Wayne Williams. The guy's 100% guilty.
>> He's not. He's
>> I think Wayne Williams is innocent.
They've started to reopen this case.
>> So, we were kidnapped.
We threw him over the bridge.
>> Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to
the Murder Men. I am as excited for this
episode as I am for every single episode
we do. I'm not putting it on when I say
ladies and gentlemen, welcome back cuz
we love you. Make sure to hit that like
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Let's get into it. Matthew, who we
talking about today,
>> Wayne Williams. You know, I think this
is 45 years ago.
>> I think it was 45. Is it 45 years ago or
>> when it happened? Well, it happened in
the early 80s. Yeah.
>> Yeah. In the early 80s in Atlanta.
>> Yeah. Wayne Williams, not a redneck.
>> Barely out of segregation.
>> Barely out of segregation. Uh, still
very grimy. Very grimy. Atlanta back
then. Now it's a builtup, you know, it's
like the New York of the South almost in
certain ways, but
>> South. It's the new South. But back in
the [ __ ] early 80s, dude, it was the
[ __ ] good.
>> It would have good.
>> It would have.
>> Anyway, the interesting thing about the
city is that at this point, they
actually had it was like one of the
first cities is actually being run by a
black mayor. They got a black um uh
>> council people.
>> Council people. Yeah. Everything across
the board like there's there's so for
the first time they're actually kind of
>> running their cities from the top down
as opposed to
>> Right. And you know rampant corruption
scandals that followed. But listen, it
could happen with any city. Put that
aside.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's You ever see the
Detroit how they run the city of Detroit
cuz it's also like heavily black
governed. Bro, every other mayor is
arrested for by the feds for fraud and
yeah, [ __ ] graft corruption, giving
con city contracts to their cousin. Um
Wayne Williams, not a redneck, actually
a black man born in 1958 to a middle
class black family. So Atlanta is one of
those areas, one of those cities that uh
proudly boasts a large black middle
class. Yeah. Which is very cool. And
that's attracted over the years, it's
attracted a lot of people um a lot of
black families from you know the deep
south from really like poverty-stricken
areas and they come to Atlanta you know
seeking the American dream. So he's born
to a middle class the the only child
only child very rare for a black family
back in the 50s to only have one kid. Uh
and you know [ __ ] only children are
weird right? Only you know the only
child you got the the entitlement and
the things that come along with it. Not
all of them. Uh, I'm just looking for
what made this kid,
>> you know, grow up to have almost 30
bodies under his belt in just a couple
of years. By the way, all of his victims
black. So, unfortunately, this is the
first serial killer that we've talked
about that's all black-on-black crime.
>> Yeah. Well, typically, and not always,
but for the majority of it, you
typically have a you have a certain
type, and they very seldom do serial
killers jump outside of their race,
right? I mean, there's a few, but for
the most part, Right. Interesting. Yeah,
for the most part. Like, like um Oh,
come on. Uh yeah, Gayy. Samuel Well,
Gayy was like all boys, right? Samuel uh
Samuel Little. He uh it was almost all
black. There were some there were some
white
>> some white girls
>> but
>> when he went out to San Diego
>> like like out of the 96 there's like
three.
>> Well, but I don't think I don't think
that's intentional. That was Samuel
Little wasn't as much racebased as it
was opportunistic. He didn't he was real
old school black
>> and almost all prostitutes,
>> right? So he he said specifically he's
like I don't go I don't go to the white
neighborhood, you know, cuz I know they
going to investigate, right?
>> I stick I stick in my neighborhood
>> with [ __ ] prostitutes, street
walkers and [ __ ] you know? So anyway,
they don't give a [ __ ] what they did.
Okay.
>> His So Wayne's parents were both
teachers.
>> Yes.
>> Made decent money and they doted on him.
I mean, he was a spoiled brat.
>> Mhm. Yeah. And you when you see
interviews with him, you're like, "Oh,
yeah. You're still a spoiled brat."
>> Oh, yeah. You're a douchebag. He's he's
a complete I mean over It's funny how
many of these guys, the serial killers
are just so [ __ ] unlikable and
arrogant. Totally. Like I'm arrogant.
You're arrogant, but in a great way.
>> Super liable. I mean, check the
comments. People like me.
>> People love you. So, but this guy, I
mean, you just can't like them. You just
you see that they're hor and there's
plenty of There's not like there's two
interviews. There's plenty of
interviews.
>> Yeah.
>> He likes the camera.
>> And the worst part is that he has this
this sense of like righteous indic
and it's injustice that's done to me.
You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. It's so stupid. it anyway. And and
there's and of course there are some
people that will look at the mountain of
evidence and say he's innocent. He's not
innocent. Absolutely [ __ ] Yeah, he's
absolutely [ __ ] guilty.
>> I am I am one of them. I think Wayne
Williams is innocent along with Scott
Peterson.
>> So I I hope that our sleuth journalism,
our sleuth online journalism can get
Scott Peterson off. And I want to see
Wayne Williams get off, you know. But
again, we need to incarcerate Scott
Peter Fry that was getting Scott
Peterson off.
>> Oh.
What does he win?
>> You should throw the in there. Okay. Um,
so, uh, yeah, you guys can decide for
yourself because in recent years, this
these murders happened in the early '
80s. In recent, like the last two or
three years, uh, they've started to
reopen this case and they they've
presented some DNA evidence uh, that may
exonerate him uh, from at least some of
the murders, but again, there's 30
murders and these are mostly young black
people, too. Um, every once in a while,
uh, Wayne will dupe some [ __ ]
somebody into dumping some money into
like DNA. Like they tested the DNA for
the dog hairs that were found on on like
eight of the bodies that came that the
police said, "We believe it came from
Wayne's the family German Shepherd and
then they'll test the dog hairs and
although they can't do exact DNA
matching on the dog's dead."
>> Yeah. Uh, but they say we it's actually
is from a German Shepherd.
>> We can't we can't get rid of it. We
can't exclude his dog as a result of it.
It's like, okay, so once again, you look
even more guilty.
>> But no, but it's the ghetto. How many
people have German shepherds?
>> It's like saying, "Oh, a pitbull hair
was found on." So,
>> so what do you mean German shepherds? I
Black people don't have German
shepherds. They have pit bulls.
>> They have pit bulls, but they also have
Germans.
>> I don't think so.
>> They have German shepherds. They say
that's how that's how little you know.
>> That's how little you know or care.
Listen, when you look at all of the all
of the evidence, there's no [ __ ] way.
It's him. Is there absolutely him?
>> Black people don't really have German
shepherds. You know why? Those were like
attack dogs. That was like Selma,
Alabama. They use those to sick them on
>> Yeah. Like his parents were His parents
were very highly educated, too, by the
way. They're They're both like teachers.
They They dump a ton of money. By the
way, he bankrupts his parents at one
point. Did you know that?
>> Before he goes to prison.
>> Yeah. How so?
>> Check. You got to listen. So let uh
let's talk about when he's I forget how
old is he. He's 11 or something or 12.
He starts a radio station in his in the
family home his parents. So anything
he's he So first of all he's not stupid.
He's very smart. His parents used to
tell people that he was a genius.
Whether that's true or not, I don't
know.
>> But he is definitely he's got a high
verbal IQ and he was really handy. Like
he knew how to make like radios like he
would make his own ham radios and Yeah.
You know, the guy was definitely
>> sharp. Yeah, he's sharp.
>> The douchebag. So, he ends up starting
kind of a radio station inside of his
house and he he's his parents dump a ton
of money into it. He gets employees. He
which all the employees said there was
there was con constantly problems with
him. He was just such a jerk and and he
was always yelling at everybody and just
felt he was superior to everyone.
>> He reminds me of a young Diddy actually
because as you're going to see this guy,
he presented himself as this media and
music professional, right? So, and if
you know the music business and
especially in the black community, like
if you are black yourself or if you
watch if you just know anything about
that world, right,
>> it's super predatory. Obviously, we see
with the with the Diddy scandal, super
predatory and it's filled with tons of
just hustlers and bullshitters and
liars. It's Hollywood is much that way,
too. Back when Hollywood was, you know,
thriving, you get these guys that show
up uh and call themselves producers. I'm
a producer. Oh, okay. You want to meet
me at the office and talk about your
your script? Oh, well, you meet me at
the coffee bean. I don't really have an
office. I kind of work out of the the
local my coffee bean on Sunset, you
know.
>> Do I write this check to the production
company? Uh, just just write it to me
directly. I don't actually haven't
actually incorporated yet.
>> Yeah, we're not we're not incorporated,
but we're working on that. I'm raising
investor money.
>> When you say we, who is that? Uh, me and
my girlfriend, we talk about it at night
when we're laying in bed.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's my after I disappoint
her.
>> It's my executive producer. Yeah. So
it's it's uh so Atlanta kind of is the
black Hollywood and music kind of
mirrors that that bullshitter culture
that existed in the movie business in
LA. So
>> did you ever see Hustle and Flow?
>> Great movie.
>> Great movie. [ __ ] great that trick.
