I was thinking about the North Pole
police. They walk in. There's a bunch of
little guys.
>> Hello, Met Cox.
>> It is so so good to see you again. I
feel like it's been months, but it's
only been a few weeks.
>> I know. I can hear the comments now.
>> Your fans,
>> they love us.
>> Yes, they do.
>> My god, I' I've never gotten so much
positive feedback in my life than
looking at the comments on your YouTube
page. It is
>> It's so gratifying. It makes up for the
fact that you don't pay me anything to
do this and I'm making you rich and
we're putting up big numbers and the
fans like us together. This is
gratifying.
>> I know. It's It's even better because I
don't pay you and it irritates you so
much.
>> It doesn't irritate me.
>> It's that much more gives me that much
more of a tickle in my tummy.
>> I know. I know. The idea of defrauding
someone is is is uh creates happiness in
you. But I I I I love your fans. They
are the nicest people in the world.
>> And so I I mean every now and then you
get a lunatic. I was going to say I'm
going to pull I'm going to have to pull
some of the some of the lunatic ones and
send I'm going to start sending those to
you instead of
>> Look at the comment again. I mean yeah
those are the ones that you stick that
stick with you. Right. Those are the
ones I'm laying in bed. The guy who's
like
>> what did I do to that guy?
>> This guy sucks.
>> They hate me.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. But no,
but the again I'm just tickled pink with
how nice your fans are and how much they
like what we do here when I come out.
>> Good times. Good times.
>> It is. So here's the deal. I got a dozen
stories for you today. A dozen crime
stories ripped from the pages of federal
law enforcement. most FBI, couple of
them I worked, most are just other
people's work. I don't want to take
credit for anyone else's work. And we're
going to play a game that we've played
before. And I know there's people out
there who don't know the format of this,
so I want to kind of lay it all out that
I'm going to tell you the crime story.
I'm going to tell you what the bad guy
did, what the how the bad guy was
caught, if I know, how the investigation
unfolded, how the litigation unfolded,
and your job, Matt Cox, is to tell me
how much time that person got in prison
>> based on all the facts we know. I'm
happy to answer any questions along the
way. And uh if you were within 20%
of the actual sentence, then you get a
point.
>> Colby is going to be keeping track of
this. A passing score for young Matt Cox
>> is 50%.
>> Okay.
>> Which you have achieved before.
>> Yeah.
>> Like by the skin of your teeth.
>> Other times you failed miserably.
>> I I
I'd also like to say that even though
you're giving me the information,
there's some information the re that you
don't have. Like sometimes you don't
know if they cooperated. So some of
these things, some of the offset like I
I can't, you know, I'm not getting that
information because if some guy could
get five years and I'm saying five years
and he ends up getting two years
sometime there's that variance could be
because he cooperated against three
other people.
>> When you place a bet on football, do you
know what whether the guy had a had a
Wendy's chili right before the game? You
don't know. There's a lot of variables
in in gamesmanship.
>> I'm saying you're only you know you're
an artist is only as good as the medium
he's working in. I'm giving you all the
information I have in the in the case
that I worked. I'll tell you what color
underwear the guy was wearing, right? I
just don't always have the information
because I'm drawing from the public
record here and uh and conversations
sometimes with my friends who
investigated the cases, but I'm not
always thinking like what's Matt going
to want to know about this thing. And
honestly, if I gave you everything,
there would be no gamesmanship to it
because then you could just plug in the
sentencing guidelines and it will spit
out a sentence.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, let's do the first story.
>> Okay. Um, let me start with an
open-ended question. Have you ever spent
much time in a landfill
where people, you know, you throw
something away and
>> Yeah, I've driven by many of them.
>> Yeah, I've spent way too much time at
landfills.
>> Oh, really? Like digging through trash
to try and recover evidence?
>> Dead bodies?
>> No. Oh,
>> yeah. I've had three different
investigations where a person is
missing. One was two sisters who ended
up coming up missing. They were
kidnapped at a bus stop and uh and we
had no idea where they were. Still, we
still don't. It's an unsolved case. And
um we thought it was possible because it
was garbage day that the girls were
literally thrown in the trash after
being offed. And so we spent a week in
like the blazing sun digging through the
garbage at the landfill.
>> The another case, a hairdresser
uh came up missing. And so we went to a
landfill in Georgia where all of the
garbage in Florida goes to and spent I
think 10 days digging through that
garbage. It's an amazing experience
being in a landfill because it's as far
as the eye can see it's a gigantic
mountain of trash, but it's done like
lasagna where it's it's
level layer of soil,
>> right? layer of trash, layer of soil,
and in waste management or whoever the
company is that would manage it does
sort of an amazing job kind of building
this thing up into the sky. That's all
the garbage. And what they do when we're
doing a landfill search, and this is
probably more information than we need
to know for this story, is that they
clear out a kind of um a a flat um bit
of soil about the size of a pro football
field and um or amateur football field,
any football field. And they begin and
and they can identify where the trash
from this particular neighborhood on
this particular date came from. Like
what quartortile of the giant lasagna of
the mountain and then they move the
trash there a little bit at a time,
spread it out in kind of a field and
then you get about a 100 agents standing
shoulder-to-shoulder, myself included,
with hoes kind of looking through the
trash, looking for the body of the
victim. And then my third one, we
actually successfully found the lady uh
her her remains. She was murdered here
in Florida by a contractor. It's a story
I'll tell some other time.
>> And this was this was in uh this was in
the landfill. You felt found her in Oh,
>> yeah. Yeah. We were looking for her. We
had good information that he had dumped
her there.
>> This is not a fun story. This is not
this is not this is not nearly as fun of
a story as I was hoping. I didn't even
know you I didn't even know you'd ever
worked on uh any uh uh murder
investigations.
>> Again, I'm not the case agent. I'm
unskilled. I'm unskilled labor. They
need bodies, right? They need they need
any dumb body who can just have enough
stamina to kind of dig through trash
with a hoe under the blazing sun of the
freezing air, you know, depending on
what time of year it is for 14 hours a
day looking for the body of a victim.
And um and we found it and the guy's uh
serving life in prison. That bottom
line, that's a different story. But I've
spent time in landfills and there was a
case that I did investigate involving a
landfill on the Big Island of Hawaii.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. The landfill was a I think it was
a municipal landfill, but it was run by
the company Waste Management who runs
most of the big landfills in the US and
they're very good at what they do. And
they had a woman named Donna who was the
business manager at the landfill. Okay.
And the Big Island had real
sensitivities about this landfill
because what they don't want because the
winds on the Big Island, the Hawaiian
trade winds can be intense. And so they
would employ litter pickers to kind of
work the perimeter of the landfill,
picking up and stopping the garbage that
would just naturally blow as the wind
was coming. You know, your Twinkies
containers and things like that and
bags, plastic, a lot of plastic bags.
and try to like pick those up and
contain them within the actual landfill
so it's not spreading all over the big
island. And these litter pickers were
actually employed by a temp agency, like
a temp labor agency,
>> right?
>> This is like minimum wage work, not
like, you know, not a job any
>> not skilled labor.
>> It's not It's important labor, but not
skilled labor, right? And so the
landfill had these hourly workers from a
temp agency that would pick up the trash
being blown out of the perimeter of the
dump. And uh and you know a small army
of people. And so Donna who was a you
know working for waste management she
was the one who would kind of schedule
the temps from the local temp agency on
the big island and make sure that
they're there every single day to kind
of pick up the trash so it doesn't blow
off the perimeter and make the big
island one big dump. But what no one
knew is that she went to the temp agency
at the very beginning and said, "Listen,
when you invoice us, I want you to make
those invoices larger than they would be
otherwise, and you're going to pay me a
kickback for giving you this contract."
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> For more money.
>> For more money. Right. So, Donna is is
she's awarding the contract to the temp
agency, scheduling the temps, but the
temp a and the temp agency would bill
waste management, who would then pay
that bill. But what Donna is saying is,
I want you to gross that bill up.
>> Pad it.
>> Pad that bill. And the difference
between the actual money that you
billing for the actual labor of these
temps and the money that you're getting
paid goes to me, Donna.
>> It's a kickback scheme.
>> A kickback scheme. Exactly.
This kickback scheme continued for 4
years until she goes on vacation. Donna
goes on vacation and there was a day
where no temps showed up to work. It's
the risk you take. Mhm.
>> And um and Waste Management had one of
their managers there above Donna from
their headquarters in Houston who was
out there who was noticing that the
garbage is blowing everywhere. Donna's
gone. It was sort of chaos. It was a bad
day. Like where are the temps?
>> And uh and so Donna comes back, they're
dealing with it. that manager um then is
paying the invo is is reviewing the
invoice from the temp agency and
remembered that day from a couple weeks
ago and saw that that day there was
supposed to be 200 hours of temporary
labor and he's like well there were no
temps on the job that day none of them
showed up to work
>> right
>> and that's how she got caught
>> just a fluke
>> just a fluke she went on vacation which
embezzor should never ever do
>> yeah yeah that happens that is this is
this is a common theme one day. They're
just they miss two days or they miss a
week and somebody steps in the position.
>> Exactly. And and because she didn't have
time to cover it up and get temps there
that day and the temp agency is going to
be billing for hours that didn't exist
because they need to pay Donna.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And so that's what launched the
internal investigation and eventually
the referral that landed on my desk.
>> Some damn dogooder got her.
>> Mhm. So we quantified the embezzle uh
the embezzlement which continued for
four years. And we go to the temp
agency. I go to the temp agency and I
interview the lady named Sher. Nice
lady.
>> She breaks immediately.
>> Breaks immediately. And she and uh and
and she's like, "Well, I didn't know
this is Donna is telling me this is how
it worked. I need the contract. Single
mother, blah blah blah blah blah."
>> And so,
you know, could I prove that she knew
this was an illegal kickback scheme?
>> Maybe, maybe not. Her cooperation was
more valuable as a witness, right?
>> Because it's The temp agency lady is not
taking a taste for herself other than
what's already baked into the amount
that she's billing out for the actual
temp workers.
>> And she does have an argument there of
this is how it works. No, no, you you
give us you bill us this much, you put
this much on top of it,
>> right? I mean, she has one client, waste
management. If this is how waste
management does business, it's kind of
none of her business. She's going to pay
she's going to pay what the client wants
her to pay. It doesn't cost her any
extra money to gross it up. And she and
Donna said that's how she gets paid.
Yeah. And so I didn't have a great case
against Sherry, but I really needed
Sherry's cooperation. And she was able
to give me basically a nice schedule uh
showing me how much was actually worked,
how much was gross. I mean, she created
a legitimate set of invoices and then
the illegitimate set of invoices that
actually went to waste management. Oh,
>> okay. Okay.
>> I feel like she knew it more than I feel
like that ar that wasn't a strong
argument on her part, but okay.
>> But again, I would need to prove that
beyond a reasonable doubt. And um
>> and you need her help. I need her help.
So Sher skates go. She skates. She
skates.
>> Donna doesn't skate. We computed Donna
was caught uh four years $862,000.
>> That's a That's nice. That's a nice
chunk of change, right?
>> Uh Waste Management will have none of
this. They're not They fire her. Yeah.
Right. And uh and Donna uh
>> No, Waste Management has never been
involved in anything nefarious. There's
never been any mobsters that owned Waste
Management companies. Waste Management
is a publicly traded American
corporation based in Texas. I'm not here
to disparrage them.
>> Their industry though has a history of
issues,
>> right?
>> Uh but the actual publicly traded
corporation that could sue you out of
existence,
>> lovely people.
>> So, all right. No, there's no Tony
Sopranos on the on the board. That's
that's where we're making that clear.
>> It's a thing of the past.
>> Yeah. Thing of the past. This is a
publicly traded, perfectly legitimate
corporation that was defrauded out of
$862,000
by a monster.
>> Donna,
probably a grandmother. Okay.
>> I did interview people about Donna and
um and they said that she was kind of a
bully.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. And
>> they said and they everyone talked about
how physically large she was and I go,
"You mean fat?" And they go, "No, large
like a linebacker." And uh and I go,
"Really?" And I looked at pictures of
her. She just looked like a normal, you
know, 50-y old lady or whatever. And uh
yeah, it was weird. They um
>> she had a presence. She must have had a
presence.
>> She was, which kind of makes sense in
that industry. I mean, that industry is
a kind of, you know, a rough and tumble
industry. And um
>> some people have presences. Like people
when I walk in the room, people say I
have a presence. They think I'm like
tall and good-looking and and
>> well anyway,
>> one out of two ain't bad.
>> Donna moves to Las Vegas. I hop on a
plane to Las Vegas.
>> Why did she move to Las Vegas? She knows
there's something going on. She She's
>> Well, I think Donna Donna her employment
um options were limited. Yeah, they
fired her.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Before you ever talked to her,
>> sadly. Yes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
>> And uh like they they don't need her
presence there. And
>> financial crime work. It's um it may
have cost me the ability to kind of get
the jump on her, right? But it's more
important to Waste Management to have a
reliable employee there at the landfill
that they can count on who's not
involved in an embezzlement scheme.
>> I get it. And so, um so Donna moves to
Las Vegas and uh I fly to Las Vegas,
which um a lot of people from Hawaii
like going to Las Vegas on vacation.
everyone, the the locals as they call
them, which is sort of the euphemism for
people, the kind of Asians and Hawaiians
who live in Hawaii, they they like going
to Las Vegas on vacation. I mean, they
live in paradise and they like gambling,
uh, honestly. But Donna was
>> from Hawaii, but you know, normal white
lady, but she moved to Vegas. A lot of
people moved to Vegas. Okay. And, um, I
don't know what her rationale was.
>> I go to Donna's house, knock on the
door, she's not there. a roommate or a
friend or someone who's living with her
answers the door. So now it's like I got
you know is Donna here? No. Um you know
like who are you? And so I give her I
give my business card. I say my name's
Tom Simon. I'm an FBI special agent.
Just need to talk to her about some
stuff and you know but my card says I'm
from Hawaii and uh and I go I I came in
from Hawaii. I'm uh I'm staying here in
Vegas for a couple days. I'd really like
to get together and talk with her. Um
you know I'm not here to arrest her.
Just want to talk to her. could you have
her give me a call? And uh and so then
uh then I'm just sort of driving around
Vegas thinking, what's going to happen?
Is she gonna call me? Is she gonna take
off? What's she going to do? And uh then
I get a call from a criminal defense
attorney.
>> Ah
>> yeah. And so I kind of I never really
got my crack at interrogating her and
getting the confession. The criminal
defense attorney was way over his skis.
He was literally like a drunk driving
attorney from a billboard,
>> right?
>> And um and so and and he and what do you
want with her? well, you know, there was
an issue. She got fired in uh in Hawaii.
I just want to understand her side of
the story about what happened. And I go,
and I'd be happy to interview her, you
know, in your presence. And he's like,
uh, let me get back to you. And then I
then, yeah, that was from him. And so I
I put my tail between my legs, flew back
to Hawaii, took her to the grand jury,
indicted her, and she came in and plead
guilty.
