I got all the media there.
>> A prisoner cannot consent to have sexual
relations with a prison guard.
>> And then he starts sprinting down the
street just like running like like like
running away from the camera. Hello,
Matt Cox.
>> Hello, Tom.
>> Happy 2026.
I'm calling the shop, my man. This is
going to be our year.
>> Yeah.
>> This is going to be the year we get a
call from a production company saying
that I love what you guys do. We're
going to develop a whole game show
around you two guys where Matt competes
against three contestants picked from
the Court TV audience or whatever. And
it's going to be a daily show, a weekly
show, and they're going to throw a ton
of money at us doing our little game
show on on national television.
>> I I I want you I want it to be true.
>> This is going to be amazing. I'm going
to finally for the first time get paid
for doing this. [laughter]
>> We did bought We have bought you lunch
twice.
>> Yeah, twice. It's amazing. Yeah.
>> From Five Guys.
>> Exactly. And but then you sent me a
$1099 for the cost of the lunch. That
was kind of a [laughter]
a rat effing.
>> So, [snorts] um, speaking of that game
show, here's what we're going to do
today. And I want to reintroduce this
because I know people are constantly
finding your show and your numbers, by
the way. Amazing. I mean, you're closing
in on a million. I think a million by
Valentine's Day. You think?
>> Yes.
>> Valentine's Day.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> February 1st. Absolutely.
>> February 1st.
>> Okay. Yeah. I mean I mean I feel like
it's been like a 30 40,000 sub
subscriber leap just over the past since
you know over the holidays.
>> 60 a month.
>> Yeah, it's about 60.
>> That's fantastic. Congratulations. You
deserve it and I'm I'm proud to be the
win beneath your wings.
>> So, we're going to do a little game show
today as we've done I think 14 times so
far where
>> Oh my god.
>> Isn't that amazing? I know it's like 28
hours of content. and uh where what I'm
going to do is I'm going to tell you a
crime story
usually from the uh files of the FBI.
Some of the cases are cases that I had
some involvement in. Other cases are
just other FBI agent cases. And then at
the end of the crime story, I'm happy to
answer any questions you have to the
extent that I know the answers. I'll
answer them. Then I want you to guess
the sentence. How much time was this
person sentenced to prison for? And you
make your guess. And then you change
your answer four or five times because
that's what you do. And then at the end,
we reveal what the actual sentence was.
And if you are within a 10% variant,
>> is it 10% now?
>> 20
>> 20% 10%. My god,
>> wouldn't it be great if it was 10 20%
variant of the actual sentence? You get
a point. Kobe's going to keep score and
you will either win or lose.
>> Well, I've been losing at 20%. I feel
like it should be 25%. But anyway, go
ahead. Now you're dropping.
>> I would I'm hoping you would get better
at this over time.
>> You would think.
>> All right. You ready to launch into the
first story? You got anything? We have
some bonus.
>> Oh, and we have a bonus round.
>> Tell me about the bonus round.
>> I I've picked uh two even though I think
it was supposed to be just one. Anyway,
I've got a couple of cases of mine where
I can tell you what happened and you can
guess.
>> Oh, this the shoes on the other foot.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> We've done some show prep on your own
show, my man. This is a new year for
you. Matt Cox is turning a page. Today's
a little more of a themed one. We're
going to be talking about authority
figures and a situation authority
situations.
Um,
>> position of trust.
>> Yeah. Kind of, you know, we're going to
stick it to the man today. We're going
to be talking about uh prison uh
corrections officers who kind of break
bad, do the wrong thing.
>> Okay.
>> We're talking about some dirty cops,
maybe ex- cops. We're going to talk
about some dirty politicians. And we're
going to talk about some CEOs who did
the wrong thing. Okay. Okay.
>> We're going to be talking about
authority structures today. and we'll
see if we can find a story in there that
Colby can latch on to for his clickbait
hook that he does on YouTube.
>> Is there anything about Somalian daycare
centers?
>> I I people keep asking me to cover that.
I am not covering it yet because there's
no no one's been charged, right? And so
I'm happy to sit here and like shake my
fist at the world about how awful the
Somali are if they were truly doing this
in Minneapolis involving daycare
centers. But I like to cover cases that
there's a a well not even a resolution.
I'm happy to cover an indictment, but
there's not even that yet. So, let let's
I'm going to keep my powder dry on that
issue. And uh but I think it's really
this these were very interesting cases.
Let me tell you about a story I had some
involvement with. I wasn't the case
agent on it, but was back in Hawaii. Um
one thing I'm very proud of during my
career as an FBI agent is that I was I
was never a supervisor. I went 26 years
without a promotion. Okay, this exact
[laughter]
seriously I went I I went 26 years
without a promotion. I had the exact
same job the day I walked into the FBI
as I did 26 years later and that was the
being a special agent working cases
which I think is the most honorable job
at the FBI.
>> Did you ever even think the Was were you
interested in being a supervisor?
>> No, because once you're a supervisor
you're not working cases, you're
managing people.
>> So [clears throat] now you're a manager.
>> Yeah. Right. And you're caught behind a
desk. I want to be out on the streets
getting off my ass knocking on doors
solving crime and putting criminals in
prison. People like you.
Nothing personal. And um and but one
thing I did do and volunteered to do
because I had some success as a case
agent is we we had people who were
training agents. And so a new agent
right out of the academy has a training
agent for his first 18 months in the
field. And it's kind of like that like
the movie Training Day, but without like
me forcing them to use co and stuff like
that, right? It's uh just me kind, you
know, them them being able to come to me
with questions, me running leads with
them, kind of teaching them how to be an
FBI agent on the job after they've
already been educated from the academy.
And I'm very proud that the agents who
were my trainees that I was I consider
them like my kids. They've all gone on
to be fantastic agents. Some of them
have gone into management. They've gone
on to do great things. There was a
fellow by the name of Elliot Pototts. He
was a new agent right out of the
academy. And for some reason, and it
wasn't clear to me because I usually got
the white collar crime guys who had
accounting backgrounds. They wanted
people like me. And I think he was one
of those guys. He may have had an
accounting degree, but he was not
assigned to me as my trainee there. Um,
but he was
>> near just kind of a Barney Miller bunch
of cubicle type of situations on the
squad there in Hawaii. And he
[clears throat] was assigned a a female
as his um as his training agent. And she
was a fine agent, but she was not a very
personable person. She's a real
introvert. and and just sort of had a
kind of kept to herself. And so one time
I had Elliot run some leads down for me
and he and to you know go do interview
this guy and that guy just again you try
to get the new agents out there on the
streets. He comes I ask him to do it
nicely as a favor. He does it he does a
does a fine investigation. He's a great
agent but but the paperwork was all
effed up. Like it was just terrible. And
uh so I look at the paperwork and uh and
you know he was throw he was shredding
his handwritten notes which you're
you're supposed to maintain those and
stuff like that. And so I walk over to
this cubicle and I was like Elliot good
job on the investigation but the
paperwork's a mess. I go who's your
training agent
>> right?
>> And he's like says the girl's name.
We'll say her name is Carol.
>> Right.
>> And Carol. And Carol's sitting over
there and she go and and she goes what's
going on? I go, "Why don't you teach
this guy, this this kid how to do be an
agent?" And I go, "He's clearly a new
agent writer of the academy. He's got
talent, but you're not doing anything to
mentor him or just show him the way the
FBI paperwork works."
>> She burst into tears and no straight to
HR.
>> She she got in my face. She starts like
like she she gets up. She starts yelling
at me like, you know, why don't you mind
your own business? You got a problem
with me? I go I go, I don't have a
problem with you. I'm telling you to be
I do your job. you you are being part of
your job is to train Elliot and you're
not training him. And I go I go, I'm
happy to do it. You know, if he wants to
you want to say you're no longer able to
be his training agent and she said, "Why
don't you mind your own business?" And
poor Elliot's just sitting there with
his eyes wide as saucers. He did not he
was not interested in being a part of
this fight. I took Elliot under my wing
informally and he became a fantastic
agent and he's still, as far as I know,
a great agent to this day. Haven't
talked to him in a couple years.
>> Elliot,
>> what happened to Kelly?
>> She's I don't know. whatever her name
was.
>> I don't know. She may still be there. I
mean, uh, we didn't really get along,
but we made peace after that and did
some did some cases together and stuff
like that, but she's a fine agent. She
just should not have been a training
agent for anyone.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, I'm just sort of setting the
stage. Elliot had a case, and this is
his case. Um, but I had some involvement
with it on the periphery, and we'll talk
about that. So, you're aware from your
history that it is a crime for a prison
corrections officer to have sex with an
inmate?
>> I've heard that.
>> You've heard that?
>> I've heard that.
>> Even if it's even if it's ostensibly
consensual. Yes.
>> What are your thoughts on that? Um
I so my wife was at Coleman camp
>> when it was a a a woman's camp because
it's now a male man's camp after co they
switched it but
>> she was there and
multiple officers were were tied up with
in a in a lawsuit and the whole thing
>> but basically the the women were you
know like they were going out of their
way to flirt with like they're trying to
get these guys into relationships
because once they get in a relationship
that guy will bring them in stuff and
like it was abs it was more than just
consensual. It was
>> the male
>> the women are being seductresses
>> of of course of course and uh and these
guys are you know some of these chicks
like there's no way these guys are you
know come on you're never getting this
chick you know you shouldn't you know
what you know she's not in love with you
but
>> I mean I I obviously I think it's wrong
because it puts everybody in a bad
situation
>> and it puts the guards in a bad
situation and everybody across the board
in fact in in one case one of the guards
was named uh in the lawsuit and he was
so despondent about it that he actually
took his service uh piece and went uh at
the beginning of his shift, he drove and
parked his car in the parking lot and
want to say I somebody said he actually
took the gun and put it to his chest and
pulled the trigger and killed himself
>> and I knew I actually knew who that I
knew that co.
>> Oh my.
>> Um but yeah, I mean obviously they can't
do it but I I think that you know they
they charge these guys where like a lot
of these guys get charged with like
>> you know like forcibly Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. The R word.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think the idea is that
it's considered to be a sex crime
because the power dynamic between the
guard and the inmate is just so vast
that it's almost like a child. They
can't consent.
>> But here's the thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that the way the lawsuits written up,
>> it's the guards targeting the girls, but
because my wife was there, she's like,
it's the women targeting the men. But
also keep in mind, too, what can they
say? Because you're going to believe
these women because they're in the
vulnerable position and the guards are
these big huge hulking guys and these
women are like, "I didn't want to do it.
He forced me and he he caught me in a
corner and I
>> Yeah, but the inmate didn't take an oath
of office." So,
>> Right. No. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're
right. You're right. It's just a
horrible situation. All the best. You
just avoid it. They should they should
be avoiding it.
>> Right. So, we had a we have a uh in
Hawaii they what do you call it? I guess
an FDC a federal detention center. It's
right there at the airport actually.
It's got the most beautiful view in the
world. Like you're overlook you're
overlooking the ocean on Aahu, but
there's no exercise yard. So you spend
all your time um you know in the cell
just sort of looking out pawing at the
window.
>> Look at the little tiny.
>> Yeah. Those tiny Yeah. Yeah. They do.
They do. They just It drives them
insane. Especially the the ones who are
actually from Hawaii. And I think you
could only you serve the maybe the end
of your sentence there and while you're
awaiting trial or any any sentence less
than one year. But it's also it serves
as an immigration detainer uh jail for
people who are be going to be committed
a crime or you know and are going to be
sent back to their home country. So
there was a woman named um I can't
remember what her name is but she was
from Thailand and she was going to be
sent she was there on an immigration
detainer. I don't know what crime she
committed that wound her up there to
begin with, but she's waiting to be
deported to Thailand. And there was a
guard there named Richard who took a
liking to her and uh and began accepting
oral favors from her on on the on the
rig. And um and this Thai woman was no
fool. At one point when she accepts his
load,
>> Yeah. Yeah. She she she takes her shirt,
>> kept the sample,
>> spits it into the uh the shirt and uh
and then like crumples it up and like
puts it uh in her um in her cell and
then reports it.
>> Mhm.
>> And then my buddy Elliot gets the case
and he interviews her. Very interesting.
You know, do you have any proof? She
goes, "Why yes, I do." And uh she
basically delivers him the soiled
jumpsuit which he then has to um get a
DNA sample of the guard and then send it
to the FBI lab and it came back with his
stuff on it.
>> Right. Pretty solid case.
>> Yeah. You would think,
>> right? Um and so he gets charged with um
whatever that whatever the crime is, you
know, and uh and pleads guilty. And so
there's two little stories. My favorite
part of the story is do you know what
the guar's name was? I said it was
Richard.
His last name was Seaman. His [laughter]
name His name and I swear to God you
could Google it. Was Dick Seaman.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. Dick Seaman. And this was his
crime. That was his undoing.
>> Undoing. [laughter]
>> So I was the media coordinator in
addition to being a a a hot shot agent,
younger agent at the time.
>> They wanted you to do a I press Oh. Oh
no. I did a I I I got all the media
there on the courthouse steps. I'm
talking about Dick Seaman this, Dick
Seaman that and uh and they and and so
and and I I was very very friendly with
the reporters and the media in Hawaii
and the cameramen um because I was out
there on the courthouse steps a couple
times a week because there's not a whole
lot of crime in Hawaii, right? So every
time something happened and I would kind
of pitch them the case, they were like,
"Let's do it." Because there's just not
a whole lot that goes on there. And so
and I was decent on television. They
liked me and there's to this day they're
still my friends. And right now I have a
contract with Hawaii News Now as a crime
analyst where I do I still do um um TV
work for them. But um and so I get them
outside. I give my my talking points and
they're waiting for Dick Seaman to leave
his his in his initial appearance and uh
and he does the dumbest thing. I've only
seen this once. He comes down the
courthouse steps. The cameramen flock to
him and start asking him questions and
then he starts sprinting down the street
[laughter] just like running like like
like running away from the cameraman.
The cameramen are thrilled because they
got the most boring job in the world.
They start running after him and it he
runs up the street. He runs to the
shopping outdoor shopping center.
They're chasing him around the shopping
center. He's trying to hide behind it.
It's all on YouTube. I put it up there
because it's just I've never seen
anybody run from the cameras like that
as opposed to just saying no comment and
walking away. He chose to sprint away.
Good old Dick [snorts] Seaman.
>> So given all that, how much time are you
going to give Dick Seaman?
>> He probably got probation.
>> Really?
>> I'm asking.
>> Yeah. I I I I think I think let's say
let's say let's say he got
Let's say 12 months.
>> Right. So he loses his job, right?
>> Yeah. Of course.
>> Right. Right off the bat. And so you're
saying he gets one year in prison for
the legally the rword against this poor
vulnerable woman.
>> Well, you know what happened to like the
eight guards that were tied up in uh in
the Coleman thing?
>> What happened?
>> Nothing. They they all lost their jobs.
>> Administrative sanctions basically.
Yeah.
>> No, no, they lost their jobs. Yeah, they
lost their jobs. That's
>> They were never charged.
>> Never charged.
>> Interesting.
>> Right.
>> Well, they didn't have young special
agent Elliott on the case.
So I'm And
>> do you think that was because it was a
he said she said type of thing and they
>> on theirs? Yeah. Oh, no. They had all
kinds of proof like it absolutely
happened. There was I mean and and I I
think that most of these guys that I
think almost all of them just kind of
admitted that it had happened. But
>> was it was the investigation done by the
like inspector general um overseeing it
or was it done by the FBI?
>> I want to say it was the FBI
>> and the FBI just walked away with a no
pros on that.
>> Not saying that no one was prosecuted.
>> I guess we I guess we should look it up.
>> I mean it's neither here or neither one
me. I'm sort of I'm surprised to hear
that
>> Coleman lawsuit uh like sexual whatever
>> sexual
>> rape you know lawsuit uh correctional
officers I want to say it was 200
it would be like I'm sorry it' be 20
>> 20 21 15 women um let's see
>> who who investigated
>> who investigated like you talking about
like
>> I mean it's either the FBI or the US
Department of Justice Office of
Inspector ctor general.
>> A lawsuit was settled in May 2021 where
15 women allegedly
had years of sexual assault. Uh let me
see.
>> That's a civil suit though.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Federal government paid No,
>> I don't think they were ever charged. I
think they all lost their job because
that's the whole thing is that uh
>> um because Jess like followed the whole
thing. The [snorts]
>> whole I can tell you for sure because I
was there. Dick Seaman was charged. Dick
Seaman plead guilty. Dick Seaman went to
a sentencing. My question for you is
what happened at that sentencing?
Madcocks
>> 14 months
>> really cuz you were at probation then
you were at 12 months now you're at 14
months
>> I know but you know you get me rattled
so 14 months
>> all right we want to the correct answer
20 months
>> [ __ ] month.
>> All right let's do another story with a
very similar fact scenario but I want to
ask you a question first. I I know
you've only served time in the federal
prison but I know you spent a lot of
time with other people and as part of
your show who've done time in other
prison systems. Would you think it's
fair to say that the Federal Bureau of
Prisons is the best funded and most
professional
um system of prisons in the US?