>> What the he wants to call that He wants
to call the song Beat That [ __ ] and and
the producers like we got to kind of
tone it down a little bit. We're trying
to get some radio play here. I love the
I love the beat the [ __ ] I love it. I
love it. I love it. I love what you're
doing with Be the [ __ ] We got to We
got to get on the radio.
>> Want that trick? That's better.
>> It's a great movie.
>> Great movie. Great movie. Uh I think I
jacked it to that movie. I think I
jacked it to the white girl with the
long dreads.
>> Oh yeah, I know who you're talking
about.
>> She's the only white girl in the whole
[ __ ] thing.
>> Right. Right.
>> There's no no other white face in the
whole movie.
>> Yeah, I definitely remember being high
and [ __ ] getting ahead of steam
watching that movie and
>> Yeah, I jacked it. Anyway,
what's the weirdest movie you beat Dick
to?
>> Can we go? Can we keep going?
>> Mine Shaw Shank Redemption.
>> What? The the scene
>> when the girls the girls remember when
they get Andy in a compromising
position?
>> Yeah. They get it goes anything that
goes in my mouth I'm biting down on.
>> Anyway, he starts a radio show. He hires
people. He has problems. He's trying to
get advertisers to go on the radio. He's
He does this whole thing at within a
year or two, his parents dump a ton of
money into it and then ultimately they
end up going bankrupt. He closes it down
and goes bankrupt. They go bankrupt.
Like that's how like are you This is
like a I don't know if he's 14 or 15. I
don't know if he was 11, but it's just a
little kid at the time. Like are you
joking? Did you just dump your [ __ ]
life savings into a
>> 15-year-old wannabes right music career?
Yeah. It's crazy. And you know, so this
is such a such a a huge
>> example of how parents don't really see
their kids for who they are.
>> Like everybody that's met this guy says
[ __ ]
>> His parents are telling he's a genius.
>> Your kid's an [ __ ]
>> You know, and honestly, even if he was
innocent, which he's not, but if he
were, he brought this on himself. every
interaction with the police, the media,
everything. He's a [ __ ] [ __ ] He
He makes you think this guy's a [ __ ]
and I don't give a [ __ ] whether he did
it or not. I'm finding him guilty. He's
such an [ __ ]
>> See, that's why you wouldn't be a good
juror because you must be fair and
impartial. And also, I the I'm not
saying he did it. I'm not saying he
didn't do it. I I don't care about any
of that. Is there any
>> Is there proof beyond a reasonable
doubt?
>> Yes.
>> Now, if there's not, then you must have
quit. That's just what it is. OJ Simpson
to uh whoever the these other guilty
people that have have walked. It's like
if there is either improper police
procedure or in the case of Alex Murdo,
improper court procedure, if there is
new evidence that where you say, well,
>> that might have made a difference.
>> It might have might have been somebody
else and I'm not sure and they're going
to give this guy life in prison or the
death penalty. You must have quit. So
that's what I want you guys to think
about as as we go on. Now, do I hope
this guy's guilty? Absolutely. He
bankrupts his parents, which I didn't
even realize. Uh, but he keeps going. He
poses as like a talent scout. So, he
meets these cuz again, uh, Atlanta is
like the music capital of the South. So,
you got a lot a lot of upand cominging
young artists. And he approaches them,
right? You a lot of young boys or a lot,
you know, young men. And he says, "Hey,
I can help you." And that's how
prosecutors say that he first meets his
victims.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He he starts making flyers, says
that he's putting together I forget the
name of the of the band or the what
label or whatever he called it. And it
he's talking about
>> he's talking about putting together the
creating the next Jackson 5. And so
these kids, he's passing out flyers.
They're reading the flyers. They're
like, "Oh my gosh." And they actually
have I think two of the kids actually go
home with the flyers and show their mom.
And one of them specifically says, "Mom,
I'm going to make you rich. M
>> I'm going to I met a I met a guy. I'm
going to uh he's going to record some of
my albums and they you know and he's got
the flyer and so he meeting up with
>> this guy.
>> Yeah. It's called the Williams. It's
called the Williams 7.
>> You've heard of the Jackson 5? The
Williams 7, dude.
>> But listen. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I hear
you. The audition is tough.
>> Yeah, I heard it's tough.
>> Yeah. You're gonna have to
>> It's a killer.
>> You're gonna have to suck in.
>> It's a Colobby. Colby, it's a killer.
>> Oh, I was about to make a joke.
>> Yeah. Anyway, so
>> by the way, the uh we talked to some
guy, his grand on the podcast, Cavario,
his uncle was a big time kingpin from
like the 70s, right? Black Kingpin. And
he was looking for places to launder his
money. And somebody goes, "Hey, why
don't you put it in like the music
business?" He goes, "No."
Like he knew. He knew like it's always
been creepy. It's always been predatory.
You know,
>> by the time Wayne is how how old is I
think he's in his what? His in his early
20s cuz he's actually find he's actually
is finding kind of talent, right? Like
he's trying to work with these these
kids.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh although everybody that knows him
says that he had a real disdain for for
for poor black kids. He despised them.
He was constantly saying they have no
ambition. They're stupid. did there. He
had a bunch of nicknames for them too,
like uh you know, gritters and like all
all kinds of like little whatever. Uh
>> so he was very classist. He was not
sensitive to the needs of other people
in his community.
>> Okay. So uh yes, he is recruiting, you
know, young talent. He's working as a
freelance photographer, um self-employed
electronics hobbyist, right? He's fixing
and putting together electronics, but
he's also getting in some trouble. In
1976 when he's 18 years old, he gets
arrested for impersonating a police
officer after outfitting his car with
police style lights.
>> Right. And so let me let me explain that
that doesn't here's what was really
happening. He does get arrested and and
it's illegal to do this by the way, but
he didn't it wasn't done wasn't done on
>> maliciously to like victims. What he did
was he outfit, still stupid, but he
outfits his uh his vehicle with the
police lights because he's he's
literally what they used to call an
ambulance tracer, right?
>> So, he's racing out to he's listening to
the radio, right,
>> uh to the uh the police scanner. He'd
find out where there's an accident, then
he'd drive out there and he would then
those people that had been injured, he
would bring them to a lawyer.
>> Wow. Right.
>> Take a fee.
>> Right. A lawyer is not allowed to do
that, by the way, but you can. Somebody
else can do it on your behalf. So, he's
taking a fee. He's meeting these people.
He's And to get there quickly, he puts
the lights on.
>> Yeah.
>> To get through traffic. Get through.
>> Get through traffic. So, he's not really
trying to He's not trying I mean, I
guess technically he's trying to get
He's trying to get people's attention to
get out of the way, I guess. I I don't
know. But he's not like he pulled
anybody over and said, "Hey, I'm a
police officer." But you're right.
You're not allowed to do that. You're
not allowed to have those types of
lights. And as a result of that,
eventually some cop sees them driving
through traffic, you know, you know, and
anyway, so they pull him over and the
[ __ ] are you doing, bro?
>> Yeah.
>> I'm just trying to get through traffic.
Yeah, I get it.
>> Us, too.
>> That's why we do it.
>> Wow. So, he's This guy's a hustler.
>> This is why I was so shocked by the
allegations that he killed all these
people because he's like hustling for
money. Like, this isn't the This isn't
the attitude of like a serial killer.
You know what I mean? I think they
dropped these charges, by the way. I
don't think he was ever ended up being
charged for I think they dropped them.
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game. So in the late7s when he's in his
early 20s like 2021 the late '7s in
Atlanta was like rocked by a string of
serial murders on July 28th 79 the
bodies of Edward Hope Smith 14 and
Alfred Evans 13 were found in southwest
Atlanta. These are the first recognized
victims. So there's a whole slew of
late7s bodies uh that they thought later
on when they arrested him he might have
been involved in but I guess they didn't
you know they decided to not not charge
him.
>> So the we'll get we'll get to it but
they the kids he's never actually
charged with they actually charged with
two adults
>> right
>> which are still young adults
>> right but they were mostly kids who who
>> it's almost all kids
>> the victims are all kids. It's okay. The
the problem is is that because it's kind
of it's so the the circumstantial
evidence, although I think it is I don't
know why he wasn't charged with these.
So, I don't know what I don't know what
the the problem is. They had so they had
really good evidence on the two guys.
So, they charge him whether or not they
thought he they were going to get him
get him to confess, which he obviously
did not. And you have different types of
serial killers. Some of them get
arrested and once they know, okay,
that's it. I'm done. I'm caught. They go
ahead what they've been holding in this
whole time because these guys aren't
telling anybody about this. They're
leading these secret lives. They then
just just do a an information dump all
over you and they'll talk for [ __ ] a
week, two weeks, 3 weeks straight and
tell you everything. And then some of
them profess their innocence and will
never tell. No matter how much evidence
you show them, they just that don't mean
nothing. That doesn't mean anything.
That Well, here's the video. Here's the
video of you choking her to death and
dumping her body. That don't mean
nothing. I don't know who else has done
that that we've talked about. I mean,
there there was Israel Keys who
>> Ted Bundy.
