That's all you guys want, as Christians.
You just want to be angels in heaven,
right?
>> But we won't have exaltation.
>> Well, you don't want to become like God.
>> Okay, so let's get to the point. You
think you could become like God, you
could be God.
>> what the scriptures teach.
>> So, it's funny, but it's also like
>> So, I think Joseph Smith could be
leading millions and millions of people
to hell with his false teachings.
>> Is there any other things that he
transcribed that we have?
>> No, as a translator, and that's the
thing you got to understand is like
Joseph Smith to me and and to anyone who
understands him isn't a translator.
[music]
>> Got it.
>> That's how people kind of interpret it,
and that's how Mormons have interpreted
it, but he's a channeler. He channels a
spirit, and he writes it down.
>> Got it. Got it.
>> His point is he's hearing from a a
spirit.
>> Got it.
>> I agree with that 1,000%.
>> say the church says translating cuz
channeling sounds creepy.
>> Well, it sounds like witch
>> So, you're going against the Mormon
church right now.
>> All right, Tom, neither of us are
trained apologetics people, but we're
going to talk about
the differences between Christians,
Protestants, and Mormons, and whether or
not Mormons are actually Christians. So,
how do we even get to this point? Like,
why why is there even a need for
Mormonism with Christians being around
for over 2,000 years?
>> Yeah, good question. You know, uh
Mormonism to you
is what Christianity should be.
Okay?
Um it was the spring of 1820, right? You
got this young boy named Joseph Smith.
His dad's going to one Protestant
religion. Um his mom's going to the
other, and they they're arguing. He's
They're taking Joseph to multiple of
these churches.
And the pastors, I don't know if you
know like you've ever looked at this,
it's like a mini revival enlightenment
in the beginning of the 1800s. Super
passionate in like Palmyra, New York.
And everyone's like they'd have like
campfires, and they're all like, "This
is why the Lutherans are the the one
true gospel, right?"
>> Mhm.
>> Um and they would argue, and they would
almost like door-to-door guys are
passionate about like don't even talk to
the living dudes, stay active. Like they
were like
that much going after each other and
like which of all these churches were
true.
And Joseph Smith thought to himself,
he's 14,
which of all these churches is true and
how would I know it?
>> Mhm.
>> So, he's reading the Bible and he reads
in James chapter 1 verse 5.
It says there, um if any man lacks
wisdom, let him ask of God
who give it to all men liberally and
abraideth not. So, liberally is like
you know, if you want your your butter
sprayed liberally on your toast, like
he'll give he'll give liberally and
abraideth, he won't hold back.
So, if you ask of God, he will answer
your your questions. So, he decides that
he's going to ask God directly.
He goes out into the
the sacred grove is now what we call it
in Pal- Palmyra, New York and he prays
and he asks God which of all the
churches are true and that's where he
has this first vision.
>> Mhm.
>> Right?
And God and Jesus Christ together appear
to him and they tell him not to join any
of the churches.
They quote from the Old Testament. Um
they say, you know, in in the latter
days men will draw near to me with their
lips, but their hearts will be far from
me.
So, don't join any of the churches. I
they're they're fragments, you know,
they're all arguing about same book.
I'm going to restore like the true vine
of Christ, the same church that Christ
established through you.
So, that that's the beginning of the
church.
And it kind of starts in I think
legitimate questions, like don't you
feel like those those questions are
legitimate?
Like why are there so many Protestant
religions? Why are we so fractured?
>> Mhm. But why create another one?
>> Well, because of this fracture.
>> But that's how every fracture started,
right? I mean,
the Protestant Reformation started
because they didn't like what the
Catholic Church was doing and and even
with the Catholic Church, there was
already the Orthodox Church and and all
these things and they're like, we just
don't think it's done the right way. And
then it's like, well,
we don't think it's done the right way,
you know, 300 years later.
>> But what if it's one body, one faith,
one baptism, we're all in the one
church, we're all alive in Christ, like
shouldn't we all be in the same church?
Shouldn't we be united, especially with
an infallible Bible? Like isn't God a
perfect communicator?
>> love for everyone to be united, for
sure.
>> Yeah.
Why why aren't the Protestant I mean,
what is there like a thousand
denominations or 10,000?
>> Mhm.
>> Not really, but
>> I mean, if you if you counted every
non-denominational
>> has its own
>> Yeah.
>> denomination.
>> Non-denominations basically its own
>> denomination in itself.
>> Yeah. Each individual one.
>> So, like is there any problem with that?
Like, do you believe that God has done
his work or could could, you know, God
speak to someone?
>> Um I think God speaks to people every
day, for sure.
>> Right. And could he speak to someone and
say
"Hey, I want to unify the churches and I
want to speak again"?
Yeah. With clarity?
>> Yeah, I think he could.
>> Okay. So, if if he could
and if we would be blessed if he would
then we just have to pursue his story
and see if it's true.
Yeah. As like dutiful Christians
assuming that you know, I have the same
intent, which is I want to follow the
the God of the Bible.
>> Yep.
>> I read the Bible. Whoever that is, I
want to follow him, right? I don't like
that I can go talk to 10, 20 different
pastors and we all can have arguments
about what it means to follow him. I'd
like to have clarity. So, if someone
says, "Well God spoke to me directly and
he has given me clarity
and he's given me evidence of this." I
would say, "What is your evidence?"
Right?
>> Mhm.
>> So, he brings forth. He says, "Well
I prepared a book, you know, golden
plates 2,000 years ago. Um before 600
years before Christ
I think it was the reign of
Nebuchadnezzar. There was a prophet
named Lehi. I'm sure you know him. The
Old Testament, there were many prophets
that were not accepted.
>> Um
I mean, I'm not sure of which ones
weren't accepted, but okay.
>> Oh, it's like stoning the prophets is
like a common theme in the Old
Testament. Like, Jesus says to the
Pharisees "Your fathers are the ones who
stoned the prophets. This is why you're
like whitewashed tombs, right? White on
the outside and
>> Yeah, I know they killed prophets. So, I
don't know when you say not accepted
whether or not they were false prophets
or just killed.
>> Well, when Jesus is referring to it to
the Pharisees, he's inferring that they
were true prophets that they rejected.
>> killed. Okay.
>> Got it.
>> good prophets that were rejected in
Israel.
>> Yeah.
>> So, one of those prophets' names was
Lehi. He preached what God tells him to
preach, which is you guys are going to
repent or else you're going to be
carried away into captivity and you're
going to be taken over.
>> Mhm.
>> They didn't listen.
So, God says, "You know what?
This is really interesting, actually,
cuz I think
I kind of feel this way about America
today. I'll get into it later.
But, like when society has gone past a
point the God does two things. One, he's
like, "You need to reform society."
Or he says, "You need to get out and
like I have a promised land for you."
Right? This is the story of No, really
the promise that was made to Abraham
>> Mhm.
>> and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph and
Moses, probably the biggest one, right?
I have a land up here that's the new
promised land. It's a land flowing with
milk and honey.
And literally generations of people are
waiting for this land that's promised
for them. And they finally get there
and there's like a bunch of people
living there.
>> Yep.
>> And Joshua like goes around with his
trumpets and the walls fall down and
they take it over and they take over
Israel. So, it's it's a common story
that God either has you reform the place
you're in
like ask the people to repent
or if you're a prophet, right? Or he has
you like leave and start another
like civilization, pretty much. I'm
trying to think of another example
beyond Moses. I think Abraham's a good
example, right? Like God says, "And your
children shall become as the sands of
the seashore in the land of Canaan."
>> Mhm.
>> And they get brought into Egypt and they
have So, the God always has this promise
to his people of the promised land.
>> Okay.
>> Does he make that promise to to like
Christians?
>> To the promised land? I mean
the main promise at this point is
eternity in heaven.
>> Okay.
>> So, it's not like the same like the Jews
and the Muslims kind of have this like
land, right? Like there's promised land
to them and they fight over it.
>> Well, I think uh and if you go to
Revelation, you know, Jerusalem's coming
back and all that stuff. Like
>> Okay.
>> to go down, yeah.
>> So, it'll be like reestablished and land
will become a part of it again.
Um
I would say with Jerusalem, yeah.
And where's New Jerusalem going to be?
>> I would guess where it's always been.
>> Israel?