>> Yes. In the US? Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't think anybody would deny
that. Yeah. That' be better than like,
you know, Vermont state prisons and
>> I think other prisons they don't have
the budget like they give they other
other state state-run prisons might give
the inmates
more, you know, uh uh whatever more more
programs and like because there's a lot
of states where like that you can have a
you can have a TV in your cell. You can
have like they give them all things that
I'm like are you got a TV? like, you
know, insane things. Lots of programs
and things of that nature, but for the
most part, like the the federal prisons,
like they're all air conditioning.
They're all very they're all fairly
nice. They're all well funded.
>> Mhm. You know anything about the Federal
Correctional Institute in Dublin,
California?
>> Uh I've I I mean only only that I know
that I know people that have gone there.
>> Okay. We have a 36-year-old corrections
officer named Andrew Jones who worked at
the Dublin, California FCI.
>> Okay. as part of his job, he would
supervise the female prisoners who would
work in the food services department,
right? They're making the meals and
stuff like that. And he was going to be
their their guard, their supervisor or
whatever. And um and he began accepting
oral favors from three of those inmates.
>> I'm starting to think that some of these
guards are unsavory. [laughter] I mean,
>> shocking. Or these women are just
insanely good-looking. um in the
kitchen, the bathroom, warehouse, and
the utensil storage closet.
More soup, please.
It's important to note, obviously, as we
said, it's illegal, even if it's
consensual ostensibly, uh for all the
reasons we discussed earlier. Um but
Andrew was a little rougher. He demanded
that these women have a code of silence
and don't tell anybody. And he enforced
that through violence and threats of
violence against the girls. So, I want
you to keep that in mind when you're
guessing the sentencing.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> Right.
>> Eventually, of course, it's going to
spill out, right?
>> You can't keep a secret like that. And
um so the FBI and the Department of
Justice, Office of Inspector General
investigate, Andrew's interviewed, and
Andrew lies and lies and lies in his
interview with the FBI. Okay. Uh but
even without a confession, the evidence
is strong enough to make the case. He is
charged with multiple counts of abusive
contact with prisoners. That was the
crime. He plead guilty and he was
sentenced in federal prison.
Uh I'd like to know from you based on
that slight different fact scenario with
three named victims, threats of
violence, lying to the FBI, how much
time are you going to give Andrew? I
think lying in general is I think you
get like in like a couple years like
>> I don't I didn't see that he was charged
with li with a specific count toward of
lying to a federal agent that was not in
the court documents I reviewed
>> but it was definitely brought up at the
sentencing and brought up to the judge.
So the judge was aware of it.
>> I'm going to say 120 months.
>> 120 months.
>> I mean yes
>> that's 10 years in prison.
>> Yeah. You Thanks for the math.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
I'm a CPA by trade.
>> But don't you think that's a vastly
different,
>> you know, um, situation as opposed to
the other, you know, the other woman who
>> you're ready to give the other woman
probation,
>> the the other the other CEO probation.
>> Yeah. Because I felt like it was more
consensual. With this one,
[clears throat] it doesn't sound nearly
as you've got three women saying that
no, it was threats of violence, you
know.
>> No, it's threats of violence to keep
your mouth shut.
>> You got 100% control over this person.
>> I You're making my argument for me. I'm
the law and order guy in this
conversation.
>> Yeah. I I I think that seems reasonable.
>> Okay,
>> that seems reasonable. And look, he's
going to get he's going to do he's going
to actually he's going to do about eight
years. Eight eight eight and a half. I
don't think he'll get I don't think
he'll get any FSA credits because it's
uh No, he you know what he would get FSA
credits. He probably still get FSA
credits,
>> right? How much time he actually does is
a whole different
>> That's irrelevant. I'm just saying that
that's you give him 10 years, he might
be out in six and a half.
>> Okay.
>> He'd be fine.
>> So you're going uh 10 years on this guy.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. The correct answer, Matt Cox.
Eight years of age.
>> Come on, man. I got that.
>> No, YOU DO NOT.
>> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
>> 20% OF eight is
>> 20% of 10 is
>> It's not 20% of 10. It's 20% of the
sentence. Not Not 20% of his cockamini
guess.
>> Come on.
>> I don't make the rules, buddy. It's your
game show.
>> I think that we need in the comments
people. I I think that that's Come on.
Ridiculous.
>> I don't know what to tell you. The art
of writing letters has pretty much
disappeared from this world. People just
don't write handwritten letters, but I
imagine that's still a thing in prison.
Was that a big deal? Getting mail and
sending mail and people would write long
handwritten letters to each other. Was
that was that a big thing in prison?
>> It's huge. It's huge. You get to your
name called at mail call. That's a big,
you know, might seem like nothing now,
but when you're so deprived of uh um you
know, any kind of stimulus, you know,
you you and you know, people are writing
you a letter and they're Yeah, it's
good. Good. Even though you have an
email system,
>> that's really what I wanted to ask you.
Has it been replaced by the emails?
Could your wife email you while you were
in prison?
>> She can email you, but it's still nice
when someone sends you a postcard or you
get a something like that.
>> Okay, got it. And um and prisoners often
wrote letters out, right? That was a
thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Were those letters read by the prison or
they say they were there?
>> It depends. It depends on what the level
like if you're if you're an ADX,
everything you have is read or or uh
like the pen, almost everything's red.
If you're in the medium or the low, they
randomly select them suppose just like
they randomly select the emails to read,
but they have a system that picks up on
words obviously in the on the um in the
email system.
>> Yeah. Interesting. So, there was a
Georgia inmate uh it had to be a federal
prison named Travis Ball and he was
serving two years in prison. I'm
thinking it was for credit card fraud.
I'll explain why in a minute. And he
cooks up a scheme, a brilliant scheme to
get out of prison. What he does is he
writes a letter to his sentencing judge
pretending to be the US Secret Service
agent who investigated his case.
The letter explained to the judge that
there was a mistake during the
investigation and Travis should be let
out of prison. [laughter]
>> Good plan.
>> I'm sure in his mind [laughter] I don't
think this guy's a rocket scientist.
Mhm. Actually, I'll explain to you later
what uh why why Travis is in prison. It
was actually not credit card fraud, but
that was his plan. So, he writes this
letter to the judge. The judge gets the
letter and he smells a rat right away.
>> Right. Probably because the envelope was
stamped inmate mail by the prison.
Right. Right. Uh so, the judge calls in
the FBI to investigate. And the FBI
matches this up this letter to another
letter received by the local sheriff
purporting to be from the FBI asking
that Travis be released so he could work
on a top secret undercover assignment
for the feds. Right. So the FBI is now
aware of two letters that are basically
asking Travis to be released from
prison.
Uh taken together, those two letters are
what the investigators called a clue.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So, uh, as the agents are
preparing to interview Travis, the US
Department of Housing and Urban
Development, HUD, the people who do
public housing, they get a letter
threatening to burn down the building
and kill the government employees
inside. Same handwriting, same
fingerprints, same DNA on the paper.
>> Okay, [clears throat]
>> it's Travis. [laughter]
>> You'll be shocked to learn. Um, now is a
good time, I think, for me to explain
that the reason Travis was actually
serving two years because he was sending
threatening letters to the government
containing fake anthrax. That's how he
got himself in trouble with secret
service.
>> He's got a real problem with the mail uh
system in general. He doesn't seem to
understand how this is supposed to or
work. Supposed to be doing this.
>> I had a pen pal when I was a kid. It was
nothing like this.
So, given that, um, keep in mind Travis
is in prison. How much extra time?
Little curveball for you. Travis pleads
guilty.
>> Yeah.
>> How much extra time do they tack on to
the end of his two-year sentence for
this these um these letters threatening
HUD and trying to scam the judge and
scam the local sheriff?
How many extra months or years in prison
or zero? It could be zero. I know you
you would like that.
>> 33 33 months.
>> 33 months extra.
Talk to me about your thought process
there.
[snorts]
>> I hate it when you do this.
>> I think the audience likes it though.
>> I have a moment where I feel really
secure with my answer.
>> Hey, this show is Inside True Crime with
Matthew Cox. They tune in not for me.
They tune in for you, my man. They want
to know what's going on inside that
brilliant scheming little mind of
[snorts] yours. Uh [laughter]
yeah, that was that was Yeah. Um [sighs]
I don't I'm thinking because I'm
thinking it's kind of like um I don't
want to say I'm not even sure what the
charge would be. It's not like they like
>> I guess it's probably mail fraud.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> And maybe the threat for HUD
>> and mail fraud like you you can get like
20 years 20 year maximum sentence,
right?
>> But so he's also has a criminal history
category. Yeah. But you only got two
years for sending fake anthrax out.
>> But you're in prison [laughter]
>> and you've got an extra criminal
history. And I'm pretty sure I don't
know what the time frame is, but
>> one, you're in he's now got an extra
criminal history because he's is in
prison, but two, I'm pretty sure that if
that they they give you an enhancement
of another criminal history point if
you're if you commit another crime while
on probation.
>> Yeah, I know that's true.
>> Okay. So, I feel like that's two.
>> Like, so even if I was going to say,
"Ah, he's going to get about a year."
He's not getting a year anymore. You're
going to have to really jack it up. So,
I think 33 months seems
>> 33 months. Little shy of three years, a
little more than two years.
>> Yeah. Cuz it's it's just the the
stupidity of it. It's it's almost like
you want to say like this guy doesn't
have a chance of getting out. It's
really not about
>> the possibility of him pulling this off.
It's that
>> is that he he doesn't know that,
>> right? You know, his intent is he thinks
he's going to be able to escape prison.
>> Well, this is a new Matt Cox for 2026
because it sounds like you're really
sticking to your guns that 33 months is
the way to go for this guy.
>> Well, I also know guys that have escaped
prison
>> really.
>> Yeah. And didn't get recharged.
>> They actually just lost time or they
they they hit him for like gain time
like, you know, they lost like 35
months. I know a guy that actually
walked away from a from a um camp
>> and was caught like three years later.
He's caught and they bring him back. Of
course, he goes to the medium now and he
got uh I want to say he he got like 34
or 36 days taken away for good time.
Like that's it. Now keep in mind he said
couple months later he got caught
stealing bread. You know, you just take
a couple piece of bread, put it down
your pants. He got patted down and they
found the bread at the chow hall. He got
54 days taken away for the bread.
>> It's like lay miz,
>> right? But my escape, [laughter] like my
escape, I got 34 days. So, yeah. So,
sometimes they don't even charge him,
>> right?
>> But let let's say 33 cuz he's such a
such an idiot.
>> Well, I I tried to talk you out of it,
but uh so 33 months, he got an
additional five years.
>> I feel like I did my part.
>> It's not It's It's four. I'm like over
40% off.
>> [ __ ]
>> Yeah.
>> Five years. He's an idiot.
>> Yeah, he's he's an idiot who ought not
to be out on the streets. He's an idiot
who ought not to be impregnating people.
He's an idiot who ought not to be uh
writing letters. They need to take his
stamps away.
>> Oh my gosh. Yeah, but he sounds like
he's harmless.
>> Yeah. Talk to me about healthcare in
prison.
>> But what am I? I'm three. I You're 0 for
three. But I will say if you hit it on
the head, you get double the points.
>> Oh, is this the rule for 2026?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> All right. Fair enough.
>> I'll try not to feed you the answer like
I did last episode. Uh, talk to me about
health care in prison. Like, um, was it
good, bad? I mean, the price was right,
but um,
>> you get what you pay for.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> It's not good.
>> No.
>> You know, it's funny. I could You could
tell you I actually have the story.
>> I mean, I can I've seen three or four
people just die that have gone to
medical over and over again for
>> Talk to me about what is at medical and
I'm going somewhere with this. Is it
doctors? Is it nurses? Is it paramedics?
Is it just like a inmate who with a can
opener? What is it? It's like a what are
the RNs that can prescribe medication?
>> Nurse practitioner.
>> Yes. Yeah. So, it's one of those and
everybody and and they'll call them
doctor. So, they'll have one local
doctor for like the whole common complex
>> that supposedly is monitoring
everything, but usually it's just some
doctor at a hospital who's letting them
use their license. And the the
>> the nurse practitioners are the ones
that you see. And when you walk in and
you tell them what's wrong, they type it
on a computer. So, you're saying you
have a rash? You're like, "Yeah." And
then, "Does it is it itchy?" Okay. And
they type it all up and then they come
back and they go, "Okay, here's what's
wrong." And you know, you're like, "You
have a but that's not what's wrong."
Like I I've been here before too bad.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Um and and so yeah, that's what happens
is that they they just don't really have
anything. They give you some medication
or they give you whatever medication
they're allowed to give you, like, "Oh,
you should get this medication, but this
is what we're told to give you." And
it's like, "Fuck." It's interesting to
me that someone would go to the trouble
of being a nurse practitioner, which
kind of means you could write your own
ticket, and chooses to work in a prison
or a corrections environment.
>> Well, you're not going to believe this,
but nobody gets to the top of their
field and ends up working for a prison.
[laughter]
>> A lot has gone wrong in these people's
lives. Okay. And you can tell like
>> even the medical professionals that you
were
>> Yeah. I mean, listen, the it's it's a
there's a lot of broken English, you
know? It's a lot of broken English.
>> Interesting.
>> Oh, so what is the problem? You know,
like, oh boy. Yeah. I just thought maybe
some people just like the idea of a
government job with a pension and things
like that.
>> Listen, every once in a while they'll
bring in like um the military. So
they'll bring in like military guys and
it's like like these are these are
>> like trainees. Do you think like
>> I I think what happens is sometimes they
get so like people have quit
>> and so they it's like an emergency and
we have to bring in people like doctors
from the military to come swoop in and
help
>> and they'll do that and so 3 months
later they'll have they'll have a new
guy and he'll be there for 18 months
then he leaves and then you know what
the this is the funniest thing.
>> Mhm.
>> Do you know what was decent at at uh as
far as medical is concerned? Dental.
Now, it's slow, right? Like, you're not
getting a cleaning every year,
>> but I had them rebuild a tooth. Like, I
had literally broke a tooth off and they
went in. He was like, "I can pull it."
He's like, "The truth is he's" He's
like, "I think I can rebuild this, too."
>> Now, help me out. Is that dentist an a
federal employee of the US Bureau of
Prisons or is he on contract or is he
like is it a side hustle where he's
billing out by the day or how does that
work?
>> Yeah, I don't know, man. They don't. But
but I I they I do know they're there
pretty much all the time and they're
giving cleanings and they're giving uh
their sometimes they're just pulling the
tooth. Like you got a really bad cavity
and it's like okay I can pull the tooth
or I can and a lot of these inmates are
idiots like they're like just pull it
bro just pull it like
>> a big gap in your mouth.
>> Yeah. Like what are you talking about?
These are [ __ ] teeth. But I know a
lot
>> get a YouTube show like that.
>> Yeah. So uh but yeah. Yeah. They It's
funny because I would put in and I you
know probably only had my teeth cleaned
three or four times in the 13 years. But
I have had like they they will fix stuff
in the state.
>> Mhm.
>> Like all they got, you know, it's like
if you if you only have a hammer,
[laughter]
>> every problem looks like a nail.
>> Every problem looks like a let's pull
that [ __ ]
>> you know.
>> Interesting. So about 45 minutes from
Detroit, 45 miles from Detroit, there's
a federal prison in Milan, Michigan.
>> Okay.
>> Low security facility housing about
1,600 male inmates. Fun fact, uh John
Dillinger served time there in the
1930s.
>> Oh,
>> yeah. [clears throat] Nice.
>> Uh the prison employed a dedicated nurse
practitioner. We're going to call her
Allison. And she provided on-site
medical care to the inmates.
Um our subject though is 24year-old
Taiwan Gray.
When Taiwan was 18, he went to state
prison for criminal sexual conduct. And
when he was out on parole, Detroit
police caught him carrying a stolen gun
and then he went to p federal prison
then for being a felon with a firearm.
So that's how he wound up there. He was
sentenced to three years in this Milan
uh prison. Okay, so just giving you some
background as what brought him there.
>> Okay.
>> So one day, nurse Allison is performing
a medical checkup on Taiwan and
something happened and the inmate
snapped. He grabs Allison's throat,
smashing her head against the wall. Bam,
bam, bam. And uh then he grabs her
wrist, preventing her from radioing for
help.
>> Okay,
>> there's no corrections officer there at
the time, probably in violation of all
sorts of policies.
>> Allison fell falls to the floor. Taiwan
knees her in the abdomen and starts
choking her, strangling her out.
Blackness is coming for poor Allison.
And then another inmate who I'll say is
a hero. You may not say he's a hero, but
I'll say he's a hero. Sees what's
happening and springs to Allison's
rescue, dragging Taiwan off the nurse
until corrections officers could get
there and intervene.
>> Okay,
>> saved her life. I say that's what I say.
You may not say it. I say that nurse
Allison's taken to the hospital and
she's treated for her injuries and let's
hope she's doing okay. Bless her heart.
But this attack took place on a federal
reservation, which means that the FBI is
called in to investigate this attack.