>> Okay.
>> And uh no criminal history. Um, during
her sentencing, she made a long uh kind
of eloquent story about how how she uh
had a very rough upbringing herself with
some, you know, rough men in her life
life who treated her poorly. And I think
there's probably some truth to that.
Mhm.
>> Uh she came off as a sympathetic figure,
not a bully in in at her sentencing as
she's kind of uh you know, talking about
how sorry she is and and kind of blaming
this theft on financial hardships about
being a single mother and the um and
kind of the damage that the men had done
to her in her life. And Waste Management
arguably is a big corporation, not the
most sympathetic victim.
>> Mhm.
>> And she plead guilty, but the loss is
substantial, right? We're talking
$862,000 over four years. And so I ask
you, Matt Cox, how much time did she get
in prison?
>> This whole time that the this 31 months
is jumping in my head, but I'm going to
say 20 24 months.
>> 24 months is your guess.
>> I'm going to go I'm going to go 24
months.
>> Talk me through your thought process.
>> I always like to
>> There's nobody to cooperate against.
Actually, it might be 30.
>> I'm not talking you out of 24. I just
want to know. I want I want you think of
Matt Cox.
>> I'm thinking to myself that I don't know
ba based on some of these other first of
all she has no criminal history
>> right
>> you know uh I don't think that a bunch
of people got up there and talked about
how she stole their you know stole their
uh retirement funds you know it's it's
you know so it seems
>> I don't think there was a victim impact
statement there was no one from I mean
corporate may have sent someone out but
they weren't like crying.
>> Yeah. So I mean it's not like she's got
40 victims or 80 victims. She's got one
victim. It's, you know, it's probably
she got hit with some enhancement,
sophisticated me and stuff like that.
>> More than minimum flanning.
>> Yeah. I I think but, you know, in the
end, I don't think it's that complicated
of a of a scam. And I don't think she
harmed anybody and I don't know what the
restitution if she paid restitution,
she's probably blowing the money. Yeah.
>> Um, so
>> I don't think she was living
extravagantly. Life in Hawaii is very
expensive. So, you know,
>> she's got a roommate.
>> Enhancing your uh enhancing your salary
for about $225,000. It's going to be a
nicer house. Get your car payment made.
But in Hawaii, that gets queued up like
that.
>> Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm saying like
I I I just don't think I don't think you
can
can't imagine giving her probation.
>> Mhm.
>> But I wouldn't give her five years. So,
I'm thinking somewhere in between
whatever two years.
>> All right. Two years. 24 months is your
guess.
>> Yeah. 24 months.
>> Okay. The correct answer
is 33 months.
>> I was No, no, no, no. I believe you're
right. I believe you're in the in the I
believe I think the
>> 6 month variance 33 - 6.6
is the math
>> 26 months.
>> 80% of 33 is 26 months.
>> 33 *8 is 26.4.
>> So Matt was right outside the margin of
error.
>> So okay,
>> you're wrong.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you for adding
the sound effect.
>> Oh, I was so close, too. If if I had
stuck with 30 months and 31 months, I I
>> it was my I need to go with my gut.
That's the problem.
>> Did you take the SAT?
>> Uh yeah.
>> They tell you to trust your first
instincts when you take the SAT.
>> I think I got like a 1380 or something.
I got to take it untimed.
>> Oh, because you went to a school for
short bus kids.
>> Yeah.
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>> Yes. And I was able to take breaks. I
was in the hold. I was able to go out
and look up words in in a dictionary in
my car.
>> You took the short bus.
>> You ever go to college?
>> Yeah, I got a four-year degree. Fine
arts.
>> Where'd you go?
>> USF.
>> Oh, right on.
>> Yeah. Tampa.
>> Yeah.
>> Excellent.
>> Go Bulls.
>> Go Bulls.
>> You ever uh ever been to Alaska?
>> No.
>> Does Does the idea of an Alaskan cruise
interest you?
>> Not at all. Tell me tell me about that
because it I used to have the same
answer
>> because I feel like it's it's freezing
cold and it's very cold and it's icy. I
mean, you know, like if somebody gave it
to me, I'd go I'm sure I'd go, but if I
was going to spend money, I think I'd
rather rather go on like a European
cruise or something. Um, why is it nice?
Have you been on one?
>> No, I haven't. And but I'm starting to
think about it and which mean is telling
me that maybe I'm reaching a certain age
because
>> the the crew the crowd at an Alaskan
cruise is a little older than the um
than the spring break crowd going to
Freeport
>> than the uh what is it the what's the
name of the Carnival cruise?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. And um and I but I
think I I look I've been on a European
cruise. want like one of those river
boat ones or
>> No, no. It was a It was a huge cruise
ship. It went to It went to like the
island of like Cree, you know, went to,
you know, uh gosh, went all over the
place, honestly. Venice,
uh it was like Venice, Greece,
um Italy, like we hit all the ports um
in the Mediterranean Sea. Uh uh Cree,
couple different things. It It was It
was It was awesome. And they're they're
Europeans. They're very They're very
lowkey.
>> Yeah, I get it. Yeah. I I'm kind of
making peace with the idea of doing some
vacations to cooler weather places.
>> We live here in Florida. We have great
weather. It's hot.
>> You know, it when I lived in Chicago,
the idea of going anywhere other than a
hot weather place was unthinkable. But
now that I have good weather year round,
maybe the idea of seeing the world on a
European vacation, I just took a
vacation to Iceland. We talked about
that in a previous episode. And I'm kind
of making peace in my mind with the
Alaska cruise because the pictures I'm
seeing on social media and friends who
go on it, it looks amazing and kind of
majestic and sort of a weird interesting
angle of America.
And um I don't know and and the the the
older crowd now that I'm getting older
probably wouldn't bother me as much as
if I was 25 like having to have dinner
with a bunch bunch of you know 50 60
year olds.
>> I'd rather have dinner with older
people.
>> That's the thing now, right? Like it's
not going to be the hot bikini chicks
necessarily, but whatever. I'll bring my
own date. And uh
>> maybe your wife.
>> Yeah, if she's lucky.
>> I say it's funny when you start talking
to these 25 year olds now, it's like
half the half the time I'm thinking
like, was I this stupid?
>> Well, there's Was I this
>> was I this much of a bonehead? Like I I
can't believe that. And the other I
think nice thing about the Alaskan
cruise is probably not going to get a
lot of little kids.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Right. Because again, I'm a, you know,
I'm a parent, but I've sort of done my
time around little kids, and a time may
come that my my kids start pounding out
kids, and so I have to be a grandparent,
but I have this nice window of time
right now where I really don't need to
subject myself to screaming 5-year-olds.
>> Yeah. I I I was talking to somebody the
other night and um he was talking about
he's I guess they've got like a little
like a little three-year-old or
something, and he was like, you know,
wow. He's like, man, we had a we finally
got a good babysitter. we actually were
able to get away for like a day and he's
like and honestly I haven't been away
from from him in like you know 3 years
he said and to get away for a day he's
like it was really it was nice cuz you
know they're just there's just constant
you know you're constantly on a full
time job.
>> Yeah. And I told him and I said have you
considered creating
>> and
that I you know and I thought like and
you know Jess just looked at me and
started laughing. I was like I was like
oh yeah I was joking. Yeah that's a
joke. But, you know, I mean,
>> yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean,
having kids is
>> putting the little gate up, you know,
and just make sure there's nothing they
can swallow when you leave. I mean,
sometimes you got to free range.
>> I could I could tell you some nightmare
stories of parents who did that.
>> That's another episode for the day.
There's a town in Alaska. The name of
the town is called North Pole.
>> Nice.
>> Isn't that clever? Yeah. There's
literally like you go to North Pole,
Alaska, and then it has its own zip
code. And um in the main the main street
in North Pole, Alaska, Santa Claus Lane.
>> Wait, those those uh they are uh
>> marketers.
>> Yeah, they're good. They're good. What
does the town look like?
>> It's lovely. Is it?
>> I never been there, but I've been
looking at it online based on the story
and it looks it's it's like a it's like
a theme party, you know? It's like those
towns that have a October Fest and they
have it looks like you might be in
Germany. This town looks like Santa
Claus's hometown.
>> Nice.
>> And there's a restaurant there.
um several restaurants there, but
there's one particular restaurant and um
don't know the name, don't know which
one, but we'll call it we'll call it the
North Pole restaurant,
>> okay,
>> for the sake of this conversation to
protect the identity of the victim.
>> And the owner of the restaurant took his
eye off the ball. He wasn't keeping an
eye on his own bank account. And then he
finally looks at the bank account after
about a week and notices that for the
last six days, none of his credit card
receipts,
someone rings it up on the credit card,
was being deposited into his business
bank account.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um, and because of this, he's
missing $128,000
in sales.
>> Geez.
>> You ever heard of a business email
compromise?
I mean, no, but I'm I'm I'm gonna
>> figure out what it is. So, what happens
is this. Somebody clicks on the wrong
thing or whatever and your email gets
hacked and then what the bad guys do is
they don't take over your email, but
they begin reading all of your emails to
look for information about you that they
can exploit regarding your financial
records,
>> right?
>> And so, he suffered a business email
compromise. It is a huge fraud right
now. The FBI is getting absolutely
swamped with business email compromises.
How do you get access to somebody's
email?
>> Fishing maybe.
>> Yeah, fishing. It's completely like
someone sends a message to you saying
like your Gmail has been compromised.
Please click on this link to reset your
password. And you click on that link.
Enter in your old password. Enter your
new password. But you're not truly on
the Gmail site. You're on a site that
looks identically like it. Right.
>> That's basically how someone in your
company has messed up.
>> Yeah.
>> But what happened is um so he had a
business email compromise. He didn't
know it at the time. But then, so he
calls the police. Oh, no. He begins to
he looks into his he calls his bank
first thing and like, "What's going on?
Why aren't my credit card deposits going
into your bank?" And he goes, "Because
um
>> they don't know
>> the merchant the merchant bank."
>> Well, they know. They They said, "Well,
the you're a few, you know, a week ago
>> you switched it.
>> You switched it. So, the money is not
being deposited into this bank account.
It's being deposited into a bank account
in Chicago under a business name called
Aeros. E R O S LLC. He's all
>> sounds legit.
>> I ain't Aeros,
>> right?
>> And uh where's my money? And the
merchant account bank is like, I don't
know what to tell you. Um you know, it's
like we didn't do it. You did it. He's
like, I didn't do it. And so he calls
the cops and says someone in Chicago is
has rerouted my money into their bank
account from my sales here. And then you
know what the North Pole police said? I
was just thinking I was thinking about
the North Pole police with their with
their red caps.
>> Ho ho ho.
>> They walk in. There's a bunch of little
guys walk in
>> making toys.
>> They got the shoes with the the curl on
them and the bell and they walk in.
>> I feel like these guys might not be
prepared.
>> Well, the North Pole police, they uh
what the hell do they know about
Chicago? They said and they said, "This
is clearly interstate and sort of beyond
the school, but we we can might
investigate properly here in North
Pole." I'm sure the cops there are
fantastic. And uh and so they contact
like a lower 48 problem.
>> They contact the FBI, right?
>> And so the FBI anchorage office begins
working with my former colleagues where
I was an agent for 13 years at the FBI
office in Chicago.
>> Oh, okay.
>> To get to the bottom of this thing and
they figured out that um that the Aeros
bank account to which the money was
going in was established by a woman
named Amber Dila.
And uh and then they uh do some further
investigating and find out that the
money that's getting banged out of this
account as it's being deposited is
actually winding up in the bank account
in the control of Amber's baby daddy,
Jacob Santenno.
Uh grab Amber, squeeze her a little bit.
She says, "I don't know what to tell
you. My baby daddy had me open up the
bank account. You know, I I knew what he
was up to. But Jacob's really the brains
behind this operation." Um, video from
the bank shows them going into the bank
together and literally withdrawing the
$128,000 in drips and drabs every day as
it was coming in, which was the, you
know, credit card receipts from the
restaurant in the North Pole,
>> right?
>> So, you get the fraud.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I'm wondering how he
got a hold of the information and how
did he he buy it on the web or something
or
>> uh I think he or he did the business
email compromise, the fishing thing.
He's good at that.
>> Yeah. Okay,
>> that's my understanding from basic court
records.
>> He's got part of the scam down. It's
just the part where it doesn't lead
directly back to you.
>> Well, I mean, he he's weak in that area.
>> He trusted his baby mama. What's not to
trust?
>> Well, but she was going to hold strong
and go and do prison time for him.
>> This is true love, right? You trust the
person you love, Matt Cox.
>> You're not romantic.
>> No.
>> Um, Jacob's a mastermind. Amber's
clearly hip deep in this thing. They
both get arrested. They both provide
full confessions that are consistent
with each other's stories.
>> Okay. Does he have a huge criminal
record? Sorry.
>> Um, don't know. My guess is that this is
not his first rodeo with crime, right?
Um, um, so I I actually did not run his
rap sheet and this wasn't my case. I
don't want to take credit for someone
else's investigation.
>> There's some business lessons here
>> for the restaurant. Bottom line is if
you own a small business and you got to
you can't take your eye off the ball,
you got to take a look at your bank
statement every damn day.
>> Yeah.
>> And just make sure online and make sure
that your deposits are actually going
into the bank account. Right. This could
have been caught on day one.
>> Right.
>> Right. But um but as far as what the
what the uh sentences are, got a twofer,
>> right,
>> this one for you to solve. You got Amber
who facilitated this fraud, opened up
the bank account, was walking into the
bank with her baby daddy. Then you got
Jacob, who was clearly the brains behind
the operation and kind of orchestrated
the whole thing and confessed. And um
and we got $128,000
losses that they never got back. and
poor poor restaurant in the North Pole
sitting there with their pockets open.
>> I understand how he doesn't get money,
but I don't understand how the the bank
wouldn't, you know, it's an electronic
um it's an electronic funds transfer. He
should be covered because the bank
transferred the funds and he found it
within 30 days and he reported it. And
>> I promise you that when you open up a
merchant account,
>> okay, the merchant account is is the
issue. So, it's not like a personal bank
account where you have you're protected,
>> right? He's opening up a merchant bank
account whose sole job is to connect you
to the system that allows people to
swipe their credit card. And that
merchant account is going to put that
money wherever you tell it to.
>> But he didn't tell it to put it
anywhere. He did. He's not the one who
transferred.
>> Well, if the merchant if the merchant
bank had been hacked, uh, then they
would clearly owe him the money. He
needs to be more careful with what he
clicks on in his email. Would be the
merchant bank's position. the merchant
bank, I promise you, in their merchant
agreement, it has a big old FU clause in
it saying, "Hey, dummy. If you if if
because of your negligence, you um you
someone someone out there changes the uh
where this thing's going, not my
problem. These banks are set up to make
money themselves, not to provide
customer service to the North Pole
restaurant."