>> Yeah.
>> He never admitted it. He did in the
third party. He would talk about he knew
he was so cooked.
>> Yeah.
>> He, you know, he would do talk about it
in the third party, but he still felt
like he was going to be able to beat the
charges,
>> right?
>> So, there were Ted Bundy, there was uh
John Wayne Gayy admitted it, talked,
actually drew drew drawings showing you
where the bodies were buried underneath
his house. And then after he uh he was
found guilty or plead guilty and got his
[ __ ] uh um got the death penalty,
then he started saying he was innocent.
>> What are you talking about? You drew the
pictures. We have you on audio. You
talked for [ __ ] two weeks about this.
>> No, I'm innocent. It was someone else.
It's a conspiracy.
>> But Wayne Williams never he's consistent
from the beginning. He he acts like a
black guy who's just denying.
>> Yeah, it's just denying.
>> No. No. Hell no. No, I ain't do that.
like he's and I know that's it sounds
like me being better than you.
>> It sounds like me being funny, but No,
no, he's very articulate. Um he
>> I don't know. He's it it raises some
questions with me because with even with
killers like Israel Keys who don't tell,
you know, don't tell the cops where the
bodies are. He doesn't deny he cops to
something when he's dead to rights.
He'll admit that, okay, yeah, I did her
like this, but what about the other 12
bodies? Well, I'm not gonna I don't
know.
>> Yeah, he's holding back. He's holding
back, but he's still trying to
manipulate the situation.
>> Exactly. Wayne Williams doesn't seem
like he's manipulating at all. And maybe
that's what makes him a great
manipulator. Maybe that he's doing it
and he's just, you know, mind [ __ ]
me, right? But from the jump, he's like
uh playing like the no, I not only did I
did I not do it, but I'm being
victimized and railroaded. So he's
that's completely out of character with
literally
every serial killer that we've talked
about.
That's all I'm saying. So uh so in the
late '7s, this is when this slew of
child murders begins. The scale and
pattern of the killings created a
growing sense of terror and outrage in
Atlanta's black community, compounded by
a slow initial response from city and
law enforcement officials that many
residents believed reflected racial
injustice. Right. that's under police
communities that black kids probably
gang related whatever whatever right
most of the victims were choked asiated
>> yeah none of these kids are gang related
these are little kids
>> like 13-year-olds
>> yeah and this is not in an during a this
isn't during a period where there were
like gangs like we have now
>> Atlanta didn't have gangs
>> these are just poor if you if you if you
watch the the interviews with their
parents and these are just poor kids
that are like this is 11 year olds and
it's funny too
>> the amount of trust and uh this is
basically almost like when I was raised,
right? Like you could my mom would give
me money to go up to the store which was
a mile away and I would ride my bike to
get milk to get things from the store.
>> This is when you could do that and you'd
come back with food and maybe you get a
piece of candy and you get some whatever
it was and you'd ride your bike all the
way back. You could walk up with like a
note and
>> buy cigarettes
>> and buy cigarettes for your mom from the
[ __ ] 7-Eleven. But and that's what
like these kids like one of the kids the
mother gave him the cash
>> to go to the bank and pay her credit
card bill,
>> right?
>> So she goes he goes he pays the credit
card bill. That's a lot of trust. Yeah.
>> Right. And he comes back but on the way
back that's when he disappears. They
find him whatever a week or two later.
And so they the one kid that the first
kid they find they find his body
and once they find him just cuz you know
they kind of walk around the area to see
like is there any evidence they find
they stumble across the second kid.
>> Wow.
>> Like they found him the same day. You
know that happens like that happened
with the um the Gilgo Beach
>> they too like they found one and boom
they found another one and then bam they
like oh my god like it's a dumping and
that's what this was.
>> Yeah. and Atlanta, you know, in the in
these deep kind of ghetto neighborhoods
outside the city of Atlanta, there's a
lot of wooded areas. A lot it looks like
Houston. There's a ton of like, you
know, little creeks and and places to
dump bodies. Especially back then, most
of the victims were strangled or
esphixxiated. Some were shot. Their
bodies often dumped near rivers, wooded
areas, or roadsides throughout Atlanta
and neighboring Decal County.
>> Affixiated. What is What does that mean?
You think like a B? Is that like with
Because it's not choked, right? Is it
like they put his hand over their mouth
or something or or like a bag or
something like that?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Suffocated.
>> Exactly. Exactly. Uh by 1980, city
leaders under Mayor Maynard Jackson
formed a special task force to
investigate what was then widely
recognized as a serial murder case.
Ultimately, the official list of Atlanta
child murders victims connected to the
task force numbered 29 or 30. All young
black people ranging in age from 17
seven to 28.
>> Yeah. It got to a point
>> seven year old. A seveny old.
>> Yeah. It got to a point where it was uh
every week to two weeks a body was being
found. And so the kids that are being
found suddenly there's a there's a lot
of press of course of course the Atlanta
parents people don't think that the cops
are doing enough. Um and they are doing
they've got a task force. They got a
bunch of guys like they they have seen
interviews with guys that were on the
task force. They're like, you know, even
like black cops that are like, "Listen,
I don't know what else we could have
done." Like, we were working around the
clock. Like, but all we're all we've got
is bodies and we have fiber evidence.
>> So, there there's a ton of fiber
evidence
>> on a on a few of the the bodies from the
first one, second one. Like there's
periodically there's some of these kids
are just found and there's nothing on
them. They lump them in because it's in
the same general area. They just ended
up disappearing
and they believe that they're a part of
it, but there's a there's also 15 to 20
of them that have overlapping fiber
evidence on them. I'll give you an
example. They'll have like a carpet
fibers on their their shoes, their just
little fibers. So they might find fibers
on this kid, uh fibers from the carpet,
fibers from uh sheets, right? And fibers
from a the German shepherd on this one
kid.
>> Then the next kid, they might find
almost nothing cuz he's found, you know,
with whatever almost naked or something.
You're very little. They don't he's been
rained on. It's it's been a month since
they since he's been there. They have
really nothing. And then the next kid,
they might find German shepherd hairs.
Well, that's how they're kind of like,
okay, well, wait, we have German
shepherd or we have dog hairs here.
Okay, the next kid has fibers and German
shepherd hairs. Okay, well that's got to
be the part of this one. The next one
had So, a lot of it's overlapping and
how the kids and where the kids were
taken from.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, so so as a result, they end up
with this body of of uh of work, let's
say. and and the fiber evidence is
becoming very popular as as a science uh
a forensic science in the 80s. That's
actually how if you watch the Bobby Joe
Long episode, the Tamper murderer,
that's how they got him cuz he was
having girls jump in his car and the the
carpet fiber from the red floor mats in
the front seat were attaching themselves
to the victim.
>> Was the carpet and just Do you remember
those cars in the back back? Now carpet
fiber like the the carpet you have in
the in the vehicles now is tight and
[ __ ] woven but back then it was like
almost like shag carpet,
>> right? It was it was good. Yeah, it was
good quality.
>> It was like soft like you could rub it
>> so it could rip up easily
>> of course.
>> Um so this this goes on by the way as
far as the carpet evidence is being
found and that's how the cops know we're
putting this together because of this
reason. Like this is great. All we need
to do is who can we need to link we know
that if we can find the guy we can link
him to uh to the carpet fibers, right?
Like this has got to be from his house
or his car, something. So here's what's
interesting about that is that they're
pulling people over that are suspects
and they're they're checking on these
guys. Like they have one suspect they're
like this this guy's perfect and then
they check and they go and they're like
none of the carpet flight fibers.
>> Well, how do they check?
>> They would go they go to your house.
They they go through the car, they go
through like nothing's matching and so
they kind of like okay and they they're
giving everybody back then they give
everybody a polygraph like everybody's
and this whole thing is polygraph right
>> so they this is doing this is great and
>> what ends up happening is as as this is
being kind of talked about in the press
there's so much pressure on the task
force that at some point one of the
detectives
explains how they're grouping the people
together or the kids together and he
ends up talking about the carpet fibers
and from that moment on they start
finding all the bodies in the in the um
in the river
>> in the river without carpet fibers.
>> Of course, now he realizes [ __ ] said
that out loud.
>> I Exactly. What a dumbass. So now what's
he doing? He's throwing all the bodies
in the river cuz he figures I throw them
in there it'll get washed off.
>> Right. Right.
>> Some of them Some of them he starts
stripping
>> completely like they'll be found with
like their underwear and socks on, you
know. Was there any evidence of sex
abuse?
>> Yeah, he's definitely touching. I mean,
I don't know if he's or not, but they
have and I'm sure we'll get to it. I
think we'll get to it. There's one kid
that he and by the way, they have two or
three. I think they have three kids that
he actually picks up that gets get away.
One kid he drives out into the woods. He
said he
>> Sure.
>> And he said I was terrified. He's like
grabbing me and stuff and I'm But he's a
little boy. He's like 11. Mhm.