And uh the investigation culminated in
Taiwan being charged and pleading guilty
to this assault on a federal
reservation.
How much extra time is Taiwan going to
get at the end of his sentence for
attacking nurse Allison?
>> Um I don't think we've ever done an
attack. No, this is a family show. Um
[laughter]
>> Manson family. Um,
God, you know,
it's so funny because like violent crime
doesn't get that much time in the
federal system, but it's against an
>> it's inmate on inmate.
>> Yeah. If it's inmate on inmate, but if
it's inmate on civilian,
>> which pretty much what she is.
I'm I'm gonna
>> And this guy's off the I'm going to say
like I'm gonna say another 10 years. Say
10 years.
>> 10 years.
>> Yeah. Yeah, he tried to choke her to
death.
>> He tried to choke her to death and he's
criminal history at the end and it's
once again you're incarcerated. He's
already been
>> Let me say it differently. Only 10
years.
>> Only 10.
>> I mean, this is functionally attempted
murder. I mean,
>> I think we're at 10. So, I said,
>> yeah, 10 years.
>> We're going to stick with
>> 14 14 years.
>> 14 years.
>> 14 years.
>> I don't mean to push you up. I could
push you down, too. I I'm just I
[laughter]
have the joystick here
>> and guys in the comments are like, "Bro,
he's playing you like a like a fiddle,
bro."
>> All right. I mean, let me again, Taiwan
has a history also. I mean, I know I'm
>> assuming at least two with a firearm,
criminal sexual conduct prior to that.
Um I mean, he's only 24 years old. Um
this takes place on a federal
reservation and Allison's a pretty
sympathetic victim, right? This is not
some inmate.
>> Is it a federal prison?
>> Yeah,
>> it's a federal prison. Federal
reservation.
>> I mean on an Indian reservation.
>> No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. A federal
reservation is the term for any land
that the federal government owns. Not
Indian reservation. That's a different
term. Federal reservation. If if I
murder you at the Pentagon, that's a
federal reservation. If I murder you at
city hall, it's not
>> right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 14 years.
>> 14 years. You're going with 14 now.
>> 14 years.
>> Okay. You feel comfortable with that?
>> She didn't die.
>> Wow. You're so heartless. [laughter]
[snorts]
>> I want to know what happened to the guy
that that yanked him off.
>> I do too. I do too. Is there And I tried
to and they did research on that. Is
there any mechanism to give him some
favor?
>> Yeah, of course. If you look I mean of
course there's a rule 35. They they
could cut his time in half or let him
out say maybe he was four years from the
door.
>> His name was never publicly disclosed.
There wasn't any
>> they don't want to get hurt.
>> It was it wasn't in the case file
involving [snorts] Taiwan's case.
>> Okay.
>> All right. So we tell me let's move on.
Where are we with with Taiwan? We're at
44 months. 144 months.
>> 144. That's 14 years.
>> That's just That's 12. What am I saying?
Anyway, 14 years.
>> 14 years. Okay. Correct answer. You're
going to love this. 10 years.
>> Do you see what he did there? [laughter]
You see what he did there? I still got
it though.
>> Uh,
>> wait. 14 and 10. Oh, listen. All right.
I'm going to the bathroom. [laughter]
>> We can both use a break.
>> That is such [ __ ] That is such
[ __ ]
>> All right, we back.
>> We are back and we are 0 for four. We
are almost two for four.
>> [ __ ]
>> But we are 0 for four.
>> Be amazing if I pitched a no hitter.
>> Um
>> I should win if I get 20. If I get 20 I
I this
>> 25.
>> I mean
over you're saying I have to get over
50% like I don't know what the rules
are.
>> Yeah. [laughter] First day on the show.
>> Have you met Carol from HR? Yeah. Um,
you've talked a lot about your prison
experience and uh and I've learned a lot
from you on that. I have not heard you
uh because I don't watch your show. Um,
talk talk much about your experience at
a halfway house,
>> right?
>> Um, what's a halfway house like? I know
you used it as a dating pool and a way
to meet girls and, you know, maybe
audition a bride or two, but um, but
what's it like in the halfway house? Is
it restrictive? Is it just like living
at home with your mom? Is it what's what
um give me a short version on what's it
like in a halfway house?
>> Um you sleep.
>> Is it a house? Like is it physically
like
>> No, not usually. Usually it's like it'll
be attached to let's say a a Goodwill,
you know, Goodwill will have an
operation, right? They're selling
whatever stuff and then they'll attach
it to like a huge area in the back. And
let's say you've got and they're all
they're all different, right?
>> Like a homeless shelter.
>> Yeah, like a homeless shelter. It's all
different. Sometimes it's it's they'll
have separate rooms. They'll have like
10 guys per room, something like
sometimes it's a big room and you'll
have, you know, 80 guys in a big room
just bunk bed after bunk bed. A little
bit of space, but what they do is they
count you just like prison. You're still
in technically you're still in the
Federal Bureau of Prisons
>> custody.
>> Custody.
>> Yeah. And so what happens is they help
you supposedly help you get a job and
then you check out in the morning. You
go to your job, you come back after the
job. They take they used to take I've
been told that they don't do this
anymore. When I was there, they took 25%
of your gross.
And so and then you have to save 10% or
20% whatever is left over. They make you
go open up a a savings account and you
have to save money. And I saved way more
than that.
>> Uh but yeah, that was it. sitting, you
know, they feed you like when you leave
they give you like a bag lunch. Uh
>> like like mom when you're heading off to
second grade
>> and everybody would complain like oh the
bad I'm just going to buy a lunch. I'm
like you're going to buy a lunch like
buying a lunch like it's 15 bucks a day
for for five six days a week all you
know I do the math and it's like look
I'll eat I'll eat the [ __ ] baloney
sandwich. I'm trying to save money,
>> right?
>> So uh yeah, but it's it's very
restrictive, right? Like if you don't
have a job, you have to clean all the
time. Um they're counting you all the
time. They make you miserable while
you're there because they want you to
get a job. And a lot of these guys are
just jerkoffs. They don't want to get a
job. They just want to just want to go
to home confinement. And you know, these
there's you're not going to believe
this. Inmates, federal or state, are
just not typically the sharpest uh
knives in the drawer. And but yeah, it's
it's uh and I think most of them from my
understanding almost I don't think I've
talked to anybody that hasn't said that
they're they're not all they're all um
uh co-ed, you know, they're all all of
them. So there's always men and women
and
>> obviously not living in the same giant
bed.
>> No, you have a men room, you have a
men's room and but yeah, that's that's
it. But it it does suck and keep in mind
like you can't drink, you can't all the
>> Does it suck because you you've tasted
freedom now or is it just such a joy to
be there after after actual prison or is
it about the same?
>> You know what I'm getting at?
>> I think it's worse.
>> It's like pulling out a thorn like, "Oh
my god, this halfway house is the best.
I I can't believe where I was a month
ago in this federal detention center."
But
>> no, because I think the
>> No, I do not.
>> It feels like confinement.
>> Oh, it's absolute confinement. It's
worse. And And I've I've almost
everybody that's been in one and they're
all different. Like I said, most people
would tell you if they could do the rest
all their time in prison and then just
go straight home, they would.
>> I of course had no money. So I'm
grateful for getting seven months and
being able to save money. I was I was
like terrified of of I I know guys that
they let out. They have no money,
nowhere to go. Okay, report within 48
hours to your probation officer like
where am I going? Like they leave you at
the bus station. Like what's happening?
>> Yeah.
>> So that's why I was thrilled because I
could save money and I did. I saved a a
good chunk of money.
>> Um but a lot of guys down, you know,
after it it is it's still confinement.
It's still confined. It sucks.
>> Interesting. Let's talk about a guy, uh
Latavis Mroy, 28-year-old fellow. Um he
served 85% of his sentence uh for bank
robbery.
And then he's released to live in a
halfway house in Orlando, Florida.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. And um and he generally
>> What was his name?
>> Uh Latavis Mroy. M A C K R
>> African American gentleman.
>> Yes. How'd you know [laughter]
>> with the name with Mac? I mean that that
you might think Irish.
[laughter]
Shim Gordon. I'm Latavus Mroy. Always
after Lucky Charms.
[laughter] Um
>> Oh my god. We're gonna get some some FL.
I don't know how you figured it out. Um,
because he generally behaved himself, he
earned the right to a weekend home pass
to spend time with his family.
>> Nice.
>> Yeah, pretty good. And so during his
first weekend home pass, he robbed a
bank.
>> I was going to say he robbed the bank
>> using a demand note. Oh,
>> okay.
>> Okay. Uh, next weekend gets another home
pass and uh he robs one bank on Friday
and two on Saturday. So he's got four
bank robberies under his belt during his
halfway house two weekends in a row.
>> Stepping it up.
>> Problem is Latavis when he left his
demand notes behind. And the problem
with that is that the FBI, having been
there myself, is pretty good at lifting
fingerprints off of paper. You just
spray it with stuff and they this purple
thing and and it comes uh and the
fingerprints come right out. [snorts] Uh
further investigation found that Latavis
was wearing clothing in his current
halfway house wardrobe and [snorts] uh
during the robberies
>> and cell phone geol location placed him
at the site of all four [snorts]
robberies
>> and his ankle monitor [laughter]
and the pass he requested said I'll be
going by the bank. No.
>> As you can imagine, this criminal
mastermind was arrested and charged.
He's putting the cuffs on him. Had you
figure it out?
>> Well,
>> well, he took it to trial. Oh,
>> and he lost.
>> No.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. The evidence was pretty good
against Matavis, our Irishman.
>> Um, given that fact scenario and the
fact that he was at the halfway house
when he did this,
>> how much time are you going to get was
he sentenced after his trial?
>> There were notes.
>> Demand notes.
you're still in custody.
>> Volume, [laughter] there's also a volume
factor here,
>> right?
>> Um, uh, jeez,
>> I don't know the content of the, uh, the
demand notes, but let's say they
threatened violence if you didn't hand
the money over. It wasn't pretty,
please, give me the money.
>> Right?
Most guys I know that use a note get,
you know, if they're free, they've never
been in trouble before, they get three
or four years. But this guy is off the
chart. So, let's say
I'm going to say 120 months. I want to
say I want to say 180, though. I want to
say 15 years.
>> You're a hanging judge today.
>> I don't [snorts] believe a thing you
say. Um [laughter]
uh I say 120.
>> 120.
>> 120.
>> All right. So, that's 10 years in
prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Probably think he gets another
crack at a halfway house when he gets
out. Does he get the the 85% deal?
Um,
>> does he honest question?
>> I was gonna say I don't [clears throat]
know. I wouldn't if I was his counselor
I'd be like I don't know. [laughter] I
don't know. Let Latavius.
>> Uh, yeah. Lucky the Irish. Um, yeah. Uh,
no. He did not go into another halfway
house. He does not get another.
>> He has to serve every day of the the
what you think is going to be 10 years,
you said. Or do you go 15?
>> I'm going to go 10.
>> Okay. And the final answer?
>> Yeah.
>> All right. Uh, the judge sentenced him
to 20 years [snorts] in prison.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. It was a note. Four notes.
[laughter]
>> Wow. And he went to trial.
>> Yeah. I was going to say he went to
trial. If if you know, you get penalized
for going to trial. But still,
>> cuz if he had plead guilty, he probably
would have got
>> I don't know. They might have been
offering him five or 10 years if he just
plead guilty.
>> Yeah. I don't know why he went to trial.
>> No, he's an idiot.
>> Yeah. Should have known better. Poor
Leavis still there today.
Um,
this is this is there's a lot of Irish
guys [laughter]
to keep him company. They could All
right. Corn beef. Uh, ever do time with
the X Cup?
>> Yes. Several.
>> Yeah. What were they?
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Interesting. What were they in for more
generally?
>> Um,
cor either corruption or like like
taking bribes. Yeah.
>> Uh or I was locked up with I want to say
Justin. I forget his name. He's the cop
and he's out now. He's the cop that was
in New York that uh beat beat up a
suspect and then took the was it the
broom the broom handle?
>> I remember that case. Yeah. Yeah. Right
at the hoo-ha.
>> He got 30 years.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh yeah.
>> Here's a question. Do the police
officers have a tough time in prison?
like are the other prisoners like out to
get them and stuff like that? Like I I
always thought about that as a former
law enforcement officer. If something
went sideways in my life and I wound up
in prison, would I be a target?
>> No, because you know like
it's
>> or do they have any special protection
or something?
>> Yeah, I was going to say it's hard to
say this without because there's there's
always you know you always say the
majority, right? What the majority and
then there's some idiot who comes in and
says no. Well, I know this one guy
that's one guy, jackass. You know what
I'm saying? like the overall
>> the prison is trying to not have people
killed.
>> You know, there may be, you know,
instances where things have, you know,
didn't work out that way because of
prison guards, but the system in general
is not going to take a a correctional
officer and place him in to the pin in
general population. They're going to
say, "No, no, no, no." And plus, if it's
not violent, they're going to give him
the benefit of that. They're be like,
"Look, let's send this guy to a low uh
someplace that he could be protected."
Mhm.
>> Um I mean, not that there's not there's
not danger there, but I don't really see
that you get like at Coleman it wasn't
that big of a deal. Even if even if
other inmates didn't like you, as long
as you're not an [ __ ] you're
probably going to be fine.
>> Yeah. Greg Junior was there. He was a
guy who in Atlanta they served a a kind
of like a fake no knock warrant
>> and they kicked in the door of a retired
school teacher in a um you know in a
shitty neighborhood and that so they
kicked in the door. She wakes up in the
dead at night and basically
thinks she's being broken into.
>> Yeah.
>> And she pulls a gun out when they come
through the door she fires and she
shoots Junier right in the the right
through the vest. Right. the upper bed
and they shoot and kill her
>> and it was um
>> and it was because they were they
thought
they were going into a drug house.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
>> Yeah. Cuz they grabbed a in they grabbed
a a guy and they took drugs off him and
they said, "Tell us where you got the
drugs and we'll let you go." So he said,
"Okay." And he gave him the address. He
just misdirected them or
>> he just gave him a fake [ __ ] address.
And they went to a judge and told the
judge that
>> they had a
>> they told the judge,
>> "We have a like a certified um
informant, an informant's always given
them good information." And so the judge
signed off on a no knock warrant. They
go to the house, they kick in the door.
This
>> old grandmother
>> thinks she has a home invasion
happening.
>> Think she's having a home invasion.
Turns around. As soon as they come
through the door, she fires at him, hits
Junior, and boom, Junior executes her.
Wow.
>> How much time did Junior get?
>> What's his crime?
>> He murdered. First of all, it's just the
whole unit.
>> I mean, let's let's establish that the
whole thing is a nightmare. But but I'm
trying to think of what what what crime
he was given bad information,
>> right? They grabbed they grabbed a a
drug. So, they pull over a car, they
search the car,
>> they find drugs, they steal the drugs to
resell. It's a complete I missed that
part. Sorry.
>> Right. Right. So this guy that gave him
the information, that guy, they don't
even know that guy,
>> right? It was a the cop was also he was
robbing these robbing dope dealers and
the whole thing was going to be a
ripoff. He was not looking to make a
case,
>> right? And then they
>> That guy gets 15 years.
>> That that the Junior
>> Mhm.
>> Uh Junior got
I want to say and I probably
>> What does What how you spell his name?
>> It's Junior.
>> Okay. Junior last name.
>> Yeah. No, they know his first name is
Greg. His last name is Junier. And you
said Atlanta. Atlanta, Georgia. I'm
gonna say in the state he got like for
the murder he got like
five or six years,
>> but they ran it.
>> The civil rights violation on the
>> civil rights violation got him
>> four or five years and he went to or
maybe seven years or something like that
and so he's got to serve his state time
in federal prison which he he's not
stupid.
>> That's a good deal.
>> Yeah. that when when when it all started
falling apart, he was the first one to
go to the [ __ ] FBI.
>> Yeah.
>> First one out of the gate like, "Hey,
boom, I'll make a deal. I'll give you
all these guys." He gives up his whole
unit.
>> He had a lawyer giving him very good
advice.
>> Kept all of his money that he'd been
stealing for 10 years.
>> You hate to hear that.
>> And uh and the whole time he was locked
up with me, complained about how he got
too much time. And I mean, I literally
remember sitting there with him at the
front desk when you walk in the unit
because he was our head orderly at the
time.
>> And I went
>> he was complaining because he got like,
let's say he got seven or eight years.
>> He was getting I want to say he was only
doing five total like four or five.
>> And he said and he was like he said,
"Yeah, well I I I should be I should be
getting out now." He said if the [ __ ]
judge had gone with what the
recommendation was but the [ __ ] he
gave me the top end top end of the
guidelines. And I was like bro I mean I
said what what do you expect?
>> Yeah.
>> And and he went he said uh I said I mean
let's be honest bro like you killed a
woman. He she shot me. I go you broke in
her house. [laughter] And he was like
you don't understand.
>> Pretty sure I do.
>> It's amazing what how people can
rationalize their behavior.