Okay.
Anyways, so Lehi he's a Jew.
Got The Jews aren't repenting. God tells
him to leave. He teaches his son Nephi
to build a boat. They build a boat and
they come to their promised land, which
is the ancient Americas.
>> Mhm.
>> So, 600 years before Christ Nephi and
Lehi, they land in the Americas.
>> Because
and God's like, "Yeah, here's your
promised land. No one's really settled
here very much, so
you know, it's like
build your civilization and worship
Jesus Christ." And talks all about Jesus
Christ. And they they keep their history
for about a thousand years.
And they write their history on plates,
which is nice because if you write them
on papyrus or paper, it rots away.
>> Mhm.
>> But if you wrote it on plates,
specifically gold plates, that'd be the
only thing that wouldn't rust.
>> Yeah?
>> Right? Like if God wanted to preserve a
story of what his prophet said 2,500
years ago
even if you wrote it on rock, it'd like
fade away.
But it you if you engraved it on gold,
it could
stay the same for 2,000 years, even if
it got wet.
Okay?
So
>> [snorts]
>> Moses wrote on a stone tablet, but
>> Did he have the intention of preserving
it forever?
>> I would think so. It's pretty important
he was receiving the 10 Commandments
from God. It was pretty important.
>> Yeah. Yeah, maybe it was like the best
they could do at the point like this
will last at least 500 years. But if you
really could think about it, like hey,
if I have to make sure this message
>> broke it.
Yeah. He broke it the first time and he
had to redo it.
>> Yeah. Do you believe that he wrote the
same stuff down when he redid it?
>> Um I do, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> I know Joseph Smith had a
totally different thing later, but yeah.
>> What do you Do you
Do you want to elaborate on that?
>> Um I mean, when he lost the tablets the
for or whoever the guy was that was
supposed to be holding them, he gave a
different translation than the one
before.
>> Close. Yeah, it's Martin Harris.
>> Yep.
>> Um his wife doesn't believe Joseph. So,
she like hides like 200 pages. And she's
like, "Hey, if you have the the plates,
just re-translate it."
>> Yeah.
>> Right?
>> for word. You got the tablet.
>> Yeah. And he doesn't re-translate it and
get it wrong. He just refuses to
re-translate it.
>> Yeah.
>> So.
>> Well, he just does it different.
>> No, he he doesn't He's like, "I'm not
like that first 200 pages, I'm that's
all that's now sealed. I'm never going
to touch it. I'm just going to go on
from there."
>> I thought God told him that he was going
to like punish him
and not give him though like take those
tablets away from him or something like
that.
>> If he gave it to Martin Harris. So,
Martin Harris kept saying, "Give me the
transcript." And Joseph like, "Okay,
I'll ask God if he's cool with that."
And Joseph like, "Yeah, I asked God and
he's like, 'I shouldn't give these to
you.'"
And then Martin Harris is like, "Well,
you really should cuz I'm funding this
whole operation. So, I need you to give
it to me so I can take it to my wife cuz
she's sus. You know, I've given you like
all this money and stuff."
He's like, "Okay, like I already asked
God and he said, 'Don't.' But I will go
pray about it again."
He goes and prays about it again and
God's like, "No, like don't That's what
I'm doing right now. You're not going to
give it to Martin Harris." And the third
time he asks and he says, God's
basically like, "Okay, whatever. Like do
whatever you want."
So, basically he's saying like because
he like implored the Lord three times
when he shouldn't have, that's what he
had to repent of. He shouldn't have kept
asking God when he said, "Don't give it
to Martin Harris. His wife is like not a
believer. She's acting out of fear, not
faith. And she's going to do weird
stuff." Right? He should have said like,
"Look, I'm sorry, like I'm not doing
it." But he kept asking God even though
I he had said no. And that's what he had
to repent of.
>> So, wait, can you explain it again? So,
Joseph Smith had golden plates.
He translated the Book of Mormon.
Someone took 200 pages from the Book of
Mormon
and said, "If you're a true prophet,
translate it again and then I'll check
if it's the same."
Right? Am I good so far?
>> He didn't finish it. Like he was like a
third of the way through.
>> He was a third of all through.
>> And Martin Harris is like funding it,
you know, he's like paying for his
housing while he sits there and
translates
>> wife's point was, "Hey, if you're really
reading from these tablets, you should
be able to just translate it again, word
for word."
>> Right. And then, so
she wants him to retranslate it.
He asked God.
>> He asked God. God said no. Wait, what
what Why what did God say no to?
>> No, not retranslate it. He asked God
before that whether or not he should
give Martin Harris the papers.
>> Yeah, the transcript.
>> But he ended up doing it after the third
time.
>> why didn't Joseph Smith just
retranslate,
like rewrite the first 200 pages?
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>> So, one thing I understand is that like
these 200 pages cost
more money than Joseph Smith had, cuz he
he's broke. And Martin Harris is like
paying for his housing, his food. He's
not working. He's not on the farm.
Right? So, he sacrificed 30 days to
translate these papers or whatever. It
was his most valuable possession.
And then this lady loses them.
>> Okay.
>> She she doesn't say, "Hey, I'm hiding
them. Retranslate them."
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz it's like he's he's translating 12
hours a day
>> Yeah.
>> for 30 days.
So, it's like
400 man hours of work.
>> Yeah.
>> And he he already told It's like his
most valuable transcript. He already
told God like God already told him not
to give it to him. And he's like, "I
hope you don't lose them." Cuz that's
the whole thing is like I don't want to
lose the work that we've done.
>> Okay.
>> She doesn't say, "Hey, I I hid it and
I'll go do all that work again."
>> Oh, she didn't say that.
>> No, she just Martin Harris just comes
back and says, "We lost it.
>> Yeah.
>> They're gone."
>> Okay, so they lost the first
>> next?
So, Joseph is like
first of all, he like freaks out and
he's like God is condemning me like I
did what God asked me not to do. I gave
him
>> he at this time, too? Like 15?
>> No. So, when he had the first vision, he
was 14. When he gets the plates, it's
like 4 years later. He's 18.
>> 18.
>> So, he's he's probably 19 or 20
>> Okay.
>> right now. But, he he ends up just
writing
>> a similar story to the first 200 pages,
but different words, right?
>> No.
>> None of the same stories.
>> Correct.
>> So, they did find the first 200?
>> No.
>> How would they check?
>> No, he's saying they didn't it just had
nothing to do with the first 200 pages.
>> So, Joseph Smith came back and said,
"Hey, I'm writing a different 200
pages."
>> So, the the abridged plates of Mormon,
they have uh
basically the abridged the unabridged
version and then they have the abridged
version.
>> What does that mean?
>> Abridged is like it's a thousand years
of history, then a historian will go
through and like condense it to the good
parts.
>> Okay.
>> So, Mormon is a prophet like a thousand
years after Nephi and he's he takes a
thousand years of these plates and he
condenses it down to just the abridged
version.
>> Okay.
>> The best parts.
>> Got it.
>> The the good teachings of God and like
maybe the critical wars, but all the
other thousands of years are just people
writing their journal. He didn't include
that.
>> Okay.
>> So, you Well, if you look into it, what
he says is Joseph Smith was he was just
translating it from the top, the
unabridged version.
Right? And then um that version we never
got to see. He's like, "I guess we're
just not doing the unabridged. God's mad
at me. This is just like the
consequences of me doing what he asked
me not to do and and doing it anyways."
He actually in Joseph Smith So, the Book
of Mormon's an abridged version.
>> The whole thing now at this point.
>> Yeah, what we have today.
>> It's not the original unabridged.
>> Yeah, but they only got through like a
third of the unabridged. So, there isn't
like a full unabridged somewhere sitting
there, you know what I'm saying?
>> But, they don't have any of the
unabridged.
>> Correct.
>> Yeah.
>> Where did it go?
>> She stole it, and then he never finished
after she stole it.
>> talking about where did the gold tablets
that had that part go?
>> Good question. So, Angel Moroni after he
translates the plates, he takes the
plates back to heaven.
>> Okay, that's
>> And then he had the seer
>> Convenient, yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> He had the seer stone in the hat, too.
>> Yeah.
>> And he didn't even need the plates from
what I remember. He could actually just
trans
I think Joseph said
at some points he wasn't even using the
plates. He was just looking in the hat
with the stone, and
>> he had the plates, and
>> he didn't even need the plates.