>> Okay. I thought that he contacted, let's
say he's with Wells Fargo. Yeah. I
thought he contacted Wells Fargo and
said, "The money's not coming into my
bank account anymore." Like a and then
Wells Fargo said, "No, we transfer the
or we're not getting the money anymore.
It's being transferred somewhere else
now." That they were
>> That may be true, but your merchant bank
accepting your credit card deposits may
or may not be your where your checking
account is.
>> Right. That that's what I'm saying. So,
you're saying he contacted the merchant
bank account and said, "Where's my
checks?" And they said, "Oh, you
contacted us." Yes.
>> So, I don't see them having the same
prot
like Wells Fargo cuz look on Wells
Fargo,
>> if you contact Wells Fargo and they
allowed someone to take money out of
your account,
>> they have to put the money back, right?
If or same thing with like a credit
card, you contact your credit card
company, you say, "Hey, you just ran up
uh $40,000 in, you know, jewelry. I
didn't I wasn't in New York and that
wasn't me." they immediately put the
money back on your account, you know,
because you're covered by I think it's
called the Electronic Funds Transfer
Act,
>> right?
>> But this is something different.
>> In your in your example, Wells Fargo
could be providing two different
services. They could be providing the
merchant uh kind of hookup to the the
system. And they may be saying, "Oh, and
we'd love for you to bank here and have
your money deposited into your bank
account at Wells Fargo." That's
>> one you're covered. One you're covered,
one you're not probably if that was the
case.
>> I take credit cards for my private
investigative agency. My credit card
processor is Clover. Clover is going to
deposit my deposits into any bank
account I tell them to. Clover doesn't
have a bank. Clover doesn't run a bank.
So, I tell it to deposit it in my
business bank account.
>> If someone out there hopped on to Clover
because I was careless with my password
and said, I want you to route this to
the First National Bank of Lagos,
Nigeria, Clover's going to be, "Sir,
yes, sir." And it ain't their problem.
And I bet you and I'm positive that
Wells Fargo or whoever his merchant bank
is, I don't know who it is, probably has
that same attitude.
Okay, that's upsetting. But anyway,
>> 128,000 bucks. You have two defendants,
the baby daddy and the baby mama.
>> So, I think she gets probation because
she immediately cooperated and said,
"Look, it wasn't I opened it. I opened
it for him. She sent him his way."
>> Mhm.
>> And I think that he probably has a
criminal if he didn't have a criminal
record, I'd say he got
>> 12 months. But I bet you he has a
criminal record. Mhm.
>> And you know, he's done this before. And
I' I'm going to say I'm going to say
24 months. Although, you know, here's
the thing, like if it's off the chart,
like I knew a guy that for like 80 grand
got like 15 years.
>> Yeah.
>> And because he's he was off the chart.
You've been doing this your whole life.
So
>> let's say for the sake of this exercise
that both of them have a criminal
history, pushing them into criminal
history category two.
>> Okay. And then I would say she gets she
gets 24 months and he gets 48 months.
>> Is that your final answer?
>> I you just gave me a you you I mean I
because I can't I don't know what their
criminal history is, but I do want to
know what their sentences are and I'm
going to assume that somebody who pulls
off a scam like this
>> has it didn't just fall off a turnup
truck.
>> These are Chicago people,
>> right?
>> These are my people.
I Okay. Um, if you're we're assuming
they're in criminal history category
two, right, which means they have a
criminal history. He's not a serial
killer, but he's been he's got he's got
some convictions. He's done some maybe
it was shoplifting. Maybe it was
>> two, then I'd say she's getting 12
months and he's getting, you know, if
it's two, I'd say 12 months and 24
months.
>> You've been a real moving target on this
one, Matt Cox.
>> Well, I mean, you said criminal history.
>> I don't know what their criminal
histories are. I don't always have this
information. I also don't know their
zodiac signs. You need to make an
educated guess based on this.
>> My guess is 12 and 36.
>> And my educated guess is that someone
who pulls off a scam like this has
probably done something bad in the past.
And these guys aren't geniuses and
they've probably been caught.
>> 12 and 36.
>> 12 and 36.
>> Yes.
>> All right. Amber got two years in
prison, 24 months. [ __ ] Okay. Jacob,
the brains behind the operation. The man
who orchestrated a business email
compromise that cost the North Pole
restaurant 128,000 bucks got 43 months.
>> You got Jacob, you missed Amber.
>> Damn.
>> And at one point you had said 24 months
for Amber, which was right on the money.
And then you talked yourself out of it.
>> Well, because you know, women tend to
get less time.
>> They do. They do.
>> You know,
>> they do. They uh they have all the
benefits.
>> It really is a woman's world.
There's good 12 comments.
>> All right, we're talking credit card
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Stories involving credit cards at least.
And it's it's remiss if I don't do one
church story every episode. But I feel
like I've been pretty consistent with uh
with disparaging religious people at
least one time.
>> Horrible.
>> I'm not even saying bad things about uh
religion or religious people. But this
story happens to take place in a church
environment.
>> What do you know about Fort Wayne,
Indiana?
>> Nothing
>> really.
>> No. No.
>> I know two facts about Fort Wayne,
Indiana.
>> There's a military base, right?
>> That may be true. It's not one of the
two facts I know. But anytime you meet
someone from Fort Wayne, Indiana, you
can endear yourself to them by knowing
these two facts. Okay? And people from
Fort Wayne, Indiana, delightful. Okay?
It's worth your time to pull up these
two facts. First thing you say, Fort
Wayne, that's the location of Indiana's
largest indoor mall, isn't it? And they
go, "Yeah, you know that." Of everybody
knows that. And the other thing you
could say, "Fort Wayne? That's the
burial site of Johnny Apples Seed.
Why do you know this?
>> I because when I was in my 20s, I knew a
guy from Fort Wayne, Indiana, and he
used to say those two things all the
time. Yeah, I'm from Fort Wayne,
Indiana, home of Indiana's largest
indoor mall and the burial side of
Johnny Apples Seed. And it stuck in my
brain. And so when I started meeting
people from Johnny from Fort Wayne, I
begin bringing those things up and
they're immediately they fall in love
with me. They're like I'm like it's like
the it's an automatic rapport builder.
>> I didn't even know Johnny Apples Seed
was a real guy.
This, by the way, this is a say I feel
like this is very similar to your going
up to the counter and telling the uh the
the clerk at the counter for the the the
hotel, you know, you guys are so
underappreciative appreciated. You I
really it's the whole I'm going to do
that in 3 hours when I check into the
Hard Rock.
>> Listen, the the manipulation.
>> It's not manipulation, baby. It's ABC.
Always be charming.
>> Okay, come on.
>> Always be charming. If you have the
ability to brighten someone's day versus
not brighten someone's day, Matt Cox, as
a con man, you should know you should
brighten their day. Of course,
>> right? Because good things happen when
people like you.
>> Yes.
>> That's the confidence in con man. Why am
I telling you this?
>> Okay, come on.
>> First Presbyterian Church of Fort Wayne,
Indiana was founded in 1831
when Fort Wayne was still a frontier
town and it remains a thriving
congregation to this day.
kind of amazing almost. It's wonderful
really.
>> Yeah. Wonderful.
>> So since 2015, the church employed
37year-old Michelle Burks. We'll call
her Michelle. She was the financial
manager of this thriving church. She She
was keeping an eye on the money of the
church, right? They passed the basket.
>> Michelle want needs to make sure that
money is accounted for and deployed in a
way that's going to keep this ancient
church
>> thriving.
>> Thriving. She's she's uh she's got to be
trustworthy. Thank God.
>> She has a dirty secret though, Matt Cox.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> This is going to be shocking to you. She
had a crippling amount of credit card
debt.
>> Right.
>> Home shopping network.
>> Um and she felt
>> Amazon a lot of Amazon packages.
>> Yeah. No, I mean again, it happens to
people. I uh when I was 22, I had myself
some credit card debt. It was no fun and
it really feels like a like a hole that
you can't dig yourself out of. I love
getting that little ding on my shopper
account and I get to run that and I open
up the door and there's a little package
there. I love it. It's great toxicating.
It is wonderful.
>> It's intoxicating. And I don't know what
Michelle was spending the money on or
how she got herself in credit card debt,
but I know it created a tremendous
amount of pressure. And she felt
probably correctly that the only way
she's going to dig herself out of this
credit card debt is to begin stealing
from her employer.
>> God the God would want her to have Jesus
would want her to have that. I don't
even know how she rationalized this
theologically,
but I know that um that she began using
the church's bank account, which she had
control over to pay down her credit card
debt little by little. What would Jesus
do? Thousand here, thousand there. Uh
she's be paying down the debt. She's
going to be getting this albatross off
her shoulders.
Um after two years of chipping away at
the debt, she's finally clear of credit
card debt. it's done. And the uh she had
spent taken $400,000
of the church's money through direct
payments to her credit card uh account
from the church's bank account
electronically.
>> That's bad. It's a bad idea.
That's leaves electronic uh footprint.
That's a I was thinking cash. Pocket the
cash.
>> No, no, that would be too easy. No, this
is is done electronically. Yeah, you're
right. Digital footprint there. I think
that
most
I wonder what the pie chart is at a
church uh you know a normal Presbyterian
church in a perfectly reasonable town.
Um between cash in the collection plate
versus checks uh from the congregation
>> or credit cards. A lot of people just
auto credit now.
>> It just depends what year it is. I'm
sure QR code. Yeah.
>> At the church I go to now, they don't
even pass around the bucket.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. They just have an envelope you can
drop. Do they have the drop
>> envelope? They say I think they have
something by the door,
>> but there's a there's a QR code on on
the back of the seas and on the monitor.
>> Yeah, they do a ours that they have a
they do a little push.
>> Oh, yeah. It's a little It's a little
push.
>> I'm sort of surprised K's church is not
pushing. I I can't imagine. Uh
>> no, my guys are all on the push.
>> Yeah. Mo most most churches I've been
to, they do have the you do the song
service and then you have the someone
come up and take the offering. But uh
yeah, listen and uh the church we go to
which is hold on it's
>> it's church in Wesley Chapel. Um it's
funny cuz the the
>> which I know he thinks it's wonderful.
So like the head guy, he'll do the
pastor. Yeah. He'll do like Well, I grew
up
>> Catholic so I always want to say priest
>> or preacher minister or Yeah. Yeah. So
he he uh he does these videos where he's
like, you know, we're here in Jerusalem
and he and then then the next time you
go two two months later, he's here at
such and such. He's here. By the third
time, I I like lean into to Jess and I'm
like, I feel like we're donating this
guy's vacation,
>> funding his
>> funding a great life for this guy and
he's always here for his I'm the
congregation. I want you to know we're
here doing good work. We're doing God's
work. We're I don't know.
>> Yeah. like we're tracking Jesus's path
through.
>> Yeah, I don't know if Michelle was
stealing cash.
>> Okay,
>> it's totally possible, but that but it's
clearly not enough. But the pastor once
he called the FBI
>> Uhhuh.
>> was able to and the FBI were able to
quantify $400,000 that she had stolen
through electronic transfers from the
bank account of the church to pay down
her credit card. Right. That's all I
got. If she was stealing money and
buying pizza with it, uh I have no idea.
And I'm certainly not going to accuse
her of that on a uh popular true crime
podcast.
>> I'm gonna go with 30 months. No crim no
criminal history. 30 months.
>> We're not there yet. We're not there
yet.
>> I'm going with my gut from now on.
>> This is here's an interesting little
side thing. And uh and I the church had
employee dishonesty insurance. You ever
heard of this?
>> I mean I've heard of errors and
emissions, you know.
>> Similar similar. Yeah. I mean are these
are called fidelity loss insurance but
it's specifically
uh it's
>> for covers the specific thing
>> it's there to cover
>> admissions does too but anyway go ahead
>> yeah it's there again so I just did an
investigation for a doctor who got
ripped off and my investigative report
went to the insurance company because he
had employee dishonesty insurance and
they paid off and so uh so it's nice
because my fee helped him recover a lot
of money that was stolen and and his net
loss was Um, basically I guess just my
fee or whatever the um, what do you call
that? The amount you have to pay in an
insurance claim. The deductible.
>> Deductible. Yeah.
>> So the shameless shameless plug for uh,
for Tom Simon and uh,
>> Simon Investigations
>> Simon Investigations Simon Tom Simon
simoninvestigation.com.
>> If you get ripped off in a fraud, you
can contact Simon Investigations.com for
a free consultation. So employee
dishonesty insurance covers $250,000 of
the loss,
>> right? the loss to the church, then the
net loss would be 150,000. Um,
>> doesn't sound like they missed it
anyway.
>> You've been doing this for two years.
>> Business is booming.
>> Doesn't sound like they even missed the
200,000.
>> The Presbyterians support their church
quite nicely.
>> And now it's down to 150.
>> Mhm. Um,
>> it's hardly worth calling anybody,
>> right? So, um, so the FBI talks to her,
rolls right over, pleads guilty.
What do you think?
>> How much time is she going to do? I'm
going to go with
>> And does the fidelity loss insurance?
>> That's irrelevant.
>> Irrelevant.
>> It's irrelevant. She cuz she still owes
the money,
>> right?
>> She's told I mean it's still part of her
restitution. It's still going to be her
her law or you know the the loss is
still $400,000. Doesn't matter who paid
it.
>> And so your your analysis is correct
because the restitution ends up having
two line items. She owes $150,000 in
restitution to the church and she owes
$250,000 in restitution to the insurance
company that insured the loss.
Um, yeah, still not over over five
victims. Um, boy, but I'll bet you a US
attorney would go in and say that she
she every single person that put money
into that that the church or is a victim
and we're going to hit her with 250
victims. Oh, they're horrible. Okay. So,
anyway,
so anyway, uh, so she's got less than
five victims. She's got they're going to
hit her with sophisticated means and a
few other things. But yeah, I mean, I
still feel like she's got no criminal
hood. I still feel like 30 months. She
did this for two years for 400,000
bucks.
>> You know what the enhancement would be
though too? Uh um a charitable
institution. They might hit her with,
you know, how they give you like if you
steal from the government or a
charitable institution, they'll hit you
with that. I got that.
>> You did?
>> Yeah. I got hit with char.
>> What was your charity?
>> You know, I And I didn't even steal from
them. I I used it their name and
furtherance of their in furtherance of
my crime. I had a a salad
an ID. Mhm.
>> That said, I work for the Salvation Army
and I was taking surveys for the
Salvation Army.
>> This is how you gathered the information
from the bums.
>> Yes. From the homeless people. And I
would give them 20 bucks. So, it's like
I'm giving them money. I'm helping them.
You are the charity.
>> And but you know, the the judge said, "I
feel like you disparage their name." He
doesn't say anything about disparage
their name in the thing. Says if I if I
use a charitable institution to take
money from people, that's the example
they give. And he disagreed. I'm I'm
torn on this issue because I like you
personally, but I found what you what
you did beyond the pale.
>> I feel bad. I told him I feel bad.
>> All right. Well, good. Well, then that's
fine. That's riding everything.
>> That's worth a couple months.