>> A retired school teacher.
>> [ __ ] yeah. 92 year old lady in
Atlanta.
>> 92.
>> 92.
>> I was about to say she was probably 75
or
>> she got off a shot.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh
>> she's a gangster.
>> He was sentenced to six years in federal
prison.
>> Six years in federal prison
>> on top of his state crime or
>> his state. So whatever the state was,
the state was over long before or before
Yeah.
>> his right. So his before his federal was
up.
>> So he was smart. He knew he wanted to
send his do his time in. Listen, not a
lot of people talk to Greg.
>> I can imagine. Not a lot of inmates talk
to Greg. A dirty cop who's setting up
drug dealers, stealing everything they
have, and then breaking in other drug
dealers houses.
>> I'm just surprised he didn't have to
live with his head on a swivel.
>> Yeah, this is straight training day.
>> Yeah,
>> straight training day.
>> That's amazing. Let's talk about Jason
Rodriguez. Uh he was an NYPD officer who
allegedly story he told people quit the
force because he was making so much
money trading foreign currencies. Forex.
I don't know how anybody makes money on
Forex.
>> Well, he wanted to share his strategy
with other people, right? And he's an
ex- cop. And so, everyone's like, well,
he's got to be legit. So, he forms a
company called Technical Trading Team,
TTT, and begins taking money from other
people, telling them that he um had he
was totally safe because he had put
guard rails in on his trades to prevent
any kind of trading loss and there would
be only upside to the business. He was
telling them that he can make 18% to 24%
per year trading forex. Who are you
going to trust? You're going to trust an
ex cop, right? Um well, you know, and I
know, Matt, there's no such thing,
[laughter] right?
>> Yeah. You're already He's already in
major trouble. You can't profit.
>> He takes in $4.8 [snorts]
million from investors and begins
spending the money on himself.
>> I was going to say, what do you buy?
>> Uh luxury car, uh rental, least them, um
expensive vacations, and just other
personal expenses. Um, now in his
defense, he did try trading foreign
currencies with some of his clients
money. And like most people who dip
their toe into the forex waters, he got
his ass handed to him and lost a bunch
of money. In which case, he figured out,
well, this trading thing is clearly not
going to be a good idea for me. I need
to preserve the capital, but I also need
to keep my investors happy. So, he
starts paying the investors out using
their own money and the money from new
investors in what we call
>> a Ponzi scheme.
>> Right on. You've learned a thing or two.
Uh, so the net loss to the investors
when he ran out of money was $2.3
million.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Got that? So, um, eventually this
house of cards collapses. It always
does. He stops paying people. They call
the FBI. FBI investigation reveals that
not only was his investment program a
big fat scam, but the reason that he
left the NYPD after seven years of
service was because he was not because
he was a wildly successful trader. You
might be surprised to hear Matt Cox, but
it was because he got caught committing
some misdemeanor crimes and there was a
big internal investigation on him for
these disciplinary infractions and
stuff. And so he resigns from the force
in disgrace and then begins launching
this Forex Ponzi scheme.
>> Okay.
>> Um he gets indicted on fraud charges, uh
pleads guilty. How much time you going
to give Jason the ex cop? Let's assume
that there's no real criminal history
other than those misdemeanors that were
causing him problems.
>> Again, the amount of money he took from
investors was 4.8 million. The net loss
to those investors was 2.3 million
>> because you'd been paying them back with
with their own money.
>> So the net loss
I'm going to say 60 months. Did you do
you know pro maybe 48 48 months? What do
you think? 48 months.
>> What are we asking? This is one player
per hand at the poker table. What do
they call a a Ponzi scheme before the
Ponzi?
>> It's a good question. I don't know.
>> Before Peter Paul.
>> Yeah. Peter Paul scam.
>> Yeah. Peter Pauling robbing Peter to pay
Paul. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh okay. So,
uh
>> Okay. So, let me let's go through the
factors again. So, we have a loss of 2.3
million bucks. I don't know how many
investors there were, but let's say it's
a lot. Let's say it's in the you know 20
30 40 range. I don't believe I shouldn't
believe him.
>> Well, no. I mean, it's not one rich guy.
And but we also have the factor in
aggravation that this guy's a former law
enforcement.
>> A position of trust.
>> I think that's kind of the ultimate
position of trust. And he's clearly
trading on that, right? Like, listen,
I'm a former NYPD cop. I left the force
because I, you know, was making so much
money trading forex. I want to share
that with you.
>> Look at my new leased car.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm I'm living
like a baller and you can, too. I'm
going to guarantee you 18% to 24%.
>> I think you're trying to hit
>> and I put I'm just recapping for the
audience. It's not for you, Matt Cox.
It's for the audience. I'm here in
service to them. I'm uh I'm with them.
>> And so I guess I'm asking you how much
time he was sentenced given all of those
aggravating and mitigating factors
because he pleaded guilty.
>> 60 months.
>> 60 60 That's five years.
>> 6.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Are you sticking to that?
>> Yeah, I am. Boy, if it's 48 months, I'm
quitting. You seem real irritated.
>> I'm leaving if it's 48 months.
>> Okay. Well, it's not 48 months.
[laughter]
>> Oh my god.
>> The correct answer is 36 months.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Three years in prison.
>> I still would have missed it at 48.
>> You did. [laughter]
>> This is such a I was just The first
couple I did pretty well.
>> First couple of episodes.
>> Yeah, we did.
>> That was 10 episodes. We kept score and
like the last three or four or five
episodes it was
>> I've been decimated.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay, Colobe. I like you to put your
interns on I want an individual story
score, not an episode byep episode
score. Like we've done
>> what a dozen times what 10 of these or
whatever. Eight of these, you know, like
we're at like 120 stories. I want to
know what Matt's score is on that thing.
Put your interns on it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, like I will
>> get get the interns.
>> Get the [laughter]
ones massaging my feet under the table.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Have you put all these into a a a
playlist?
>> A playlist.
>> Why don't Why would you What are you
doing? People love these. Some people
would binge watch the entire thing.
>> Or some people didn't say do Yeah.
Create a playlist the same thing as its
own channel like the Tom and Matt Matt
kind.
>> Yeah. Go for it.
>> That's the whole because I'm saying
>> and people in the comments have been
asking for that,
>> right? I don't know. I don't know about
that. But I mean, I know that people
have been saying like they'll watch an
episode and then they'll be like, "Whoa,
this is the third episode. I love
these." It's like, "You've watched three
episodes, there's 12." Like, they don't
really know that there's 12.
>> Well, yeah, YouTube's just bad, right?
Because you got to scroll got to go back
in time and scroll it or Yeah. It's It's
not user friendly.
>> If they're watching now and they go to
the homepage, there will be a Tom Simon
playlist.
>> Yeah. No,
>> because think about if they you got
these guys that like it, if they like
one episode, they just binge watch all
of them. Yeah, for sure. I mean, at this
point it's, you know, it's be 36 hours
of content. Damn near. So, uh, more
money for you.
Ever serve any time with any crooked
politicians?
>> Yes.
>> No, I'm joking. I don't know. Let me
think about this. Hold on. Uh,
uh Oh, see, I if I could I wish See,
it's it's horrible. If like if I could
ask one or two guys, they'd be like,
"Fuck yeah, remember so and so."
>> Yeah.
>> Um I can't remember. Law enforcement.
Yes. But and judges
serve time with uh um a couple of
judges.
>> Yeah.
>> But they're elected
>> in state side. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Just curious. I was on a political
corruption squad for several years and
uh and I always sort of wondered what it
was like for
>> I did bribe I did bribe a uh um a c a
council member who ultimately became a a
county commissioner and he eventually
was caught up in
in a bribery charge and then fought it
and went to prison.
>> Did you testify?
>> I've tried. Boy, I tried. Um no, the FBI
actually came to talk to me about it. Uh
but
>> by the time and I we had you know we
talked a few times and then like a year
later he got indicted. The problem was
the it's only like the statute of
limitations is only like three years or
four years or something on so by the
time so they weren't able to charge him
for my bribery.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh and so no I was never so I wasn't
in directly involved in the new case you
know and then I guess you know I was
kind of hoping like they'd call me
>> be like a 404b witness.
for other bad acts. Interesting.
>> Well, Alabama State Representative John
Rogers has been serving the people of
Birmingham, Alabama as an elected
official for 40 years. Nice.
>> Imagine being in office for 40 years. He
was also corrupt as hell. Okay, so
here's a story. As part of his job in
the state legislature, he had access to
a fund for community development and he
was given $400,000 into that fund in
discretionary money to fund a local
youth baseball league for lowincome kids
in Birmingham. Right? Can you think of
anything better? Right? These kids in
Birmingham,
poor as heck, and now that he's going to
have a he has $400,000 to form a
baseball league for them. You know,
we're talking bats, we're talking mits,
we're talking umpires, we're talking
assistant coaches, uniforms and all
that,
>> right?
>> But Big John wanted a taste for himself.
Matt Cox, it wasn't good enough to give
the So, he forced the league's executive
director to give him a $200,000
kickback.
>> Gee,
>> half the money. These kids can play with
half that money. 200,000. I want
$200,000 for myself or your league gets
nothing. That's what he said. Nothing.
I think they still do get everything if
this guy played his cards right because
what's that money going for just sitting
in an account like you got to give us
the money right?
>> Uh didn't work that way.
>> It sounds like he's in charge of doing
this out. I mean he's he's John Rogers.
So the FBI catches wind of this and
launches an investigation. And uh then
what John does, he starts trying to
obstruct justice by offering a witness a
bribe to tell a another witness to give
and whether he gives one witness a bribe
and tells them to lie to the FBI. And um
yeah, and so and that fails. Uh his
cover up fails. He gets federally
charged with the with you know whatever
bribery, embezzlement, whatever it was.
And um but he was really cocky. So
standing on the courthouse steps, I'm
going to do this in John's voice.
He said, [snorts]
"I am so innocent, I ain't even worried,
and I look forward to a court date. I
wouldn't do anything that stupid. This
is going to be a royal affair. I will
enjoy kicking their asses." That's what
John said in the courthouse steps after
his arraignment. Can you imagine?
>> Did he go to trial?
>> Oh, a little cocky. six months of this
bluster and [ __ ] he finally pleads
guilty.
Six months of it um to fraud and
obstruction of justice. As part of his
plea agreement, he agrees to resign from
the Alabama House of Representatives.
So, good riddance to bad rubbish there.
Um thing is, he's 83 years old.
That's what happened. So my question is,
how much time is John Rogers going to
get for shaking him down and stealing
$200,000 from the baseball kids? Matt
Cox,
>> I don't even know if he'd do any time
really, but I I feel like he's in a
posed position of trust.
>> It is, but he's also provided service to
the community for 40 years.
>> You would paid for that. You're fine.
Um, [laughter]
I'm not taking that into consideration.
>> Think of the children, Matt Cox. They
just want to be shortstoped.
>> I I think I think another judge I think
a judge would be pissed about it.
>> Another judge would be I would think
another judge would be like, "What the
[ __ ] are you doing, bro?" You know what
I'm saying? I'm saying a judge I
understand he's a politician, but I
would think that a another elected
official like a judge would be like,
>> um,
>> yeah, promise is federal, right? So
there's no the those judges are not
elected.
>> Oh, yeah. They're appointed.
>> Yeah.
>> Either way, I'd be irritated. How much
time is John Rogers going to get in
prison for his misdeeds?
>> I think he'd get probation, but I'm
going to say three months.
>> Three months in prison.
>> He's an old man. He could die in prison.
It'd be a life sentence.
>> Could be a life sentence, right? 83 83.
>> And he's been humiliated. And let's face
it, like I admittedly there's kind of a
victim, but it's not like there's, you
know, like it's like the the victim's
like the taxpayer. like, you know, and
you we all know the politicians could
care less about the taxpayer. Um maybe
three months.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Cuz he's an old man. He's been
embarrassed. He's been humiliated. He's
going to be
>> fall grace. It was a fall from grace.
>> Yeah. He's he's Yeah, it's no good.
Three months.
>> Okay. Is that your final answer? Yeah.
You seem pretty comfortable with that
one.
>> I think he should get three months.
>> All right. Well, um he got 13 months,
>> [ __ ]
>> I'm giving you that one.
>> How dare you give that to him? Under
[laughter] under what rule are you going
to give him? There's just not not much
variance
>> man between 13 months a year one year
and one month and the 90 days that Judge
Weakling here is going to give him.
>> That's within a year. Within a year very
or within a year that's [laughter] the
rules.
>> It's 20% of 20% of the months and 20% of
the years is the same thing. 20% of
point of 20% of one point whatever
whatever there there's no [laughter] way
he got that. I'm not trying to I'd be
thrilled if he got it. I'm on team Matt.
But
>> you really think he deserves a he 13
months?
>> Absolutely.
>> Really?
>> Absolutely. This person is a piece of
[ __ ]
>> Yeah, I know he's I I understand, but I
mean he could die in Again, this money
was for underprivileged kids. We can
laugh about that, but that's a thing
that keeps that keeps young people out
of prison and stuff like that. These
youth programs.
>> I I understand they got half I'm not
saying he's not a piece of [ __ ] but I'm
saying, you know, you you kind of got to
look at like he he's super old.
>> You're also not thinking about the
obstruction of justice. He's out there
trying to get a witness to lie and um
he he plead guilty to fraud and
obstruction of justice. I said
>> I mean I think he should do time in
jail. I thought he was going to get
probation.
>> I know you did.
>> But because let's face it because
because of the dollar amount,
>> right? Dollar amount's not astronomical.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not outrageous.
But again, I think the dollar amount
understates the societal harm that he's
doing by defunding this youth baseball
program.
>> Do you know what bothers me the worst is
that he was because of his I like asking
for half the money for a kickback.
>> Yeah.
>> Like how how are you expecting to like
how do you say this is worth 400 this
was 400,000 or this is 400,000 when it's
only two? Like does that make sense?
Like you're
>> explain
>> like you're you're definitely gonna get
caught. You're you're greed. Like if you
said, "Hey, give me 50." Yeah.
>> Then you can say three 350,000 is 400 is
you could spend 350,000 and say, "Yeah,
we spent 400." And people are going to
be like, "Yeah, that's probably about
right." Yeah.
>> But we spent 200,000 and you're saying,
"No, we spent 400." They're going to be
like, "I don't know. You got ripped off,
bro. Like this isn't 400,000 worth of
[ __ ] worth of money."
>> No, I agree. This thing was destined to
fail.
>> Yeah. He's
>> And got it. Listen, you think this was
his first time doing something like
>> No, I was just thinking that. How long's
he been doing this? How bold are you to
say, I want half the money for the
kickback?
>> Yeah, I agree. All right. So, you giving
him a point for that, Colby?
>> One for seven.
>> How do you again
>> within a year? That's within a year.
>> It's not within a year. It's within 20%.
>> Yeah, but you know, if it's [snorts] if
it's at like one year, it's hard to
>> No, you're think
>> he'd have to hit it on the dot on the
head almost.
>> No, he could get the number of months
right. the the variance between if you
call it five years and 60 months 20% of
that is the same amount of time.
>> I am shocked I'm getting any of these
right. I haven't got anything right. I
>> Yeah. Yeah. Tomorrow
>> come in the comments people.
>> Tomorrow we might have to go up to 25%.
You know, depending on the rel the
result of the last one, it might have to
go up or down.
>> This is not easy.
>> You're thinking in terms of years. These
things are in months. 20% is the same
thing. 20% is 20%. Doesn't matter if you
we did it in days. Still 20% is the same
amount of time.
>> How upset he is.
>> I'm not upset. [laughter]
>> Well, he was wanting he was wanting the
shut out.
>> No, no, no. I don't I I'm always rooting
for you, but I want you to win under
legitimate terms, not because you're
highly paid employee.
>> You don't know me very well. [laughter]
>> You're because your employee has his
thumb on the scale.
>> Looking for a win. Period.
>> All right. All right. Well, let's stick
with the crooked politicians. And this
one involves a church.
>> Okay. You know what's so funny is that I
I was telling Jess when I was trying to
pick mine. I was like, you know, the
problem is I said almost always
>> Tom is picking like uh embezzlement, you
know what I mean? I was like, they're
always embezzlement. I was like, I don't
really have any embezzlement, you know?
So, I was like talking to Jess about it.
Yeah. I was like, so I'm just going to
go with people that I know. So, instead
of sticking with embezzlement, I said,
I'm going to stick with people that I
actually have met and know the case. And
so, that's why where I came up with my
cases. And then we get here, man, you
got you got guards, you got
>> Well, I'm I try to mix it up for the
audience. I mean, like at some point
they're going to fall asleep if we do
the same type of case again and again
and again. So, I always try to do a
poperri.
>> If you sleep hot at night, you know how
disruptive that can be. When you're not
resting well, everything else feels
harder. Your focus, your mood, even your
recovery. Ghost Bed is here to help you
fix that. They've spent decades
perfecting how to build a bed that's
comfortable, durable, and designed to
actually help you rest. Every Ghost Bed
mattress features premier materials,
proven cooling technology, and their
exclusive Procore layer, a targeted
support system that reinforces the
center of the mattress where the body is
heaviest. It helps keep your spine
aligned and your back supported so you
can wake up ready for anything 2026
throws at you. Each mattress comes with
a 101 night sleep trial and a 20 to 25
year warranty, so you can try it risk-f
free knowing it's built to last.