>> And then he didn't need the plates.
>> Yeah.
>> So, the way we're kind of taught, you
know, in in Sunday school, is he's like
he's got the Urim and Thummim, which are
these like magic glasses crystals, and
>> [laughter]
>> he's like he's like translating the Book
of Mormon like looking at it like, "Oh,
it says this. It says this."
>> But, in reality
>> he had his head down in a hat.
>> Yeah.
>> It was like dark, and he could like
faintly see his seer stone.
And he would like focus his meditation
brain, and God would like he would
literally channel. It's it's a channeled
book.
>> Got it.
>> it is. Do you guys believe in that
stuff?
>> So, he kind of was making it up.
>> I will I will share what I believe
happened, but I want to get like the
Mormon perspective of history, and then
I'll give how I perceive it.
>> And when I say he made it up, he was
getting revelation from God. He wasn't
actually looking at a
document and then translating it to
English.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay, got it.
>> That's that's more accurate.
>> Well, the but
>> But, there was plates.
>> plates, but then and then eventually he
just does it without the plates.
>> The angel took it.
>> Essentially.
>> You are tracking the 15 witnesses,
though.
>> I know about the 15 witnesses, too.
>> Yeah.
>> And none of them ever denied their
testimony.
>> Some of them did.
>> Well, the doctor
um
And we'll get into that.
>> None of them ever denied their
testimony.
>> Some of them did.
>> No.
>> Well, the one doctor did.
>> Let's look it up. We got AI.
None of them ever denied their
testimony.
>> Okay.
>> Most of them left the church.
>> Yeah.
>> But, even to their deathbed, none of
them denied the testimony.
>> And some of them ended up following like
another guy that had tablets.
>> There was another guy with tablets?
>> Yeah. Another guy had tablets and like
started his own church and then some of
them went and followed that guy, but
then they ended up proving that those
tablets were like fake or something like
that.
>> You know what I'm talking about?
>> It's like Kitner or something.
>> Yeah. So they had So one other guy's
like, "I have tablets."
I don't want to mess up this story. And
they all followed him.
>> Okay. So nonetheless, regardless of what
anyone thinks about the tablets, right?
>> Yeah.
>> He He He creates the Book of Mormon. Uh
and then obviously you guys have other
uh like covenants and things that would
be doctrine, right?
>> Mhm.
>> So you have You have the Book of Mormon,
which is the translated story
>> Wait, did we finish the story?
>> behind Nephi, yeah.
>> That's what I'm getting back to, yeah.
So he makes the Book of Mormon and then
he ends up writing these other ones,
too.
>> really have the Book of Mormon, which is
it's long. It's like 380 pages or
something. 380.
>> Imagine if we had the unabridged.
>> Yeah.
>> It'd be like
>> And there's another sealed portion that
is prophesied to come forth in the
latter days.
>> There we go.
>> So any day the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints might be like, "Hey
guys,
>> Wait, in the latter days? We're in the
It is the latter days already.
>> The more latter days.
>> Okay.
>> The extreme latter days.
>> [laughter]
>> The extra
>> Latter Day 2.0.
>> I thought we were already in the latter
days.
>> Extremely latter days.
>> Okay.
>> I mean really extremely latter days.
>> You know, 200 years after Joseph Smith
it's not that long.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Same generation.
>> So but Okay, what are the other docu- or
um books you guys believe?
>> So you have the Book of Mormon.
>> Yeah.
>> Mormon.
>> And then okay, so now we have a real
prophet that gave us the Book of Mormon
cuz you have to be a prophet to
translate it. And no wicked man could
write such a book, therefore
he's a good man.
So then what
>> So they said about That's what they said
about Muhammad, but keep going.
>> Muhammad's book is not like that great
of a book.
>> I mean
>> I would say Keep Keep going.
>> Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Why can no
man write the Book of Mormon? Have you
read it?
>> No.
>> I've read it.
>> The whole thing?
>> Yeah. No wicked man could write such a
book.
>> Why? Explain to us why no man There's
billions of books. Explain to us why no
man could have written this book.
>> Well, once you like
are familiar with the spirit of God
and the Holy Ghost
and you can see and I'm probably I bet
that you both have probably been taken
by the Holy Spirit or seen a pastor that
has been
>> Okay.
>> and seen people speak by the spirit.
It's not like
>> Like speaking in tongues?
>> Can you Hold on. Hold on. Let's get
>> Do you Hold on. Do Mormons believe in
speaking in tongues?
>> They do.
>> I Okay. Okay. Hold on. Hold on.
>> But not like not like probably other
speaking in tongue people. Not
>> Yeah, you think like another language.
>> Yeah. You You think like speaking
Spanish and other stuff.
>> No, you know what's funny? That's what
Mormons think.
>> Okay.
>> But Brigham Young, when he met Joseph
Smith
Joseph Smith was like, "Hey Brigham,
will you say the closing prayer?" Then
Brigham Young spoke
another language
not a known language.
>> So, like what Charismatics and
Pentecostals believe.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> Okay. That's That's what Joseph Smith
and Brigham Young believed.
>> Yeah.
>> But that doesn't exist in the church
today.
>> Yeah.
>> We believe that. Kind of Kind of fun.
>> Yeah. They called it the Adamic
language.
>> Nice.
>> Well, I'm on the same page with Joseph.
>> There we go. Okay. Okay. Hold on. How
could no other man write this book?
>> You've done it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you know what it means Yeah. to have
the spirit take your mouth
>> Well, that's why I was asking what you
were referring to.
>> Yeah.
That's what I'm referring to. I think
that in my opinion
you know, I I know that you have a
different opinion.
>> Yeah.
>> That once you're familiar with that
spirit, you know when someone's speaking
by that spirit.
>> There's a lot of debate.
But
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, anyways. So,
why could no other man write this book?
>> For that reason. Like no no wicked
feeling can
>> So, it's just your subjective like you
look at that book and you're like, "No
one else could have written this book."
>> Yeah, like when you it's 330 pages
>> Uh-huh.
>> and like you dig into the Bible and like
all the cross references and all the
magnificent miracles of God's Bible.
>> Mhm.
>> Right? How incredibly impossible it
would be
for it to be false or for it not to be
true.
>> Mhm.
>> Right? And you see those like graphs of
like all the cross references in the
Bible.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, like you can dig into that with the
Book of Mormon. Like a really simple
example would be chiasmic writing.
Chiasmic writing is a Hebraic like way
of writing where you like say the thing
at the beginning and you say it at the
end and you say it in the middle and
it's like it ends up looking like a
reverse tree of itself. That's something
we've discovered like in the last 70
years that Joseph Smith didn't know and
it's all throughout the Book of Mormon.
Chiasmic writing.
>> [cough]
>> And you can go into far greater detail.
>> exists. So, he's not the first person to
do it.
>> Well, he's the first modern person to do
it.
>> To have chiasmic writing?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Chiasmic writing
>> chiasmic writing?
>> No, the Hebrews did.
>> Okay, so then that means that has that
existed before.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I'm trying to figure out what
>> So, this is a way of writing that the
Hebrews wrote with.
>> Yeah.
>> But, modern scholars didn't discover it
until 50 years ago. They didn't They
didn't see the pattern.
>> Okay.
>> But, now you can see the pattern and no
one else recognized that and yet the
Book of Mormon has that pattern.
>> Okay.
>> So, this is one little thing. But, the
doctrines quite compelling. Like I could
read you some scriptures from the Book
of Mormon. I could read you I could read
you a chapter or two.
>> I can guarantee you the scripture will
>> read us Well, I guarantee you the
scripture will end with
>> What is it What is the phrase?
>> to pass And it came to pass.
>> Read us the scripture that you feel like
no other man could
>> times does it say "And it came to pass"?
>> A lot.
>> A million.
>> At least a at least multiple
jillions.
>> [laughter]
>> I'll read you
>> That was the first thing I noticed when
I read it. I was like, "Dang, this seems
to be repeating and it came to pass a
lot."
And then I was like, "I wonder how many
times it says this." And
>> Well, there's some there's some like
reflection of that, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay, so I'm going to read to you
um
there's this guy named Abinadi
and so all throughout this thousand
years people Jews do this. They tend to
do this. They like get righteous and
then they get unrighteous.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. They like are like "Oh God,
forgive us." They become humble. Then
they are blessed for their humility.
