily survive that
sentence. And if you're smart, you can
you can maybe re- re-evaluate yourself
and maybe even set yourself up for a
second act.
Yeah, exactly.
Like killing yourself is just
just uh it is just it's just not worth
it. Especially when you get there, you
realize 2 3 week 2 3 months in, you're
like,
"I was thinking about killing myself.
Like what the Like this is fine.
I'm I'll I'll be out of here in 2 years.
This is nothing.
Yeah. So, but I but I understand that
too cuz I was terrified. That's really a
good reason why I took off on the run. I
was I was scared. I'd seen Shawshank
Redemption and Animal Factory. I'd seen
these shows that I was just like, oh
man, I can't I can't I can't do that.
Right.
I'll never survive that.
Mhm.
What a joke. Should have stayed in
Tampa.
Yeah.
Do you have anything Have you ever
worked undercover in the white-collar?
Yeah, quite a bit. Um so, a lot of
people don't understand this that very
few agents actually ever go undercover.
There's a giant screening process for
FBI agents where you apply to the go to
the undercover school. So, it's not
mandatory and it's certainly not for
everyone. And then they send you to this
like really really difficult undercover
school for a couple weeks. And um and
it's the hardest training I ever had. I
mean like you're going through a lot of
classroom stuff, a lot of behavioral
science stuff. People are failing out
all the time and going back and there's
no shame in that because
undercover work is not for everyone,
Right.
Well, why? I mean what what I don't
understand. Like what's so
Well, not everybody's a good liar.
Okay.
I mean we're hiring we're hiring FBI
agents for the exact opposite skill set,
right? We have honesty, you know, in
these honest people who don't tell lies
and are just filled with like integrity.
And then you have kind of the the more
like um
Need to be a scoundrel.
the more scoundrelly guys who are
applying to go to undercover school and
some of them are better than others. And
so, when you fail out
Do they want to go? Like like does every
like do most agents want to do that?
They're like, eh.
I mean it's it's a popular school.
There's there's more agents who apply
for it than there are seats at the
undercover school, but it's not um
but it's most agents just aren't
interested in going undercover. Most
agents really like who they are
Okay.
want to be someone else even for a small
window of time. And so, but I
It It was fun at times. At times it was
like, you know, it really terrifying.
And so, but so I got through undercover
school. It was a miserable school, but
you're but you walk away kind of
confident that um that that you you can
handle yourself. And so and also just
let's call it what it is.
Demographically, I'm not going to be Tom
the crack dealer. I'm going to be Tom
like the banker guy. Tom the Tom the
rich investor guy. And so that was the
role I really found myself falling into
is in the world of investment fraud,
which is kind of what I enjoyed the
most. There's really nothing better than
getting the sales pitch from the bad guy
to the victim. But we couldn't capture
that in a normal case because the
victims are hearing the sales pitch and
then they're making an investment and
then they're perfectly happy with that
investment. And then the investment
falls apart. The investment's a fraud.
And and then then they want to tell us
all about that. But what really matters
to me as the investigator is what were
the lies you were told before you
invested that separated you from your
money.
The investors always want to tell me the
story about how the lies they were told
and the excuses that were provided when
they weren't getting paid back. But
that's a secondary issue. The fraud
happens when fraud is theft by
deception, right? And so when they're
being lied to on the front end. And so
the the way I solved that problem
in my cases and other people's cases is
undercover work. What happens is before
the entire thing falls apart, you pose
in an undercover capacity as a wealthy
potential investor to record the sales
pitch being given to you by the con
artist.
Okay.
Makes sense?
Yeah.
And so
and so I'm not and so
let's talk about a specific case here in
Florida. Woman named Lori Nadimes. She
was offering an investment program in
standby letters of credit, medium-term
notes, and and bank guarantees. Anytime
someone tries to offer you an investment
in SBLCs,
European bank guarantees, or medium-term
notes, grab your wallet, grab your
purse, and run the other way because
those investments do not exist. It's not
like stocks and bonds. They're just
they're fictitious investment vehicles
that there's a subculture of people
mostly on the internet who believe these
things are real, believe there's a
secret trading program among the banks
of Europe where they're trading these
bank instruments to produce astronomical
rates of return. Where they
sovereign citizens?
Not necessarily. You're going to double
your money. Yeah, but it it's it's that
I think it tends to attract that type of
you know, iconoclastic thinking.
And so Lori was one of those and she was
doing quite well at that. She had a
giant mansion in Bradenton, Florida that
she was leasing, but it was the biggest
house I've ever seen in my life.
Right.
And and she had ripped off five people
for about 9.75 million dollars and
and and there's no investment vehicle
whatsoever for her to put this money
into. And so and she was claiming all
all this
Straight in her bank account? Just
paying her bills?
spending Yeah. And I mean I think she
was sending some money to bank accounts
and kind of investment
brokers involved in the same scheme in
Liechtenstein and stuff like that. She's
bouncing here between here. She really
kind of presented herself to her victims
as being a financial high roller and she
was living the lifestyle of a financial
high roller.