Shipping is fast and free. Most orders
arrive in 2 to 5 days. Ghostbed has
great prices to begin with, up to 50%
off comparable brands, and inside True
Crime listeners can get an extra 10% off
sitewide for a limited time. Just go to
ghostbed.comcox
and use promo code cox at checkout.
That's ghostbed.comcox.
Promo codec cox. Upgrade your sleep with
Ghost Bed, the makers of the coolest bed
in the world. Some exclusions apply. See
site for details. So the Mount Calvary
Calvary Baptist Church in Philadelphia.
They employed 68-year-old Willie Jones
to be a deacon in the church. And the
pastor put him in charge of taking up
the collection at church. You've been to
church? You know, they take up the
collection from the the good people. And
he's also Williey's also in charge of uh
making the deposits and paying the bills
for the church.
>> You got one man in charge of too much
stuff.
>> Well, he's trustworthy. He was not only
a deacon in the church, but he was also
a popularly elected Democratic ward
leader in Philadelphia's 44th ward. And
uh and he also had a salaried job as the
director of operations for state senator
Vincent Hughes. Right? So this guy has
one foot one foot firmly planted in
local like kind of grassroots politics
and one foot firmly planted in his local
grassroots church.
Um, what neither organization knew is
that he was stealing from both of them.
At the church, Willie was issuing checks
to himself and then recording them in
the church's accounting records as
reimbursements for non-existent
expenses.
Okay. The pastor was not keeping an eye
on the books. He trusted Willie and uh
Willie stole $57,000 from the church in
82 fraudulent instances.
Okay. So, we'll go through the numbers
again later when you're coming up with a
sentence. Okay.
>> Meanwhile, in his political job, Willie
begins using the debit card of the ward
office to pay his personal credit card
bills and fund a family member's
funeral.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And he doesn't
>> He didn't stole enough of of the money
himself to fund it himself.
>> Nope. He did this without the permission
of the Philadelphia Democratic Party.
and he was able to keep the scam alive
for four years, stealing $86,000 from
the local Democratic Party office.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um I don't know, and I tried to
figure it out and find out which
embezzlement case was caught first, but
my impression is that the church
probably discovered the fraud loss first
and then the FBI begins looking into his
bank account and then they then the FBI
uncovers the political theft. doesn't
really matter for guidelines purposes,
but I had several cases like that where
one victim contacts me. I begin looking
in the subject's bank account. I'm like,
"Oh, this guy's in up to way more than I
thought." Right?
>> That I think that's what happened here.
>> Why would the FBI be involved in a
church embezzlement, though? I would
think they would get involved in a polit
politics first. Like politics falls
under the FBI, [clears throat] doesn't
it?
>> Any kind the any sort of fraud involving
mails or the mail or wires could be
could in theory be the FBI. I
>> dollar very low dollar amount.
>> It is. It is. And uh the sad fact is
that local police, especially in a city
like Philadelphia, are often not fully
equipped to handle financial crimes.
>> Okay.
>> And maybe the fact that this guy was was
a politician of sorts in Philadelphia um
also just sort of triggered the idea of
the FBI coming in um because having
local authorities to it may be perceived
as a conflict of interest. I think
there's a lot of reasons why you could
justify this as a federal crime. Okay.
And I've certainly investigated smaller,
dumber crimes myself. Um, any case,
Willie uh rolls over on both cases,
pleads guilty to the two schemes in one
omnibus charge. The cumulative loss is
$143,000.
Um, and that's pretty much how it went
down. Pleads guilty. Um, how much he's
68 years old because I know you
>> three months. Three months is what
you're saying.
>> Yeah. If he gets any time at all. Three
months. Three months.
>> Three months.
>> Yeah.
>> Are we Are we
>> I don't even think he should get three
months.
>> Are we relying on the Colby rule here
where if you say three months, he gives
it to you regardless of what the
sentence is?
[snorts]
>> I I think if I'm within
um Listen, wait, this is
>> within a year, I'm going to get I'm just
going to give it.
>> Oh my god, we are really moving
[laughter] the goalpost here.
>> Three. I mean, it's the dollar amount is
so low.
>> If if
>> and I get a position of trust
>> due to the Colby rule, why don't you say
364 days? That way, you have a much
broader range for him to uh to give you
a freebie.
>> Six months. Three months. Three months.
>> I'd like you to say it from the heart,
not because you're being tactical.
>> Three months.
>> Three months is your guess. Is that
final answer? Yes.
>> All right.
>> The correct answer is 12 months. And as
we know, if when you guess three and the
answer is 12, that's within 20%. And so
you get the point, I guess, huh?
>> Within [snorts] a year.
>> My god. For eight. [laughter]
>> Two for eight.
>> Don't you think it's harder like a a
year sentence, it's harder to get within
that 20?
>> No, Colby. Because a month is a number.
There's a number of months and that and
within 20% of that is is a number. And
uh and with just like it is wait if we
said 120 months it's still you can still
compute what 20% of that is.
>> Yeah. But I feel like you're you're it's
easier to hit like a 20 year sentence.
>> It's your show. It's your show. I don't
care. I have no dog in this fight. I
just know I know what the comments are
going to look like.
>> I I I
>> And it also is two of eight. It also is
two of eight.
>> I get no joy out of Matt loan.
>> I I don't believe that.
>> Right. I get no joy out of this. I I
would love to see you get 12 out of 12.
I want this thing to succeed. I want you
to succeed, buddy. What do you know
about diplomatic immunity?
>> A lot. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. Talk
to me about your thoughts on diplomatic
immunity. Does it make sense? Um, yeah,
sure. I think so. So, anything any any
dwellings that the diplomats are are
occupying are basically like it's in
their own country. Same thing with the
embassies. Same thing with their
vehicles, right?
>> It's more than that. If I go out and
commit a murder, if I'm a diplomat and I
go out and and I'm assigned to bank
Thailand, I work for the state
department there. I live in an apartment
uh in Thailand and I commit a murder. I
murder some lady boy in Thailand
too much. It it stretches pretty far.
Yeah.
>> Now, the problem and we'll get into the
story here is that I may face justice in
my own country uh you know for
embarrassing the US government and
committing those crimes. There's laws on
the books that make make that so.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, yeah. So, American diplomats working
in foreign countries, they enjoy
diplomatic immunity from any kind of
foreign prosecution and and and it goes
both ways, right? Um,
and so we have 63-year-old Dean Chie.
He was a US State Department employee
who worked at the US Embassy in the
Philippines. Okay. During his time in
the Philippines, he developed a WhatsApp
relationship with a local 15-year-old
girl. No bueno.
>> No.
>> And he pays her to make him sexually
explicit videos that she would send to
him on WhatsApp for his own enjoyment.
Okay. So, he's paying a 15-year-old
girl.
>> I don't get the I don't get it. You
know, I've never understood that. the
pictures and the videos and the like.
Okay.
>> During that same window of time
>> and and he's in the Philippines and
she's in the Philippines.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, then why do I need to think you're
in the Philippines? Like I'll just come
over,
>> right? Like like you know
>> Well, okay. With her with her, he has a
a texting relationship. Um and she's
making videos and sending them to him.
He has a second person though, a
16-year-old Filipino girl. um he was
actually in a physical uh sexual
relationship with um and he was filming
his sex acts with her.
>> Okay.
>> The problem is both of these things were
happening on his US government cell
phone.
>> Okay.
>> Maybe you see where this is going.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> I'm assum he's in trouble no matter
what. I mean he's he's just getting to
make it or make it easier for him.
>> So there's an agency that I really
enjoyed working cases with the US State
Department Diplomatic Security Service.
>> Okay. They handle investigations
internally of State Department people
who do bad things. They handle security
at the embassies, kind of coordinating
the Marines who guard the embassies. And
domestically in the US, they investigate
passport fraud. They're a very good
agency and uh and actually I know two
FBI agents who left the FBI to go with
the State Department DSS because they
had the travel bug and wanted to see the
world. They also provide protective
service to the secretary of state. So
like I guess Marco Rubio has a
protective service from those guys.
Anyway, Dean's love of sexual momentos
kind of sealed his fate when the um
diplomatic security service office of
special investigation seizes his phone
and finds all the evidence in it of him
having sex with a 16-year-old Filipina
and the text messages and the payments
and all that. So, he gets char even
though now the Filipinos can't charge
him. Uh he gets charged in the US.
>> Would they would they even care? Like
for them,
>> I don't know what their age majority is.
Yeah, I I know a lot of dudes who are
really up on ages of majority in all 50
states and foreign countries. Not a
preoccupation of mine. Uh he gets
charged in US District Court in
Alexandria, Virginia for engaging in
illicit sexual conduct in a foreign
place is the charge and pleads guilty.
Okay.
Um how much time you going to give him?
>> He plead guilty. Like if he gone to
trial, he'd be in real trouble cuz they
charge you like per
photo and the the way it works is the
the videos. They'll break up the videos
into every single like, oh, it's taking,
you know,
>> 60 photos per minute and you end up h
having, you know, 55,000 photos for that
>> 4minute video or something like oh my
god.
>> So, um
>> I know he served in the Philippines for
four years. I have no idea how what
window of time and and how many
instances were on the phone, but
>> but if he enough he pleads guilty. It
could be 40 videos. If you plead guilty,
they'll drop it all down to probably
one.
>> Yeah, I'm sure it was one count.
>> Um,
>> but the judge gets to find understand
the totality of the conduct.
>> He I mean he he is a toucher, so it's
not just photos.
>> Yeah. No. Yeah. He had a uh ongoing
sexual relationship with a 16-year-old
Filipino girl in the Philippines while
working for the US State Department with
diplomatic immunity.
>> I knew a guy at Coleman. I want to say
he got like 12 years. He got like 12
years for something similar. He wasn't a
State Department, but he was in the
military. Um
let's say Yeah, I'm gonna say let's say
12 years. All right. Even though we have
two victims.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm thinking maybe
10 years. Let's say 12 years.
>> You sure about that?
>> I mean
12 [snorts] years.
>> Yeah. I guess you're super cocky now
that we have the uh [laughter]
>> it changes nothing because the 12 the
the tw did 12 year. Yeah. 12 years. The
one year mark is less than that. So
>> So it's one year or 20%.
>> Yes. Yes. That is the new rule.
>> The new rule.
>> I think it should Okay. All right. Well,
we'll talk. We'll talk. We'll talk after
this is over. We're going to
renegotiate.
>> Like changing your pants mid [ __ ] Yeah.
[laughter]
>> All right. Your guess is 12 years. Yeah.
>> Well, congratulations. You won this one
legitimately because the correct answer
is 15 years. He got
>> All right.
>> Is that Is that right? It
>> is. 20% of is is three of 15 is three
years. So you you nailed it.
Congratulations. You got one point.
[laughter]
>> You a comic book guy or I think we
talked about this. The fact comic books
>> you need What's up?
>> Go get them.
>> Wow. That's the Joker.
>> Yeah.
>> It's amazing. And you did that?
>> Yeah, I did it. And
I did
>> How much of this is you painting and how
much of this is sort of a kind of
collage that you created with the art
that pre-existed?
>> Okay. No. So, this is I cut out
>> panels from comic books.
>> Yeah, panels from comic book. And I glue
it down
>> and then I cover it. Uh, seal them all
up. Well, I mean, they're all glued. I
seal them up. Got squeegee out the
bubbles.
>> And then I got a screen a a silk screen.
Yeah. And I silk screen Batman. And I
Well, I paint or I paint it. I do an
underpainting, then I silk screen it.
So, it looks like a comic book.
>> Yeah. And it's fantastic.
>> And that's it.
>> Yeah. If I have not kissed your ass
enough, I love your art. You're really,
really talented.
>> Thank you. And so I was going to kind of
try and start mass-producing those just
to have something, you know, fun to do
and sell.
>> You like set up a booth at Comic-Con and
sell that stuff.
>> I don't I don't know. I I have so many
little side I listen, I have so many
ridiculous side projects that I start
and then I don't finish.
>> And that's one that And actually, we're
having a guy who's a professional artist
>> whose name is Art Williams, who's a
>> like one of the most famous counter
>> an artist named Art. Yeah.
>> And he actually is in Chicago now and
has his own art museum. Museum? No, art.
What do they call it? Gallery. He has
his own GA art gallery where he
showcases his own art and other people's
art. He's coming tomorrow. No,
>> Monday.
>> Monday. He's coming Monday.
>> And I wanted to show him these cuz I I
took pictures of him and sent them to
him
>> and he he and I told him I want to see
him because I was like, "What can I do
with these?" And he because he saw
those. He's bro, I can sell those.
Absolutely. Like I sell those for sure.
>> Wow. So, I want I want them to actually
see them in person as opposed to a
photograph. Like, really be serious.
Like, if you're serious, I can start
making these.
>> That's so cool.
>> Yeah, I like them.
>> You ever been to a comic book
convention?
>> No.
>> No. [laughter]
>> I'm uh No.
>> You know, all you have to really do is
go into the comic book stores and it's
and see the guys behind it arguing about
the the the number 12 uh original
>> Batman. I used to work at a comic book
store in high school and college and I
was not like a comic guy. It was just a
job. and uh and I would also also work
the uh conventions for the store and uh
it's an interesting breed of people
there.
>> Yeah. [clears throat]
>> So, uh fellow named Brian Brandenburgg,
he founded Salt Lake Comic-Con.
Uh the problem is that Comic-Con is a
registered trademark uh for the real
Comic-Con in San Diego. And so Brian had
to pay $4 million for the trademark
violation for his lack of ability to do
a Google search for his Salt Lake
Comic-Con.
>> Okay. I don't know how that works, but
>> I mean I'm assuming at some point you
can't I can't just open a store, a
restaurant, and call it McDonald's and
put up the Golden Arches.
>> No, I understand. But I'm saying how do
you hit him with that much of a fine? Is
that just a automatic thing or did they
sue him or
>> I'm sure it was I'm sure it was a
lawsuit. So, his comic convention
rebranded as Fan X.
>> Nice.
>> And but Brian had to take a permanent
leave of absence um because he had
>> made some bad decisions.
>> He also was sexually harassing some of
his employees.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Allegedly. Um so he relocates to Hawaii.
I'm done with Utah. Utah was not very
very good to him. And he was and he was
also getting a divorce in Utah. Divorce
in Utah. And so he just wanted to get
away from the whole thing. And uh so the
Utah courts were taking a while to rule
on his divorce. Sometimes these things
crawl through the system rather slowly.
And so Brian sent an email to the clerk
of courts in Utah in wherever he lived.
I imagine Salt Lake City. And the email
said, "So go [ __ ] yourself, all of you.
I guess I'll just have to bomb the
city."
>> So it sounds like he's taken a page from
uh what's his name's playbook? The first
guy we talked about. So he follows it up
with more emails to court employees
saying he was going to bomb the
courthouse, the University of Utah, the
mayor's office, the Sacred Mormon
temple, and every Ivy League school, as
well as the federal courthouse in San
Diego, where he previously had his ass
handed to him in the lawsuit involving
San Diego Comic-Con.
Um, so my former colleagues in the FBI
in Honolulu, they pay Brian a visit and
they read him the emails and Brian
confesses saying, "Yeah, I sent the
emails to pressure the court in Salt
Lake City and get their attention."
>> Well, you did.
>> Mission accomplished, right? So, the FBI
places him under arrest and um instead
of taking a plea deal after confessing
to the FBI, the Dum Dum goes to trial.
>> Mhm. and uh the jury finds him guilty on
seven counts of sending email bomb
threats.
Okay. Uh he was actually being held in
jail uh you know during the course of
the trial and um and all that and
awaited sentencing in jail. Then they
finally brought him out in the orange
jumpsuit and he was sentenced. How much
time you going to give Brian
Brandenburgg?
48 months.
>> He went to trial.
>> He did. He He He did.
>> And he did this again and again and
again and again and again.
>> Yeah. He He He's a [ __ ] Yeah. I don't
doubt that.
>> He was [laughter] He was a CEO.
>> Uh
but, you know, it's like I don't know.
The problem is I I would be taking it
into consideration
I would take into consideration the fact
is that this guy was not going to do any
of these things. head.
>> Yeah, he's just a a jerk off, but he did
go to trial and they hate that. So,
that's why I'm saying I was saying most
likely they would have had him plead
maybe he got 12 months at at best, but
going to trial, okay, let's say 48
months,
>> I don't know, maybe it's a little bit
more than that, but I'll say 48 months
since I don't believe you and your your
>> I'm just asking
>> your concern about my answer one way or
the other. [laughter]
>> Boy, you you got a real burr in your
saddle today. [snorts]
>> Uh, your answer's 48 months.
>> 48 months.
>> All right. Well, I tried to help. Uh,
correct answer. 70 months.