They get prideful.
>> Yeah, they do stupid crap all over
again.
>> Yeah. So, there's this there's this They
got blessed. Now, there's a guy named
Noah. He's King Noah and he's got like,
you know, all his
people and all that.
>> It's a different Noah.
You see they just found Noah's Ark?
Did you guys see that on Instagram?
>> Like Turkey or something? Yeah.
>> Yeah, they're doing the underground
digging right now.
>> Yeah.
>> They've already done the 3D scans. And
they can see like it's a boat.
>> Mhm.
>> Like they used to think it was, well,
Christians always thought that this was
the spot cuz the Bible says it's there
and it looks like and it's literally the
exact dimensions. They're like, "Oh,
it's just a landmass. It's just
formulated that way." And now they did
the 3D and like they can see
there's actual tunnels and stuff in it.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyways,
>> So amazing.
>> Yeah.
Um
>> Noah the king.
>> So what So Abinadi, he goes to Noah
and he's like, "You guys need to repent.
Like you're you're perverting the ways
of the Lord. You're you have a king
spot, so you should be like helping
people be righteous, but you're not, you
know?" And they're like, "Uh we're going
to kill you."
And before he dies, he's like, "No, I'm
going to deliver my message and you're
not going to touch me." And they let him
finish his message cuz they're like
scared.
Anyways, one of the reasons I like I'm
I'll share this one is that
for me when I read this verse, it's
totally different from how
Mormon culture teaches the Trinity.
>> Okay.
>> Right? And this is one of the things
we'll probably get into.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> But it's like
>> [snorts]
>> Mormon culture overly simplifies the
Trinity.
>> Okay.
>> And I think that Protestant and Cath-
and Catholic Churcher church it What do
they say? It's it's unknowable, right?
>> It's hard to understand. We're jumping
all over the place. Where are we going?
>> yeah, is unknowable.
>> I understand. I thought we were about to
read this verse.
>> I'm just I'm giving context for what the
verse is saying.
>> Okay, okay, okay. Cuz before this we
said we never
can finish a conversation cuz it it gets
all over the place. I'm just saying
getting all over the place.
>> I respect that.
>> Yeah, and not just you cuz he just
brought up Noah's Ark and [laughter]
you're talking about the Trinity, so
like I'm trying
>> I'm making sure we know that this is a
different Noah.
>> Okay, okay, okay.
I'm like, "Noah wasn't a king."
>> I'm just I'm just going to read these
five verses.
>> Yep.
>> My point is to say that a 19-year-old
kid doesn't make this stuff up. That's
kind of my point.
>> Yeah, that no other man could have
written written this is what you said.
>> Yeah, I mean if maybe five verses
I could make up like this if I tried for
like a day, but I could not riff this
out of a hat
for 10 hours a day
>> Not just you. You said no other man. No
other man.
>> Yes.
>> Got it.
>> I don't think anyone could riff this
stuff of this content at this high of a
level 10 hours a day.
>> He did the whole thing in like 60 days.
Okay.
>> Dude didn't go to high school.
>> That's incredible. I will tell you how
he did it in a minute. Go ahead.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh now Abinadi said unto them, "I would
that you should understand that God
himself shall come down among the
children of men and shall redeem his
people.
And because he dwelleth in flesh, he
shall be called the Son of God. And
having subjected the flesh to the will
of the Father, being the Father and the
Son.
The Father because he was conceived by
the power of God, and the Son because of
the flesh, thus becoming the Father and
the Son. And they are one God, yea, the
very Eternal Father of heaven and of
earth. And thus the flesh becometh
subject to the spirit or the Son to the
Father becoming one God suffereth
temptation and yieldeth not to
temptation, but suffereth himself to be
mocked and scourged and cast out and
disowned by his people.
And after all this, after working many
mighty miracles among the children of
men, he shall be led, yea, even as
Isaiah said, "As a sheep before the
shearer is dumb, so he opened not his
mouth." Yea, even so he shall be led,
crucified and slain, the flesh becoming
subject even unto death, the will of the
Son being swallowed up in the will of
the Father, and thus God bringeth the
breaketh the bands of death, having
gained the victory over death, giving
the Son power to make the intercession
for the children of men, having ascended
into heaven, having the bowels of mercy
being filled with compassion towards the
children of men, standing betwixt them
in justice, having broken the bands of
death, taken upon himself their iniquity
and their transgression, having redeemed
them and justified the demands of just
justice.
>> So no other man could have written that.
>> So those are the words of the spirit in
my in my opinion. The this is the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
>> yeah.
>> This is the gospel.
>> Yeah.
>> And the
the way he's saying it here
>> Yeah. not the way that members of the
church understand it.
>> What do you mean?
>> Like I'm saying the church don't believe
in the trinity. Right, like if you if
you read this to Mormons they're like I
don't really understand cuz he said he's
the father and the son and they're one
god.
>> Is that
>> No, no, no, no, no. That's not modalism.
It's it's like a trinitarian worldview
that verse is from Abinadi.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyways, I get what you're saying like
no one could yes, that's read the book
of Mormon it goes on like that
for like months. Like it takes you a
month to read it and it just it's
literally at that level the whole time.
And that's how you know no wicked man
could say this stuff. You can't just
make this stuff up for 300 pages.
>> How could you not if these characters
like Jesus and the Bible and all this
stuff has already existed for like
what 1800 years when he wrote this?
>> Mhm.
>> And you're saying no other man could
relate it back to was it Isaiah? Tell
the story of tell the story of Jesus
coming down and
getting killed.
>> verses if you did dive into them they're
immaculate, they're perfect, they're
right in line with the gospel, they
reference everything exactly. No, I I
could probably do that what I just did
for five verses
>> Or another human, yeah.
>> if I studied it for like a day and I
just made sure all my references checked
and I could be like okay, I'm going to
say that. I couldn't like he literally
just did exactly what I did for 10 hours
a day.
>> Yeah.
>> For 60 days straight.
>> Did he know about the Bible? Did he read
the Bible? So you so he had reference to
the Bible.
>> Right, but he wasn't looking at the
Bible.
>> I'm not saying he was looking at the
Bible, but he knew the Bible already.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Yeah, so he's referencing ideas that are
in the Bible
that currently exists.
>> Right.
>> So what about that verse is like
no other man can do?
>> I'm not I'm not saying it's this verse
exactly.
>> Yeah, you're saying the whole book.
>> The whole book. I'm giving you a I'm
giving you a sample. I'm giving you a
sample.
>> Yeah, yeah, I get it.
>> You couldn't do that for 60 days
straight 10 hours a day. You couldn't do
it. I don't care how much you read the
Bible. You read the Bible go and forth
you're going to make mistakes, you're
going to have like people you
cross-reference. You're going to have
dates and times you mess up. You just
couldn't do it for 10 hours a day. Now,
I couldn't do it I I think if I studied
for like 10 hours, I could probably riff
like that for 30 minutes.
>> Yeah.
>> He did it for 60 days.
>> How do you guys and how do you guys know
it was only 60 days?
Cuz he told you that or how do you how
do you know that?
>> It's a good question. I don't really
know the answer to the question. Should
we just look it up?
>> It's probably just the historical
church teaching.
>> Exactly. Yeah, but so how do they know
that?
>> Let's look it up.
>> So, how long did it take Joseph Smith to
translate the Book of Mormon and how do
we know that or is that just like Mormon
church history and there's no other
references for it?
Probably I'm going to guess you probably
have Martin Harris's journal and Martin
Harris's wife and Sidney Rigdon and a
few of those historical sources are
anti-Mormon and anti-Joseph. So, like
the whole story there together, you
can't it's probably hard to deny because
you have people that are witnessing all
this.
>> Yeah, that um looked at the timeline
from when he started to when he printed
and they can attest to that.
>> I don't honestly I I don't think that
the 60-day thing is a big deal.
>> Well, I'm just curious cuz that's the
claim. Like no other man could come up
with this thing in 60 days.
>> Yeah, that's definitely true.
>> Yeah.
>> Like no other man could do it for sure.