>> So, okay. So, uh yeah. I think I feel
like 30 months. You guys I feel like
you're you've it's obviously worse than
that. But I'm going to say 30 months cuz
that's my gut and I don't think she has
a criminal history. And even though I
think there's an enhancement there,
maybe the 30 month that seems fair to
me. 30 month I keep going off of fair.
That's just bad. The irony is that had
she just declared bankruptcy, her credit
card debt would be wiped out. Yet, you
cannot declare bankruptcy, as you've
learned, to wipe out criminal
restitution. Yes. So, that's a debt that
will hang over her head forever,
>> right?
>> After she gets done serving for 30
months in prison.
>> Oh, yes.
>> I take I'm sorry. 27 months, but you're
still in the ball.
>> I'm still good. 27. Yeah, 27 months.
>> Yeah. 27. Pretty pumped there.
>> 27 months in prison.
>> Good job.
>> Two for four.
>> Nice.
>> Good job. You have any experience with
the US Postal Inspection Service?
>> I've met some guys that were were
investigated by the US Postal Service.
>> They're a shockingly good agency. It's
It's a weird agency because it has a
weird name.
>> It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing
when you go and you have to say, you
know, the the the mailman arrested me
and they're like, "No, I had a gun and
everything." It's like, come on. That's
not a real thing. I got to say I I
worked joint cases with many different
federal agencies when I was an FBI agent
and I found the US Postal Inspection
Service to be the most professional and
talented among them other than the FBI.
>> Yeah, I didn't have that experience.
>> Listen, you know who is the most
talented and who who is very very
professional?
>> Who?
>> Secret Service.
>> Yeah,
>> they were very professional.
>> They're solid. The problem with Secret
Service is that they have uh when as
from a law enforcement perspective when
I would partner up with Secret Service,
they would work very hard and do a very
good job and then they would be called
away for two or three months to walk
Chelsea Clinton to school and the
protective detail they keep getting
called away from.
>> There's not a lot of them.
>> Yeah. I think there's only 2,000 agents
in the entire agency as opposed to
12,000 FBI agents. Yeah.
So, the US Postal Inspection Service,
mail fraud is their thing, but they also
kind of do the internal policing of uh
US Postal employees, like mailmen.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. 34year-old
I can't believe this is his name. Rashad
Stolen.
>> Nice.
>> That was his guy's name.
>> Stolen.
>> Stolen. His last name was Stolen. Was a
mail carrier out of the bicesentennial
post office in Los Angeles's Fairfax
District.
and he had really good instincts for
what the content of the mail was that he
was delivering. He could almost like he
had x-ray vision. He could tell if he
was delivering someone their a check or
their EBT card. You know, EBT like their
it the old days they would send you a
welfare check. Now, they give you like a
debit card that you can swipe to use the
um the the money preloaded on that debit
card for your welfare payments or food
stamps or whatever, basically. But he he
knew what the envelopes were when he was
delivering them to the the presumably
poor people in his neighborhood um
there. And what he was doing, it's going
to shock you, Matt Cox. He was taking
that [ __ ] and putting it in his pocket.
>> I I Okay,
>> maybe you saw that coming.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I kind of figured that.
Spoiler alert.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, he had this magical spiritual
force to see what was in these envelopes
uh by just feeling them. Um and once he
had the check or card, he would then
create fake IDs, more probably more for
the checks than the cards, but sometimes
people make a show ID um to draw upon
the money in that. and he recruited
friends uh people out there who would be
the faces on the fake IDs
>> to then negotiate meaning cash or or you
know the or deposit into their accounts
these checks in exchange for a little
bit of money
>> right so
>> okay
>> so he's he's stealing the EBT card but
then he's kind of enlisting a bunch of
dwarves and elves in his community to be
the money mules to negotiate these
stolen checks over a 4-year period he
was able to steal 1.6 $6 million
in other people's welfare and food stamp
benefits, the EBT cards, and stolen
checks. Um, and he used a lot of that
money to take luxury vacations.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Um, okay. That's all that's is that what
you got?
>> Well, no, no, buddy. We're getting We're
just getting started. So, uh, the US
every now and then I pause to allow the
host of the show to kind of just weigh
in and and react. What I'm wondering
about is if
>> it's a style
>> if he could make fake IDs is that then
what is did they go open bank accounts
to deposit the checks or they putting
them you it it sounded to me like you
were saying like they were putting in
their own accounts or did they open up
bank you think they open up
>> No, I think what they're probably doing
is going to check retail check cashing
places. Okay.
>> Cash checks and um
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because I mean I'd go open a bank
account and just deposit them in the
bank account and then remove the money
that way. You could do that. The banks
have a little more do a little more due
diligence than like the check cashing
place in the corner. I don't know how
the what my my impression from reading
the court file on this is that there
were variety of means being used to
monetize the stolen checks and cards.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Um US Postal Inspection Service begins
kind of, you know, dealing like they got
enough complaints that my EBT card and
my check did not arrive. The state of
California is like, "Well, we sent that
shit." and uh and so they were almost
almost able to figure out the route on
where the point of compromise was.
>> And so they immediately take begin
taking a look at Rashad Stolen
>> and um and then they begin like talking
to some of the people who negotiated
these checks. They were able to kind of
figure out who was behind the
negotiation of the checks, the little
people who were receiving pennies on the
dollar for doing this.
>> Crash test dummies is what you we we
call them in the in the fraud industry.
>> Yeah. Well, you might be surprised to
learn that many of them cooperated
against Rashad stolen.
>> That's not true. What about the code?
>> Um, and some of them actually showed
their text messages um to the postal
inspectors. And there was one really
good one with Rashad saying, "I need
you, man. I'm trying to retire."
[Laughter]
Well, I'm going to break it to you
gently, Matt Cox. Rashad got his
retirement wish.
He was charged with fraud, plead guilty,
lost his sweet sweet job as a mail
carrier, and he was get he had an all
expenses paid early retirement to
federal prison. How much time do you
give a Rashad Stolen?
I'm going to say 84 months. Why 84
month? I don't know.
>> 1.6 million.
>> Yeah. I don't I feel like that's too
much. Really? That's too much time. I'm
going to say, you know what? I'm going
to go with six. I'm gonna go with 60
months. I'm gonna go with 60 months.
>> Really? For over a million bucks?
>> Yeah.
>> You enlisting all these people?
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> 60 months.
>> Yeah. You seem really secure with your
60-month gift.
>> I hate it when you do this.
>> There's no Again, sometimes you waver,
but there's no wavering here.
Is it Can you see it?
>> No, I can't see it. I don't know where
you're
>> Okay. Not I'm just I'm just curious.
You're really really good at this.
>> Um, but you're sticking with 60.
>> I am. I'm
>> You're playing poker. It looks like you
just looked at your poker cards and
you're like calling a bluff.
>> Yeah, I've got to say I'm cuz I think
you got 72 unsuited down there.
>> Um I Let me think. Let me think.
>> I'm not coughing on you off. I just want
to make sure. I want you to be
comfortable with your guess. I'm not I'm
60 may be an excellent guess.
>> I I think 60 is I think 60 is is
>> maybe it's maybe if I was to say
anything, I'd say higher than 60, but
let's say 60.
>> How much higher than 60? I mean, I would
say I've jumped at probably 84 between
60 and 84, but let's say let's say 60.
I'm not You're not gonna It's the devil
in the deep blue sea.
>> No, it's it's manipulation. You're
making me feel uncomfortable about I'm
going to say 60. I don't even care if I
lose. I'm saying 60. My See, my gut was
84, though.
>> Yeah. You know,
>> my gut was 84.
>> That SAT test, your first instinct. But
I'm not telling you I'm not telling you
what to do.
>> But I'm also thinking, did you know that
federal employees like like uh male
people like they can have felonies? you
know, a lot of a lot of employees in the
federal government like they don't. So,
he could have he could have a criminal
history, right? He could work for
>> I wonder if they'd hire you as a
mailman, but anyway. So,
>> seems like a real position of trust.
>> And yeah, it does. Um, and he uh he I
don't know how many people he was in
charge of. It's definitely they're going
to say sophisticated means. Uh they're
going to say
I still feel like one point. I'm going
to go 84 months. You're going to go with
84 months.
>> 84 months.
>> God, you were so comfortable at 60
though.
>> Listen, man.
>> 84 was my my gut reaction. My my my
>> It was That was your first guess. And
then you went to 60. You kind of talked
yourself into 60. And then you were so
secure at 60. It was like you were not
going to budge off a 60 for all the tea
in China.
>> You You're probably very very good at
that at getting people to confess,
weren't you?
>> I am very good at that.
>> Okay. 84.
>> 84 months.
>> 84 months.
>> Is that your final answer? We are
beating this dead horse.
>> 84 months.
>> 84 months. The correct answer.
>> 66 months,
>> [ __ ]
>> Oh my god. You are a mark.
>> How close am I? Is I was close enough? I
still think I'm probably close to 84.
>> Oh, no. No, you're not even close. Well,
no. You said it's got to be 20%. What?
Plus 12. That's 13 + 66 is 79.
>> 1.2. What? 66 * 1.2 is the math
equation.
>> 66 * 1.2 is 79.2.
>> Just missed it, buddy. Some [ __ ]
man. That's some This is some [ __ ]
>> Tom's playing poker over here. He's
pulling his cards back.
>> [ __ ] I'm playing 3D chess.
>> So,
>> it's good. Hey, Tom, just just, you
know, we want it close. We want it to
be, you know, five out of 10. Where am I
at?
>> Six out of 12. So you know how to play
the cards to make it people wait till
the very end.
>> Where am I at? I don't like this.
>> You are two You are two out of five. So
you were you were 50%. Now you're 40%.
So
>> okay thing is you were there when you
guessed 60
right there.
>> God, you talk yourself out of it.
>> I didn't talk myself out of it. You
talked me out of it.
>> I didn't. You could have picked anything
you want. You have free will. Were you a
magazine reader back in the magazine
era? Would you like pick up a magazine
and read a magazine?
>> No, but I wasn't in prison. I was I was
a magazine.
>> Yeah. Like were magazines like a popular
medium to kind of like read whatever
interesting stories and things that
>> because they uh you know cuz they had
like true crime stories and stuff and
you know these guys are rapper. They
want to be rappers. They're reading.
>> What were the hot magazines in prison?
Um, yeah. Like it's funny too because
this is when they had the actual
magazine still. They were phasing them
out,
>> but you know, Rolling Stone, GQ, Wired,
>> I Maxim when I first went in and then it
faded out to
>> They would let you have Max because Max
had sexy girls in it.
>> Yeah, but it wasn't they weren't they
weren't nudes. So
>> Oh, really? That was the the bikini.
>> Yeah.
>> Interesting.
>> They don't like that.
>> You ever heard of a magazine called
Mother Jones?
>> No. I don't feel like Mother Jones. What
is Mother Jones? Is it a
>> Mother Jones is a very popular very
leftwingle leaning kind of magazine that
does investigative journalism and long
articles and stuff like that. A lot of
the articles are in, you know, the it
was a very popular magazine. Um it's not
it's not my thing. I've never read an
episode an issue of Mother Jones. How
about New Republic?
>> I've heard of New Republic. Yes.
>> Yeah. It's kind of also a very a
left-leaning but not crazy. Mother Jones
is kind of over in like the hippie
territory. Okay. Okay. Uh, New Republic,
I think, is is a more thoughtful kind of
political and current events magazine.
Lots of long kind of opinion pieces and
stuff like that. The founder of um of
both of these magazines is a guy named
Wyn McCormick.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um, and I'm going to tell you a
story right now about what happened to
Win McCormack. And the story I'm about
to tell you is the largest single victim
fraud in Oregon history.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Win McCormack a he's a uh American
publisher, editor, political activist,
writer based in Oregon. Okay. He uh was
born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
Born rich. Uh he's the heir to a
Midwestern banking fortune and he has
since channeled his kind of financial
energy into uh kind of popular leftwing
journalist type causes like Mother Jones
magazine, New Republic and all that.
>> It's a limousine liberal
>> quite literally. Do you know the story?
>> No.
>> Okay.
Why is there a limousine in
>> Yeah, completely. It's about the limo
driver. Um he earned his bachelor in
arts and government at Harvard, a master
of fine arts and creative writing at the
University of Oregon. And he was so rich
that he had a full-time limo driver.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Literally a limousine.
>> No, I just said that because that was
that's like a that's something that
people say like that's that's these rich
liberals.
>> Well, this is the this is the guy who is
the um the poster boy for that because
he had a a limo driver. Um they were
contractors technically. Um, Sergey
Lebedeno was the driver and his wife
Galina Leedeno kind of ran the limo
business, but I think he was like their
only client. I don't know if they were
doing proms and stuff also. Um, port
it's I guess they had a car service.
They probably had multiple stuff in
Portland. And they land this wealthy
client win back in 2007.
And um, the company and they spent years
chauffeering him around town pretty much
anywhere he wanted to go.
>> Okay.
>> Kind of nice. I've never really had a
chauffeer other than like from point A
to point B to the airport and stuff like
that. But right, wouldn't it be nice
where every time you wanted to go to a
restaurant or a store, you just like
called your guy like he who heat up the
limo and they took care of it?
>> Uber.
>> Uber. But yeah, imagine that. But being
able to afford going to an Uber
anywhere, not having to wait for the
car, not
>> it's always there and you never have to
look for parking and you're not dealing
with the app or whether the guy
deserves, you know, do I tip him now? Do
I have to, you know, five stars? You got
a Sergey Lebideno driving you. No
problem limo.
>> No problem limo. That should be the name
of the limo company. So he would pay for
his limousine service using his AMX
card. Okay. In fact, he was using them
so much and so close to a full-time that
that the Lebenos had his AMX card on
file and all and they just had to hit
it. they would just anytime they were
charging him for what you know whether
it was a day rate or a trip rate or
whatever they the deal was at that
window of time they would just hit his
MX bill and his MX card he wouldn't need
to provide it again and again and again
or anything like that and um and they
got the the vibe from him that he was so
wealthy that uh that he was never even
really looking at his MX bill he wasn't
paying attention to how much he was
paying the Lebenos for these rides
>> right
>> right and um and somehow along the way
They they figured out either through
logic or conversation that he has his
Ammex bill on autopay. So, right. So,
you know, you and I
>> You're not even He's not even reviewing
the bill. It's just automatically
paying.
>> Yeah. It's just they're the American
Express every month just debits his bank
account for the amount of money that he
had spent on his MX bill that month and
he goes on with his life. And all the
credit card companies, including Ammex,
are kind of pushing you into a paperless
thing. They're not even sending you a
statement. In fact, some credit cards
are making you pay to get a paper
statement sent every month and which
because they want you just to have it on
the app.
>> And if maybe you're a rich guy who's
running a couple magazines and uh and
enjoying daddy's money,
>> you're not even uh bothering to look at
that. You're not downloading the app and
saying like, "Oh, how much did I spend
at Kudoba or whatever." Yeah. So, um
>> Sergey and Galina,
>> that's like Chipotle.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah, that's like a Yeah, no, no, they
do. They have them here. I think I have
seen them.