>> See, he wasn't trying to help.
>> Sure. You did it again and again and
again and again and again.
>> You a cruise guy? You like going on a
cruise? Like a Carnival cruise? Royal
Caribbean cruise.
>> The only cruise I've ever been on is a
European cruise. Uh, was it Norwegian? I
don't know. European cruise.
>> Yeah. I think they probably have like
true crime cruises.
>> They do. They absolutely do.
>> We got to get booked on one of these.
>> I know that we should.
>> Crime Con has a cruise.
>> Seriously,
>> Crime Con? They do have a cruise.
Listen, here's what bothers me about
Crime Con. Crime Con? I actually sent
them an email one time, like I filled
out the form to do to be one of the
speakers.
>> I did, too.
>> Yeah. I never heard from him.
>> I Yeah, I never heard from him either.
Yeah. I've done it twice. And
>> I don't know who's running this thing.
>> Yeah. And who's bigger than you and I?
>> No one.
>> But on the But we were talking about
doing a live show at some point. The
idea of getting booked on the Crime Con
cruise. Us three go. We bring our ladies
and uh we get a free vacation out of it
and we do the uh we make the magic
happen.
>> Honestly, I think if we just we probably
get free tickets if we just said, "Hey,
here's what our social media presence
is. Here's the true crime thing." They
might say, "Hey, we just want these guys
on there for the fans because they'll
recognize that.
>> Oh my god, it'd be amazing for them to
see us. We don't even have to do
anything. I'll give a little speech or
we could do this or whatever." It'd be
like like going on a cruise with like
the uh like Bel Bib Dvau or some of the
hip-hop stars of the 1980s and uh Oh,
>> that is or just some you know they have
music like Train that band has a cruise
and stuff like that and so so uh will
you get one of the interns on that Kobe?
>> I will and I will make a clip out of
this. So there's a potential that it
just gets shared around and uh who knows
that should definitely happen.
>> All right.
>> Do you love true crime? then it's time
to experience it on a whole new level.
Inside True Crime has launched a brand
new documentary channel, Dark Docks, and
we're taking our best interviews and
transforming them into powerful 1-hour
documentaries with cinematic
reenactments.
>> And he just looks me dead in my face and
he says, "I'm going to [ __ ] kill
you."
>> Immersive music,
>> they pulled up beside us
>> and cleaner storytelling. You'll see
these cases like never before. Subscribe
now to our brand new documentary channel
where every story takes you deeper into
the criminal underworld that we know you
crave.
>> If um if we were to go on this cruise,
would you hit the dance floor?
>> No.
>> Really? You're not a dancer?
>> I'm not a dancer. You don't want to see
me dance. It's like it's like watching
me jog. Like I'm not built for jogging.
I jog like a like a tank.
>> How about you, Colobby? You going to hit
the dance floor at the cruise?
>> I would. Yeah. The last cruise I went
on, me I won Mr. chicken legs for doing
the dance. You know, they do like the
little dance thing right when
everybody's getting on. So,
>> okay. So, here's a question. If you were
to go into the dance floor at like the
nightclub there,
>> would you wear shoes or or dance
barefoot?
>> Oh, me? I wouldn't be at the nightclub.
I'd be at the casino, but I would
definitely wear shoes.
>> You would dance at the
>> I dance at the pool deck, you know,
where everybody's out.
>> Okay. So, so you may not be wearing
shoes dancing on the pool deck.
>> Pool deck. No shoes. Nightclub
[clears throat] shoes.
>> You know what's great is that Jess
doesn't dance. Oh, no. I I've I feel
like Did you ever see that's a catch
because most ladies are like, "Come on,
dance with me. We're at the wedding.
Dance with me."
>> Did you ever see the Seinfeld where
Elaine dances?
>> [ __ ] It's hilarious. I mean, she's
the worst. I don't even know how they
came up with her dancing. And I picture
Jess dancing like that like Elaine. It's
like It's painful to watch. I mean,
she's like she's all like
It's great.
>> We got to make this happen. We got to
get all six of us on a cruise. Yeah.
Fantastic.
>> All right. So, Kenneth Dorgio, he was
the CEO of a mortgage company called
First American Financial, a $6 billion
title insurance and settlement firm.
Okay. Big company. He's the CEO. He
takes his wife Nicole on a cruise on
Virgin Voyages ship called the Resilient
Lady. Would it be nice to be on the
Resilient Lady with your lady? So, it
was after midnight. So corny. Go ahead.
[laughter]
>> It was after after midnight in one of
these cruise ships uh dance floor
cocktail lounges things and Ken and
Nicole are there having a drink. They're
having the best time. It's like a second
honeymoon for them. I mean, you know,
and um and there's a bar guy there in
the bar.
>> We'll call him Mike.
>> And Mike is dancing and drinking and
having fun, you know, just one of those
guys is just like uninhibited in the
bar. But the thing is, Mike was dancing
with no shoes on his feet.
Huh. All right. Unlike Colby who would
insist on wearing shoes at the dance
club. But something about this barefoot
dancing really repulsed Nicole. She's
not into it and it's seething inside
her. She's watching him. He's dancing.
He's having fun.
>> But this isn't her husband.
>> No, no, no. It's just this dude Mike, a
dude that she she's with her husband.
They're like having cocktails together
in the uh in the cocktail lounge. But
she's she keeps looking over and she
sees the son of a [ __ ] Mike dancing
with no shoes on and it's making her
crazy.
>> Who does he think he is?
>> Who does he think he is? So Nicole walks
up to him and says, "Look, we're all
grown-ups here. Will you put some shoes
on?"
>> Oh, Karen.
>> Mike was having none of it. Mike was
having none of it. He says, "Shut up,
you effing bitch." But he used the
effort, the real effort, right?
>> And uh and then he holds up his middle
finger to Nicole.
>> Okay.
CEO Ken is there and he sees his bride,
his soulmate, getting disrespected by
Mike the Barefoot Dancer. And CEO Ken
snaps into a rage.
I'm going to effing kill you. He
screams, lunging at Mike and grabbing
his throat like Thanos. [snorts]
I feel like there's some alcohol
involved in this whole.
>> Mike later tells investigators that CEO
Ken was strong and that Mike thought he
was going to have his throat ripped out.
The bartender snaps into action,
breaking the two men up and calling ship
security, who reviews the surveillance
film of the assault.
Ken was sent back to his room until the
boat docked. Go to your room, Ken, CEO.
And boat docks in Puerto Rico. and he's
met there at the disembarkment by the
FBI agents in Puerto Rico because crimes
on the high seas, Matt Cox, are
automatically FBI jurisdiction. What are
you gonna do?
>> Yeah.
>> Um, Ken is charged with assault on the
high seas. And so I'd like to hear from
you how much time he got.
>> 12 months probation.
>> 12 months probation. No prison time
whatsoever.
>> No.
He could have ripped this guy's throat
out. Mox, not buying it. [laughter]
>> No,
>> not buying it at all.
>> All right, I'm not going to torture you.
Uh, you get the point. The case was
dismissed at the request of the
government, but what happened is he got
fired from his job as CEO of the $6
billion company um for embarrassing the
company. Um, but before you cry for him,
he got a $18 million severance package
when they fired him. So, this uh this
barefoot dancer could have been the best
thing that happened to him financially.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Justice.
>> Are are crimes upon the cruise ship or
in the high seas like the the ones on
the air?
>> Yes.
>> Where it's just like, hey.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. There's just no one else. So, I I
did a murder on a a cruise ship once. I
I investigated a murder on [laughter]
>> Let me make that clear.
They never found the girl. [laughter]
Yeah. But um yeah, same thing. So
anyway, you get a point for that. No
prison time for CEO Ken Deorgio.
Get about $18 million payday. What do
you know about insider trading?
>> I mean I I watched the wolf of Wall
Street. That's
>> That wasn't insider trading.
>> That wasn't
>> No, that was a moneyaundering. That was
a pump and dump.
>> Oh
>> yeah. Insider trading is when I work at
a company, I get information about
something that's
>> Yeah. No, I know what insider trading.
>> I'm just making sure you understood
because
>> Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Oh, all
right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
Pumping. Yeah. Yeah. No, because he was
creating the companies and pumping them
up and dumping.
>> No, they were real companies. They were
just green sheet uh stock companies.
Then he was creating uh he was getting
people he was buying a bunch of shares
of it, getting people to then his sales
staff were getting a bunch of people to
buy the shares at an inflated price,
driving, right? and he dumps his shares
and makes money before the these, you
know, worthless stocks collect.
>> Well, the public's is the public's the
public's the public has bought thinking
it's going up and then they get
>> because he has these like high pressure
sales people.
>> Yeah.
>> Entirely different than insider trading.
Insider trading is is
>> I find out we're getting a government
contract. This company's about to get a
government contract to build five subs.
>> More often than not, it's earnings. Like
I'm in the accounting department. I know
that we are going to have a kick-ass
quarter coming up and uh and that that's
going to make the stock price go up, but
it hasn't been publicly released that
we're going to have a kick-ass quarter
or earnings per share. And so I buy a
bunch of shares and all that
>> or you're going to have a a horrible
quarter and so you short all the stocks.
>> Same thing. Insider trading is insider
trading. So we have 40-year-old Desant
Gupta of Hillsboro, New Jersey. He had a
big secret. Matt Cox had a big secret.
He was the director of data strategies
at a drug company called Ipsson
Biofiharmaceuticals.
Now the company's based in [snorts]
France and developed medicines that
cancer patients can use to kind of
alleviate their pain and suffering. But
one day at work, Desant finds out that
his employer is going to be purchasing a
smaller drug company in Massachusetts
called Epazyme. Okay, we're going to be
we're going to be buying this company.
But Desant, don't tell anybody. This is
hush hush. It hasn't been announced yet.
>> Epazine was a publicly traded company on
the NASDAQ and Desant is sitting on some
very juicy nonpublic information. Matt
Cox,
>> okay,
>> imagine how heavily that must be
weighing on him to know this.
So, he knows that if he goes out and
buys a bunch of Epzyme stock, he could
get himself in some trouble. So, Desant
got cute, got clever. Over an 11-week
period, Deshant bought over 300,000
shares of Epazime stock in his wife's
brokerage account. He's thinking.
He's thinking. [laughter]
3 days after the acquisition was
announced, the stock price goes up and
he dumps his shares in his wife's
account and he makes a cool $260,000
in profit.
>> Nice.
>> Yeah. Never been easier money than this,
Mad Cox. What could go wrong?
>> That seems flawless to me. [laughter]
>> Well, one thing he forgot is that the
Securities and Exchange Commission has
some pretty sophisticated software
running about these type of trades where
someone buys something, the stock price
jumps up, and then it's sold right
afterwards. And it didn't take them very
long before the SEC started smelling a
rat. Now, as you know, but maybe not
everyone in your audience knows, the SEC
has no criminal authority. They're very
good investigators, but they're a
regulatory agency. No one has ever gone
to prison. and no one from the SEC has
ever put handcuffs on anyone. What they
do is they call their buddies at the FBI
to come in to investigate this jointly
with them and make it criminal.
>> It's a good deal for the FBI because you
got the SEC and their expertise in this
area. And it's a good deal for the SEC
because the FBI put some teeth and
muscles behind their investigation. And
that's exactly what happened. The FBI
investigation culminated in securities
fraud charges against Desant Gupta. He
pleads guilty.
And again, he made $260,000 profit off
of this thing. But insider trading is a
funny crime because the victim is sort
of the system itself, right? There's not
a one person who lost $260,000.
It's just him cheating him as an insider
uh cheating to make that money off the
market itself.
>> How much time are you going to give
Dashant Gupta no criminal history?
I'm 18 months.
>> 18 months. A year and a half in prison
for what some might argue is a
victimless crime. [snorts]
>> I don't even know why you're talking,
man. [laughter]
It's going to be a great show if we're
going to not talk.
>> 18 months.
>> 18 months. Yes. All right. Well, you
seem hellbent on this.
>> 18 months.
>> 18 months. All right. You're holding
firm. Yeah,
>> you don't want to tweak that up or down
a little bit to
>> I wouldn't know which way. You haven't
you haven't you haven't
>> I I I'm not giving you clues. I'm just
saying that that one could argue and I'm
positive his lawyer did that this was a
victimless crime.
>> Right. I I understand.
>> Right.
>> I I but I don't I don't the fact that
you're saying that I don't believe that.
[laughter]
I'm assuming it's going to end up being
like eight months or something. But but
yeah, but I've already said 18. I'm
going to stick with
>> I mean, if you really think it's going
to be eight, you can change it to eight.
Cuz if I change it to eight, you're
going to be like, turns out I was 20
months.
>> Who knew? [laughter]
I'm going to say eight. I Well, okay.
I'll say eight months. You'll say eight
months.
>> Eight months in prison.
>> Eight months.
>> All right. And that Colby rule gives you
some latitude there, right? Because it
could if it was 20 months, you would
still win. And if it's zero months, then
you would still win because of the new
Colby rule, right?
>> Yes. [sighs and gasps]
Yeah.
>> Yeah. All right. So, eight months is
what we're going with.
>> Yes. Eight months.
>> All right. Now, you were very positive
when earlier and then uh now we went
down to eight. And so, I just want to
double check and make sure that you're
comfortable with this cuz I don't want
to hear any whining from you if it
doesn't break your way.
>> I feel like signing a confession right
now. And I haven't done anything. This
is how you wore it down. I just wanted
to get out of the room. [laughter]
>> So tired of my personality.
>> All right. Is she going with eight
months or are you going with the
original one? Well, I remember what your
original one was.
>> 12 months. I'm going with 12 months.
>> You're going with 12.
>> 12 months.
>> All right. All right. The correct answer
is two months in prison. [clears throat]
>> He also had to pay a fine of two of
$20,000 and he had to forfeit the
$260,000 he made. So, okay. Two months
in prison for Deshant Gupta. And I'm
assuming he lost his job as well.
>> That seems reasonable. That's fine.
>> Yeah.
>> That's all I got for you. Uh Colobby,
you want to give him the uh the enhanced
uh score with the with the curve? The
score as it stands right now with the
unofficial rules is five of 12. And Matt
has two stories.
>> I have two stories.
>> So now these same rules will be applied
to Tom.
>> Uh let's see. [clears throat] Let's see
here.
>> Let's see how good you do. See See See
how easy it is.
>> It's not easy. I already know it's not
easy. I wish you'd s I that's what I
should have done was had you send me
your little format. It's difficult.
>> Oh, hey. It's not that easy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I get it. It's not so easy
to do a daily uh two-minute crime story,
is it? Yeah, it's maybe it's uh maybe it
takes a lot of talent.
>> Well, your format is I was trying to
kind of copy your format, you know, and
I was but it doesn't come out of chat
GPT that way. I'll tell you that. You
got you got to tweak it a little bit and
move some [ __ ] around.
>> I got to tell you. Yeah, exactly.
>> And then I don't have the whole, you
know,
>> you need chat to that's where that's
where the that's where the money is.
>> Yeah. I don't have any of the cute
little, you know, you ever go to Bank of
America? [laughter]
>> Yeah. Do you like money? Do you like
gator? You like movies with gladiators?
[laughter]
>> You ever seen a grown man naked?
>> I don't have any of those. So, because I
thought about that later. I was like, he
always does a kind of a Yeah, like a
>> I got my written pencil on the top.
>> You know that funny feeling in your
tummy when a dog rubs up against your
[laughter]
I don't have any of those. I [ __ ] it. I
got to go. Okay.
>> All right. Tell me a story, Matt Cox.
>> I'm not going to be very good at this
because I I I should have practiced it
more. But let's say let's go with uh
>> I'm not Huh.
>> Have you ever been to Mexico?
>> Yeah. [laughter] Is that what I'm
supposed to start with?
>> Tom Tom Simon.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you like the Dominican Republic? I do
like the Dominican Republic. I've been
there twice on vacation. Really? It It's
always funny to me, and I'm probably
gonna get in trouble for saying this,
that the Dominican Republic is on an
island called Hispanola or Hispanola,
which actually is the same island that
has two nations on it. Do you know what
the other nation is on? It's Haiti
>> and Dominican Republic share the same
small island.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And the Dominican
>> That fence that fence means a lot.
>> Yeah. It's just crazy how there are two
very different cultures on the same
small island. And the Dominican Republic
side has been able to monetize their
their nation as a tourist destination
that's relatively safe and not a
terrible place to be. And Haiti is um
hell is not. LR.
>> Yeah. Well, you said it, not me.
>> Um,
>> now Haitians aren't going to hire me,
but yeah, right. I get it. Okay. Yeah.
So, that's my experience with the DR.
>> James Catage,
>> okay.
>> Worked for a company called
Impact Net Worth.
>> Okay.
>> They they specialize in financial
education and investment products.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So
they people give them money, they invest
it or they give them they they explain
where to invest it, you know, whatever.
Uh I'm not sure exactly how that works,
but the point is is that he's got a
large sales force and he's been doing
this for quite a while, you know,
several years. He's doing well. He's
he's at the top of the food chain of the
company. he is now his his customer base
because they do so many products for
them and they're so kind of ingrained in
their financial um aspects of their
life.