If you read it, you'll see what I'm
>> No other man. There's been billions and
billions There's What other human being
that could
>> Yeah, the only the only way you could do
it is if you channeled a spirit
>> The only way you could do it
>> with other with other humans helping
him.
>> way you could do it is if you channeled
a spirit and you could like channel the
spirit well enough and it tell told you
exactly what to say.
>> I don't know. That doesn't That doesn't
sound like a big enough miracle.
>> I'm glad you brought this up cuz I
didn't bring it up. So, let me So, your
argument might be that he channeled
another spirit.
>> No, my argument might my argument would
be you can't say it wasn't a miracle.
>> It wasn't impossible.
>> So, let me
>> All right. I'm saying I know more about
it than you. If you study it, you'll
find it's impossible.
>> Well, so here's my thing and I This is
kind of what happened on the
>> [laughter]
>> This is what happened on the Voice of
Reason for like 30 minutes and then I
was
just like
all right, I've heard enough."
>> Yeah, cuz we're we're not moving fast
enough.
>> Okay, okay, okay. Here we go.
And I say this
>> to just put this in the beginning of the
show.
>> Yeah, so
>> [laughter]
>> I say this with all respect to to all my
Mormon friends and everything, cuz I
grew up in a a Mormon high school. At
least half my high school was Mormon. Um
got tons of Mormon friends and so
>> to preface this.
>> Yeah, I have Mormon friends.
>> I got black friends. I got black
friends. [laughter]
>> They could be pastors. They didn't have
to wait till 1978. So with
>> [laughter]
>> Hey.
>> History's history.
>> So
>> Oh, bro.
>> You know, for me anyways, okay? I'm
going to preface this and say,
uh just like I said with the Catholics
on uh you know, the Voice of Reason
podcast, like I believe Catholics are
tr- are Christians.
With this, I do not believe that Mormon
doctrine teaches
what we would call biblical
Christianity. And for lots of reasons,
which we'll discuss here. Maybe this is
the start of the podcast. With uh the
Trinity, with Jesus being created, being
Lucifer's brother, um how Joseph Smith
uh got all of his revelation. There's so
many things.
>> God.
God was once a man.
>> God was once a man, exaltation, planets.
We can talk about all these different
concepts that um I just think take you
so far from biblical Christianity that
it's no longer the same thing. But, if
we're going to talk about the Book of
Mormon,
this is my belief on it so far. Uh and
I've read it. So, I've done everything a
Mormon would say. I've read it, like you
said.
>> to read it. Yeah.
>> I've done it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, for me anyways,
when I read Galatians, and I know you
know this verse, it's it's just about,
"Hey, angels, don't don't believe what
angels tell you, right?" We know that uh
the demons were angels at one point.
They're fallen angels. Satan was the
most beautiful angel of all. And, you
know, [snorts]
he he fell. And now he has dominion over
this earth, tricking people and
deceiving and all these things. Um we
know that Joseph Smith was into folk
magic and witchcraft and all of those
things. Now, whether you want to call it
witchcraft or not,
that's what we would call it, right? And
we know that witchcraft is a sin. We
know we shouldn't be doing that.
I believe 1,000% that Joseph Smith says
he saw an angel. I 1,000% believe he saw
Moroni. He saw angels. He did those
things. I 100% believe that that angel
was a demon.
I 100% believe that that demon, like you
just mentioned, channeled information to
him to write this book that no one else
could have written.
I I do think that
it's very similar to Muhammad and these
other guys who have written books like
they wrote crazy books. Like dude,
Muhammad wasn't anyone special. Joseph
Smith wasn't anyone special.
>> years.
>> It doesn't matter though. I mean when
you're when you're dealing with the
supernatural and the demonic
>> Quran.
>> Nothing is impossible with the demonic
or with the Holy Spirit. Once we get
into these supernatural things, we're no
longer relying on flesh and man.
So,
my opinion, cuz the Bible tells us that
angels will come to deceive and give
other false gospels and other things.
We've seen it happen with Islam.
We've seen it happen with Joseph Smith.
And we'll keep seeing it happen, you
know, even right after
the disciples came and everything else.
You already had gnostic teachings about
Jesus.
And and some teachings that are not very
dissimilar from Mormons with, you know,
Jesus was actually created. Jesus had a
wife. Jesus, you know, had this. And
it's like,
"No, we were never teaching those things
from the beginning." So,
I guess my first point is
I do believe Joseph wrote it.
And I believe it was completely possible
through the supernatural. Except I
believe it wasn't the Holy Spirit. I
believe it was demonic.
So, like that's my first thing that I
believe uh with all this. And it's like
I don't know. There's not like a It's
not like a debate. It's just like you
believe that they're from different
sources.
And I But I just believe yeah, he
couldn't have written it. I just don't
think
>> He couldn't have.
>> Not on his own.
>> That's a more valid
That's a more valid conclusion.
>> There are verses that are
>> he supernaturally wrote it.
>> No, hold on. Hold on. There are clear
copies like uh verses and stories in the
Bible in the Book of Mormon.
>> I know. They have verse for verse for
many chapters.
>> They had They had the scriptures.
>> Exactly. Yeah, they had the Bible.
>> says, "I love the words of Isaiah." And
then he quotes it
for like three chapters.
>> Uh-huh. No, but I'm just I'm Take Take
the theology out of it. 5%. Take the
theology out of it.
A man wrote a book
>> Yeah.
>> and he also had another book that had
copies
>> I get from your common sense of like
>> Yeah, he You haven't read it, though.
I'm telling you
>> Yeah, yeah, but that's a bad argument.
That's a bad argument. That's a fallacy.
That's a fallacy. You haven't read the
book, so that does That That proves that
the Book of Mormon is
>> Bro, like the fact that you haven't read
it is a valid point. It would help you
to talk about it if you read it.
>> Yeah, but that doesn't prove that
[laughter] the Book of Mormon is true.
>> I did not say that.
>> didn't say that.
>> Okay. Okay. I'm saying that like Ryan's
I'm telling you
>> That's such a bad argument that Mormons
always try to use as like oh, you didn't
read the book. That's their job, too.
>> that crazy to read it cuz in case it is
true, like you should probably read it.
>> I don't believe it's true, though.
>> You should You should read it just so
>> Well, since you debate all Well, you
don't debate, you moderate these guys of
all these different religions.
>> It's not as long as the Quran. It's not
as hard to read.
>> I haven't read the Quran yet. I am going
to read it.
>> If it If it were true, then you would
really appreciate the fact that God, you
know, has
like you don't think that the Jews
only lived in Jerusalem.
>> I think there's no historical evidence
that the Jews came here.
>> No, but like
>> kind of about, right? Is there Is there
any evidence that the Jews came to the
United States? Really, there's
historical evidence.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I have some podcasts I can send
you.
>> Okay. Bro, we're going to put up a fact
check on this.
>> Yeah, yeah. So, the fact check for those
people is it's called uh
>> podcast.
>> But there I mean, that's That's
literally a logical fallacy, right?
It's You got to look at their argument,
not who they are.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, their their podcast is called the
Stick of Joseph and they have
significant evidence of Hebrews living
in the Americas.
>> All right. So,
>> we The point of the Book of Mormon is,
you know,
we both believe it's inspired
supernaturally, at least him and I do,
just from different sources.
>> So, the question is, and you're right. I
just think Brian, you're smart. I think
that if you did this for a long time,
and you actually read it, you'd come to
that conclusion. I think that's the only
reasonable conclusion.
Is you basically have to think that he
talked to a spirit, and it was either a
good spirit or it was a bad spirit.
>> Or another another conclusion is he who
was helping him translate? How many
other people helped him translate it?
>> I think just one. Like they
>> They were script-
>> He literally wrote what he said.
>> They wrote So, someone helped him then,
right? Cuz he didn't physically write
it, right?
>> He couldn't even write.
>> Okay, so then someone helped him, right?
If I talk to Ryan, and he writes it,
does that mean Ryan helped write it or
no?
>> It depends. Like if if you're just a
scribe, and you only write what I tell
you to,
you're just a scribe.
>> Okay, my point I'll just get to my
point.
>> You believe anyone could have written
it.
>> I believe that Joseph Smith and other
men
with the Bible
wrote the Book of Mormon in supposedly
60 days, but we have to like see
evidence that how are they coming to
that conclusion that it only took 60
days?