>> Yeah, it's good.
>> It's got a big queue, right? And then
Yeah.
>> Enjoy Kudoba.
>> Okay, I'll try I'll check it out.
>> Kudoba should be a sponsor of the Mad
[ __ ] show.
>> Sergey and Galina, they saw an
opportunity. They saw a vulnerability in
the uh in Wind's handling of the AMX.
And they started running Wind's MX card
through their point of sale system
several times a day. Started out small,
charges between $1,000 and $4,000. And
you know what happened? It went through.
Everything was fine.
>> Nothing happened. Nobody noticed
anything. No one called them on it.
>> They became emboldened.
>> For the month of April 2022, for
example, they hit his MX card 225 times
in one month for $600,000.
>> But okay, but he's he well, he's not
spending even close to 600,000. So
anyway, okay. Yeah.
>> Right. They were pigs at the trough.
>> Yeah. This is Yeah.
>> Right. The
>> this is pure stupidity. the swiping of
his card through their point of sale
system had no relation whatsoever to the
amount of rides they were uh
>> it's not like they're padding the bill
by 15 or 20% this is [ __ ] 600 800
times
>> any sense that these charges are
tethered to his reality is just out the
window right
>> um the overcharging of his AMX card
think about this continued for 17 years
what how do you not I mean I That's
>> he never does a periodic audit of his
stuff. I mean, nobody ever
>> Somebody did in year 17 of this thing.
And um by that point when someone
realized that there was a problem here
when his accountant or whatever um sees
that they realized that Sergey and
Galina had stolen $34 million
from win.
>> Wow.
>> Let that sink in.
>> Wow.
Your limo driver is making has made $34
million over the course of 17 years just
driving you around to Whole Foods.
>> What does that accountant do when he
he's like he's triple checking this.
He's like, "This has got to be wrong."
>> All right, so
>> Sergey uh Sergey and Galina, how' they
spend that kind of money? You must be
You might be asking.
>> They were living like millionaires
themselves. They bought 14 homes.
>> People are so stupid.
>> Seven vehicles. Uh-huh.
>> They were living the life of the
wealthy. All funded by W's Ammex card.
>> That's a That's a hell of a drive
driver.
>> Single largest victim fraud in Oregon
history.
FBI Portland office opens the case.
Pretty easy case. They arrest him on
fraud charges, both of them,
>> right? I mean, she's the one in the back
office. He's the one who's driving.
They're co-conspirators.
They plead guilty and uh FBI is in the
process of seizing their homes and
assets with the money going to pay, you
know, toward Wind's restitution. But you
know what and I know that's pennies on
the dollar, right? You're never going to
get full value for that.
>> Um even though we have two defendants,
um they both got the same sentence.
That's that's the clue. Okay.
>> And I think we're going to assume that
there's no criminal history for either
of them. Astronomical amount of money,
though.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right.
>> I'm thinking
>> how much time do they get, Matt? I mean,
I'm thinking like the the max wire fraud
is 20 years.
>> It is. That is the max wire fraud.
>> Um, you know, sometimes they don't like
to give the max max. Maybe he get maybe
18 years a piece.
>> Yeah. Now, again, I think you're
confusing two things. I'm not saying
you're wrong that the maximum sentence
in the statute is 20 years, but we're
still dealing with the sentencing
guidelines range
>> and that that dollar amount range gets
bigger and bigger and bigger and wider
and wider. So, like the difference
between a $2 million fraud and a $10
million fraud in this in the federal
sentencing guidelines gives you the
exact amount of time. I'm not giving you
a clue here as much as I'm saying that
you're getting hung up in your brain on
the statutory maximum penalty, which has
no relation whatsoever to the federal
sentencing guidelines for fraud. We can
go with 18 years. I'm not telling you
not to, but I just wanted to make sure
that you understand that factor.
>> Yeah, I'm going to say 18 years still.
After your last experience with me,
you're uh you're you're really sticking
to your guns on this thing. There's no
getting you off of 18 years.
>> No, 18 years.
>> All right. Well, you can't say that I
didn't try.
>> Okay. How much?
>> Because they both received 57 months in
prison. Are you [ __ ] serious?
>> Yeah.
>> That is ridiculous. Low.
>> That is low. I mean, I you know how many
I I'm ready. I'm ready to go right now
for limo. Start over. driving an Uber.
>> No, for for for 34 million, I'll go do
five years right now.
>> You know, and I know that's not true.
>> You know, and I know that that all the
tea in China isn't going to put you back
inside for the amount of time that
you've lost.
>> 34 million. I could I could pay my
restitution off.
>> Literally Peter to pay Paul. Yeah.
>> Have some money left over.
>> It's a big one
>> in agree. That sentence does seem low.
That does seem that seems outrageous.
>> At some point, pull it up on uh on
Google, the sentencing guidelines ranges
get so wide so fast. And um and 34
million while it's the richest of the
orient for you and I, it probably falls
in the same category as 100 million.
That's outrageous. So,
>> and there I mean there's been frauds out
there with billion dollar losses when
you take a look at like stock stuff.
>> Yeah. Well, this guy uh named uh Ron
Wilson that ran a $57 million Ponzi
Well, there was 57 million at loss. It
was a over $und00 million Ponzi scheme.
>> Uh he got 19 and a half years for 57
million in loss.
>> Yeah.
>> No criminal history.
>> Mhm.
>> Now granted, there was hundreds of
victims.
>> So, but that's really the only thing
that I see different. That's what I was
basing my because this guy had no
criminal history. He had no The only
difference between that and theirs and
his ran for
>> 10 15 years.
>> Yeah.
>> The only difference is the amount of
victims
>> and the dollar amount is slightly.
That's why it just went down slightly.
>> I think sometimes the judges um will
almost try to punish the victim by not
by saying, "Listen, fine win. Like these
guys are bad. They stole from you for 17
years." But at some point, doesn't the
victim have some culpability to keep
their eye on the store?
>> Right.
>> I I'm just guessing, you know, the the
guidelines don't account for that, but I
think it's just the reality is that um
he probably didn't come off to the judge
as a sympathetic victim.
>> Dvaling off of that, do you think it's
easier to steal from rich people or poor
people?
>> I mean, I don't think poor people have
anything really to steal. uh or or much
to steal.
>> I've had a lot of I've had a lot of poor
victims
>> really. I would I mean for how much
though? But I mean I would say I don't
know. I I would assume I would assume
rich people, right?
>> Yeah. I don't know. I mean certainly the
the payday is there for rich people.
>> Yeah. I'm not sure what you would get or
focusing on on
>> for poor people. You need to figure out
a way that they can monetize their
assets like like go I had a lot of cases
especially in Hawaii where it was invest
in this Ponzi scheme. Well, I don't have
any money. Go out and get a home equity
line of credit on your home and use that
to um you know, maybe in that home's
been in their house for generations and
stuff like that.
>> Um I was thinking about that thought
about stealing from rich people when I
thought about the story of Scott Mason.
Uh he had a company called Rubicon
Wealth Management in suburban
Philadelphia. And his clients were doing
really well uh when they would invest
through Rubicon. Um, what his clients
didn't know is that Scott was actually
pilfering money from their investments
for decades.
>> Is this a a a true Ponzi scheme or is he
actually investing the money?
>> Um, I I think some people needed their
money back at some point and he would um
>> use new investor.
>> I do think some investors were um I
think some money was um actually being
invested, but he's uh taking it off the
top. That's my impression of how this
one worked. Um, and basically he's wire
transferring client money into accounts
he controls, but not all the client
money, but a good bit of it. Um, but his
his uh his clients, he was very clear.
He only wanted high netw worth
individuals.
>> Right.
>> Right. The Matt Coxes and the Tom Simons
of the world, Scott would not allow us
to park his car.
>> Okay.
>> Right. He wanted high netw worth
individuals. Um, and they and he ran in
their circles, right? He's going to
their kids' weddings. He's part of the
same country club. was swinging a golf
club with these guys on Saturday. Those
were his people and they considered him
family. And as a result, I think a lot
of them took their eye off the ball.
Over an eight-year period, Scott was
able to successfully skim from their
investments $17 million.
>> Okay?
>> Right? But this is spread over about 13
clients.
Okay? You got the numbers in your head?
And he used that money for exotic
foreign vacations,
country club membership dues. That's his
crew. And an investment he made where he
purchased a miniature golf course on the
Jersey Shore.
Had to be had to be just like a license
to print money. A miniature golf course
on the Jersey Shore.
>> Um, one client started taking a look at
their books and it just didn't make
sense. They should have been making more
money. The balance in their account
should have been more than it was. And
um and so he started stealing money from
another client to pay that guy back. Oh,
there was an accounting error. I'm so
sorry. And um but that triggered this
domino effect and eventual discovery of
the fraud.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> And um so the clients notified the
Securities and Exchange Commission who
regulates investment professionals. A
lot of people think the Securities and
Exchange Commission has the ability to
arrest people and put them in prison,
but that's not true.
>> Right.
>> Right. I worked many cases with the SEC.
They're very, very talented attorneys
and investigators, but they have no
criminal authority whatsoever. They're a
regulatory agency. The most they'll ever
do for you is to maybe find you, take
away your license, and tell you under no
circumstances should you steal money
from people again,
>> right?
>> Which is kind of a toothless agency for
for as much talent as they are.
>> But if they then then they'll take their
findings and hand it to the FBI.
>> And I loved those cases, Matt Cox,
because basically they did all the work.
They handed it to me and all I needed to
do is reinter the people uh the victims.
And so, um,
>> I've had we've had a couple SEC where
during the investigation, an FBI agent
would actually sit in
>> Mhm.
>> on the Yeah.
>> Uh, on the depositions and stuff.
>> It's interesting because they're a
regulatory and civil agency. They never
want to call it a joint investigation
with the FBI. They call them parallel
investigations. Even though like I'm
sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with them.
I'm talking to them every day. We're
sharing evidence with each other.
>> They they can't do a joint investigation
because they're not a criminal
investigative agency. Hey, we're doing
our thing. we're doing our civil
investigation. You're doing your
criminal one at the next cubicle. And
it's funny the way they acted, but the
semantics was always very important to
the SEC. Another thing about old Scott,
and you'll be shocked to learn this, he
was not paying taxes on the money he
stole. So, they looped in a third agency
in addition to the FBI and the SEC, and
that would be the IRS.
>> Bingo. So, the IRS joined the party as
well. Um, Scott was charged with fraud
and tax evasion. He's also being sued by
the clients he decimated. Scott's 66
years old right now.
>> Weird twist to the story.
Scott had a father named Melvin.
In 1976,
Melvin went to prison for an identical
scheme. Is that crazy?
>> And then here we are 50some years later
and his son is going to prison for doing
the exact scheme. The uh the apple
doesn't fall far from the tree, Matt
Cox.
>> No.
>> Yeah. Given that reality
in the $17 million loss, 13 very wealthy
victims,
let's assume he has no criminal history
other than what was handed down to him
genetically from his his thieving
father. How much time is Scott Mason
going to get in prison? How much time
did he was he sentenced to? Again, also
remember he's 66 years old. So if that
number gets big, he may never see the
light of day again. I don't know if the
judges think about that in the
sentencing or not.
>> I bouncing between 10 and 12 years.
Let's say let's say let's say 12 years
because a bunch of victims get up and
and go to the stand and cry. And he took
my life savings. He
>> he was family. He used to golf with me.
He went to my daughter's wedding at Cox.
Yeah.
>> And of course there's more than five.
What is it? Five. What does it jump from
five to to 20 victims to five to 10
victim? Anyway, I don't remember.
>> So, yeah. So, he's sophisticated means
he's got all this stuff. He's got all
this stuff. So, I'm going to say
>> I'm going to say 12 I'm going to say 10
years. He didn't go to trial. He plead
guilty. I'm assuming.
>> Yeah.
>> So, let's say guilty. Okay. So, let's
say 10 years.
>> 10 years is 120 months for those of you
who like months.
>> 120 months.
>> Final answer.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. to move this thing along.
>> I'm not gonna
>> You could move me off the 120. He
already knows. I could I could say I
could have a subtle threem minute
conversation to have you say 25 years.
>> This is like PlayStation. I can hit the
button up or I can hit the button down
to move you in your very manipul your
your brain. But I'm going to let you
stick with 120 months because the
correct answer is 97 months in prison.
>> Okay.
>> And I think you're about 1.8.
>> No, no, it' be 1 point 97 times 1.2. 2.
>> I think you just missed
>> 97 * 1.2 is
>> I think you just missed it.
>> 116 months.
>> That's some [ __ ] That's some
[ __ ]
>> Just missed it. Have you ever received a
notification from your bank that you've
been scammed or that someone's using
your credit card or has dipped into your
bank account?
>> I mean, from my bank.
No, but I get the ones. Uh, no. No, I
but but I get the ones from uh I get the
ones everybody else gets where it's kind
of like Google's like somebody's use
your password, you know, click on, you
know, stop. I'm not clicking on some
kind of scam. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But every now and then I I'll use
my uh I don't use my ATM card or my
debit card much at all uh other than to
take out cash when I'm going gambling.
the uh but the um my credit card all the
time is getting flagged and like you
know I'll be at like a gas station in
another state and I'll use it and and
I'll get and it will like reject it and
I'll get an immediate text message
saying hey someone's using your bank
account in I've had that happen in
Phoenix you know is it you know yes or
no and stuff like that it's kind of
interesting to me how the algorithm
knows what your normal pattern of
behavior is fact when I travel overseas
I'll often call my credit card and say
hey I'm going to Iceland next week can
you make a notation So, if I start
swiping this thing in Iceland, it's not
going to get rejected.
>> I need this thing to be working.
>> That would be kind of melancholy to be
trapped in Iceland with nowhere to
sleep. Um, woman named Mabel. There's a
town in Texas called FAR. P H A R R
Texas. Woman named Mabel. I'm going to
assume she's an older lady. I don't have
a whole lot of demographics on her.
>> Is this because of the name Mabel?
>> Yeah. I'm going to go out on a limb.
>> Her name was Margaret. You'd feel like
>> or Tiffany. Yeah. Stripper. Um, one day
she gets a call from a man who
identifies himself as a representative
of the US Department of Justice.
Maple sits up straight, right? Yes, sir.
What can I do for you? The man on the
phone tells her that her bank account
has been compromised. Oh my god. By
scammers.
and he said, "Listen, we need to
withdraw the entire balance of your bank
account in cash and then help you and
we're going to help you establish a new
account that has not been compromised
before you lose any money." And she's
like, "Oh my god, thank you. This is
terrifying. I've heard about this in the
AP newsletter. I've heard that there's
people out there who can break into your
bank account and steal it. Thank you so
much, Department of Justice. I voted for
the right party."
>> She's a trusting soul, so she withdraws
$150,000
in cash over a few days. Mhm.