And so but the problem is imagine if we
didn't but none of us had we never had
the investment pitch to any of these
people recorded and you can imagine that
if we indicted her for this, what's her
defense going to be? Her defense is
going to be I never told these people
that they could double their money in 90
days. That's crazy. No one has ever
heard of investment where you can get 10
times your money in a year. And
the victims are lying because they made
a bad investment. They want their money
back. That's going to be the defense
argument. But if we can lock her in and
get her get her sales pitch recorded by
an undercover FBI agent or a cooperating
witness, then she has nowhere to go.
So so is she having them sign documents?
Um there's some documentation. I think
for the most
part don't lay that out. They don't lay
out the
they're going to make five times
The what's on paper is usually very
different than the sales pitch you're
getting and the documents are written in
such dense legalese that that even if
you knew a lot about this stuff you
they're hard to parse.
Right.
That's right. So, the idea was presented
that I would be Tom Peters, a very
wealthy but very stupid guy who just
inherited a lot of money from his dead
daddy.
Okay.
And so, that was the role I was playing
and and so I was introduced by a
cooperating witness who knew Lori and
was cooperating with the FBI um to get
himself out of some trouble.
And so, we um
So, he introduces me, said that like my
dad was his dad's doctor and we became
family friends and that Tom Peters, me,
was super loaded. And so,
I went undercover and and and got the
sales pitch from Lori again and again
and again. She's bringing business
partners on. She's promising me these
amazing returns.
The problem with that approach is that
you got to get past the likely defense
of her saying, "I thought that this
investment program was real. I was
dealing with people in Europe who were
telling me all these things." So, what
you need to do as the undercover is ask
them questions that they're going to
give you answers that are demonstrably
true or false.
Right.
And so, I said, So, my line to her was,
"Hey, listen, I like to I like a chef
who eats his own food. Have you invested
in these things yourself?" And she's
like, "Yeah." And I go, "Can you tell me
how the investment has performed for
you?" She said, "I'm a billionaire. I'm
I'm a billionaire several times over."
And I go, "I just want to make sure
we're abundantly clear because this is a
lot of my money and I want to make sure
it's okay that and I don't want to be
the first man on the moon here that you
have invested your own money in this
program and received actual cash
investment returns back." And she's
like, "Absolutely. I am a billionaire."
And um
And so, at that point we have robbed
from her the ability to bring up the
affirmative defense later that she
believed this investment program was
real because she's telling me something
that's just not true.
Right.
Right?
And so
so time marches on and she gets indicted
and
obviously I never make an investment,
right? At the
right that we're not taking your tax
dollars and giving it to the but some
people think we do. Some people think we
make these investments then we follow
the money through the through the
financial system. No, that's stupid. All
we want to do is get the sales pitch
recorded. We can follow the money from
the other victims and find out what
happened to them but we want to get the
sales pitch down because that's the key
to the fraud. That's the lie that
separates the victims from their money.
Right.
And so
So wait, can I ask a question real
Yeah, yeah, please. So
did she you're you're saying you had a
cooperating witness or sorry
someone who was cooperating
to get out of whatever he was involved
in was his cooperation was he connected
to her and he
He knew her and was involved in another
deal with her that had nothing to do
with this investment program.
got jammed up and he said, "Hey, I know
about a scam that's going on." So the
other question is did she realize
that she was being investigated? Like
the people that had lost the money were
they already complaining?
Uh they had some of them had complained
to the FBI and that's how that we also
knew about her from that and the
cooperating witness who told us about
it. So we
the FBI is getting information from both
ends but she does not she knows that her
investors want their money back and
she's getting pressure from them to get
their money back because they haven't
received any of these promised returns
and she's doing what a lot of these
investment defrauders do and say, "Why
don't we you you you're worth tens of
millions of dollars now from that
$100,000 investment you made? Why don't
we roll it over do it again?"
Right.
they're always offering to roll your
money over into like the next next
tranche of the investment for 90 days,
120, 180 days. And so
There's no gains. Like it's it's just
it's just a website that says you made
this much money.
no there's no version of this where
she's cutting any of them a check
because there's no investment and and
already pissed their money away on on
her extravagant lifestyle.
Right.
So,
yeah, so she ends up getting indicted
and arrested and then she gets her
discovery and sees that this Tom Peters
guy is in fact Tom Simon, you know, FBI
agent. And during the course of this
while it's awaiting trial, I retire.
Okay.