>> And Wayne at this point, he's like in
his 20s, I think. So he's touching him
and stuff and he tells him, "Hey, let me
uh I got to get something out of this
truck trunk. Stay here." He gets out,
walks over to the trunk. The kid [ __ ]
opens the door and just bolt and runs
and runs. And Wayne chases him,
>> but he gets away,
>> but he's terrified. He's terrified. But
that kid ends up testifying. There's two
other kids that have similar, not that
bad, but similar things where Wayne
attacked them or Wayne grabbed them and
but there's no proof. They're never char
he's never charged with it. But they do
testify.
>> Does do does that kid in particular uh
does he point to Wayne and say, "Oh
yeah, that was the guy who did it."
>> Yes.
>> There's Listen, there are so many there
are multiple people during the trial
that where Wayne's like, "I don't even
know who that kid is." And then there
are like a shop owner who's like,
"Listen, that kid used to come in all
the time. He used to come in here to get
stuff for his mom. I've been, you know,
I remember Wayne came in. I saw him with
Wayne. He left with Wayne.
>> You know what I'm saying? Or I've seen
them together. Maybe not that day. Might
have been two weeks before he
disappeared, but I've seen the two of
him talking to him outside the store."
So, there's a lot of that type of thing.
Those are the ones that worry me
because, you know,
>> what do you mean worry?
>> Well, is this
>> as witnesses?
>> Yeah. because it's like, is this just
somebody who thinks you did it and wants
to make sure that there's a good
connection? So, he comes up with this.
There's no cameras. There's no cell
phones. There's
>> And plus your memory. We know how
eyewitnesses are are notoriously
uh
>> the full They don't even use them
anymore. They hardly even use them.
>> They're the most unreliable is
eyewitnesses.
>> Exactly. I had especially victims.
>> Victims eyewitnesses. You can't even
like you can't trust those if that's all
you got. You know what I mean? The kids
though.
>> Well, the kids the kids are terrified.
They they know they were kind of I take
that as more reliable.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's because like
these kids like as soon as this
happened, they immediately went to their
parents. Their parents brought him to
the police station, right?
>> This is before they even catch Wayne.
That's why whenever people like, "Oh,
he's not guilty." It's like, listen,
man, they had all this fiber evidence.
It's not like, "Hey, when they when they
raid his house, they took fiber evidence
and planted." No, they've had the fiber
evidence. They've had they speaking
about the fiber evidence. There's too
many people in the police department
that know about the fiber evidence and
there's the um the articles about the
fiber evidence and when they find it,
they link it directly to you. And the
carpet in his bedroom that the fiber
evidence comes from, this was carpet.
This isn't something that was na that
had been being made for 20 years and was
tons of houses. This was a company that
made this particular brand of carpet for
exactly one year and it was not a big
seller.
>> And yet that's carpet that was in your
room.
>> Kind of like Richard Ramirez's shoe
print, right? They got lucky. Yes. He
had one of the only shoes in that size
>> sold in Los Angeles County. Imagine that
luck.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. That's a huge break. Okay. So,
before we get to that, um they bring the
FBI in. Uh, and of course there's a lot
of theories, right, that Ku Klux Clan,
right? It's racially motivated.
>> They actually have a whole investigation
into the Ku Klux Clan, a separate
investigation that they don't connect
with the main investigation cuz they're
afraid of a race riot or race war. I
don't know what they call it, but
they're afraid like they're like, "We
don't want anybody to think that we
believe it's possible that the Ku Klux
Clan is involved." So, they have a they
create a separate investigation just
into that. Here's the thing about that.
They wire them. They get some informants
that go into the clan. They talk. This
goes on for months.
>> And eventually there's four or five of
these clan clansmen. There's like a
group of them that they think if anybody
did it, it's these guys. Cuz these guys
have actually talked about killing uh
going out and killing black children,
>> right?
>> Until uh until it creates a race, right?
>> And so what they do is they bring those
guys in because the informants have
said, "Look, if they anybody, it's these
[ __ ] here. These guys are
insane." They bring them in. They give
them all polygraphs. They tell them ask
them where they were certain. They all
pass the polygraph. And they're like,
"Fuck, it's not these. They're [ __ ]
but
>> they're not murdering black children."
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's those clan guys
would get caught pretty quick. If you're
in Southwest Atlanta, you stand out like
a [ __ ] I think
>> it's the hood.
>> Yeah. You're There's not a lot of white
guys with beards uh [ __ ] just
storming around looking for black kids.
>> Yeah. Not in the black neighborhood.
>> You're going to get shot. Yeah. Um so
they start monitoring bridges because as
you say when they kind of tipped off the
killer about the fibers the bodies start
getting tossed into the chat chhatta
>> is it Chattanooga
>> Chattahuchi
>> that's a hood Chattahuchi mama
>> there's a song there's a country song
>> Chattahuchi
>> Chattahuchi
>> the Chattahuchi River in spring of 1981
after noticing a pattern of bodies being
dumped near the daughter. Uh, so this is
ultimately how they call her Wayne
Williams.
>> Well, this is how they get on to him.
But yeah, this is Listen, this is so
this is good oldfashioned police.
>> I know. This is when cops were [ __ ]
cops, dude. This is when you stake out
for hours in a shitty little [ __ ]
Ford Caprice, right? Chevy Capri, bunch
of bad coffee, a bunch of [ __ ]
donuts, cigarettes, and you're just
talking about your old ladies. It's
Atlanta.
>> Yeah,
>> it's Atlanta in the in the early 80s.
It's hot as [ __ ] There's mosquitoes.
Can you imagine how [ __ ] miserable
you are? You have to sit there for a
[ __ ] 12 hour shift on the just just
on the side of the bridge and you're
like, "Oh my god, it's just miserable."
>> I'd be I'd be an alcoholic, too.
>> Yeah. 3 a.m. at 3.
>> No wonder these guys want to use flock
cameras cuz they're like, "You have no
idea how much easier this makes our
job." Like, I get why cops want to use
it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um in the early morning hours. So,
they're staking out they're basically
staking cops out at these at like these
bridges.
>> These bridges over the Chattahuchi Mama
RI rivers uh river because
>> it's a lot of bridges.
>> It's a lot of [ __ ] bridges, bro.
>> In in Atlanta. Yeah. Lots of rivers in
Atlanta.
>> Well, it's the Chattahuchi River, but
it's the bridges, the overpasses over
the Chattahuchi.
>> Yeah, there's but there's lots of
bridges. Like, they've got lots of cops
on on different bridges. So,
>> Chattahuchi Mama, you didn't give me
enough on the Chattahuchi Mama. I'll
play the song. You'll love it.
>> You do it. No. No. No. But hood rat.
Hood rat. Hoochie mama. And I said
chhattedi mama. I'm
>> not doing that. We're not doing that.
>> All right. Well, we're about done here.
>> Country music song. Chattahuchi.
>> We can't play this though.
>> I know. Doesn't matter.
>> Ladies and gentlemen, we just listened.
I just You just saw Johnny Mitchell get
the most hick he will ever get.
Hotter than a $2 pistol. Well, I had sex
with a street walking prostitute. Now I
got the clap. Like it's it's they make
everything sound just kind of hokey.
>> Yeah.
>> You know?
>> Yeah.
>> Um Yeah. That's the Chattahuchi. Rewrite
that with they had to take out the
lyrics about throwing the black kids
over the over the bridge in the
Chattahuchi cuz they were like we can't
play that on the radio.
>> So we were kidnapping kids.
We [ __ ] threw him over the bridge.
>> Yeah. It's uh it is catchy.
>> Yeah. So the cops are sitting there on
the bridge. This one cop sitting there
and uh it's in the morning.
>> May 22nd, 1981. Police are staking out
the James Jackson Parkway bridge over
the Chattahuchi. They hear a splash.
They hear a a splash. They're awakened
all of a sudden out of their boredom,
right? Uh and then they see what turns
out to be Wayne Williams car crossing
the bridge. Yeah. What he what happens
is the one it was one cop. He jumps out
of his car. He he runs down to the to
the edge, looks in, and he can see you
like the water ripples like like a a
circle, right? And this guy, by the way,
was an avid was like a professional
swimmer or something like that. And
>> Oh, the cop.
>> Yeah, the cop. had been um and so and he
said as soon as he heard it he said it
sounded like a body hitting the [ __ ]
hitting the river. So he opened the car
door, walked over, looked, and he said
he could see the ripples, and then he
was walking back to his car to get into
his vehicle cuz he said, "I sat there
for a minute, but I didn't see a body."
And he was getting in his car and he
looked on up on the bridge and saw the
lights come on of a vehicle that was on
the bridge
>> and then the vehicle started down and
then made a U-turn.