>> Mhm.
Sorry, my AI didn't load right there.
>> To me, that's
>> All right, forget all that. That's
enough Whatever, whatever. Forget all
that stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Let Let's just talk about what the the
contents of the Book of Mormon, the
Covenants, and, you know, the other
>> The Book of Abraham.
>> Well, the other, you know, uh
>> How many books did he write? He wrote
the Book of Mormon,
>> Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of
Great Price.
>> and the Where's the Book of Abraham at?
>> It's in the Pearl of Great Price.
>> Okay, okay, okay.
>> My personal favorite, by the way.
>> Is part of Do you believe that was
written by Abraham?
>> The the scr- the papyrus? Yeah.
>> No.
>> But didn't Joseph Smith say that
Abraham wrote that?
>> No, he said he found
>> in the book Isn't that in the Book of
Abraham?
>> That he he said he found a papyrus
written by told the story of Maybe maybe
it was it by.
>> It Yeah.
>> But I think then they find that that was
false, that papyrus wasn't real.
>> No. No, the papyrus was real.
Okay, so this is what happened. So, he
translated some Egyptian papyri.
>> Yep. Yep.
>> Right?
>> this.
>> And at the time in America, we couldn't
verify it. Verify it. And then once
Egyptologists could read it, they found
that it did not
it did not tell the story of Abraham and
his son being sacrificed. And even in
the Book of Abraham, correct me, there
are images of the papyrus today, right?
>> Mhm.
>> And Egyptologists have looked at those
images and they say they do not say what
>> Joseph Smith
>> claimed it said.
And
I believe, and we could check, in the
Book of Abraham it says this is written
by Abraham.
But then the age of the papyrus doesn't
match because Abraham was 2000 BC and
that papyrus is like from 300 BC.
>> Right, but it it wasn't written by the
hand of Abraham.
>> I think that's what it says in the Book
of Abraham.
>> Well, I wish I had my
>> at some point it says
>> Let me ask you what is the controversy
with the Book of Abraham and Mormons?
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>> All right. I will read up what Claude
says the controversy is.
>> I don't know if there's a way.
>> And what I think, I've just watched a
few of you your
retaliations on this stuff.
I feel like for
in journalist integrity
I would like you, sometimes I feel like
you didn't even read the counterpoint.
Sometimes that's how I feel about some
of the things you've said.
Read this counterpoint?
Well, like like
whatever you're reading right now,
right?
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> You have to say, "And how would the
Mormon apologist respond to that?" Okay,
all right. So, here is uh the
controversy of the Egyptian papyri. Um
background, 1835, Smith uh bought
several mummies and papyrus scrolls.
>> can I can I preface this?
>> Yeah.
>> Check this out.
I think you're on Wi-Fi now.
>> What is that?
>> I can't see it.
>> of Abraham?
>> Uh what is it? I can't see it.
>> Is that the Book
>> the mic in the way.
>> That's the papyrus. [laughter]
>> Okay.
>> What does it say? Is that the
>> We're all in on the papyrus.
>> Bro, this is crazy.
>> Okay. [laughter]
So, he said he said one scroll contained
writings by the biblical patriarch
Abraham. In 1842, he published his
translation along with drawings he
called facsimiles.
>> Uh the Latter-Day
>> Facsimiles, that's right.
>> Uh facsimiles.
>> Uh the Latter-Day Saints later made it
scripture as part of the Pearl of Great
Price.
People thought it had been burned in
1871 in the Chicago fire. In 1966,
fragments turned up at the Metropolitan
Museum of Art. The main problems critics
raised, the text doesn't match.
Egyptologists, like you said, identified
a surviving fragment of the Book of
Breathings as part of the Book of the
Dead, and they are standard burial texts
for a priest named Hor.
Uh they date to roughly 2,000 years
after Abraham would have lived. Um the
facsim I can't even say the word.
>> Facsimiles.
>> are read differently. Smith said
facsimile one shows Abraham on an altar
about to be sacrificed. Egyptologists
see a common embalming or resurrection
scene featuring Osiris and the god
Anubis. Some damaged sections also
appear to have been filled in
incorrectly. The working paper Smith's
Egyptian alphabet and grammar documents
link to specific characters on the
papyri to the passages of the text.
Critics say this undercuts the idea that
the missing material was simply um on
some other part of the scrolls. The race
connection passages about Pharaoh's
lineage were long used to support the
church's ban on black members holding
the priesthood, which ended in 1978. How
the LDS church responds? Dan Claude
already has it.
>> Here we go.
>> Um, a 2014
church essay acknowledges that the
surviving fragments don't contain the
Book of Abraham.
>> Yeah.
>> It offers two explanations. One is that
the text came from portions of the
scrolls that are now lost. The other is
that the papyri served as a catalyst for
revelation rather than being literal
translation. Believers treat the book's
spiritual value as separate from how it
was produced. Critics see the episode as
a rare case where Smith's claim to
translate ancient records could be
checked directly and they failed that
test.
>> Can you ask Claude if Joseph Smith
claimed that
Abraham literally wrote that?
>> Did Joseph Smith claim that Abraham
literally wrote that?
>> Let's see what Claude says.
>> Yes, when Smith published in 1842, he
described it as the writings of Abraham
written by his own hand upon a papyrus.
That heading is still printed in the
current editions of LDS scripture. Smith
and his associates also showed the
scrolls to visitors as Abraham's actual
record. Once it was dated around the
time of Christ, apologists reinterpreted
the
the phrase. Some argue by his own hand
can simply mean Abraham was the original
author. So the papyri could be a much
later copy of his work. That way the
modern Bible still contains Paul's
letters. The church's 2014 essay leans
towards that reading. Critics answer
that that's retroactive reading and
that's Smith and his contemporaries
understood the scroll to be Abraham's
own handwriting.
>> So to me that's like
it's tough. It's really tough.
>> That's that's kind of what I want. Like
there's quite a few times where you say
stuff and I'm like, bro, like the
apologetics answer, like I don't even
want to bother to say it. Like just look
up the apologetics answer cuz what
you'll find, cuz I've done all this a
million times,
>> Yeah.
>> is there always is like, uh, okay. Like
it kind of can go either way. Like if
you wanted to say that you could.
>> Do you feel [clears throat] like that
could go either way, their answer?
>> Yeah, like if if Joseph Smith has a
piece of papyrus and he's like this was
written by Abraham's own hand.
I mean what he could be saying is in the
same way that Paul's own hand is
actually a
thousandth time translation of it or
>> What about Egyptologist saying that this
is not
>> Yeah, if you if you look into that, it's
pretty bad. Like not not like those
Egyptologists, none of them could agree
on anything. They all insulted each
other's interpretations of everything.
Egyptologists like aren't even good at
translating Egyptian stuff.
>> But that's your that's your argument
Egyptologists
>> that's a fact, bro. You don't know chuck
about
>> Okay.
>> You don't
>> Okay.
>> Like look at it. They all have different
translations of the same
[laughter]
>> Hey, here's here's what I will say
though.
>> I'm telling you the truth.
>> The church I wrote a whole book on it. I
understand and I understand like I
understand like when you're when it's
your faith, you have to have faith. I
understand. That's fair.
>> No, I'm going to say like you can also
have Egyptologists not agree on anything
and that's like a valid point. But
>> But you're saying but they do agree that
it's not the Book of Abraham, right?
>> No, but the church did say
>> They acknowledge
>> They acknowledge that hey, it's not on
the actual scrolls like it was used to
bring revelation. It's it's very much
like the tablets. Like the revelation
came
>> Egyptologists said it's not what it what
Joseph Smith said and the LDS church
said
>> what we found that it's not isn't that.
Yeah, and then the LDS church isn't
necessarily everything he had. Well, the
LDS church says hey, it could have been
we never found what he was translating
from.
>> that's missing. That's not the part
that's in the Book of Abraham.
>> be what we did or
what he found just inspired what he
wrote.
>> Yeah.
But it wasn't really the Book of
Abraham.
>> cuz there's like three different
arguments. There's the part Okay, we
don't have the missing parts.
>> Yeah.
>> But the parts that we do have, if we
just stick to that
the LDS church
>> Everybody agrees none of them line up.
>> Even the LDS church, right?
>> So
>> But we don't have everything that he
had.