I go I and I retire, I become a private
investigator here in Florida. I kind of
go on with my life and then and I had a
client in Dubai and I was doing a lot of
work out there and I get a call while
I'm in Dubai from FBI agent in Tampa,
which is one investigating the the case
in Bradenton and they and they say,
"Hey,
that remember Lorraine Deema? She's
going to trial."
We need
That's a mistake.
We need you to come back in like 2
weeks. I was like, "I'm in the middle of
a client engagement here in Dubai. I was
making some amazing money in this gig on
this gig."
that's a long plane flight, too.
And they're like, "Well, and I was like,
I you really need me? There's no version
of me like zooming my in my testimony?"
They go, "No, we need you." And I was
like, "Oh, man." And so
and so I
at great expense to me, I have to fly I
have to cancel the client engagement,
fly back to Dubai. I said to him,
"What happens?" They go, "Do you If you
want, we could contact the embassy and
and they can enlist the UAE authorities
to subpoena you at your hotel room in
Dubai." I'm like, "We don't need to do
that." I go, "I was with you guys for 26
years. There's no I'm not being a hard
ass here. I just want to make sure this
trial is happening cuz trials get kicked
all the time." And and so I fly back
from Dubai all the way to Florida and
then like a couple days before
jury selection when I'm supposed to
testify, they call me and say that the
trial has been postponed. And the trial
got postponed like three more times and
and then eventually she just pled
guilty.
And she ended up getting sentenced to 9
years in prison.
9 years for 9.
9.75 million bucks, yeah. And so
and there's there'll be pop people in
the comment section say, "I knew 9
years." Right, right, right, right. But
uh
9 years is a lot of years when you're
like a 50-year-old lady. I mean, that's
like that that's prime time.
Yeah.
But, she could do the drug program,
the halfway house.
Sometime, or she might do four, five.
Exactly, exactly. What's so funny is
that the agency used to talk about what
like a cantankerous woman she was and
how she was just like mean and bitter
and angry to every person in the
government that she had any contact
with. But, when she was on the phone to
me as prospective investor in my
undercover capacity, she could not have
been nicer and more flirty and just and
and kind and sweet. And she was the kind
of person that I wanted to cut a check
to.
Right.
I was going to say, um
it it's funny how often like these guys
will get pissed off at the agents and
the US attorneys that like I've talked
to and they're like they're oh, you
know, they this and then they you know,
they're calling them names and they're
this and they're that. And it's like
you you you did steal $4 million, so,
right? Or you did, you know what I'm
saying? And they just
they don't want to they don't want to
talk about that. They don't want to
accept you know, that's like I said,
those are those people that are like
victims and they shouldn't be in jail. I
was like, you stole $4 million. Well,
you could have given me probation. No,
you stole $4 million, you got to go to
prison.
Mhm.
So, I can see I can see how she's, you
know, mean and vicious cuz I see tons of
people like that. But, then in the scam
capacity, she's super sweet.
amount of work I had to do on that case
after I retired, going through the
transcripts of my conversations with her
and like editing them, listening going
through the Microsoft Word document,
listening to the conversation where
there's just a lot of back and forth and
cross talk and and editing that
document. I probably spent nearly 40
hours unpaid editing my own undercover
recordings there when I was retired.
But, you know, I mean, that's that's the
deal. And so, time has marched on. I
haven't been an agent now for 3 years.
And so, I think all my cases have sort
of cycled through the system. So, I
don't think the FBI's going to be
calling me telling me to drop everything
and come to court anymore.
Um
shoot, it I mean, the Ponzi scheme
thing, it it Well, she she was she she
wasn't even a Ponzi scheme. She's just a
thief. She's not paying anybody back.
exactly. And so, this this myth of these
This was one of my kind of niches in the
FBI that I really liked because it was
so interesting. There was this story
that kind of floats around the con man
community internationally that after
World War II, the Marshall Plan came
into effect to rebuild Europe. And that
in the in the story is, and this is
complete nonsense, is that in order to
fund that, the top 50 or top 100 banks
in Europe created a bank guarantee and
medium-term note trading program would
trade these notes with each other in
such rapidity it would create profits
that was used to fund the rebuilding of
Europe. This is the story that they tell
each other, and they tell each other
like they read this in a history book.
And this secret program among the top 50
and top 100 banks in Europe still
exists. And that if you know the right
people, you can get in on it where you
can get 10 or 50 times your investment
money in a very short window of time.
And people fall for this all the time.