>> Maybe he saw the cop. I don't know. But
he said he makes a U-turn and then so
the cop starts following him. calls in
to another cop on the other side of the
bridge. That cop as this guy goes by, he
turns around. Now they got two cops cars
following him. They pull him over. They
pull over old Wayne. They walk up to
him, talk to him, and as he he asks for
his driver's license. As he's handing it
to him, he goes, "What's Wayne says,
"Well, what's this about?" And he goes,
he said, "Well, we're just just
checking, you know, we're just doing
some surveillance here." And he said,
and and Wayne says, uh, this is about
them kids, isn't it?
>> And he's like,
it's funny that you would say, you know
what I'm saying? That's funny you would
say. Like, he just thinks that. He's
like, that's an odd thing out of
anything it could be at in the
morning.
>> Well,
>> that's what you think.
>> But the guy, you know, the whole city's
aware of the child murders. They're
probably aware that their bodies are
getting dropped in the Chattahuchi
River. But also, what are you doing on
the in that area at a.m.?
>> Right. So he says there's a name of a
girl. I forget the name of the girl, but
it sounds so generic. It's like, you
know, oh, it was, you know, so and so
John, you know, Jennifer Johnson or
something. I forget.
>> Atlanta Williams or Johnson.
>> So he says, I'm I'm supposed to meet
with her. I'm going to interview her or
audition. I'm auditioning her at
this morning. So I'm trying to find the
the apartment that she or the address
that she he she gave me. And he goes,
"What?
>> It's a.m."
>> Yeah. He goes, "It's a.m." He's
like, "That doesn't make sense." "Well,
I just want to locate the house
beforehand, but I I might meet her at
." And he's like, "Okay." And then
he says, "Well, what's the address?" So,
he gives him the address and her phone
number. Said, "Yeah, I got a phone call
from her earlier or yesterday. I'm just
checking it out." He goes, "Okay." The
phone number goes to nobody, by the way.
And the address leads uh leads to an an
apartment or an apartment
area because it really doesn't lead to
anything.
And everybody in the area they all the
landlords and everything they question
everybody like there is no woman named
this. They've never rented any woman
named this. This is this is absolutely
not true. I believe it's an apartment
complex or something. They said nobody's
ever lived here by that end. There is no
there's no it's absolutely all [ __ ]
>> Mhm.
>> But they question him. They ask him if
they can search the vehicle. I think he
allows them to search the vehicle and
but they don't arrest him.
>> All right. But they probably do you
think they they grab a piece of fiber
from the car?
>> They don't take anything. No, they don't
take anything. They just look through
the car and I think there are some
clothing. There's some clothing in the
car that he has some benign explanation
for that
>> semi. Oh, those are from my mom and oh
those yeah, I I change clothes after I
work out. Those are my clothes. And
they're like, okay. But he's a he's a
small guy, by the way. He's like 5'6,
>> right?
>> Um and they let him go,
>> but they get his name, they get his
info, of course. So now they got a
suspect.
>> They definitely feel like something's
not right.
>> Two days later is when they find what
may have been the body that they heard
hitting the water.
>> Floats up down the way down the river. I
mean like the the
>> It must be a pretty big deep river.
>> It is.
>> If you could just throw a body down
there and then it would just sink.
>> Oh yeah. This isn't a stream. This is
[ __ ] This thing is long.
>> Yeah. This thing is
>> what a football field wide
in in parts. In parts. Sometimes it
narrows, but Yeah.
and and it's, you know, obviously and
there's a current. There's a decent
current. See?
>> Yeah. It's a big bastard. Yeah.
>> Runs all the way from northern Georgia
uh down to the panhandle, Florida.
>> So there's there's also a good size a
good current. So where the body
>> the body washes up, they determine that
it's very possible that it had that it
would have been thrown off the bridge
during this time basic time period and
they can't pinpoint it, but and that the
body would have traveled this distance
and washed up on the shore.
>> Yeah. So, it's very it's not like it's
like, "Oh, no, no, there's no way it
could have traveled this far or it would
have traveled way further." No, no, this
is very reasonable.
>> Uh, the body of 27year-old Nathaniel
Kedar. So, yeah, this is an adult, an a
rare adult that is caught up in these
murders. Um, and was was that body uh
what was the cause of death?
Strangulation. Okay.
>> Uh, investigators built their case
largely on fiverr and hair evidence
linking Williams to the victim. So, what
I want to know is when did they execute
the search warrant to actually go into
his house to to grab the the fibers from
the carpet, from his car, etc. You can
you go into that?
>> I mean, barely right after they find the
body because they can match the carpet.
So, uh they even though the body was
thrown in, there's still there's still
carpet fibers on him.
>> Uh I want Is this the one where it was
the it's wedged in the shoe? like his
shoe had I think had like a cut in it
and really wedged in.
>> So
>> that's amazing. That's amazing that even
back in 1981 they could find a a hair
fiber after a body had been thrown in a
river.
>> Yeah,
>> that's [ __ ] amazing.
>> It probably had a lot of them, but it
they just got washed away, right? You
know.
>> Okay, so they they grab that. When do
they get because shortly after they they
initially make contact with Wayne
Williams, like a literally a month later
they arrest him. So,
>> well, they ask first they ask him to
come in and be interviewed. They come
in, they interview him, they ask him to
take a polygraph, which he has cuz he's
so [ __ ] arroant. He takes it
>> and he fails its miserably.
>> Yeah. Chris Watts level bombs.
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's bad. And and um
they all but basically accuse him of of
killing of killing being killing this
guy and killing the the children. Those
are questions that are on the
>> but I need to know the evidence, man.
What's the What's the evidence?
>> He goes home and that's how they get a
search warrant. And then they come to
his parents' house and they go through
and they take samples of everything in
the house, including they go into the
car and they take samples of the car and
they find out that the dog had is was
constantly in the back seat. Well, this
is also once he's there assume he's
killing people. He's he's killing these
kids in the in the car, by the way. They
believe he's killing him in the car
because the the attacks that happened
from the other kids said that he got
them in the car,
>> right?
>> So, they're assuming this is what
happens. He takes them, he molests them
somehow,
>> and then he ends up choking them to
death or strangling them orphixiating
them, however.
>> And it makes sense because he's a small
guy. So, he he's not doing this to many
adults. Many not many grown men are
allowing a 5, six.
>> And he he hates these. He doesn't like
these kids cuz he's they're less they're
less than human, these little drugs.
>> These are like ghetto kids.
>> Yeah. Like I said, he's got the little
names for them, like Rugrats, but it's
not Rugrats. He's got two or three.
They're silly.
>> How do we know that he's giving him
names?
>> Um, nicknames.
>> Well, because other people that were
around him, other people in the music
industry
>> world. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Would say that when he would bring
them in and he would talk about trying
to find them that he would he would call
them different names. He had different
little names for them.
>> It's interesting. It's interesting the
psychology,
you know, you think that especially back
then, you know, black people were super
unified and and had this kind of
solidarity based around their their skin
color and and their the history of
injustice in America. But
>> but you know, the classism in in the
black community is is very stark. And
especially back then, yeah, there was
this this superiority. Usually it had to
do with like skin color. Well, he's I'm
light-skinned, you know, so I they kind
of look down on like super dark black
people, but I think class actually has
more to do with it, you know. Yeah. Like
middle class
>> black snobs they would call.
>> What about educ? I think education would
separate you two.
>> Well, that's part of it, too. That's
part of the classism that it comes from,
right? But it's just so shocking cuz his
parents are teachers, you know, educated
probably instilled in him, you know, a
sense of his history, uh, you know,
being the descendants of slaves in
America and all that. Uh, but he's
internalizing it, right? And he's and
yeah, he he wants to separate he wants
to create an otherness between himself
and the the, you know, the mass of poor
poor blacks, poor oppressed black people
in Atlanta, you know. So, it's it's
fascinating, but okay. So, they dig up.
What do they find in the searches
>> right here?
>> Investigators obtained and executed the
first formal search warrant for Williams
home and car. That was on June 3rd. Uh
during this initial entry, they matched
unusual yellow green carpet fibers, as
you were saying, the company, they don't
make many of them because they weren't
selling. unusual yellow green carpet
fibers found on victim Nathaniel Kedar
to the carpeting inside of Williams's
residence. So they made a match.
>> Yeah.
>> On the adult body,
>> right? This is so the the bulk of the
evidence is on two two adults.
>> Um
>> what was the other adult?
>> Jimmy Ray Payne.
>> Yeah,
>> Jimmy Ray Payne. Uh 21 years of age. So
those are the two bodies that they
basically they put on it cuz they don't
have evidence from the kids. All they
have is basically the the kids that
escaped saying he's the one who tried to
kidnap me,
>> right? Well, there are carpet fibers on
these kids. This is listen, this is
what's so strange and they talk about
this is like they could never really
understand. Well, when they were
eventually, let me put this there is an
explanation. is just not a good
explanation where once he was found
guilty,
>> they say, "Are you going to bring the
cases against?" And I want to say it was
like eight more kids
>> that that all had carpet fiber on them
that they could specifically link to uh
Wayne Williams's bedroom and house and
car
>> that
>> the I don't know who it was, the
prosecutor, whoever it was. He ends up
coming out and and saying, and I mean
like the state prosecutor,
>> right? The state's attorney,
>> right? State. Thank you. State's
attorney. He comes out and he says, "I'm
not going to waste the taxpayers's
money. We've got him for two murders.