>> One of the things that they do is they
they're looking for different types of
investments for these people and real
estate is one of those investments that
they've been approached for. So it's and
he starts thinking that he should be
investing in real estate. So at some
point he is approached by a a fatherson
team a development. It's it's a a
father-son developer,
>> right?
>> Okay. Their name is it's it's Fred and
Derek
uh Elliot.
>> And the Elliots are looking for money to
develop houses. He has investors. They
could be they can match them up with
each other.
>> Yes. The Elliots are actually halfway
done with um with a hotel, condo,
a building or or development in the
Dominican Republic.
>> Got it.
>> Yeah.
>> And they need more investments to finish
the project,
>> right? They need more investments.
Exactly.
>> Got it.
>> So, uh first they meet them. I want to
say first they they get together and
they meet them and they pitch the whole
thing and and uh Catish feels very good
about the whole thing. Then I'm pretty
sure they fly them in to the Dominican
Republic to see to stay at one of the
hotels and see the development that's
partially built and what they need and
the whole
>> everything's legit, right? They look
over bank accounts. They look over they
do their due diligence. Everything's
great.
>> Okay.
>> Uh and and what they come to him and
they say, "Look, here's what we'll do
is, you know, you guys raise the money.
will continue the development and you
get a a portion of whatever you guys
raise and then your customers end up
with either like I believe it's
something like either a portion of the
hotel profits um and I believe also
there was something where they were
buying condos it was kind of like a you
know you get a condo something whatever
>> so
they raise a ton of money you know
>> this goes on so the first development is
completed within six months to a year
everybody's happy and by the way I want
going to say it was wasn't it Beyonce
and Jay-Z
>> Beyonce and Reggie Bush I believe
>> right were were there like these are
they're celebrities that they're raising
money for from celebrities celebrities
are coming in
>> it's it's very up and up and the what
was the name of was it was Maxim Maxim
magazine was involved the whole thing so
>> he feels great about it raises the money
gives them the money they build the
development every it's complete
everybody's thrilled they come in with
another development. Same thing happens.
Build another development. Everything is
great. Everybody's receiving the the
money. Everything looks legitimate.
>> This goes on for 5 years.
>> Okay,
>> they are now in the middle of the third
development. Okay,
>> they're supposed to be halfway done and
it comes to
Catl's attention
that
the money doesn't appear to be going
into development.
>> Interesting. It's being diverted
somehow,
>> right? They're saying, "Hey,
>> you've raised, let's say at this point,
whatever
>> there's 180 or $200 million, something
like that has been raised." and his
sales guys, cuz they actually have
salespeople like on on the ground, you
know, at the other development so they
can bring them over the new one. These
guys are going by and they're saying, "I
don't see $100 million in this
development."
>> Yeah.
>> Like there's something's wrong,
>> right?
>> Uh now, keep in mind that all of the
brochures
>> all of the uh all the marketing,
everything is handed to him from the
developers,
>> right? He's just a middleman.
>> He's a middleman. He's saying, "Hey,
this is what's going on. He's getting a
piece. Everything's disclosed properly,
whatever."
>> But Catage and his sales team are the
ones that are talking to the investor.
>> They have the facetime with the
investors. They who will ultimately be
the victims in this, I'm sure.
>> Right. This goes on for 5 years. They
build two hotels. They've never had a
problem. Like I said, he he realizes
something's wrong. Catage ends up hiring
investigators to do a thorough audit of
all the books.
>> Okay. They do the audit of the books.
They come back. They say, "Funds are
being diverted. The money's not going
into the hotels. There's a major issue
here." Catage immediately goes gets his
attorney.
>> Goes to the FBI.
>> Okay.
>> I want to say it is the FBI, right?
[ __ ] I should have written that down. I
I'm I'm pretty sure it was the FBI.
>> It's FBI or postal. I mean, there's the
only two people who would do this. It's
not a tax issue.
>> Yeah. I I feel like it's the FBI.
>> It's not Secret Service, so it's got to
be the FBI.
>> So, he goes there, he pitches, he
explains, they they say, "Hey, This this
is this thing may fall apart, but I'm
coming to you because I'm just the
middleman here. You know, I was ripped
off as well by Yeah, I was I was lied to
by these Elliots,
>> right?
>> I get it.
>> There's a an investigation by the FBI.
>> They indict they they indict the
Elliots,
>> right?
>> And they indict a few I want to say a
few maybe some of the salespeople,
maybe. I'm not sure, but we're not
really talking about them.
>> But they end up indicting Kage.
>> Really?
>> Yes. Okay. The allegations are that he
knew there was a problem and continued
to collect money from people knowing
there was a problem.
>> I I guess I guess they just I I don't
know. Whatever the reason was, it it
ended up say they ended up deciding that
listen,
>> you you were not following the
>> you're asking
>> even though he's the genesis of the
investigation. There was no
investigation already from uh
>> I've actually seen this happen a couple
times. I'm
>> surprised. So he ends up
>> fighting the whole thing. So he starts
he immediately gets attorneys. He starts
fighting.
>> Yeah. like, "Hey, I came to you. I
didn't know. These are my This is
crippling to the company. It's crippling
to my sales force.
>> I've been in and out with these, you
know, I can There's no emails. There's
no nothing. Everything I'm getting from
these guys, I'm handing over." And I
believe that's kind of part of the
problem. Yeah. But you didn't really
check to make sure any of this is good.
You didn't do your due diligence. You
didn't whatever the reason was,
>> right?
>> Um, always maintained his innocence.
>> He fights for five years and he's going
to go to trial. Okay.
>> His attorneys
end up convincing him to take a plea.
>> Really?
>> And and I remember he told me the
conversation they had where they he was
saying, "I'm going to I'm going I'm not
going to plead guilty to this. I'm not
going to sign something saying I'm
guilty."
>> Yeah.
>> And
>> never sign a plea agreement to something
you did not do.
>> Right. So he they said and I remember
the I believe the conversation was we
can you can do the next you know so many
years in prison
and you could the whole time you can
tell everybody how you were in how
you're innocent you know or you can do
this very little time in prison. You can
do a whole bunch of time and tell
everybody you're innocent but you're
going to prison.
>> Like I I I agree with you. I've seen it.
I think you're innocent, but I also
think that they're going to put, you
know, they're going to put 50 or 100 or
200 people on the stand that are going
to say, "You came to us, you told me to
invest half a million dollars. They're
going to get some old ladies on there
that are going to cry about how this is
their pension, their pension, and it's
gone and now they have to live with
their grandchildren's whatever. You're
done."
>> So, he gets he's concerned. He ends up
pleading guilty
>> and provides a false elocution about the
crime he committed at the at his
>> they went on for about I I think he said
three to six months they went back and
forth back and forth on what the
language of
>> negotiating the plea
>> negotiating because the things they
wanted him to say he had done or knew
of. He didn't know. He's like I'm not
going to say that.
>> Yeah. He would have to swear under oath
and and provide that verbal admit
culpability. You don't just walk in and
say I'm guilty. You have to walk in and
say, "I'm guilty and here's exactly what
I did."
>> And I believe that what he had said was
that at this point, you know, I should
have done this. At this point, I should,
you know, I this I that I, what is it?
What is the term that they use? Um, you
know, your,
>> you know, you knew or should have known.
Okay.
>> Right. I mean, right. Fair enough. Okay.
>> Willful blindness.
>> Willful blindness, right? Like willful
this should have keyed you off on this
and that. So, I think he that's more or
less what he kind of came up with.
>> Okay.
>> I'm not sure. Yeah. Once again,
>> right?
>> Always maintained his innocent, but
didn't go to trial.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So, and I'm I'm using this for the
as kind of an example, which you have
countless examples. Yeah. Sure.
>> Of the difference between going to
trial,
>> right,
>> and not going to trial.
>> That's astronomical.
>> I actually just interviewed a guy, uh,
his nickname is Red Bull. His name is
Andrew Levenson. Mhm.
>> And the whole time he was saying he went
to trial because he had like a was it
$50 million loss or $30 million loss,
something like that. And he was saying
I'm I he basically had to go to trial
because he was saying he's at the top
end of the guideline.
>> Yeah. There's no discount or he's like,
"So I I might as well go to trial." And
I was trying to tell him, "No,
if you plea, a lot of times they'll drop
a lot of the enhancements and you can
negotiate the money and you don't get."
He's like, "That's not true. That's not
true. That's not true." Okay. Right.
>> Whatever. You know, I I I've met
multiple guys that have $100 million and
they got x amount of years and it's like
>> the plea is a negotiated thing.
>> Correct. You have some foundation in
reality, but Yeah.
>> Yes. Okay. So, I want to give you what
So, here's what it is.
>> It's over 200
Yeah. Over 250 victims, I'm going to
say.
>> Okay.
>> Um,
he plead guilty to one count of mail
fraud.
>> Okay.
>> $180 million in loss.
>> Jesus.
>> And over 250 victims.
He
>> did. He cooperate against the Elliots.
>> Did not cooperate against the Elliots.
>> I believe the Elliots had already keep
this one. His plea negotiations.
>> Yeah. Well, he dragged out trial for
five years and then it was another year
or so, right?
>> When he play Well, when he plead guilty,
it was like six months I think in
negotiation, something along those
lines. Yeah.
>> Uh the the Elliots had already plead
guilty.
>> And they both got very little time.
>> Okay.
>> Um how much time? Hold on. No, I don't
you know, that's not true. I don't know
what they got.
>> Yeah, whatever. Um, I want to tell you
what the government because he told me
what the government was asking for. But,
uh, but anyway, 180 months, 180,000. Oh,
[ __ ] $180 [snorts]
million and over 250 victims. I believe
it's over two 250 victims. I want to say
he might have said it was less, but I I
don't think so because it's the dollar
amount so high. I could be wrong on
that.
>> Sure. Okay. So my analysis is basically
that the the guidelines are through the
roof on this thing, right? I mean it's
if straight up on the guidelines, he's
probably looking at 20 years, but the uh
>> but he never he no criminal history.
>> Right. Right. But and but I'm assuming
that the the plea agreement, you know,
willful blindness is not,
you know, it's a crime, but if that's
truly the way it was being structured in
the plea agreement, the judge might be
able to read between the lines. was an
impositive at the sentencing. His
attorney went on and on and on about how
this guy is not the mastermind behind
the scheme. This guy was an unfortunate
middleman.
>> Right?
>> Then you have that the the raw numbers
there just astronomical. So I'm going to
come in at
13 years in prison as his sentence. I
don't think that was justice, but I
think that's what he actually got. Uh
because the judge was probably trying to
be kind because the judge could have
given him all the 20 years. I think 13
is the is my guess.
>> Okay. Are you positive of that?
>> No, not at all.
>> No, [laughter] but you're not going to
change it.
>> Not gonna change it. I because I don't
have any better information that's going
to make me change it.
>> So, what's funny is he told me the whole
time during his plea, like you go in
that your lawyer goes on and on and on.
And the judge kept saying over and over
to him, are you sure you don't want to
go to trial? Judge has been there for
all the motions for five years. Like,
are you sure? You understand you're
saying this? You understand that? And
he's like, "Your honor, I
cannot risk going to a trial." He's
like, "I don't know. You know, the
government's asking for government's ask
was asking for 28 years. That's what
they want. That sentencing, that's what
they're asking for."
>> Sure.
>> Um
>> and like I said, the Elliots had already
been found guilty and gone to prison and
were willing to they're willing to
cooperate. Like they're willing to
testify. They'll say anything,
>> right? Yeah.
>> Uh so what he got was 60 months.
>> Five years.
>> Five years.
>> Okay. for a $180 million loss.
>> But and and the judge was okay with it
because
>> I'm glad to hear that actually
>> because she'd heard this for so long,
right? He said he said, "Let me tell you
something." He said, "Well, I think he
said at one point they went back outside
and his lawyer had to convince him to go
back in and continue the plea cuz he was
literally kind of feeling like she's
telling me
>> that I should go to trial." He's like,
"That's not what she's saying at all."
Like, you're you're that she may be
saying that, but you don't want to go to
trial. You know, they're going to put
these people on the stand. They're all
going to say that they all know you. Not
that you lost their money, but they they
>> but they did they lent the money based
on his credibility and how much and how
likable this guy is. That's kind of
[clears throat] the whole thing. And you
know, it breaks down very quickly.
>> Listen, I'm thrilled to hear it's five
years. I mean, because that's just
clearly an injustice that he had to end
up eating the charge at all based on
what you told me. And uh I and I got
hung up on the astronomical dollar
amount of the loss. I thought that would
just drag everything upward and the
judge giving him 13 years would be a
bargain, but I'm glad he only gave him
five. So, I'm I'm thrilled to be wrong.
>> Okay. So, I'm going to tell you about
his prison sentence real I mean his
prison stay by the way.
>> Yeah.
[laughter]
>> Did you know him inside or did Okay.
>> No, I just I know him now. I interview
>> and I know him now and I love him.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. [snorts]
>> Um he's we went to San Diego together.
>> Oh, okay. Cool.
>> Just listen this guy every time we have
a conversation. It's almost a whole
story in and of itself. It's hilarious.
He's he's great. You would love him.
>> Good. um just a super character in
general. But so
you know they once they sentence him he
knows he's going
>> Mhm.
>> he's uh he's going to this one prison
Taft is it a p Taff a p a private
federal p
>> where at a Taff it's in it's in
California I think. Taft federal prison.
It's a private prison.
>> Yeah. I'm familiar with those.
>> Okay.
>> They give you the minimum amount of
calories are the required do by law.
>> So [gasps]
>> did you look it up?
>> Yeah. Where is it located? Might not be.
>> Let's see. In Taft, California. Taft
Correctional Institution was a
lowsecurity federal prison for male
inmates located in Taft Kern County,
California.
>> Yeah, must be it. Okay. So, Taff,
California. Taff prison. Uh I want to
say it's a maybe it's whatever. He's uh
Colobby said it was a low I felt like it
was a camp, but that's fine. Whatever.
Low camp. Yeah.
>> So, but it's a private prison just
before So, he's let out and allowed to
turn himself in. It's only five years.
>> Yeah.
So he has several months while he's
waiting. Keep in mind the bulk of his
friends have stuck around him because
>> posts sentence pre-reporting days. Yes.
Okay. Been sent knows his five years.
Got to turn himself in in 90 days or
whatever.
>> Yeah.
>> So he's still out. He's still playing
golf. He's still hanging out with his
buddies. And the bulk of his friends he
said like stuck with him. Right. Like
some of them he said turned around and
walked the other way.
>> He said but you know anybody that knows
him he's like knows I didn't do this. So
he's like and you know it's great. It's
great because you get to know who your
real friends are.
>> Yeah. Uh, and so he's he said he was
playing golf one day or I forget how it
happened exactly, but one of his buddies
said, "Listen, there's a guy or maybe
it's a lawyer or whatever. There's a guy
that can you pay money to and he can get
you sent to a certain place in the
federal system." No, this is true. I
know multiple and by the way, this is a
great thing. It's usually 3,500 400.
>> This is like our buddy Walt who who can
like kind of
>> kind of Walt knows this guy by the way.
>> Yeah. [clears throat]
>> There's actually a guy you could pay.
He's like a lawyer something. He has
contacts. He can usually get you moved.
If he can't get you moved to the prison
>> that you want, he'll give you the money
back.
>> Which I thought, what a bonus, right?
>> Yeah.
>> So, you give him 35 4,500 bucks,
whatever.
>> So, he thinks So, before that happens,
he goes and they say, "We want you to
get get yourself sent to this prison."
>> Okay.
>> He says, "Okay."
>> Gives the guy some money, whatever.
>> And and if I'm getting anything wrong,
James, I'm sorry.
>> Um, okay. Hold on. It's good. This is
worth it. We're good.
>> Um, you're gonna love this. So, so he
goes to somehow or another he gets
introduced to the guy who owns the
prison.
>> Okay.
>> The private prison who built the prison
and owns it and is running it for uh for
the federal government.
>> The defend the defendant meets the guy
meets the owner. Okay. Yeah.
>> And he meets him, shakes his hand, they
talk for a little bit, and he says,
"Look, you're going to understand if you
do get here and this and that. I'll come
see you once you're settled in. I'll
come see you. Make sure you're do you're
doing okay." He's like, "Okay." He's
like, "Oh, okay. Great. He's like, "So,
I don't really know." You know, he goes,
he said, "After about six weeks of being
there, he gets called up to like the
lieutenant's office, right? They call
him up, comes up,
>> and uh he goes up there and the guy
walks in and he walks in. He's like,
"Hey," he's like, "Uh, stand here." He
goes, "Do you know Roger Johnson?" And
he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I know him. I
know him. Old friend of the family."
He's like, "He's coming to see you right
now." He's like, "Oh, okay. Okay." And
so when he gets there, Johnson gets
there or whatever, he says, "Listen, Mr.
Johnson, you want we can move this to a
to the uh the warden's office or
whatever they call it, the such and such
office." Because I don't think it's
private, so I don't think they call it
those, but to the He goes, "No, no."