And they and and they take money from
investors. And so,
when I began working human intelligence
work and getting informants together, I
was basically finding people who were
marketing these things. Sometimes they
were true believers and they believed
these programs are real, and sometimes
they were just con artists. And I was
telling them that you're going to be in
a lot of trouble if you continue this,
but what I want is your Rolodex. I want
to know all the people that you're in
contact with in this world marketing
these platform trading programs, trading
standby letters of credit and
medium-term notes, and all these
fictitious
investment vehicles. And then then I
would basically farm out FBI agents to
take a look into these people and either
like deprogram them and tell them this
is a fraud, and if they continue with
this, they're going to be going getting
a lot of trouble. And or or to
investigate them, take a look into them,
run the suspicious activity reports
through FinCEN and see are they bringing
in just a ton of money from investors
for one of these programs. So, this this
we call them platform trading programs
was kind of my life's work at the FBI to
try to stamp these things out. I did a
very poor job of putting out the forest
fire, but I put a lot of people in
prison in these crimes.
Yeah, I was going to say it's it's hard
when it's so overwhelming and it you got
the internet spreading it just nobody's
going to stop it.
Yeah, but one thing we developed there
was an agent named John Coffin in Tampa
who was a brilliant agent and he came up
with a the coffin letter.
It was basically a letter to these
people that you sent certified mail
laying out that these things are
fraudulent and they don't exist and
they're fictitious and just sending it
to the bad guys and then you just put it
into a file that they received
notification that these things are
fraudulent. What that does is that that
steals from them the ability to say that
they were true believers down the road.
was real, yeah.
Right, their consciousness of guilt has
been established by the fact that they
received notification from the FBI that
these programs don't exist and so that
what did wonders for kind of making
cases because a lot of the people we
were busting for these things we would
search the files and see that 3 years
ago they received a coffin letter
telling them that these were fictitious
trading programs.
It the um
you know, like the uh um the sovereign
citizen guys that believe So, it's funny
because the guys that always make the
the money are the guys teaching you how
to be a sovereign citizen like they have
a course, they have seminars, they have
um those guys rake up the actual
sovereign citizen guys that put it into
place and stop paying taxes or sing
think that the government doesn't have
any
have any say so over them. They can be
their own citizen and your rules don't
apply. They always end up in prison.
The that's how I got to know the agent
who put you in prison, Agent Peacock.
She she and I partnered up to work a
couple sovereign citizen cases where
they
Did we talk about this before? You said
you knew her?
Oh, yeah.
She was Listen, listen.
She was super professional. She's great.
Very agent. Polite, very nice. No matter
what she thought of me she was just very
polite and nice and just like this is
how this works. This is how it's going.
Right. So we had a couple sovereign
citizen cases where they were producing
fake treasury checks. Right? They had
and then fake fake I basically IRS
returns and and then kind of depositing
those and then and basically selling
them to people like you know, I can get
you checks from the IRS and you know,
filled with all the sovereign citizen
nonsense and they and but creating fake
US Treasury documents as a US Treasury
crime and so the FBI and the US Treasury
Department me and Agent Peacock teamed
up to put some of these people in
prison. And the cool thing is that they
always defend themselves at the trial
which never goes well. If we're giving
criminals advice today on your show that
it always seems like a much better idea
than it is.
Yeah, I always
God I used to joke with this guy that he
said that the guys that he was going to
testify against were sovereign citizens.
He said oh yeah, they they first thing
they do is they fire their lawyer. They
they start talking about the fringe on
the flag and how this is a
a naval court or whatever a
maritime court or what and I was like
he's like you know, they'll they'll tell
them like that the judge will be like
hey stop talking. Stop talking and I was
like and I said you understand when you
go in there to testify they're going to
have like a one of those black belts
around it with a shock collar and then a
gag ball. I said they're going to be
going
the whole time and the every once in a
while the judge is going to hit him
and make him shut up and he was like no.
I said yeah.
It was I will say though that it's easy
to get a sovereign citizen to confess to
you because they he believes it. They
believe it. And so so you know, I'd be
like that I would sit there and listen
to them talking about how like it
depends on the number of syllables in
this in this in the US Constitution line
and and you know, I'm happy to hear and
listen to that. At the end of the day I
go okay well so because of all that
that's why you produce these checks from
the US Treasury Department. It's like
yes, I have permission because I decide
I named myself a US Treasury because I'm
a trustee and you know, it's just like
ba ba ba ba ba. Right. So, but I mean, I
don't care at that point what your
rationale is, right? You just told me
you broke the law.
All I care about is that you told me
that you produced US Treasury checks um
for whatever reason and began kind of
like selling those for pennies on the
dollar to uh to your people who then
tried to deposit them in the bank
accounts. And uh and so,
um
we'll we'll we'll handle it in court
whether that you have a legal rationale
for this, which is all just like
gobbledygook. It's like they're hearing
voices and their feelings. But,
but without the internet, same thing
with my little uh prime bank guarantee
program and uh the prop platform trading
program, these bad ideas have this
ability to spread virally among
dum-dums.
Mhm. What about you know, another one?
Well, one another thing that they always
say, this always kills me, is that "See
how your name is spelled in all
capitals? That's because you know,
that's Oh, stop. All right, you know.