He's got a life sentence. He's done.
We're not going to waste the taxpayer
money to try him on eight more bodies
that we know he's responsible for."
>> I know. That's it.
>> And people didn't like that.
>> Of course, they never like that.
>> But I kind of agree because it's like,
okay, if you're putting all these
resources into finding him, try him
because it does it is closure for the
families,
>> right? Well, listen, they don't give a
[ __ ] about the families. And that they
don't. Did you see the interview with
the the the one mother? This is a this
is the mother of a little boy that for
40 years cuz they interviewed her. She
it had been exactly 40 years. So I think
now it's 45, but it was 40 years. She
said not one time had the had the police
ever come to her and shown her any
evidence. And for 40 years when they
would ask people like, "Do you think are
you are you glad that Wayne Williams is
uh is locked up?" She would say that man
didn't kill my son.
>> That man they don't she believed because
she was following what other victim's
families were saying where we don't
think they got the right guy. We think
and so she was listening to what they
were saying. And so the interviewer said
you've never seen the evidence and she
goes no.
>> And he went do you want to see it? And
she was like well yeah I don't think he
did it. And they went well let me show
you the evidence. And they lay out the
evidence over the next hour or two. And
when she's done, she said, "Oh, yeah,
that man killed my my baby."
>> But but the fact that the cops didn't
even bother to go around and show her.
Like, what do you think people are going
to start assuming? Right. Of course, you
have like these conspiracies.
>> Why not try? I mean, you know, the
families are out there saying this [ __ ]
Why not make an attempt to say, "Hey,
can we invite?" You don't have to go
door to door if you don't want to. If
you're thinking that's a that's a pain
in the ass, then invite all of them to
come in and lay out. And we're not even
talking about before the trial. I get
before the trial that the evidence you
don't want to show everybody the
evidence. You don't want to give the
them too much of an opportunity to fight
against it, whatever.
>> Um, but afterward you're you you're not
going to try him for the murder of your
ch of these children. At le you could
bring them in. You could bring all and
this is a lot of families. This has got
to I mean there's a lot of family
members. There's probably a hundred, you
know, cuz if there's 30 victims, right?
Let's say there's three people. Three
people family members for every one
child. You're talking about 100 people.
You could go to a a a high school
auditorium and bring them in and bring
in some [ __ ] chairs and lay out your
case
>> and I'll bet you within two hours all of
those people are like, "Yeah, you this
is the right guy." and left.
>> Because here's what we know. We know
that just on two people with good solid
uh police work and evidence,
>> 12 jurors looked at it and all of them
were like, "Yeah, he did it.
>> He did it." There's not 5 days of
delivery. No,
>> this is quick.
>> No,
>> they know. And he's, by the way, he
takes when they arrest him eventually.
We can get to that, but we need to talk
about him being on the stand.
>> Yes. Oh my god. You know who this guy
reminds me of? Kanye West
>> in terms of just the insanity like like
the delusion, right? Uh where people why
he's like,
>> "What do you mean people get mad? People
say you call yourself Jesus. Who do you
think you are? I just said I'm Jesus."
Right? like it it's it's this it's like
a manic it's a mania thing. It's a
mental illness, you know.
>> Um although this guy didn't really have
the talent uh to get away with it, but
he reminds me of Kanye just just
slipping further and further into his
delusion. Um
>> so look again, I'm from what you've told
me because you know a little bit more
about this than I do. I still am not
seeing a bunch of evidence.
>> I got to be honest with you. I hate this
guy. He sucks. I'm not seeing a ton of
[ __ ] evidence yet. Uh,
>> but back in the 80s, this is this is
what they had. This is what and there's
not as many people living there. The the
the fact is if if you said, "Hey, and
look look at the just statistically,
right? Like just mathematically,
>> we've got the carpet fibers from your
vehicle. We have dog hairs. We have
carpet fibers from your bedroom. They
all ended up on this dead kid. You don't
have an alibi for where he he ended up
missing. You know, that's pretty solid.
The idea that you're gonna say, you
could might say, "Okay, well, that
carpet fiber could be found in somebody
else's car, right?" But do they also are
they also driving your vehicle? Oh,
wait. Do they also have a German
Shepherd? Like, come on. You start
overlaying it. It's like, listen,
statistically, it's one in [ __ ] one
in 20,000.
>> So, is that beyond a reasonable doubt?
>> The jury thought so. And and by the way,
that's that's not for the kids. I mean,
for that that's what's going on with the
kids, right? um they had more evidence
for the two. That's why they only get
them on the two adults.
>> Okay. So, he's arrested in June of 81
and on January 6th, 1982, the trial of
Wayne Williams begins in Fulton County
Superior Court in Atlanta, presided by
Judge Clarence Cooper. You think that's
an old school black guy? Clarence
Cooper. Uh though Williams was formerly
charged only with the murders of the two
adult men, Kedar and Payne, prosecutors
led by Fulton County DA Lewis Sllayton
and prosecutor Joseph Dollet
successfully petitioned the court to
allow evidence, well, this is rare, to
allow evidence connected to 10
additional child murder victims to be
introduced at trial under Georgia's
similar transaction rule. That is
actually super rare, especially on a
state level. Now, on a federal level,
you can use during sentencing, even if
you're only convicted of, say, drug
trafficking. But if there's murders
connected to your organization, they can
use that uh in determining the sentence,
which is extremely [ __ ] up.
>> Yeah, that's [ __ ]
>> That's some [ __ ] Total total
[ __ ]
>> Yeah. Some some guy that happen I happen
to know murdered somebody. Like, come
on. You don't know that I have I have
nothing to do like that could have
nothing to do with that.
>> Yeah. So, I talked to a guy or I sold
drugs to a guy once who then went who
then went and killed somebody, but yet I
got to get sentenced for that. [ __ ] off.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway, so that's again one of the huge
problems with the federal system.
>> But Georgia's got this weird rule,
right? It's Georgia. It's a hang them
high state. So, the similar transaction
rule uh basically allows for evidence
across other cases that are relevant to
proving the guilt in what he's actually
being charged with. So, this is a little
different than the sentencing. So, it's
a little less unfair, I would say.
Although, there's probably problems with
this, too, right? So, that's why you're
able to get children up there that say,
"This guy attempted to kidnap me even
though he's being charged with
homicide." Even though he was never
charged with that,
>> right?
>> Charged with with this kid.
>> What's he doing up here on the sand?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. What do you think? I mean, yeah.
It's it's to me that's that leaves open
uh the that leaves open appeals, right?
Like if I'm looking at that and and
saying if I'm a legislature a
legislator, and I'm like, "Yeah, we have
so many open appeals and it's costing us
a lot of money. Maybe we should get rid
of the similar transactions rule." Yeah.
you know, but anyways, that's what is
going on with this case. Now, the
prosecution's case rests heavily on the
fiber and hair evidence, as you've
talked about. Now, prosecutors presented
testimony that unusual carpet fibers
found on several of the victim's bodies
were microscopically
consistent with the distinctive green
carpet found in the Williams family
home, as well as fibers matching
material from Williams own vehicle and
his family's dog hair. Now the own
vehicle that makes more sense to me.
>> Yeah.
>> But you know what kind of car was he
driving? I'll bet you'll bet a lot of
other people driving that car too,
right? So
>> yeah, but the combination of that car
plus the fibers plus the dog hair. Like
it's just people got German jeopardy.
>> Stop with that. There's no way in in
that combination. There's no way.
>> God, I'm the worst juror. Everybody I'm
the worst juror. Every all the other 11
people are like,
>> "Can we get an alter here? Can we get an
alternate?"
>> I'm like, "I DON'T KNOW, GUYS.
I don't know.
>> I mean, yeah, there's video, but that
could be somebody else wearing a mask.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Abso [ __ ] lutely.
>> You guys have seen Mission Impossible.
Those masks are amazing.
>> You guys have seen Jury Duty with Paulie
Shore. He's he's the the premise. This
was the '9s. This was entertainment in
the '9s. Just to show you the era that I
missed out on. The whole movie, the
whole crux of the movie is based around
Paulie Shore getting put up in a
five-star hotel by the state. He doesn't
want to leave the hotel. So, he keeps
delaying the guilty verdict. That's the
entire movie. God, entertainment was
easy back then. [ __ ] I was born at the
wrong time. And it featured Paulie
Shore. They let Paulie Shore be a movie
star.
>> He had multiple movies.
>> Yes.
>> In Cen Man. And Cen Man was actually
kind of funny, but boy did he have some
bombs.
>> Have you guys seen the new Jury Duty?
Like the TV show?
>> They made a [ __ ] Oh, no.
>> No. It's a It's a TV show.
>> Is it a spin-off from the movie?
>> No, no, no. Where the everyone's an
actor? The the jury, the court, the
judge, except for one guy,
>> and they and they film him for like
weeks. Like things happen at the hotel,
things happen at the case.