>> James gives him a big hug.
>> He's like, "You understand the other in
the inmates can see this
>> the owner of the prison."
>> The owner. So they do a whole thing and
he's like, "Do you is everything okay?
How are you doing? You being treated
right? Is everything?" And he's like,
"Yeah." And keep in mind everybody, all
the officials because they're they're
they're around this guy, right? They
can't let anything happen to this guy,
right?
>> They're around him. They're watching him
hug and hang out with this inmate
>> and and supplicate to him,
>> right? And anything? He's like, "Well,
yeah. No, everything's good.
Everything's good." He's like, "Is there
anything
everything work?" He goes, "Everything
working in the unit?" He said, "Well,
you know, there's couple of the you
know, like the the microwaves don't work
and some issue with one of the TV, but
it's not a big deal." No, no, no. He
said, "Write down what's what's wrong.
>> Give it to Lieutenant so and so or
whoever." And like some woman who's
there and she's like she's like, "I'll
take care of it immediately."
>> And so what happens is he he gets back
and he goes and says, "Look, this is the
list that you know and he says Liz
within a day he said they are going and
grabbing [ __ ] and bringing it and fixing
>> that scene in Good Fellows where they're
like slicing the garlic thin."
>> When you when you hear this him tell if
if you heard him tell the story, you
would be going this is insanity. And he
goes, of course, now the other inmates,
and this is a low, by the way, so it's
not like, hey, you're a cop and like
they hate you. They're like
>> in shock.
>> This guy's got juice.
>> And they're coming to him saying,
"Listen, man. I'm in I'm in B1 and and
our TVs, uh, you know, whatever." And
he's like, "Okay, well, I can't promise
you. I'll mention it." And he writes it
down. And then 24 hours later, they come
in, yank the TV off, and put a brand new
flat screen in. Do you think it made it
to the CEO or you think that the the
staff there understood that this guy's
got juice and uh
>> No, he he would go he'd go because the
like whoever let's say the manager what
they call like the ward and whatever
>> that person was a woman at the time
>> and he said literally I could you could
go up to them like at cow they'll go to
cow.
>> Yeah.
>> And so you can walk up you know usually
you stand in line and wait to get called
right. So he would walk up and she she
would see him. She'd go James come here.
what's going on? What's up? He go, I um
so and look, I understand you're busy.
What do you need? What do you need? What
do you need? She was just told, you
[ __ ] take care of this dude. Wow.
>> And he give him the thing and he said,
24 hours. Boom. Fixed. Fixed. Fixed.
Charmed.
>> He So everybody So he did not have
>> the same prison.
>> The Matt Cox experience. [laughter]
>> It's It's so funny to hear
>> his argument that he shouldn't have been
there in the first place. So
>> yeah, but but it's it and it also makes
me feel good that he didn't, you know,
he he's not in getting fight getting
into fights and, you know, having to be,
you know, walking around with a shake so
he doesn't get, you know, killed or
stabbed or something.
>> But uh yeah, anyway, he's got a ton of
funny, hilarious stories, but I thought
you would find that super funny.
>> And he has an episode on your show,
right?
>> He does. He has an episode on
>> Check it out. Thank you for doing me.
>> Christopher Wittmann owned a he owned a
company, and this is in 2008. He owned a
company called United Logistics. It was
out of uh what? Albany, uh um Georgia.
>> And what?
>> Trucking company.
>> It's a trucking company. Yeah. And they
have a a they move things for
the Marine Corps.
>> Got it. They they had a government
contract to move Marines from camp
whatever to base whatever.
>> No, not the Marines. ju equipment.
Equipment shipping like we're shipping
in, you know, $4,000.
>> Not the personal goods of the soldiers,
but the um but the, you know, the Marine
Corps. Yeah. Makes sense.
>> Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. They move
something, they throw it on the truck,
you know,
>> corporate account for that,
>> right?
>> Clothes, whatever.
>> Um, and of course, a lot of that he subs
out,
>> right? So, he's he's just a kind of a
middleman.
>> Yeah. Most of these trucking companies
are. Yeah. And then they have the
independent operators driving the
trucks.
>> Exactly. So he has So he slowly he he
figures out one time it a glitch in the
system which is he realizes that the
Marine Corps wants to have
these this these items on these three
pallets moved to
uh Lakeland.
>> Yeah.
>> And they also want to have something
moved to Tampa.
>> Okay. And but they don't realize that
all of this can be placed on the same
shipment, right? The same truck, right?
>> And so what he ends up doing is it
starts by he starts billing.
>> Double billing.
>> Yeah. He's double billing. Yeah. Like,
hey, the each pallet is $750 to get
moved. You got three pallets, you know,
it's a whatever 2250, $2150, whatever it
is.
>> Um that's what that's going to cost. And
then there's another pallet that's
another 750. So he starts double billing
everybody, right?
>> Putting it all in the same truck and
then making sure. So it starts slow and
he gets away with it.
>> Mhm.
>> Then it becomes he starts getting very
friendly with the the uh logistics like
uh agents or managers that that do this
inside of the military.
>> Okay.
>> And what he does is he
>> and those people are his points of
contact for the with his client.
>> Yes. So he's calling up and he starts
bribing them
>> where cuz they get very friendly
>> and they start saying you know for
expedited
>> uh movements they pay like three times
as much right. So instead of 750 it's
it's like 21 $2,200. Yeah.
>> If you can get this done in 20 we need
this done in in 24 hours.
>> Mhm.
>> So what they do is
they end up but keep in mind it's still
a bid. It's still bidding.
>> Yeah. So what he does is they say,
"Look, we want to move."
>> Is every shipment its own bid or he has
the contract that he's bid for?
>> Probably a combination of of different
types of things. Um
>> uh I I want to say it's every bid, but
he's getting a lot of the bids.
>> Mh.
>> He's got a trucking company that's right
there.
>> Okay.
>> So, and a lot of these guys don't sign
up, you know, you have to get vetted and
everything, but he's vetted. Yeah.
>> So, he ends up going to them. And this
is one of the things that this is really
kind of how he got caught. He says,
"Hey, they have a lot of equipment,
right?" Because, you know, it's it's a
military. They have tons of bulldozers,
but they're not using bulldozers all the
time, right?
>> So, they've got 80 bulldozers. So, they
say, "Hey, we want to move these four
bulldozers,
>> but they have to be moved right away to
over here to a private facility."
>> Okay?
>> And he's bribing these guys. And so,
they'll put in the bid that he's known
that has been he knows this has been
coming for two weeks. Yeah. So, he
already has guys lined up. So they put
in the bid. He immediately bids. He gets
the bid because he can do it within 24
hours and nobody else can because they
didn't know this was coming like he did
two weeks ago. So he gets a nice chunk
of money right away. Whatever it is,
$8,000, whatever. He comes in, has these
guys waiting, they go pick it up. Here's
where it gets even crazier. He starts
then he drops it off at this facility,
>> but they only drop off three tractors.
>> Okay,
>> there was four. He drops off three. But
the people on the base don't know that
there's not four sitting in here.
>> Right.
>> So he has the tractor refurbished and
sold.
>> He rips off the tractor.
>> Right.
>> Okay.
>> By the way, so this goes on for like
>> So he's he's he's overbilling. He's
paying bribes and he's stealing the
actual physical items that he's supposed
to be moving.
>> And one more.
>> Okay.
>> He's also on the on the express, right?
these express uh movements,
right?
>> That he's getting paid $45,000 a piece
on. He's then going to the to the um uh
to the independent contractor uh uh
truckers and he's saying, "You're going
to get eight grand. I need you to give
me back two."
>> So, he's also getting kickbacks.
>> Okay.
>> Bribes, kickbacks,
theft, sales.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. This goes on for I want to say
well actually I know for four years.
>> All right.
>> Um after four years,
you're not going to believe this, but
the uh the
military actually does an audit
periodically.
>> Sure. and they say,
"I'm not sure why a all of these
tractors and offloaders and um uh cranes
have to be moved within 24 hours."
>> Yeah. What's the rush?
>> Why was there a rush on so many of
these?
>> That's a good catch from the auditors,
>> right? So, they then that ends up
sparking,
you know, this huge internal audit. They
then they really get crazy and look into
everything and very quickly people start
cooperating.
>> Yeah.
>> And the whole thing goes to [ __ ] and uh
Whitman uh ends up getting himself
indicted. So the FB so the the
investigating people were the FBI and
the Defense Criminal Investigative
Services, right?
>> Uh and the
>> DCIS. Yeah. Um, so like I said, probe
turns into probes turn into audits turn
into investig investig law enforcement
investigation.
>> What city plead guilty in or what state?
>> Georgia.
>> Georgia. Okay.
>> So he ends up So what they they uncover
is that he grossed $37 million.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. In four years
>> in wrongfully. Like that's the
>> Well, well, it was Yes, he Yes. Yeah.
wrongfully. And $20 million in
government losses.
>> Okay.
>> All right. So, he even though multiple
people roll over immediately and are
ready to testify against him, he
decides, "Fuck that. I'm going to
trial."
>> Okay.
>> Why you would go to trial, I I don't
know.
>> Bad advice from an attorney, probably,
but
>> um Yeah. So he's, by the way, he after
the trial, he's obviously, you know,
this is in March of of 2015, he's found
guilty of he's convicted of fraud,
bribery, theft, and obstruction of
justice.
>> Yeah.
>> Not sure why the obstruction of justice.
>> Nicest guy. Nicest guy. They all are.
>> Young, too. He wasn't like he was like
50 or something. He was like in his 30s
or late 30s, maybe early 40s.
>> Yeah.
>> Worked out all the time
>> as people do, but that was it. Yeah. Uh
nice guy. So how much time?
>> Eight years
>> with uh
>> eight years.
>> Eight years.
>> Eight years in prison.
>> He went to trial
>> and lost. Eight years.
>> So So
20 million in loss.
>> Mhm.
>> Went to trial.
>> Yes.
>> No criminal history. Eight years.
>> No criminal history. 22 years.
>> Wow. Really?
>> 22 years. Listen to this. And he has to
surrender $18.8
8 million plus over a hundred properties
including vehicles, boats, and uh
rentals.
>> They threw the book at him, didn't they?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, he went I don't you're if you're
so overwhelmingly guilty, why would you
go to trial? Like, doesn't a judge have
to be like,
>> what are you doing?
>> Well, you know, I mean, let's ar I'll
make the counter argument. It's his
right. It's not a tactically smart move,
but it's his right
>> to force to force the government to rise
to its burden of proof. You know how
many people I' I've met that it's like
the government like oh they offered me
three years five years and then they go
to trial and they get like 19 20 and
you're like and you hear their case and
you're like you're so overwhelmingly
guilty.
>> What was this guy like? Because you knew
him in the in the joint, right?
>> I mean very personable. Yeah.
>> You know, white guy,
>> like I said, late 30s
>> as far as I can recall. I don't know
what he is now, but um
>> yeah, just the nicest guy.
>> Guys like that spend a lot of time
rationalizing their behavior and saying
how they got screwed and they didn't
really do it and really or are they
comfortable with the idea of I was
guilty I got caught.
>> That's exactly like he he was like that.
He wasn't saying like no you don't
understand like this is normal. But it
wasn't like that. He was like, "Yeah, I
was doing this. I was doing that. I just
didn't think, you know, I didn't think
they could prove it or anything." So he
wasn't
>> he'd come to terms with the fact that he
did something wrong and that's what he
was paying.
>> Yeah. I don't think I think he just
thought he could win. Or maybe he
thought he'd get a better deal if he
went to trial.
>> Is he still inside?
>> I I'm 2015.
>> Yeah, he's he's still he's or he might
be getting out soon. He'll
[clears throat] probably getting out
soon. Yeah, he he's he's got to still be
in in prison.
>> Oh, that's a harsh sentence.
>> I bet he would have gotten a few years
if he plead guilty.
>> Well, I have a new appreciation for what
you go through.
>> It's agony. It's agony is what it is.
[laughter] Poor
guy.
>> I'm I'm gonna say five of [snorts] 12.
I'm gonna say this episode was a Tom
victory. [laughter] So,
>> it's not my victory.
I am
>> I'm an impartial uh arbiter here. I'm
not I'm not looking for Matt to lose. I
want Matt to have the courage of his
convictions, though, when he guesses a
number.
>> Not true. You move me. You keep moving
me. Just weakness on my part.
>> Yeah. Well, I think that's the don't
allow yourself to be manipulated.
>> Tom was very solid on his answers. He's
like, "This is it."
>> Well, and I was wrong, so it for
[laughter] for all the good that did me,
but uh but I'm hoping my confidence came
through to your audience. But um that's
what the sentences should have been. But
judges are they'd be wilden.
[laughter]
>> I'm shocked that you admitted to
murdering that woman on on the cruise.
>> I know. I did I did a murder on a cruise
ship.
>> Oh, all right. Okay. Well,
>> so what do you do nowadays?
>> Oh, yeah. So,
>> Oh, [laughter]
I'm so glad you asked. Um, I'm a private
investigator now. I retired from the FBI
after 26 years of service, and I now
have a private investigative agency,
licensed in Florida and seven other
states, but I honestly work in all 50
states because most of the cases I work
are fraud cases. And so, if working in a
state where I'm not licensed, I hold
myself out as a forensic accountant. But
the bottom line is I can investigate
fraud cases for people who have been
victimized. And that's mostly what I do.
And so if there's anyone here watching
Matt Cox fan, you're welcome to contact
me. Go ass to simoninvestigations.com.
And I do free consultations all the time
for Matt Cox viewers. And so, you know,
I'm not looking to make money off of a a
phone call. And if there's something I
can do to help e recover the money that
was stolen from you or refer this case
to my former colleagues at the FBI for
whatever investigation they deem
appropriate, I'd be honored to be able
to help you. So, feel free to contact
me. You should also follow me on my
social media which is @Simon
Investigations on Instagram, Tik Tok,
and YouTube. I do these two or three
minute crime stories every day. They
usually end in the sentence and that's
kind of where I'm drawing from these
cases that I present to Matt. I also do
public speaking. Uh if you have a have a
group, organization or company that
brings in outside speakers, I'd be
honored if you could introduce me to the
person who hire speakers for your
organization. And mostly I just want to
thank you for watching and and I'm
really really proud to be part of the
Matt Cox family.
I didn't know you were licensed in seven
states.
>> Well, Florida has reciprocity with seven
states.
>> Oh, okay. Yeah. I was going to say, what
does that take? Like, did you have to
take a test or something? Okay.
>> Yeah, you take a test in Florida that
gives you the seven states. I'm able to
play it cute because I'm not doing
surveillance work or anything like that.
So, I'm not going to be found in like
North Dakota sitting in a car in some
subdivision with my binocular.
>> You're not sitting in a Walmart park.
>> I was Why would that be illegal anyway?
Like, why can't I can't
>> You can't It's called stalking if you're
following people around. [laughter]
>> You can't get paid for it. Yeah. Yeah.
There's also that
>> I know Kaisa that do it for free.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But um but I because I'm not
doing those type of cases. I'm doing
fraud investigations and expert witness
testimony and things like that. I can
work in all 50 states and I do I'm I
have a a good firm and I'm I'm proud of
my little oneman firm. Yeah. Hey you
guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me a
favor. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the
bell so you get notified of videos just
like this. Also, if you like this
episode, we're going to be having a
playlist so that you can go to the
playlist and it'll play all 12, 13, 14,
15. By the time you see this, there may
be 30 of these things in the playlist.
Look, Tom's [laughter] like, "Oh my god,
30." Um, uh, if you're interested in
being, we're also going to leave all of
Tom's social media links in the
description box. Also, we're going to
leave our website in case you want to be
a guest. You can go to our website. You
can go to the be a guest page, fill out
a very brief application, and leave like
a three minute video and we will get in
contact you. Thank you very much. See
you. Be cool.
More from Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime
aura & Gb everett
aura, gusto, GB josh pellz
BUSTING KEANU REEVES MILLION DOLLAR SCAM | FBI AGENT FRAUD STORIES
cash app & GB rayshawn
cashapp & GB Everett Stern
CATCHING THE FBI'S MOST WANTED WOMEN | FBI AGENT FRAUD STORIES
Cecilie Fjellhoy - need title, playlist, schedule
Dark Web Kingpin Makes Millions... Then One Fatal Mistake
Exposing Flock: Americas Mass Surveillance Company | James Fishback
EXPOSING THE STEVIE WONDER ALICIA KEYS SCAM | FBI AGENT FRAUD STORIES
FBI AGENT EXPOSES CREDIT CARD SCAMS
FBI Agent Exposes Elvis's Graceland Scam
FBI AGENT EXPOSES INFLUENCER SCAMS
FBI AGENT EXPOSES LAS VEGAS SCAMS (4K)
FBI Agent Exposes Sean Kingston's $1M Fraud (4K)
FBI AGENT Reveals Bizarre Stories Behind Airplane Freakouts | Tom Simon
FBI AGENT Reveals Bizarre Stories Behind Famous Fraud Cases | Tom Simon