>> Uh again I'm
>> No, I know. I know. But everything that
we do have
>> Take out the mystery stuff. Let's just
talk about what he does have.
>> Uh-huh.
>> The LDS church confirmed that it doesn't
match what Joseph Smith was saying it
was.
>> Well, they they confirmed that the
Egyptologists don't interpret it that
way.
>> Yeah, but nobody nobody
>> Egyptologists don't agree on anything.
They don't. And they all insult each
other's work.
>> So all
So you're Okay, I get it.
You know you know who uh
>> Egyptology is not an exact science. Like
they have not figured it out.
>> By the way, we we learned on Friday that
uh Brunson has the
What do you say?
>> I think.
>> of the Commandments. He owns one of the
only two private copies.
Yeah.
That later became the
>> Doctrine and Covenants.
>> Yeah. He owns
>> Is there any other Is there any other
>> Hold on.
>> documents that Joseph Smith transcribed
that we physically have still?
We don't have the golden plates. Is
there any other things that he
transcribed that we have?
>> No, as a translator, and that's the
thing you got to understand is like
Joseph Smith to me and and to anyone
understands him isn't a translator.
And that's how people kind of interpret
it, and that's how Mormons have
interpreted it, but he's a channeler.
He channels a spirit, and he writes it
down. That's what his skill set is.
>> But he But he translates. He looked at
the Egyptian papyri
>> Not really.
>> and translated from Egyptian
from
>> He like puts his hand on the plates,
then he looks in his hat, and he's like
what do the what do the plates say?
>> He puts his hand on the papyri. Why
would he not do the same thing? Puts his
hand on papyrus. I've never heard of
translation happening like that.
>> I know, that's the word they use, and he
always looked in the hat.
>> He's
>> Oh, he still used the hat in the
>> the Book of Abraham.
>> For the Book of Mormon and the Book of
Abraham and everything.
>> Okay.
>> The way he translates is by channeling.
>> Got it. Got it. His point is he's
hearing from a a spirit.
>> I agree with that 1,000%.
>> They they say the church says
translating cuz channeling sounds
creepy.
>> Well, it sounds like what
>> So you're going against the Mormon
church right now.
>> No, I mean they would
>> said the church the the LDS church says
translating.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> disagree. They know They just wouldn't
say channeling cuz they they're
>> good marketing.
>> Yeah, it's not good marketing. It's just
not good salesmanship.
>> What does your chest say? What does your
chest say?
>> the hypocephalus, high hypocephalus, and
it's facsimile two.
Which I believe is the uh
um
Egyptians doing something similar
to the Freemason ritual and to the
endowment.
>> Hey, hold on. Wait real quick. Are
Mormons allowed to have tattoos?
>> Yeah.
>> I thought they weren't.
>> I don't know. It was never a
commandment. They did put it in the For
the Strength of the Youth book that you
shouldn't have double piercings or
tattoos, but they took it out in 2022.
So.
>> There we go. Is coffee allowed yet?
>> No.
>> Are energy drinks allowed?
>> Yeah. Explain to me that.
>> Yes.
>> Explain to me
Because it can be hot.
>> I just got to know.
>> is not good.
>> [laughter]
>> What if I microwave the Monster?
>> That's bad.
>> Well, you can have hot chocolate.
>> It's just It's just the bean.
>> At what point can we put a poly market
on when that finally gets reversed?
[laughter]
I I will bet it's in my lifetime that
Mormons will be able to drink coffee. I
guarantee it.
>> Might be.
>> I guarantee it.
>> Here's the thing is the word I've
watched too many other things change.
>> The word The word of wisdom when it was
given,
>> Yeah.
>> it literally says, verbatim,
"Not to be given by commandment or
constraint." I'm not even kidding.
>> Got it.
>> So, what What do you mean?
>> Like God Joseph Smith receives a
revelation,
>> Yeah.
>> and he says, "I'm receiving this
revelation. I'm channeling it.
This isn't to be given by commandment or
constraint."
>> But he's like, "Don't drink hot tea."
>> And he's like, "Don't do alcohol.
>> Yeah.
>> Don't do strong drinks.
Don't do hot drinks.
And yeah, I mean, eat healthy and you'll
be blessed with wisdom and knowledge."
>> Hell yeah.
>> But he meant it would never It wasn't
supposed to be so strict.
>> It literally, verbatim, says, "Do not
receive this by commandment or
constraint."
>> But why though?
>> And after receiving that, Joseph Smith
smoked and he drank.
>> Yeah.
>> What's happening?
>> Okay.
>> Okay, where were we at?
>> All right, I want to talk about the the
actual issues here.
>> Yeah, so we're past the Book of Abraham.
>> being is we can go back
>> Yeah.
>> to not really caring about the Word of
Wisdom,
and we wouldn't be moving away from what
Joseph Smith
did. Cuz he taught, like, "I'm just
giving this to you as like a
recommendation. It's like a It's a
promise. Like if you do this, you'll be
healthier, but this isn't a commandment.
It's not a constraint."
>> It's very much like Proverbs. Proverbs
is the same way. Proverbs are not
necessarily like as if if you read
Proverbs word for word, it's like, "Do
this and you will be this." And it's
like, it's advice
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like
>> part. It's literally words of wisdom.
>> Yeah.
>> It wasn't like at least when Joseph
Smith received it, it wasn't supposed to
be a commandment. And then in that
>> Somehow the church just made it.
>> Yeah, we like to make things stricter
and make sure we can like give people
clear lot boundaries.
>> that with all the rules the church added
over time and then maybe removed over
time and stuff? Do you think it was like
we were talking about Pharisees before.
Do you think it was kind of like that
where it's like just trying to add too
many things that
don't really were never there?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, it's just like there's just so
many things.
>> But they have modern-day
prophets, so there's going to be more
and more revelations.
>> That's true.
>> So, let's talk about something really
important.
>> Um
>> eternity and salvation because we could
talk about whether or not Joseph
however he channeled the books. That's
just up for opinion.
>> Yeah.
>> But let's talk about like the
disagreements that Christians would have
with Mormons. So, first off, do you even
believe that
Mormons are Christians and like this big
debate about whether they're called
Christians or not?
>> I think that you could go through
everything you expect of a Christian to
receive salvation. Yeah, and I could
answer everything yes.
>> Okay.
>> And then you would like find some way to
judge me and well,
you would probably give salvation to
anyone
that says all the things I say yes to,
but you'll withhold it from me.
>> Hm.
So, here's my stance. I believe there
are
Protestants, Catholics, Mormons,
>> Orthodox.
>> Orthodox,
and all these things. I believe there's
you know, people in all of those
churches that are are
1,000%.
Where I disagree is
>> you include Mormons in there?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. I believe there are Mormons who
are saved.
>> like
the like they were still were able to
get enough faith in their idea of Jesus.
>> Well, the reason I believe they're saved
is because
they believe the core principles of
Christianity.
But, if you were to say, "Hey,
do I believe people who believe, you
know, the official teachings of the
Mormon church are saved and they believe
those things word for word and you need
these temple, you know, things to reach
the highest levels and all this stuff?"
I'd say, "No. I don't That's a different
gospel.
>> Just just go through what it takes to be
saved and I'm like and I'll say yes or
no.
>> Well, I already know you'll you'll say
yes. It's all the extras.
>> I don't know, but I'm still kind of
curious.
>> So, you'll say, "Okay,
Jesus died for our sins.
>> Yes.
>> Right? Jesus is the son of God.
>> Yes.
>> He lived a sinless life.
>> Yes.
>> You put your faith in him and, you know,
give your life to him.
>> Yes.
>> You're not saved by works.
>> Yes.
>> We might disagree.
>> believe Yeah, they believe so.
>> Yeah, we don't. You're saved by grace,
not
>> don't believe you have to be baptized to
be saved?
>> Correct.
>> He's He's a rogue LDS
>> Mormon.
>> [laughter]
>> No, I I I know I know
that.
>> [laughter]
>> No, no, no. I'm telling you
the the church really believes what I
teach.
Or what That sounds bad. [laughter]
>> The Prophet Tom, let's go, baby.
>> THAT SOUNDS BAD.
I'M TELLING YOU, IF YOU ASK A prophet in
the church that's an actual apostle,
>> Yeah.