>> It's just straight insanity.
>> Everybody's in the app. There's like
there's like 50 actors and one
unsuspecting guy. He has no idea.
>> Oh, so it's a reality show.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, that's kind of
>> kind of a good idea.
>> That's actually hilarious. Yeah. I
wonder what the the scenarios are.
>> Oh, I mean it's just Soaking was in it.
That's where I learned about Soaking.
>> Yes. Soaking. We talked about
>> Soaking during jury duty at the hotel.
Like the the the cast of the jury is
just these crazy characters. Um and
yeah, it's it's insane. guy calling home
like these [ __ ]
>> Yeah, exactly. And then there's like a a
reveal at the end after after the
verdict they're like, "Yeah, this has
all been fake." Like the last two weeks
of your life have just been
>> all a game and like
>> Wow. So people think they're actually
going in there.
>> People think they're going just the one
guy.
>> It's one one guy everybody else is in on
it.
>> So that's like the the game with Michael
Douglas. It's like a whole world set up.
>> Or um uh The Truman Show. Yes. It's like
it's some Truman Show.
>> Exactly. There's actually been two
seasons. So, first was Jury Duty. Yeah.
The second season was called Company
Retreat where this guy gets hired as a
temp worker. Like, oh, you're going to
work for us for a month. Like, you're
just really going to help with the
retreat. You're going to train and then
help with the retreat and he goes on
this retreat and everything is a stage
like the whole entire thing.
>> You got some legal liability potential.
>> It's hilarious though. You're sitting
there and like cuz it's a retreat. They
bring in speakers and the speakers
saying crazy [ __ ] that's what they
do.
>> But I I'm saying that's what retreats
are. So you get some guy who comes in,
he's [ __ ] in saying like here's how
you need to sell and he's telling you
crazy [ __ ] and you're like everybody
else is like, "Yeah, yeah." You're going
like, "You can't say that." I got this
idea for a reality showing. Yeah. I got
this idea for a reality show where you
it's in Hollywood and it's called like
[ __ ] with actors or something and
basically you put out a casting call for
actors.
>> Basically [ __ ] with them non-stop.
>> Can you do it again but with blue eyes?
>> Can you do it with a British accent?
>> Huh?
>> Say this like a black girl and like like
you whatever you give and and the
scripts are like [ __ ] insane, you
know? you're like, "Actually, we decided
to uh change it up on the fly. Do you
want to read these lines?" And it's like
minecom or something like whatever. I
think it's [ __ ] brilliant. And actors
are the most desperate people that want
to just they want the job. Yeah. So,
they're going to do it. Now, can you
jump up and down kind of
Oh, that's going to be a hit, dude.
>> I think we're a little too famous though
to be the front runners now. You don't
have to have like
>> What's so funny about that is that like
>> we could do this right now. That could
that could be right now. That that's how
small budget is. Yeah. You just we just
rent one of these [ __ ] offices cuz
you've seen the things they have like
it's just like a shitty table and a
couple of chairs and people in a waiting
room and they come and sit down. You
could rent out some doctor's office,
right,
>> that's being try they're trying to rent
out. You say, "Look, I need to rent it
out for a month.
>> Should we do this?"
>> [ __ ] hell.
>> I think we should do this. the my the
they but think of it in a way it would
be good if we were in on it because if
they saw us they'd be like I've seen you
bro.
>> Oh yeah the podcasters. Oh you guys you
guys are you developing a TV show.
>> Oh this is amazing.
>> It's a sitcom.
>> It's a sitcom.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So read these lines. So yeah but
you know what's so funny is when they
walk in you say look you know we're
going to give you
>> Oh no they're you have to sign off. to
sign off on and just one of the many
many many things says you're allowing
this to be taped and used and utilized.
>> No, we're slide that in there amongst
>> five pages that they're not going to
read. Initial initial initial sign.
Okay, cool.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, are you done with that?
We got to hurry up. Oh, yeah. Sure.
>> You know what's funny? When it's
completely done, you let them leave and
never tell them anything. JUST ONE DAY
OUT. One day they're like, "No, we're
going to we're going to completely waste
their time." and their their buddies are
suddenly two months later their buddies
like do you know you're on the new
episode of Scream of [ __ ] with
actors.
>> Yeah. [ __ ] with Did you know that?
Did you realize like bro what were you
you did the you did the you did the the
windmill or you know you did the what
were YOU
got to blur out.
>> Hey you were doing an SS Nazi watch.
What was what was with Yeah, exactly.
Oh,
>> what was with you reading mine comp? Did
you know that was mine comp?
>> Oh my god. Yeah,
>> you did the Nazi salute. I didn't know
that you did the Nazi salute.
>> Oh my goodness. This will be a waste if
we don't do that. Okay, now back to the
trial of Wayne Williams.
>> I couldn't keep a straight face if I was
doing that. Go ahead.
>> Williams testified in his own defense
just like Alex Murdo and all the other
guilty people whose lawyers thought that
was a good idea.
>> Brilliant. I listen listen. In his
lawyer's defense, I watched an interview
with his lawyer. Did you watch this?
>> Oh my god, he was a lot. His lawyer was
like, "God damn it, how did I get a
female lawyer?"
>> Yeah.
>> This was a female lawyer. Yeah. She was
she was Yeah, exactly. She was like he
was Yeah, he was
>> You have nightmare clients. My our
friend is a lawyer. He was a defense
lawyer. Um after his he got a a guilty
verdict for his client. Uh the judge
goes, "Do do you have anything to say?"
the the guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy
guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy
guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy
guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy guy
guy guy guy stands up turns and [ __ ]
punches punches my dad's friend just
serves him dude
>> [ __ ] classic
>> classic bro classic so yeah there's some
nightmare clients that criminal defense
attorneys have and Wayne Williams was
one of them I guarantee it talk about
what the lawyer said
>> um yeah his lawyer was like because
they're they're saying like you know
they allowed the children to get up
there and they allowed all that evidence
to come how do you defend against that
and she goes you She
>> what am I going to say? She goes they
wouldn't we didn't even know which kid
or or which kids they were going to
highlight out of 30. They we didn't know
who they were even going to talk about.
>> So I guess I guess what would be the
argument to that? Well you you say
motion to not allow.
>> Oh yeah. She they they fought it but the
judge was like no I'm going to let it
in. So you know what do you do? And like
everything they were saying they were
like well how do you defend against
this? She's like I can't.
>> What am I supposed to say? Like the guy
said he was
>> So there was 11 children that said this
guy tried to kidnap me.
>> No, I don't think there was 11. I think
there were No, I think there was three
that
>> according to this
>> Oh, there were that said
>> 10 additional child murder victims. Oh,
in No, no, no. I'm sorry. Those were the
10 additional victims that they were
being allowed. The evidence around those
was allowed in the trial.
>> I was going to say, it kind of does
sound unfair. On its face, it sounds
unfair.
>> It does seem unfair. And what's funny is
you have enough to get him on the two on
on the on the two guys. I don't think
you need this, but maybe they wanted it
to be like, hey, there's a bigger
there's something bigger here.
>> It's what it's trying to do is overwhelm
the jury. It's trying to sway the jury,
obviously. Okay. So, talk about Wayne
Williams. Talk about him defending
himself.
>> So, the his first day of testimony, he
is emotionless.
He's very kind of just, you know,
arrogant. Did you see the one thing when
they were interviewing him and he said
they said so what were you doing uh why
were you uh why were you crossing the
the bridge and he goes to get to the
other side
>> right
>> and they were like yeah haha you know
and and he was like
>> and and you but nobody's laugh like this
is a serious thing
>> right
>> so
>> he he goes through the whole first day
they said he was emotionless he said
nothing so that
>> that day and this is you're on trial for
your life here right so his attorney the
next day talked to him and said,
"Listen, you're on trial for your life.
You're emotionalist. Like, you need to
show some emotion. You need to realize
this is serious and take it serious.
Like, don't make jokes and know." So,
she gives him a good talking to. Then,
he goes on and
the while he's being interviewed, he
gets angry. Like, he's Now, granted,
he's being really it's a serious uh it's
a serious cross-examination, but he gets
angry. He starts yelling. He yells back.
He's calling He He calls the prosecutor
names. He tells everybody it's a joke.
He said, "All the evidence is hearsay.
You people are fools." And what was the
one thing he did? Oh. Oh, I know. He
does he does this whole thing where he
goes, "You want to see the real uh Wayne
Williams? YOU WANT TO SEE THE REAL WAY?"
LIKE THEY said he got so [ __ ] angry
and infuriated. And she said the problem
with that was this. She said everybody
that thought he was docile before and
that he was emotionless and docile, they
didn't see him as necessarily
threatening, but when he got angry and
started screaming and hollering, you
right away saw this guy has the capacity
to do a real violence,
>> right? Especially against children,
>> right? The other the other thing is
their defense was was that the grown man
that was thrown over I forget his name.