But, I was going to say the other one
that spreads everywhere is the um
CPNs. You know, CPNs.
The fake social security number? Yes.
Yes. I got a case on right now I'm
working on right now.
Oh, really? Cuz that they will they will
do the whole um
you know, "Oh, no, I went and I bought
this from like a government website or
something like
credit repair. The scam is this, that
you've screwed up your credit. You want
to get a loan, but your social security
number is like radioactive because your
credit's so bad. So, they're going to
get you a CPN, which is what a credit
protection number, credit something.
There's two different ones. Yeah, it's
yeah, it's something.
a credit repair service, but all they're
really doing you is giving you some poor
bastard's social security number or
making up a list of numbers for you to
do. And now you're basically stealing
someone's identity to get this car loan.
Yeah, it's either a social security
number that's has that has been issued,
but no one's using, which means it's
probably someone someone under 18, or
it's just a number that hasn't been
issued yet. Like, it will be.
Still, so it's it's basically a child
social security number or will be a
child social security number.
of which is issued by the government.
And so, So some guy in the back of his
panel van who's giving you a social
security number that you're paying for,
you're you're he's basically he's using
a random number generator and it doesn't
give you doesn't repair your credit and
certainly doesn't give you the right
because that may either now or in the
future be owned by someone else. And now
you're now you're just ruining someone
else's credit.
Well so I did a whole video on this and
there were so many people in the comment
section saying that you know, that's not
true and this and that and they're going
on and on and on and I'm explaining to
them no it is true and I said look it
let me put it this way. And they're like
no because you know, like Kanye West or
if you're a famous person you have to
use these cuz their their identities get
stolen, they get tracked so they they
issue them to them and the government
issues them. Stop it. So this then
then what happens is I'm like okay,
let's say that's true.
You're not doing it to avoid being
tracked by the by the paparazzi. You're
going in to get a to get a car loan.
Right.
And you're and where it says social
security number, you're putting social
that you're putting your CPN.
Right.
is they ask for your social security
number and you give them anything other
than your social security number, you've
committed fraud.
Loan fraud, absolutely. Yeah.
Like that's over. So so you can stop
with your little no you don't I got
the lender has a right to assess your
creditworthiness before they give you
their money to go buy a car and they
the means by which we have decided as a
nation to assess someone's
creditworthiness, we're tracking that
via the social security number. So by
merely making up another number, it
doesn't give you a new start on life.
All you're doing is is lying to the
lender about your creditworthiness.
Yeah.
Yeah, love those guys. Um
Okay.
That's all I had to say.
you feel good right now about this? You
feel
About the episode?
Yeah.
Pure brilliance. We're
going to win awards. This is
Oh my god, I'm I'm amazing.
you We got to address the like to the
YouTube awards after this episode airs.
Um you were I I saw I I think you put
these up on on your Instagram. You were
on another on a podcast recently. What
was that? Cuz it was it was shot really
well.
I've been on a bunch of podca- After I
did your first episode, the floodgates
opened from a lot of other really
well-produced podcasts. Not as
well-produced as yours, but good
podcasts. And
that the fact that Colby's sitting right
there means nothing.
Yeah, Colby did a beautiful job making
us look great even though we were
dressed alike. And so I received some
some offers to be on other shows and I
always do my due diligence and make sure
that they're shows that one have a
decent audience and two are
well-produced. And I want I like these
face-to-face conversations. I'm not I'm
not really good on the Zoom call shows.
And so
So you know, I did the Reed Marine show,
which was really good and I and I know
he's a fan of yours as well. I did a
show called Thinking Bigger with
Fai-
Fai- Tim Fahey. I feel terrible I'm
forgetting his name. Thinking Bigger's
the name of the show.
Did that show and that was shot real
well and he's he's also a huge fan.
Where are those located?
Um Marine is in DC. Fahey is based in
Los Angeles, but he happened to be doing
a week's worth of shows in Atlanta. And
so I went to Atlanta to film that with
him.
And and I and I've done a couple
episodes of Surviving the Survivor. Kind
of it's more of a a daily live true
crime show, STS on on
Survivor.
It's real popular.
Sounds like um
What is the guy that Shoot, I can't
believe I can't remember his name now
either.
Um anyway, we uh there was a guy I think
it was called the Survivors Survivors
group or something like that.
Yeah.
Surviving the Survivors like a daily
kind of ripped from the headlines kind
of show talking about the hot true crime
case of the week with sort of a
a kind of Brady Bunch looking panel of
experts. And so I've done a couple
episodes of that. And
and I think he's based here in Florida.
And but yeah, so But anyway, so your
show has catapulted me to uh, great
heights in the as a YouTube true crime
guest and I'm just so honored to be here
with you.
Oh my god.
Um
Well, all right. Um
I'm good yeah other than I was going to
I was going to mention one other show
that that was a scam show.