>> Okay. Going into her bank, she was
directed on the phone by the government
man not to tell her bank the reason she
was withdrawing the cash so the
investigation into the bad guys wouldn't
be compromised. Madcock.
>> Okay.
>> You get it?
>> Yeah.
>> Mabel's practically a secret agent at
this point.
>> Yeah.
>> Once she has all the money, the man from
the government came to her house and
took the money to get keep it safe
and she never heard from him again.
That's shocking.
>> Yeah. 150 grand. Mabel's entire life
savings. She thought she was doing the
right thing. She thought she was helping
the government catch some scammers and
it's beginning to look like she might
have been scammed herself.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So, Mabel contacts her bank and
tells the story and the banker is like,
"Yeah." And calls the FBI.
>> Okay.
Once this lands on the FBI agents desk
in Texas, he recognizes this as a fraud,
of course, but he also recognizes this
as part of a wave of similar crimes
happening throughout Texas. This is
happening again and again and again to
people in Texas with pretty much the
same facts. The FBI had a case open on
this and begins to trace the scam back
to a call center in India.
>> No.
>> Yeah. Yeah. In India, there are call
centers that exist solely for the
purpose of ripping off Americans
and um and they tie it to dozens of
other cases across the nation targeting
senior citizens with cumulative losses.
This is just what's proven of $6
million. What's the problem? The problem
is that India is kind of outside the
reach of the FBI. It's not like me as a
former FBI agent could hop on a plane to
New Delhi, go to the address, knock on
the doors, and start putting people in
handcuffs. I have no authority over
there. Mhm.
>> And the government of India doesn't seem
particularly interested in stopping
these call centers.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> Ripping off rich Americans
>> is not a a priority.
>> But we have this nagging problem. The
government man who went to her house,
the bag man, who was that? Right.
>> Right.
>> And so that's the way that's what the
FBI's focus was. The case agents on this
began focusing on who was that person
begins taking a look at cell phone data
and cameras and stuff like that and they
identify who it is. Moy Moyudin
Muhammad,
a citizen of India living legally in
Austin, Texas.
And so he was arrested as part of this
wire fraud conspiracy. They got him.
They got the bag man.
>> Right.
>> Okay. How how much did this whole Okay,
go ahead.
>> No, this is you're you're getting ready
to ask the right question, right? So
they begin taking a look into Moadin
Muhammad talking to the victims. Here's
a uh a photo spread which is the Can you
Do you see the government man here who
came to your house? Ethel and Ethel
would say I believe number two was the
government man who came to your house.
It was Moadine. They're able to tag him
with $900,000 in losses in money that he
picked up from senior citizens in Texas.
Okay. He is only keeping looking at his
bank account 10 to 15% of the money that
he collects as his fee. The rest of it's
going to his bosses in India at the call
center.
>> Right. So,
>> so there's a lot of numbers here that
I'm throwing at you, Matt Cox. But what
we're talking about is we got Mabel
who's out 150,000 bucks. We got a crime
wave with about $6 million in losses
coming from this call center in India.
Then we have Moadine who collects
$900,000 of the money, but probably only
got to keep, let's say, a h 100red,000
of that money for himself.
>> Um,
>> that's irrelevant.
Well, the he's an Indian citizen, so no
matter how much time you give him, he's
getting sent to India at the end of
this. So, restitution.
>> I thought he was legal. Oh, so he's not
a he's legally here,
>> right? He's a citizen of India living
legally. Got it. He's either here on a
visa of some kind or a a lawful
permanent resident in the US, which
ain't all that permanent to be a felony,
>> especially under the current the current
political. I was going to say,
>> um, well, that is a lot. I How many
victims do you know?
>> Um,
how many victims can we attribute to
him?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, I don't know that number, but let's
say five or 10, you know, that I mean,
>> probably a hell of a lot more than they
were able to prove up.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, because if the lady picks the
black guy in the picture instead of
Moadine, uh, you in the photo spread,
that case, you can't tag him with that
victim. But they're they're pretty solid
on the amount of money he got. Yeah.
>> And they're pretty solid on the amount
of money he sent and they're pretty
solid on the amount of losses caused in
Texas by this particular ring.
>> So you're saying he got did he get hit
with 6 million or just the 900,000?
>> I'm not telling you. I'm telling you
that the judge had all those facts and
the judge got to decide how much to
sentence this guy knowing that after the
US government and the US taxpayer has to
pay for this guy's care and feeding,
he's going back to India. Mhm.
>> And
>> um
>> nothing to seize.
>> Yeah. And I was thinking, but I I'm I'm
sure they're not thrilled that he was
pretending to be a federal agent.
>> Yeah. Probably that's not a plus.
>> No, that's not I wouldn't if I was
>> Yeah, that's that's in the uh the debit
column, not the credit column.
>> Yeah, if I was in the if I was in that
that would be particularly upsetting to
me.
So, how much time are you going to have
saddled the US taxpayers with this guy's
uh care and feeding in a federal prison
before you send him back to India? Mad
Cox,
>> 78 months,
>> talk to me.
>> No, I'm not talking to you anymore.
>> All right, because that makes for a
really good podcast.
[Music]
I think um I think 70 I think uh because
I think he let's say somewhere between
the two
you know a million to six million let's
say it's whatever you know I don't know
even if it's a million 6 million if it
was a million
I think it's a big I I think that these
are vulnerable victims I think they're
they're elder you know they're elderly
that's why they are they're vulnerable
victims I think there's more than
whatever probably 10 of them
>> um I think He pretended to be law
enforcement, which I have a I think
that's a that's a probably a huge it I
if I was doing the making the sentencing
guidelines, I'd be a huge
>> You'd be offended by that.
>> I would be offended by that because,
you know, I just feel like there's some
kind of like, you know, I hate to say
this, like you're already you're already
defrauding people, but I mean that's
you're really head that's really over
the line.
>> Agree.
>> Um because it gives you such latitude.
it puts you in such a position of of
power over people by saying, "Hey," by
flashing a badge or saying, "I'm with
that." Then they immediately most people
just step in the line
>> and and so I think it's it's extremely
uh um that there should be an extreme
penalty for that. Um what else? I think
uh yeah, I think let's say let's say
because I don't know if it's six, I
don't know if it's a million. I don't
know what they attributed to him. So
let's say somewhere in the middle three.
Uh
yeah, plus he's not a citizen. You're
here. You're here. You came here to help
rob people.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I I just in general I think 70
I think 78 months is reasonable. It's
probably if he was a US citizen and a
few things it might have been
>> a couple three years, four years.
>> Does party feel like he's being
scapegoed uh for this giant call center
in India that will never have to face
justice and but we c we caught the
courier like like the drug courier in a
in a giant cartel. But I feel like he's
working with them and the judge knows
even if the judge says
>> how about this? I'm not convinced that
he was the guy on the phone. They never
prove that.
>> Oh, so he's there just what think he's
the guy who shows up. They have a call
center who's dealing with the people,
right? That's the way his that's the way
his lawyer's going to pitch it.
>> I think he was is he went there and he
didn't this. Well, I mean, if that's the
case, then yeah, he probably gets
>> two years or three years. I'm not I'm
not trying to influence you, but I'm
saying that there that there's a call
center in India for a reason. The people
who are calling the people the victims
have to be the people in the call
center, right? Otherwise, why is Moyuin
sharing a penny of this with the his his
pay masters back in India? He's doing
all the work.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I I think that he is a courier in this
case and I think the government couldn't
prove otherwise.
>> Listen, I'm sticking with seven eight
months. Really? I'm stick with seven
eight months.
>> It sounds like you're hellbent for
leather on that. I just don't believe
you anymore. I'm just not working with
you anymore.
>> Low-level courier. Are you going to send
him to prison for that long?
>> I don't think he's a low-level courier.
I think he knew better.
>> You think he's the mastermind?
>> No, I don't think he's the mastermind.
But I think he he knew what was going
on. I think these were elderly victims.
>> He clearly presented himself as the man
from the government when he went to
Mabel's house. I
>> I have no sympathy for people that come
to this country to rip people off.
>> I'm ask elderly vulnerable victims.
>> I just want you to consider every factor
before you make your foolish or
brilliant guess.
Ah, I don't care if I lose. 78 months.
>> 78 months. Well, Col's going to have to
pull out his calculator because the
correct answer is 96 months.
>> What's
I I was going to go lower, too. Well,
you had
>> 76*8 is 76.
>> You got what? Mine was 78. Yeah, you got
it. I'm good.
>> Okay. Okay. Yeah,
>> I'm good.
>> I thought you said 76.
>> No, I said 78 months. I want to let you
know how much mercy I showed you because
I could have gotten you down to 24
months later.
>> I could have. I so could have but I you
were there and I and I thought oh this
is just cruel and unusual punishment.
>> I did say if you like a US citizen I
said and and there weren't vulnerable
victims it would be like 24 months
>> right?
>> Okay we've been doing a lot of fraud
cases.
>> Mhm.
>> Let's get dirty.
>> Okay.
>> Let's get into some non fraud cases uh
for the last few stories that we're
going to do. I think the last four or
five. And uh and and uh let's start with
the national security world.
>> Okay. Here is a fun fact for you that
our main adversaries when it comes to
foreign counter intelligence in China in
uh in people spying on the US, China and
Russia. Would you agree with me?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Russia and they both have massive
budgets for their intelligence services.
>> Russia has a lot of money that they
throw at people to get them to betray
their country in the US. China, it is
known to the FBI, who monitors and and
investigates these things, are notorious
cheapkates.
It is staggering to me talking to the
Chinese and Russian foreign counter
intelligence squads at the FBI how much
one can make by betraying your country
to Russia versus how little you make
betraying your country to China. It's
just interesting culturally,
>> right?
>> Yeah.
>> And you would think that I I would think
that China has more money than than
Russia. I think they both have a sizable
percentage of their budget uh for
foreign counter intelligence there. They
just decide, you know, whether they they
pay their the US traders a lot or a
little. Um just two different
approaches. They came up through two
different worlds. Um
>> the mission of the US State Department,
how would you describe that?
>> The State Department and the State
Department is supposed to is I don't
know what the State Department does. I
know they issue passports.
>> That Yeah, that's sort of their domestic
role. Yeah, they they
>> right
>> like you know Marco Rubio is the
secretary of state.
>> Okay. So what he's negotiating with
other countries he's what looking out
for the interest of the United States.
>> Yeah. Their stated their stated mission
is to advance America's national
security, economic prosperity and
democratic values by conducting
diplomacy. They're the diplomats. Okay.
And by fostering international
cooperation. Um, and uh, but what the
State Department did not know is that
there was a spy in their midst, a
traitor.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. His name was Mark Skina. Sa.
He lived in Alexandria, Virginia, where
I lived uh, in the 1980s.
And one day out of the blue, he was
contacted on social media by a Chinese
woman who claimed to be a consultant for
an international consulting agency who
wanted to pick his brain about a few
things. She said she would pay him for
his time.
That's one of the things when I left the
FBI that I was specifically warned
about. And one of the things we when we
have our kind of operational security
training that we have to attend every
they say at some point you will be
contacted probably by somebody on
LinkedIn or some other social network
who claims to be a consultant from China
in a business who just wants to pick
your brain or have you write a white
paper and they're going to offer you a
little bit of money. Don't do it.
>> Okay,
>> this is the way they operate. They do
this a lot to current and former
government employees to try to kind of
begin re
you give a little bit and a little bit
and a little before you know it you're
you're dip deep and it's bad and it
looks bad. You start to realize like oh
my gosh I've been dealing with these
guys for two years and
>> exactly
>> and in its entirety it looks like I'm
committing.
>> Now Mike is no fool, right? He attended
the same training that I attended and he
recognizes this immediately as a
sophisticated attempt by the People's
Republic of China to leverage him as a
confidential source of classified
information. He sees right through it.
But you know what he does? He jumps in
with both feet. Anyway,
>> really?
>> Yeah.
>> Um he agrees and begins providing his
Chinese contacts with sensitive US
government documents in exchange for
money.
>> Not much money.
>> I was going to say how much money.
>> We're going to get there.
After two years of betraying his oath of
office,
the Chinese ask Mike to travel to Peru.
He goes to Peru and he meets his Chinese
handlers in a hotel room in Peru and
they provide him with $10,000 cash.
>> Are you [ __ ] serious?
>> I am effing serious. And they also give
him a secure cell phone and they want
him to go and they tell him very
specific documents that he has access to
and they want him to take pictures of
those documents with his secure cell
phone in the secure facility at the US
Department of State in DC and then text
those documents uh to his Chinese
handlers. Okay. Um and so he gets in he
goes back to the office. He's following
orders. He's photo he photographs four
different
secrets classified national defense
documents using that cell phone he was
given by the Chinese while in Peru. But
by this point the FBI was on to him
>> because what happens is that the US
intelligence agencies, let's say the
CIA, the NSA and the FBI for the most
part are trying to keep tabs on the
Chinese bad guys or Chinese intelligence
service around the world. and they
immediately begin seeing that Chinese
intelligence is in touch with a state
department employee and so they were on
him even in Peru to what was happening
here and uh and but they they can't
really arrest him in Peru and and you
know at this point you know he'd
accepted the money he had pro provided
some documents before that weren't all
that interesting but the documents that
he was supposed to provide with the cell
phone pictures were a big deal I don't
know what the contents are but they were
a big deal to the US government top
secret stuff. And so they um so he's
taken the pictures with a cell phone and
presumably by this point, again, because
I've been part of some investigations
like this, they probably had a camera
above his cubicle at the State
Department or in his office at this
point. They were watching his every move
because that's how we roll. And uh and
as soon as he takes those pictures with
a cell phone,
but before he could send it, they swoop
in and arrest him.
>> I was say hopefully before he can send
them.
>> Yeah. And that's the idea is, right?
They want to contain this thing. Um,
Mike has to face an FBI interrogation.
Gives it up. I mean, it nowhere to go.
Um, and he tells the story about what he
had done, sharing everything he knew
about his Chinese handlers. He was
charged with conspiracy to collect and
transmit national defense information.
That's the crime. Mhm.
>> Um,
>> you and I have discussed in the past on
previous episodes that the US government
does not want to take cases like this to
trial. One, it's a little embarrassing.
Although, I think there's people out
there, myself included, who think that
every now and then a public hanging of
one of these people is not a bad thing
to send a message to the ones who
haven't been caught that this this
there's repercussions. But mostly they
don't want it because then the secret
documents themselves become part of the
official record and they either need to
be declassified or the jury needs to be
sequestered, the judge needs to have a
background check on them. And it just
it's it's just a very sensitive issue
because criminal courts by definition
should be open to the public and have
complete transparency, but we're dealing
with a crime involving sensitive
national security information that we
don't want out there in the public eye.
Right.
>> Right. Right. So, the government often
cuts these guys favorable deals. And
that's my question to you is with that
knowledge, how much time does a judge
give Mike?
>> I feel like everything you say is geared
towards getting me to say the wrong
>> paranoid. Yeah,
>> I am going.