The victim that was thrown over the the
bridge her defense was he's a small
Wayne Williams is a small guy. He's 5'5
5'6. He weighs 145 pounds. He's not
physically strong enough to lift this
guy up over the railing and throw him
over.
>> It's a good point.
>> Right. But that guy, the other guy, by
the way, was not a big guy either.
Probably weighed 130 lbs.
>> Yeah, you can drag a guy. You can do it.
>> And here's what happens is that they
bring them to the bridge, the whole
jury.
>> Wow.
>> And she says, "That was a mistake." One
of the jurors said, "That was a mistake.
That was a mistake." And they, "Why? Why
was it a mistake?" She said, "Cuz their
whole premise was he couldn't possibly
have got pulled this guy out of his
vehicle and thrown him over the bridge."
She said, and then when we went to the
bridge, she said, "The railing isn't
>> up and over." She said, "The railing is
is 2 and 1/2 ft tall, 3 feet tall." She
and I looked at it and I thought, "This
guy's this was a man that was about 120
lb, 130 lb." She said, "I could have
thrown him over this,
>> right?
>> I could have pulled him out of the car
and I could have pushed him over this
thing."
>> Yeah. You just drag. You don't have to
lift the bo bench press the body and
throw it over your head. Drag it over.
>> Right. And she said, "So it immediately
what seemed like, yeah, that does seem
like it'd be really difficult to do in
the middle of the night." She said,
"Suddenly re I realized that's not
difficult at all. I could do that."
>> That is so unusual. They actually the
defense physically brought the 12 jurors
out there.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> So as a result of Well, remember they
did it with OJ the OJ Simpson. Remember
they brought him to the They actually
bring OJ Simpson
>> to Bundy.
>> No. No.
>> To where?
>> Bundy.
>> Bundy Drive. Yeah. They bring the jury
out to um uh
>> you know his house.
>> Yeah. They brought him out but they
brought them out to the house
>> because it was the Ko Kalin. They wanted
to prove that it
>> where the blood evidence was where
everything was found. Yeah. But they
actually pick him up and bring him out
there.
>> Wow.
>> So, and then that that happen. I think
that happens every once in a while.
>> Do they bring Wayne Williams out to the
bridge?
>> I don't know. I know they brought the
jury.
>> They wouldn't need him, you know,
>> but they could have brought him. I mean,
he's in cuffs. He's not getting away.
So, the point is that they made some
mistakes, but they they look, it's hard.
It's hard to defend against this much
evidence and this many people that get
on the stand and and your [ __ ]
client's a jackass.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, he's found he's found guilty.
>> Yeah. So, they don't have any alibis.
They don't have any
>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. It's
weird because they don't have a lot of
evidence, but they don't have a lot of
defense. Mhm.
>> They have slightly more evidence than
they do defense,
>> right?
>> And so I guess that's enough. Two
consecutive life terms he's sentenced to
after a 12-hour jury deliberation. So
they did deliberate for 12 hours. They
only gave murder 3 hours.
>> They wanted to get lunch. They want to
get lunch and dinner. It's a free lunch
and a free dinner.
>> Right. Let's stretch this out to the
end. It's Friday. Let's just We get in
there at 8. We got a nice big buffet.
>> Yeah. Get the We got to get We have to
do the whole thing or we don't get paid
for today.
>> Oh. And we get free food,
>> right?
>> [ __ ] it.
>> People love free food.
>> Drag this out.
>> Uh, after Williams conviction, Atlanta
police and city officials publicly
stated their belief that Williams was
responsible for the large majority of
the broader child murder task force
cases, reportedly attri attributing as
many as 22
uh or 24 of the total 29 to 30 killings.
Uh, but he was never formally charged or
tried for any of those other deaths. Um,
officials said pursuing additional
prosecution see was unnecessary given
that he was going to die in prison. Uh,
again, you know, the thing is what we
talked about with the families, the
closure with the families, but who gives
a [ __ ] about them? Williams has
maintained his innocence in all of these
killings. Obviously, uh, the Georgia
Supreme Court upheld his conviction in
1984, plus subsequent appeals, including
one addressing later DNA based hair
analysis in the9s that reportedly showed
a 98% probability of a match to
Williams.
That's 2%, bro. Like, that's that's too
much, man. In my opinion, I I I don't
know, bro. I I don't The fibers, the dog
hair, his hair,
>> it's not an absence of an exact match.
It's not genealogy. If it been been done
with the genealogy, then there's no
question.
>> I mean, I I would I guess I'd love to
live in your world because I'd just be
able to rob and and and just do whatever
I wanted and I'd never get get caught
>> as long as there was a jury full of guys
like you.
>> I You know why? Cuz I see the best in
people.
>> No flock cameras. There's no
>> Matt. I'm sorry that I see the best in
people.
>> I don't I've met too many people.
>> Yeah. I don't know. There's a problem.
There were broader concerns about the
reliability of fiber-based evidence,
which is why they did the DNA. So, the
case reopened, bro. So, I'm about the
only person that thinks this is kind of
sketchy. Decades after the conviction,
the case returned to the national
spotlight because remember, this isn't
super A lot of people haven't heard of
this, but in Atlanta, it's like the
biggest mass killing that ever happened.
Uh, in March 2019, then Atlanta mayor
Kesha Kesha Lance, I'm sorry. If your
name's Kesha, you can't be definition of
power.
>> Is that European?
>> Kishha.
>> Is that a European name?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's Dutch.
>> Russian. Yeah.
>> Kisha. It is Russian. My name Kesha
Lance. I'm from St. Petersburg. Uh,
Kesha Lance. Uh, Botms is her name. K.
Kesha Lance Bottoms.
Yeah, she's sketchy. Uh alongside the
Atlanta City Police Department, Fulton
County Authorities, and the Georgia
Bureau of Investigation, uh they
announced that the Atlanta child murder
cases cases would be re-examined using
modern DNA technology unavailable at the
time of the original investigation.
Officials extended the timeline under
review from roughly 1970 to actually go
back even further and look at more
bodies all the way up to 1985 to account
for any additional victims potentially
potentially connected to the killings,
but never formally included them in the
original task force list. By late 21,
Atlanta police had sent degraded DNA
evidence from the case to a specialty
lab in Salt Lake City with expertise in
analyzing older deteriorated genetic
material. In 22, officials confirmed
that investigators had successfully
extracted usable DNA connected to at
least two of the child murder cases for
further analysis. So, they extracted
usable DNA, right? That's I guess hair
fiber is not considered DNA. It's
considered something different, like
it's distinct. Williams, now represented
by a new attorney, Janice Man, publicly
welcomed the re-examination, expressing
hope the results would exonerate him.
So, he went before the parole board in
2019. Wayne Williams, he was obviously
denied. His next parole consideration is
November of 2027. What's going on with
this DNA?
>> That's just it's not back yet or
whatever. They're still looking
>> back in 2022.
>> Still looking into it.
>> Yeah, we'll get to it.
>> We'll get to it.
>> I think this means that
>> he probably doesn't exonerate him and
the city just wants to like keep it on
the hush hush. That's what this tells
me.
>> That I mean, you think the people in the
city want him exonerated? Uh yeah. Uh
that's what that tells me. And because
why would it take four years for DNA to
come back?
>> I don't know. That doesn't make sense to
me. But whatever. I I just don't think
>> it probably does not exonerate them. I
I'm sure. First of all, I'm sure it is.
The guy's 100% GUILTY.
>> HE'S NOT. HE'S 98% GUILTY. IT'S 2% NOT.
JERRY, COME ON. JERRY.
MATT, you can't just say that because
you're a racist. You are racist, but you
can't just say he's 100% guilty.
>> No, he's guilty because he did it.
>> And you can't say he's a racist.
>> And you can't say that either because
everybody that prosecuted him.
>> I sort of cancel my co-host.
>> Like shooting holes in your own boat.
>> I know. I know. I know. Um Yeah, but
black people could be racist too against
other black people. This guy was racist
against other black people.
>> Um look, he [ __ ] did it. I mean, I
don't
>> give a [ __ ] anymore.
>> The the other thing is that the after
he's arrested, like these murders stop.
Now, I'm not saying that there's not
other murders and that there aren't
other kids that die, but they they die
instead of being killed like every two
weeks. Now, suddenly it's twice a year,
you know, three times.
>> It's not and it's not in the same way
that these kids were being they weren't
being dumped in the
>> Chattahuchi.
>> Right. Right.
>> So, you know,
>> Yeah. This guy sucks. [ __ ] him. Uh you
guys, this has been uh we did our best.
We did our best. Uh we've hope you
enjoyed it. We had some good moments. We
had some good moments. Yeah.
>> Hey, I wish I could stay out here
another week.
>> Wouldn't that be great?
>> Comment if you like that idea though for
our reality show.
>> That's We might have to look into that,
dude. Uh you guys, my name's BEEN JOHNNY
MITCHELL. MATTHEW,
tell them what the folks can do. Tell
them what they can do.
>> We really appreciate you watching the
Murder Men. We're going to put all the
links to our other social media uh
platforms in the description. Go there
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