So it was maybe ridiculous, but you
might want to watch it. It's it's
actually got, uh, and I'll never be able
to say his name right. He's like a
Puerto Rican guy. Um Rob or somebody
anyway he's from New York and, uh,
Oh gosh, the name of what I know the
name of the was called Empire.
Okay.
So it was he was a drug dealer and
there's a
there's a a con man and his girlfriend.
Mhm. The girlfriend goes to college.
I don't even know how she this ended up
being or she hangs out hangs out of the
college and she ends up
picking up or picking friends
that have money that are connected to
money somehow. I don't know how that
exactly works, but she basically
brings then they would have a party. The
con man has a party and she that she
lures all these people with their
boyfriends or husbands or something to
the party. So there's a party with a
bunch of guys that have money.
Okay.
And what he acts like he's a big time
stockbroker.
And he kind of goes around and he's
rented a penthouse and everything. So he
basically smoozes with all these guys
that have money. Well, just so happened
that the one girl
in the show her boyfriend is a drug
dealer.
Okay.
So he goes there
talks to the guy.
He zeros in on the the con man zeros in
on him realizing cuz I remember that
they have a scene where the girlfriend's
like, "Why ain't you know, why? Why do
you how much do you think he's worth?"
And he's like, "I think he's probably
worth a few million." He goes, "And it's
going to be all cash." He goes, "That's
cuz he's a drug dealer."
Yeah.
So they kind of start focusing on him
and at some point they're just going
having fun, you know, paying for skiing
trips and hanging out. Eventually, the
the drug dealer says, "Look,
if I gave you some money,
what could I get in return?" He's like,
"Well, I mean, it depends. It's all
They're different transactions,
different buyouts. He was in it's not
short, man. It's not like you're going
to give it to me on Monday, you get it
back Friday." He's like, "It take
They'll take 3 4 5 maybe 6 months."
Yeah.
So, the guy ends up giving him, let's
say it's 4 500,000. And he comes to him
like in cash.
Right.
He's like, "What are you doing?"
He's like, "You can't give me this in
cash." Like he knows he wants it. He's
like, "What what
He's like and he's like, "Well, you want
me to take it back?" He's like, "No,
I'll figure it out. I'll I know a guy."
Yeah.
Gives him half a million dollars.
And then 3 months later, he calls him
and tells him to come to the office. So,
he comes to the office, but it's like an
HQ, right? It's like a fake office. But
he goes up, it looks legit. I've rented
many of these. You go up, there's a
receptionist. It looks like a law firm,
practically. You walk up like a big law
firm.
shared office space, though.
Shared office space, right. So, you go
in and she's got a check for him. She
hands him a check.
Mhm.
He's supposed to have lunch that day
with him. So, he shows up with like the
check. He's like, "Hey, I got the
check." Such and such. He's like, "What
am I going to do with this?" He's like,
"Uh put it in your bank." He's like,
"How am I going to do that?" He's like,
"I can get you a bank account. I can try
and get it in cash. Give me an You have
to give me a few weeks." And he goes He
said um He's like, "Man, I made a ton of
money here. I mean, I made What do you
make? 250,000 dollars by giving you half
a million. I got 750,000." He goes
and he says, "Look." He says, "Uh can
we" And he says, "Can we roll it over?"
That's the trick.
Right. And he goes He's like, "Um
the problem is the deal I'm working on
is structured differently than the last
one."
Mhm.
He's like, "Well, what do you mean?"
He's like, "You'd have to put in more
money. This isn't it. You You're better
off just take this.
Let's just give I'll give me a week or
two, I can get to the cash." He's like,
"No, no, no. I want I want the other
one. I want the other one."
So,
he says, "You'd have to put in another 2
and 1/2 million dollars."
And he's like,
"I can get 2 and 1/2 million." He's
like, "How much time do I have?" He's
like, "I I need it pretty quick, like 2
three weeks.
Mhm.
He goes to his other drug dealer people
and then he goes to his source
and he borrows the money. And he brings
like two and a half million in cash to
the guy.
Yeah.
Of course they take it. Boom, they're
gone. Two three weeks later he goes he's
calling, nothing, nothing, nothing, no
no return phone calls, no then it then
it's just the phone's off. Then he goes
to his house, there's a real estate
realtor showing his condo.
Mhm.
Then he goes to the office and they're
like and he's like, "I need to talk to
so and so." and they're like, "Who?"
I I don't know. I mean, has he rented
here before? Yeah, well, I sat in that
conference room. It was three months
ago. Don't you remember him? And then
she's like
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, he just rented the
conference room that day.
And he's he's looking at now he's
realizing what's happening.
I've heard so many scams with those
shared office spaces create the illusion
of wealth and infrastructure.
Oh, it's so legitimate. So legitimate.
Yeah.