>> And these don't fit through an easy
fraud meat grinder where you take the
you take the, you know, dollar amount
and you cycle it through. So you have to
actually tr truly take a look at what's
in the interest of justice here.
>> Do you see the pendulum? He said the
interest he had the he said he had me
completely on they don't want to
prosecute these. They tend to get very
favorable deals that this is there's all
these reasons why they don't want to
take it to trial and they and the
favorable deal thing means low, right?
That's what I'm thinking low. And then
as soon as I was like, "Okay, I'm
feeling good about this." He shifts it
the other way to in in the in the uh um
uh whatever of justice, you know, the
the the interest of justice. It's like,
hey, big boy, this is switch right back
to
>> this is the harsh sentence.
>> The game within the game.
>> Well, I guess I guess that depends on
how you look at it, right? Like it
should be a just sentence, which should
be fair.
>> Hey, big boy. This is the what the judge
has to deal with every time he he meets
out a sentence and something like this,
right? He's he's weighing all of these
things against each other. He they I'm
not saying the judge is a guy. I don't
>> You're the judge. We're going to get you
a judge robe next.
>> Yeah, there you go. They have uh um they
have a pre-sentence report. They look at
what do you do
120 months. That's I read the letters
from his family. Yeah, I know those
case. Um
>> conspiracy to collect and transmit
national defense information. Sounds
like serious. You know what I mean? Um I
wonder how much he never got a chance to
hit send.
>> Well, yeah. How much money did they
care?
>> I think they I think the entirety of the
case was hinged on the Peru documents.
>> The u the Chinese will spend a lot of
time having you send stuff that they
don't really give a [ __ ] about to kind
of get you in the pattern providing.
>> Yes. Yes. And so I'm willing to bet that
the documents he provided before his
trip to Peru
>> were horshit and probably not even
classified.
>> Okay,
>> they want to get you in the pattern of
of doing and and the money he received,
if anything, was dimminimous.
>> Dominimus.
And I'm I'm positive what that means.
>> It has min in it, so you could figure it
out.
Um,
let me think. Let me think. Take your
time, buddy.
Does this offend you? Start with your
your moral c uh
>> I mean it it it does offend me. It does
offend me that that I you know but I'm
my stance on which is so funny cuz you
know I'm such a scoundrel
>> um on so many on so many things. You
know what I'm saying? And yet my my
uh opinion on the security of the United
States and what's in the best interest
of the United States, listen
at at at the expense of every other
country out here. Like to me, it's like
I'm concerned about what's what's good
for the US and the US citizens at the
And I could care less about Oh, well,
yeah, but what about this and what about
these? I don't I don't care about them.
>> I don't care about them.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Um
>> you're a home team guy.
>> Yeah. So it it bothers me. So I mean to
me the fact that whatever he gave up,
you know, to me
>> violating his oath of office, is that
problematic?
>> Yeah. Yeah. All of that bothers me. So,
you know, to me it would be a harsh
harsh sentence. But I also see a lot of
these things that that like you think
they're going to get a huge sentence and
they just don't.
>> He never hit send on the classified
documents.
>> Completely irrelevant.
>> Okay. He's about to probably, right?
>> Yeah. Exactly. I think that's like the
guy jumping in the going in the bank,
robbing the vault, running out, and
dropping the bag as he runs out the
door. He never got all the money. I
don't give a [ __ ] He was That was a
mistake. He would have
>> Difference between murder and attempted
murder. You see no difference?
>> Yeah.
>> There's a little difference there, but
yeah, not much.
>> Okay.
>> Uh yeah, I I don't I want to say I want
to say like I want to say five years. I
don't know why I I mean I think he
should have got more, but I want to say
five years because I do understand that
they don't that it's a problem.
or it's problematic in in
you know when you know remember V Victor
Bot Victor Bot was the uh the Merchant
of Death uh you know the movie um Lord
of War.
>> Yeah.
>> Like he's the guy that's kind of
semi-based.
>> You you wrote a book with him or about
him or something like that.
>> Yeah. No, that Yeah, that was No, that
was that from Devoli.
>> Oh, sorry. I get the guys. Yeah, it was
Nick Cage. Cage the movie but it was
semi ba it was loosely based on Victor
bot which is a a Russ I want to say he's
Russian and he was they called him the
merchant of death right like he had sold
>> he's an arms dealer
>> arms dealer he eventually got caught
>> uh
>> selling to like the the tootsies and the
hooties and
>> no he's selling to both all all sides
but no he actually like he had been in
all kinds of stuff had happened but I
think it was like the it was it was it
was like the DEA or ATF which is funny
because it was neither one of those m it
wasn't like the FBI He ended up getting
they put up it was like a sting
operation in Malaysia or something and
they get him where he's he's literally
there are indictments all over like we
want him he's been indicted in the
United States he goes to this other
country this kind of he knows where he
can go travels to like Malaysia or
something I'm probably wrong might have
been in the Philippines or some place
where we we don't really have
jurisdiction
>> and he goes there but they had a sting
set up and he doesn't realize it of
course and he's on He's selling them
rockets like um what are the rockets
that what do they call them? Are they
SAMs a surfacetoair missile? Selling
surfacetoair missiles to FARC.
>> Okay.
>> Which the United States has designated
as a terrorist organization,
>> right?
>> And he says very they have them on tape
saying they're like, "You understand
that these were going to be used by
FARC?" And and he he's like, "Yeah,
yeah." He's and he says, "Listen." He
said they go, "They're probably going to
be shooting DEA helicopters out of the
sky with these things." And he goes,
"Man, he's I'm no friend of the United
States."
>> I mean, he just Yeah. They grab him.
>> Yes. That's something you want on tape.
>> No. You know, they grab him and they
take him out the United States
eventually. And uh they try him. His
entire trial is behind closed doors, no
camera. Like it's really like it was
some kind of like a military. They had
national security, national I mean
everything about it was
>> and which you know, it's like I get it,
but it also seemed unfair to me. kind of
is
>> because it it's it to me it's like okay
well how do we know this this trial is
even fair
>> right
>> um but then I also think that there's
probably a lot of things that Victor Bot
did for the US government that they
probably just don't want out there
>> I promise you the government probably
offered him a plea deal of some kind
because they didn't want to try it uh
yeah for all the same reasons
>> he ended up getting I want to say he got
30 years you know who they traded him
for
>> who's that
>> Britney Grryer
>> really
>> that's that's the person that they
swapped him for
>> I had no idea
>> yeah he' done a bunch of time though
he'd already done like 10 or 10 or some
some odd year, 10, maybe 15 years. He
done a bunch of time.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. But that's the same thing where
I'm saying you're right. They
>> It doesn't look good. Yeah.
>> It doesn't look good to have these
trucks. So, I'm going to say five years
because I don't really know what he did.
And I'm thinking, what does the State
Department really have?
>> You know, what do what do they what
documents do they have?
>> I mean, they get a lot of national
security stuff in.
>> Do they? I don't I didn't I didn't I
wasn't thinking that at all, but either
way.
>> All right.
>> But then look at what's his name? What's
the guy's name? Snowden. Yeah. Well,
they smashed Snowden, didn't they?
>> You know, I did the search on Snowden's
house.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. He's a Hawaii guy.
>> Didn't know that.
>> Another story for another day.
>> Yeah.
>> Five years is your guess for Mike Skina.
>> Yes.
>> The correct answer. Four years in
prison. You nailed it.
>> Four times 1.2.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that it? Four times 1.2.
>> That would be it.
>> Four * 1.2 is 4.8. Eight.
>> Oh, you missed it by a couple months.
You missed it.
>> Such [ __ ]
>> Couple months.
>> This is such [ __ ] We should be
doing the calculation the opposite way.
>> No, no. 20% of the actual answer. We
made that mistake is what we should be
using.
>> First time we uh first time we played
this game, we we were we were three
morons who are mathematically challenged
and then we had a hundred comments.
>> Umh.
All right, moving right along.
>> So close.
>> Yeah. Yep. I was pretty close. I'll bet
you there are people in the comments who
are saying like 10 years 20 years and
I'm that was pretty close. I was only a
year off. That seems
>> feel like there needs to be a different
>> When I do the national security stories
on my Instagram feed, Simon
Investigations, they uh the you know the
comments are all like military people
like he deserves to be hanged for
treason, firing squad into a chipper
shredder, but he wasn't in the military.
>> I get it. Yeah, I get it.
>> You ever see the movie Deadpool 2?
>> Yes. I I love that. I I I love the
character.
>> Right. So, there was a we there's a
scene in Deadpool 2 I want to remind you
of and remind your viewers. Um it was a
kind of a small subplot, but there was a
young mutant named Russell in the movie
who had the power kind of a fat
>> guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> He had the power to generate and project
fire, right? And so they sent him to a
mutant re-education center, right? Kind
of like what they send like gay people
to to like pray the gay away. What do
they call that? What do they They got a
name for those things.
>> Conversion therapy.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And uh so Russell lashes out against the
staff causing explosions and setting
part uh setting parts of this fictional
school, this mutant re-education center
on fire.
>> Yes.
>> Keep that in your back of your mind,
okay? Because this is a story about a
31-year-old
I'm going to get in trouble here woman
named McKenzie Mccclure who is a
biological woman who identifies as a
transgender man.
>> So confusing.
>> I know every I get I get in so much
trouble when I do a story about a
transgender person. But when you tell me
someone is a transgender man, I have to
do long division to think that means
biological woman who believes she he or
she is a man. Then you get into what do
you call them? He or she.
>> I don't mean to offend anybody. I have
no rooting interest in this thing,
right?
>> I don't love trans people. I don't hate
trans people. I don't pretend to
understand it. It's just not my
preoccupation.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Right. So I
>> McKenzie calls herself or himself
Calvin. Um
>> but listen, we're going to be guessing
McKenzie's prison sentence at the end of
this. And Mckenzie is serving her time
at a women's prison, right? So, in the
eyes of the law, which is kind of where
I'm coming from on this thing,
McKenzie's a lady, right? And I
apologize to everybody who's offended by
that. I I'm not looking.
>> What was the name again? The name was
>> McKenzie is the
>> No, no, no. The the that identifies as a
man named
>> Calvin with a K.
>> Calvin.
>> I come up with Calvin. I of all the
names, if I could pick my
>> I'm telling you, man, you do not want to
stick your head in this furnace.
>> For unclear reasons, McKenzie became
fixated on Christ Presbyterian Academy
in Nashville.
>> So many issues
>> where she attended elementary school
back when she was a little girl.
>> Okay, I'm assuming she had a bad time
there. Okay, it begins with McKenzie
hanging around campus filming herself
giving the finger to the school building
>> like taking a selfie of herself with her
middle finger raised in front and like
giving her finger to the school
building. Not cool. Not the end of the
world. Not a federal crime.
>> But things escalated quickly. McKenzie
called the school, the academyy's
office, and left a voicemail threatening
to commit an act of terror against the
school. And she said, "Just like the one
in Deadpool 2."
>> She identified
with that mutant, right,
>> who was pissed off at the re-education
center in Deadpool 2 and felt that she
was like that little boy, Russell.
>> Right.
>> Calvin has some problems. As you can
imagine, the Nashville school was
freaked out and they check their
security cameras after they get this
call and they see McKenzie walking
around campus at night pulling doors
open that are locked.
>> Okay.
>> Right. Um
she she never made it into the school.
>> Yeah.
>> The school calls the FBI. I've been on a
lot of these type of calls.
>> Now, why do they why does that fall
under FBI?
>> Because at this point, she is
threatening to commit an act of terror
against the school in the voicemail.
Okay.
>> And you know, I'm going to, you know, I
don't know if she said I'm going to burn
this place down, but but uh but she's
referencing Deadpool 2. School
secretary, like you and I saw the movie,
thought, well, that's not good. Yeah.
Like that guy in Deadpool 2 burned down
his school.
>> Well, first they have to go find a fan
to explain what happened. You know, not
everybody's going to know.
>> Again, the FBI on these things, they're
not thrilled to have to work these
cases, but they can't let any they So,
they go, they talk to McKenzie, they
admonish her. McKenzie, cut the [ __ ]
>> right?
>> Knock it off. You're frightening people
at the academy. I know you didn't have a
good time in elementary school. You know
who else didn't have a good time in
elementary school? Everyone else.
>> Right. Um, cut the [ __ ] To her credit,
McKenzie's like, "Okay, okay, I'll knock
it off."
>> Okay.
>> Right. They leave it. No harm, no foul.
>> I feel like that's not where it ended.
>> No need to make a federal case. The
school spent The school's weirded out by
this whole thing. Yeah. They spent
$140,000
increasing their security measures
because they're so freaked out by
McKenzie.
McKenzie continues. She continues threat
her threatening terror campaign on the
social media app X. She's no longer
calling the school, but she's posting
tweets on Twitter, which is now known as
X, evidently. Um, threatening to do a
mass casualty event at the school. She
likened it to 911.
>> What the
>> I'm going to 911 the school is what
she's saying.
>> I don't know if you know this. I know
this because my wife was in federal
prison. A woman's McKenzie when
>> she goes to federal prison
>> is going to be considered a stud.
>> Oh yeah, that's what they call. Yeah.
When when a woman when a a woman in
federal or in I don't know if it's state
but in federal prison
identifies as a man
>> um and looks a lot like a man like
McKenzie does.
>> I suspect that hormone replacement
therapy that she is getting to get those
whiskers is going out the window in
prison. Well, it is with the big
beautiful bill, but prior to that,
>> they would continue with it.
>> They would continue. I had a Syd that
was going through uh was a trans woman
and they were giving her I'm going to
say her this appropriate thing. The
shots, you lefty.
>> They were giving her name was Miss um
what they she went by Miss Smith. Um,
they were giving her the shots and I was
like, "Oh, seeing a counselor like the
money they're spending on this dude to
to transform into a woman was [ __ ]
insane." But
>> So, you had like a roommate with a rack?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, no. No, didn't have that surgery
yet. Uh,
>> okay. I mean, I would think that the
hormones alone would cause the breast.
>> It was It was like being in a And this
was when I was in the drug program. So,
you don't have a It's not like you can
buck and say, "Fuck it. Send me to the
hole. I'm not doing this." you they'll
just they'll throw you out and they'll
thole. So, uh what was the funniest
thing was it was like being in a cell
with a 12-year-old girl.
>> Oh, just emotionally.
>> Oh my god. Up and down. And so and so
said this to me and hurt my feelings and
you know, he doesn't even think about
it. He doesn't even think about how how
that makes me feel. And I'm just like,
you know, I'm sitting there going, "How
did I get myself into this?"
>> Was she kind of nice and easy to get
along with as a person?
>> Yeah.
>> Nicest person you you've ever met? To
me, that's the barometer, right?
>> I will give I will call anybody by
whatever name or whatever gender they
want if they're a kind and good person.
It's an act of courtesy. It's an act of
politeness.
>> Right. Right. I'm not going to be told
by law to do it. But if if if I think
this person is a nice person, this is
what you I don't care what you want to
be called. That's fine.