It's It's I was going to say the the
psychology behind some of these con
artists. Now, that one obviously that's
a movie. It's based on, I'm sure, you
know, a real real life events.
You ever see the movie The Spanish
Prisoner?
Oh, I was going to say I'm not familiar.
It's Steve Martin in it actually in a
serious role. It's written by David
Mamet, the Chicago playwright. Um
I got to get that.
Yeah, it's a great movie. You'd like it
and it has a a scene very similar to
that in it.
Well, I have another one. I have a one
more you'll So, there's a guy there was
a guy named Ron Wilson. He had a $57
million Ponzi scheme. The The FBI said
it was like over a hundred million, but
that's because he
That was fake money.
Yeah. So, really $57 million of loss.
Mhm.
I remember he used to tell me he would
have these big he would get financial
planners. So, he his Ponzi scheme he
actually ran legitimately a legitimate
um gold or yeah, I think it was called
Atlantic
bullion golden bullion or precious
metals, whatever. He traded precious
metals.
Okay.
And he'd done it for 10 years.
Mhm.
And keep in mind a lot of these guys
will actually come and they'll just buy
precious metals. Like they'll buy
$30,000 of silver. So, his specialty was
to trade in silver and he had a way to
do it and everything. So, he did it for
like 10 years and after 10 years
he or did it for 15 years and then then
he did it for another 10, but it was
straight Ponzi scheme.
Yeah.
But what he had what he would do is he
would take financial advisors and he'd
bring them with their clients to
seminars and he would explain he would
pitch his his thing.
Yeah.
And the big thing with him was he was
super arrogant. And
I remember he used to say all the time
that guys would come to him and they'd
say, "Well,
you know, I'm going to give you this
200,000. How do I know?" And he'd say,
you know, that this that this is going
to work and he'd say, "You don't.
You don't. You just have to trust me."
I'm not sure that's a good that's good
enough. I don't really know you. He's
like, "Okay, well, I don't need the
money."
Yeah, you got to be able to let them
walk. Make them come to you.
Yeah. And he was big on that. He's like,
"Look, I you came here. You came to the
seminar. Your financial guy came to the
seminar. He has other clients that have
made money." He's like, "If that's not
good enough, like I don't know what is."
He's like, "Look, if you want, I'll just
give you you can buy $200,000 of silver.
I'll just give you the silver." Like,
"No, I want to buy it on margin."
Obviously. He's like, "Right. Well, I
trade that in my name and my company's
name. We've been here 25 years."
He's like, "If that's not enough, I
don't know what is and I'm fine. It was
nice meeting you and
Mhm.
I'll pay for lunch and and they would
No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine.
Boom.
They give him the money.
That's the whole trick, right? You want
to create a a sense of exclusivity. That
was Bernie Madoff's trick, right? Bernie
Madoff, you had to be you had to know
somebody or be kind of a big deal or a
high roller so Bernie Madoff would be
willing to take your money in. And so
once you create that level of demand
among people, their rational thought
goes out the window.
It it I was going to say it's funny too.
Bernie Madoff wouldn't have a
conversation with If you were supposedly
like a financial advisor or really if
you knew anything, he would
I don't talk to financial adviser. I
don't he
walk away from you.
Of course.
Because they if they looked into it at
all, they'd start to go this is really
your returns are
The house of cards collapses once an
expert begins looking under the hood.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um
Yeah, I was going to say but Bernie
Madoff also his the the he seems so
legit for so long even when people did
bring it up. It's amazing he got away
with it as long for as many people that
did try and blow the whistle.
Yeah.
That's shocking.
Mhm.
Uh
At the end of the day it was his son who
blew the whistle.
Yeah, well after he realized
this whole thing's collapsing. You know
what I'm saying? It's not like he
figured it out.
agree, right. But the son was the first
person to walk into the FBI office and
say I think we have an issue.
Yeah. Yeah, well I've I've had a I
actually wrote a story about a guy the
same thing. He when he realized that it
was a Ponzi, he was involved in Ponzi.
These guys had brought him in to help
raise money.
So when it
First first one in the door gets the
deal. They'll either be on the
government bus then under the government
bus.
Yeah, well yeah.
Well, he didn't realize it was a Ponzi.
Yeah.
He's saying I didn't realize it was a
Ponzi and that's why as soon as it he
found out he went straight to the FBI
and said this is a Ponzi scheme.
That's a wise choice.
Well, yeah, the problem was that
everybody had he he had personally
raised 17 million. So all the victims
were like he said this.
he still have the he still have that
personal issue with the victims, right?
Yeah, so now yeah, so now he ends up
getting indicted and then he goes to
trial
saying I didn't know anything. Well,
guess what? The other two guys involved
get on the stand and say he did know.
Mhm.
Yeah.
He's doing 17 years.
Wow.
Last time you were here
So you wanted to clear this up.
I got a bone to pick with you, Matthew
Cox. All right, so let's get this So
last time I was here, my first time on
the show, we were both wearing nearly
identical black t-shirts. And er
Which was your fault.
Well, let's get let's let's talk about
that, okay? Cuz the cuz I got dragged in
the comments for it like I'm some kind
of like gay single white female stalker
or whatever. I don't know what it was.
And then on on a couple episodes later
you made some references to it and uh as
if this was my idea. As if I decided to
dress like you some like I'm some kind
of Matt Cox tribute band.
Right.
Right. So, So, which of course I
remember quite differently, but we have
different memories. That happens. My
question to your audience, even though
you're they're your fans and not mine,
is who are you going to believe? A
former FBI special agent or a con artist
who's done time?
I feel like my guys would believe me.
so, too. So, let's let's take a look at
the evidence, ladies and gentlemen of
the jury. I'll give you a copy.
Okay.
Here's the text messages we shared when
you booked me for the show.
Uh I'm the guy in the blue, you're the
guy in the gray. Why don't I read the
blue part and you can read the gray
part?
I said, "Do you have a preferred attire
or color you'd like me to wear? I really
enjoy the way you shoot your podcast and
want to make it as visually pleasing for
your audience as possible." And what did
you say, Matt?
I put "That's funny because
I had a guest wear a black T-shirt the
other day. I wore a black T-shirt also.
So, people in the comments were asking
if we had arranged it." And then I put
um "You're the first person to ask. Uh
you can wear whatever you feel
comfortable in, but if you would like to
wear a black T-shirt or a black shirt,
uh
I have about 10 of them and I'm sure I
can match uh to yours.
And we'll both be wearing black. That
would be kind of cool." Listen, I
remember this vastly different.
I remember
I'm doctoring documents now?
It's a vastly different conversation in
my mind. And then I put um "But it's
totally up to you."
I said, "Sounds good. I mean, you know,
it I'm I'm a guest here, right? So, you
want me to dress like you if you that if
that makes you makes your show better,
I'm happy to do that. I just don't want
your audience to think that I was
somehow stalking you or dressing like
you for Halloween."
So, anyway, I I put I Oh my god, I put
"Oh, you No, you you said
"Yeah, sounds good. We could look like
we're in a doo-wop group or something."
I'm making fun of you at that point for
asking me to dress like you, Matt.
that at all. I So, I put "Also,
typically, uh I always wear t-shirts. So
it would be a black t-shirt. Boy, I got
specific, didn't I?
I am getting directions from the host of
a wildly popular true crime podcast
about what to wear and I just complied.
So then So then when people started
asking, "Bro, what In the comments they
were asking like, "Bro, what did you
guys arrange this?" I said, "I didn't
arrange this. He arranged it."
exactly. Then you're making it seem like
that you had this weirdo on your show
who wanted to dress like you.
know what You know how the these FBI
guys are. They don't know what's going
through this guy's head.
part of our conversation where you
apologize to me for dragging through
this.
I
I miss I misunderstood. All right. I
misremember that conversation. Cuz you
were the first person to ever even even
ask. And so I was like, "Huh." I was
like, "You know what? That's a
Yeah, yeah. I'll wear a black. You can
wear a black. Like
Everyone should ask. This is a wildly
popular YouTube show and your guest
should want to put their best foot
forward to make your show as pleasing as
possible to the viewers.
I agree. But most people show up in in
t-shirts with like emblems or
logos and
unshaved.
today you're wearing black and I'm
wearing blue. So maybe we can put this
issue to rest and be friends again.
Yeah. That's fine.
All right.
Hey, if you guys like the video, do me a
favor, hit the subscribe button. Go to
Simon investigation on TikTok and
Instagram. And he does Is it's daily,
right?
I do daily 90-second videos telling
crime stories.
Yeah, they're really good. He's got a
huge following.
Super interesting. So if you like the
video, do me a favor, hit the subscribe
button, hit the hit the bell so you get
notified of videos like this. Also,
leave me a comment in the comment
section. Please consider joining my
Patreon. Thank you guys very much. See
you.
More from Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime
cash app & GB rayshawn
CATCHING THE FBI'S MOST WANTED WOMEN | FBI AGENT FRAUD STORIES
Cecilie Fjellhoy - need title, playlist, schedule
Dark Web Kingpin Makes Millions... Then One Fatal Mistake
Exposing Flock: Americas Mass Surveillance Company | James Fishback
FBI AGENT Reveals Bizarre Stories Behind Airplane Freakouts | Tom Simon
FBI's Most Wanted Con Man Steals $30M | The Condo King
Gay Patriot Becomes Political Prisoner & Exposes Corruption
GB arthur
GB chef
GB Cuzzo
GB dogs
gb Jaimee
GB jeremy
GB keller