>> What this is the funniest thing was
>> when they switched the beds cuz you
don't get to choose your roommate in the
drug program. You just It's an
assignment.
>> Yeah.
>> When I walked into the cell and looked
over and saw Mrs. Smith. She stands up
and says and says, "Oh my god, Cox,
we're going to be roommates." And that
that's just the greatest. And I go,
"Well, I'm not happy about it like
that." And she went and I walked off and
I immediately felt like, "Oh, man. I was
a dick." Like this poor little
12-year-old girl who's who's trapped in
the body of a six foot 6' tall black
man.
>> Oh, okay.
>> So, she wasn't passing to the naked eye
at this point as being a lady. Uh, had
had the long dreads. No. Oh, no. No.
Well,
>> no. No. Just wondering. Just wondering.
Yeah.
>> And I'm sorry. I I I feel bad for saying
that.
>> Yeah, I get it. Um, so let's get back to
McKenzie or Calvin. Don't want a dead
name. Um,
>> dead neighbor. You know, that's what
they call it when they they This is This
is a So, your old name is your dead
name. That's
>> And it's a real insult to call someone
by their dead name.
>> Yeah. There. That's their dead name.
They're they're dead. That person is
dead to them. Their new person is
Calvin.
>> But I am reporting as per the court
records and she was prosecuted and
charged under the McKenzie name. And so
we're just sticking to the four corners
of the documents here. So let me recap.
We have a the Deadpool 2 threat.
>> Yes.
>> We have a admonition by the FBI to knock
it off.
>> Yes.
>> We have the school investing $140,000 in
upgraded security measures. And
>> and then we have McKenzie continuing
threatening a 9/11 style attack against
this,
>> right? That's where that's where it
went.
>> On the McKenzie side, um I think it's
probably likely that McKenzie, given the
issues that McKenzie is dealing with,
probably truly had a bad time at that
elementary school
>> uh back in the day and had really bad
feelings about it. I don't know if
that's in mitigation, but I know that
the judge um at McKenzie decided to take
that case to trial. Are you serious?
>> And what what was the charge?
>> Uh cyberstalking.
>> Cyberstalking. Okay.
>> She was arrested on cyberstalking
charges. Went to trial. Uh was tried
under her given name and the jury was
instructed that the jury does not have
to refer to her by any particular
gender, but but her legal name was
McKenzie, and that's how she was going
to be tried under. It was it was a big
issue in the trial itself, the gender
thing obviously
>> and kind of the cornerstone of her
defense. All right. Um Um Yeah. So, uh
found guilty at a trial, which as you
know will generally give you a longer
sentence than the plea deal that she
could have taken.
>> Yeah.
>> How much time is McKenzie going to serve
in women's prison as a result of this?
>> I'm going to say 51 months.
>> 51 months. Talk to me about your thought
process there, Matt Cox. I want to say
48 months, but I got screwed the last
time. So, I'm going to bump it up enough
so that I could cover the the
difference. Right.
>> You think that's how it works? Yeah.
That every every case knows about the
last case.
>> You know, when you flip a coin, the coin
doesn't remember what it was heads or
tails last time. It's still 50/50.
>> 51 months because because here's why is
that, you know, she's just lashing out.
She
didn't actually take any acts other than
going to the school. Other than going to
the school,
>> she placed some calls. You played some
tweets. You may have trespassed,
>> but you did scare a lot of people. And
you were told not to do it. You were
told this is we're taking this serious.
Quit [ __ ] around. there are laws that
you are breaking. We're giving you a
pass. Didn't take a pass. And then also
said, "Hey, after being charged and
arrested, getting a public defender most
likely, sitting down being explained the
whole situation, explaining that you've
terrified these [ __ ] these people,
these children, and they've caused that
they're so terrified they dumped the
$140,000
into into revamping or or upping their
security, and you continued." She said,
"No, I'm going to trial."
>> Yeah.
>> And to me, if I was a judge, I'd be
like, "All right, you know, you're
[ __ ] hit, man. I'm gonna get you. I'm
gonna smash you." You know, but she
didn't do anything. She wouldn't really
do anything other than So, I'm going to
say 51 months.
>> Okay, Colobby, I don't normally ask
this, but producer Colobby, what would
be your guess? You seem really invested
in the story.
>> My guess would be 30 months exactly.
>> And I had a laptop, my guess. That's
amazing that Colby got it right. It was
30 months in women's federal prison. I
keep I forgot that you have access to
information that our our beloved host is
not. And sadly, uh 30 months is not uh
even close.
>> Not even close.
>> Lucky I wasn't on the Lucky I wasn't the
juror. Yeah.
>> I mean the um the judge.
>> You a fan of Ka Lassoul?
>> I don't know what that is.
>> You don't you don't know Ka Lassoul?
>> It sounds Spanish.
>> You into hip-hop?
Do they play it on WQYK country?
>> You don't You're not into Kayla Soul?
>> No. Interesting. There was a band called
Deas Soul that was a popular hip-hop
group in the '90s. But I'm not saying
that. I'm saying Kayla Soul.
>> Okay.
>> All right. Kayla Soul is a Washington DC
um hip-hop star. Her her real name is
Kayla Hargrove,
but as her rapper, she's Kayla Soul. Not
a fan though, huh?
>> No. No.
>> She's in She's in some trouble. Is she
Is she Can Do we want to play some
music?
>> We want to hear some Am I Am I gonna be
>> Oh, yeah.
>> No, I I don't I don't think she ever
really broke through that big, but I was
just curious if you were into Kayla
Soul.
>> Kayla had a boyfriend who was in jail.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And the boyfriend had a $4,000 drug debt
to a dude.
The guy was not out of jail. Um the drug
dealer that that her boyfriend owed
money to was named Philip Anderson. And
Kayla took it upon herself to make sure
that her boyfriend's drug debt was
settled.
>> That make sense? Yeah. You got the
character.
>> She she paid the drug debt.
>> Well, we're getting there.
Um before he was incarcerated,
the boyfriend, Kayla's boyfriend used to
do yard work, okay, for an 83year-old
guy who was a veteran in Arlington,
Virginia named Fred.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um, Kayla's in DC. Fred's in
Virginia. The boyfriend who used to do
the yard work is in prison. So, Kayla
and Philip, the dope dealer, they they
put their heads together. They hatch a
plan to see if they can get old man Fred
to pay off the boyfriend's drug debt.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Right. So, Kayla calls old man
Fred and says, "Hey, remember me? I'm uh
I'm, you know, I I'm your ex, you know,
the guy who used to trim your hedges.
the girlfriend. I came by a couple
times. She said, "Yeah, come on by. I
would love and she I'd love She" She go
She go She go She go She go She go She
go She go She go She go She goes, "Can I
come by and see you?" "I'd love to see
you. My My family never visits me. Come
by and see me."
>> Okay.
>> Right. So Kayla gets to Fred's house and
as soon as Fred opens the door,
Philillip and two of his homies jump out
of the bushes and force their way
inside.
>> Kayla's job was done. And this is
significant. She gets in her car and
drives home, right? She'd gotten Fred's
door open. Philip's going to do the
rest. But she leaves Fred in the hands
of these psychopaths.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. The three men start beating the
heck out of old man Fred, 83year-old
veteran, demanding cash. The poor guy's
like, "I don't keep that kind of money
in my house." So they grab Fred and they
force him into Philip's car and they
drive him to a trap house, a drug house
across the state line into Washington
DC. Right. right from Arlington,
Virginia into Washington DC and they tie
Fred up in the trap house.
>> Mhm.
>> Then they make Fred hop on his phone's
bank app and transfer $7,000 into an
account of someone they know. And then
they grab Fred's debit card and they
send and they get the uh and they send
one of the kidnappers out to get food at
McDonald's for everybody swiping Fred's
debit card. These guys are just rocket
scientists.
So, while Fred is trapped in tied up in
the trap house, Philillip dispatches two
of the thugs to Fred's home to steal
Fred's guns, which were later sold by
Philip for cash.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
Old Fred is no fool. He remembered some
of his military training, and he was
able to untie himself and escape the
trap house and run away despite
lacerations on his face from the beating
he took. He had broken ribs and a
fractured sternum. He limps away to
safety and calls police who loops in the
FBI because this is an interstate
kidnapping.
>> Mhm.
>> FBI has the case. FBI catches everybody
involved. Every single person. The three
kidnappers. I'm I'm not going to ask you
what they got, but I want you to have
this as a kind of pin in your mind. The
three kidnappers plead guilty and
receive sentences between 17 and 20
years each.
>> Wow. I was thinking 30 years. I was
thinking 30 years. You kidnap somebody,
you beat them, you I was thinking 30
years.
>> But then he got Kayla to deal with,
which is really where we're talking
about here on the show, Matt Cox.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> She pleads guilty to aiding and abetting
a kidnapping. She never laid a hand on
Fred,
>> right?
>> Just set him up.
>> Mhm.
>> How much time you going to give Kayla?
Kayla Soul, the rapper. The uh hip-hop
treasure.
>> The hip-hop treasure. Um,
boy, I want her to get 10 years. Uh,
84 months.
>> She's aing in a bedding, man. She She
didn't kidnap anyone. Never laid a hand
on Fred. Never touched him. Never
touched his sternum. Never broke his
fingers.
>> Guy's got 17 to 20. She
>> She's just trying to pay off someone
else's drug debt.
>> I I don't care what your reason is.
>> What your the rationalization? Yeah.
Um,
[Music]
I don't know. I'll go 61. I'll go 60 62
months.
>> 62 months is your guess.
>> I feel like she deserves more, but
they barely gave these other guys
anything.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know. 17 to
20 years is a lot of time.
>> I You That's a home invasion. That's a
kidnapping. You moved the person. You
almost stole guns. You beat You almost
beat him to death. You I mean he was
they they were going to kill him once
they got everything they could get out
of him. He was they were going to kill
him. Um
>> uh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I bought you
lunch. I bought everybody lunch with my
credit card. No. Absolutely. And I I'm
shocked they got they got seven between
17 and 20. I was thinking 30 years. I
can't believe this. It's so funny. What
always kills me is that the the
there's just like the like for crimes of
violence.
I'm always shocked at how little people
get for violent crimes where to me
violent crimes I'd be brutal brutal if
it was had violence in anything to do
with violence and then they'll you'll
have a money crime and somebody will get
15 or 20 years and you're like are you
joking? These guys kidnapped someone.
They beat him with senseless like so um
I don't know 62 months.
>> 62 months. Does that be 5 years? Two
months.
>> Yeah. You know, she probably cooperated
and probably got she probably got
probation.
[ __ ] jerkoffs. Um
>> they all plead guilty.
>> Yeah, they all plead guilty. But but she
probably cooperated.
>> She definitely cooper Well, they all
probably rolled over on each other. I'm
going lower now. I'm going 36 months.
I'm going to go 36 months.
>> Really? You talked yourself out.
>> I did. 36 months.
>> 36 months. That's your guess, huh?
>> Yeah.
>> You sure?
>> Yes. What is it?
>> You feeling okay about that?
>> I not really, but I'm going to go with
it.
>> The sentence that Kayla got for setting
up Fred for a kidnapping and a beating.
>> I like that he said setting up
>> was six years in prison. [ __ ] I
was so I was at I was at 60, dude. I was
close. I was right there at 62 months. I
was right there.
I didn't even have to talk you out of
it. I just sat here and shut my trap and
you talked yourself out of it. That's
how good I am.
My Mine was I was at 62 months. What am
I at now?
>> Three of 11.
>> Oh, this is [ __ ] This is [ __ ]
>> You want to wave the white flag? You can
see.
>> Yeah, I'm there. I'm not bouncing back
somehow. I'm not changing math.
>> I think about the show rather than these
contests. I mean,
>> we got we got we got I'm competitive. I
want
>> Okay, then then you're going to need to
edit out the me saying there are 12
stories cuz there's now just 10 stories.
>> I'll just leave this in.
>> Yeah, people will unsubscribe if we do
10 and you said 12.
>> Well, I'll just leave this in.
>> Well, we're filming a second episode
today.
>> Yeah. So, I have two more stories. Why
don't I just put them on ice until the
next time I come visit you?
>> That's what I'm saying. You can just
keep them.
>> Um
>> I mean, this is pretty long. This is a
long one.
>> Okay, that's fine. It's your show. Yeah.
>> And we got to go eat.
>> Yeah.
>> Are we going somewhere to eat?
>> Yes. Really? My god. Am I paying?
>> I I'll pay. So, yeah, you are paying.
I'm not gonna let I'm not gonna let
Colobby pay if
>> he is paying. He's paying with the with
the
>> It's the YouTube money.
>> Oh, the company credit card.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. Well, um
>> what are you doing for a living now?
>> Funny you should ask. Um you know, I'm
uh I conduct investigations for a living
right now, uh as a private investigator.
While I'm licensed in Florida, I
practice in all 50 states. And uh and
every time I go on your show, I end up
getting calls from Matt Cox listeners
and viewers who want to talk to me about
an issue that they're having. And I do
free consultations for anyone who
mentions the Matt Cox show. And I'm
happy to talk on the phone as long as
possible. And quite often I I steer them
in the right direction, can even help
solve their problems without charging
them a dime. But some of them actually
hire me. And my expertise is people
who've been victimized in a fraud. And
so um there's things I can do to help
try to maybe get their money back. in a
worst case scenario, I can conduct an
investigation and maybe even shepherd
that to my former colleagues at the FBI
for whatever um whatever investigation
they deem appropriate. Right? So, um I
just want to throw it out there that if
anyone watching the Matt Cox show ever
wants to reach out for me, you can get a
hold of me on my website,
simoninvestigations.com.
I I just really want to help and I want
to thank you for um for always allowing
me on the show. We always have a good
time together.
>> Gary, get any crazies? Um, I get not so
much crazies, but sometimes I hear from
people who um who there I just can't
help them and I'm not going to steal
money from them and I let them know that
this is just sort of out of the scope of
what I do. I did get someone from the
Matt Cox show who's convinced that
they're hearing voices in their fillings
and um and I gave them your home phone
number. I hope you don't mind.
>> Listen, every once in a while I get an
we'll get an email from someone. We're
like, "Oh, wow. This guy there's nothing
we can do for you, buddy."
>> Hey, you guys. I appreciate you
watching. Do me a favor, hit the
subscribe button, hit the bell so you
get a notified of videos just like this.
Also, we're going to leave uh all of
we're going to leave the uh Simon
Investigates website and uh uh social
media links in the description box. In
addition to that, if you'd like to be a
guest, please go to our website and go
to the is it like be a guest page or
something?
>> The link is actually in the description.
They click on the link, it'll take them
right to that page. Oh yeah, just click
on the link and it'll take you right to
the page where you need to fill out a
brief application. I mean, it's like
it's nothing. It's very simple. And put
up like a 3 to 5 minute video of your
story. Uh just so that we can see you
and see that you're presentable and you
have all your teeth. Um and yeah, so uh
that's it. Thank you very much. See you.
Be cool.
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