>> you have to be baptized to be saved, he
will tell you no. Cuz it's literally in
the Book of Mormon. Moroni says, "He who
supposes that these people need to be
baptized, babies,
>> Yeah.
>> is is in the gall of bitterness and they
do not understand Christ nor the mercies
of Christ.
>> But, also, this is where it's like it
it's tough talking to a Mormon person
because they use the same words as us,
but they mean different things.
>> Well, no, no, no.
>> So, when you say saved, you're thinking
that means you're going to heaven and
you're going to be with
the Father.
>> Yeah.
>> When he says saved, there's like
different levels to heaven.
>> that. Like
This is where like did did Jesus have
more to teach than he taught? That's not
what I just talked about.
>> I asked a question.
Mormons believe in different levels
>> way that you understand heaven,
yes.
>> They in in the they will be saved
>> you guys say saved, it's two different
things because the Mormons believe in
order to be with God the Father
>> You got to be in the third level.
>> You have to be in the top level. So
>> Anyone who's saved is with God the
Father.
>> I don't mean to say that to you.
>> Yes, it is.
>> Ask Ask Chad. Ask Chad.
>> Okay, I don't have Wi-Fi.
>> I I can connect you.
>> to. I can tell you what it is. It's the
telestial, the terrestrial, and the
celestial kingdom.
>> Right.
>> Telestial is literally people who do not
know Christ and who deny Christ and who
lie, cheat, and steal. That's the first
level.
>> So that's hell.
>> That's the third level. Or that's the
first Let's call it the first level.
>> And by the way, this is in the Bible.
>> Yeah, yeah. We believe
>> Well, so you guys So you
>> telestial kingdom is in the Bible.
>> bro, this is just
>> you have the terrestrial kingdom.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Which is the second level of heaven or
>> No, this is still hell. These are good
people
>> Okay.
>> but they did not accept Jesus Christ.
>> Do you think hell is eternal suffering
and torment and all those things?
>> No.
>> Okay.
So you don't believe in So the
definition of hell
>> The definitions sound the same but
they're different meanings.
>> Okay, but these are The you guys are
talking about the celestial kingdom and
everyone who's saved goes to the
celestial kingdom, which is heaven.
That's what you're referring to.
Everything else is hell.
>> Yeah, but but your hell your view of
hell is so different in the
>> Because it's not eternal damnation.
>> Yeah, I'm just saying though, but what
what what happens
>> going to put them in hell forever?
>> But what do you What do you guys
believe? Like that's the
>> I'm teaching what they believe. I mean
what
>> like what do you think happens
in eternity to those people in the first
level? Like what's going on? They're
obviously not with God the Father.
>> Yeah, I mean it's damnation. It's
>> But they have the Holy Spirit, right or
no?
>> The The Spirit could minister to people
in hell.
>> Okay, so the Holy Spirit's in the
>> why you baptize the dead to try to get
them out of hell?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
I'm just asking.
>> It's like people who
>> I've never heard them say hell. I need
to call a Jacob Hampton right now.
>> What about what about the people
>> He's he's using our language. This is
what we would refer to as hell.
>> What about the people who didn't hear
about Jesus?
>> Yeah.
>> Do they get a chance to accept him in
the spirit world?
>> But just before we even get into that,
we have to finish
>> complaining before the podcast that
people jump all over the place.
>> I think we're gish galloping. I think
[laughter] we're just covering
>> No, no, no, but like in your first level
of hell, the way you believe of heaven,
sorry.
>> No, it's hell.
>> Okay.
>> So
>> But this is still the first when we talk
about the three levels of heaven.
>> I see what you're saying.
>> That's the first level.
Right?
>> Yeah.
>> And Christians would call that hell.
You're calling it hell, but you're
saying they don't get eternal damnation.
What's going on at that level?
>> You can call it eternal eternal
damnation. That's fine. That's what the
scriptures say.
>> But are they suffering?
>> Yes.
>> So there's fire, there's suffering,
there's demons. Is this where the demons
are?
>> Yes.
>> Okay, so it's how we would view hell.
>> I think that the Christian view of life
>> Protestant view of hell.
>> like literal burning in hell
>> Yeah.
>> is is not how we see hell.
>> What happens then?
>> Um I think that hell is when you are
when the spirit of the Lord withdraws
from you
and you're left um to your own devices.
>> So they're just it's just Grand Theft
Auto down there.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, like just
>> Like I don't
>> People are just doing whatever they
want.
>> To to be honest with you like
We're in the telestial world.
>> So we are in hell right now.
>> Yeah, this is hell.
>> This is crazy.
>> Now you don't think that this is the
actual first level though. Like this
would be how you equate it.
>> I I think that um that's accurate.
>> This is not the first level of heaven
that we have here on Earth.
>> So what I'm struggling with Ryan
>> I'm just trying to understand
>> trying I'm trying to decide I'm trying
to decide if I want I want to answer
what I believe
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> or if I want to
>> Say what you believe and then say this
is just my belief. This is not the
official Mormon belief.
>> Yeah, my understanding and my
interpretation is that this is the
telestial world.
>> Okay, you think that. But the official
Mormon teaching would be it's a
different supernatural world.
>> Mormon teaching is often that we don't
teach these things. Like we kind of like
we give really school kid answers.
Father, son, we try to keep the gospel
really simple. Repent of your sins, you
know, like we don't really get into we
try not to get into like
>> It just seems weird because like the
Bible gives us very strict answers of
what it is. And then the Book of Mormon
is supposed to give us more detail and
depth.
>> So let's talk about that. What what
strict answers do you feel like this
isn't adhering to?
>> Well, you're just saying like we don't
get into like the detail of it. You're
like we usually just kind of keep it
surface level. We don't really go in
depth. But it's like the Bible goes in
depth on what hell is.
>> Yeah.
>> Very in depth. And then we're like,
well, you know,
>> Well, we would focus more on what hell
feels like. I've I've felt hell.
>> Does But does does the Book of Mormon
even
call anything hell?
Is there actual the word hell and a
place that is called hell in the Book of
Mormon?
>> You don't remember?
>> I would say they say words like the gall
of bitterness and endless woe. And Satan
has you bound by his chains into the
gall of bitterness.
>> Jesus talks about hell more than any
other subject in the in in the gospels.
He's talking about hell. Yes.
>> Can you give me some of those quotes?
>> Hey Claude,
uh
does Jesus talk about hell more than any
other subject? If so,
how many verses does he talk about it?
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>> Lake of fire and brimstone,
the awful the awful monster death and
hell,
the chains of hell, outer darkness,
endless torment and gulf of misery and
endless woe. So,
this is what it says.
No, not technically. Jesus talks more
about the kingdom than any other subject
which have or you know, the kingdom and
hell are part of. And it says money is
second. Jesus' message was far more
about hope. He doesn't really do a lot
of fear stuff. Even when he probably
could have, right? When they bring him
like the adulterating lady, like he
doesn't say you're going to go to hell.
He says, well, I mean, go go and sin no
more.
>> I'm going to read like five right off
the top. Fear him which is able to
destroy both soul and body in hell.
Better to lose an eye and a hand than
the whole body cast into hell. Hell is
the fire that never shall be quenched
where their worm dieth not. The wicked
cast into a furnace of fire. There shall
be a wailing and gnashing of the teeth.
Depart from me,
uh you cursed into everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels.
He shall go into everlasting punishment.
>> So, do you feel like we're describing
the same place with the verses I read
you?
I'm just like, why don't they call it
hell? Like it's in the Bible.
>> says hell right here. It says the chains
of hell, outer darkness, endless torment
and the gulf of misery and endless woe,
the awful monster death and hell, and
lake of fire and brimstone.
>> Okay. So, is that the first level of
heaven?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, we we think we agree that the
way that Protestants think of hell is
what Mormons think of the first level.
What is it called? Terrestrial?
>> T-le- ter- ce-ter-tel-ti-lestrial.
>> Telestial.
>> Telestial.
>> Telestial Telestial equals hell.
>> Mhm.
>> That's a fair assessment.
>> Yeah, can I give you an analogy I think
it helps me understand this?
>> Okay.
>> So, the kingdom of God is like unto the
night sky.
The Telestial kingdom, even those souls
in hell, they still have a divine spark
and they have a piece of God's light.
And that piece of God's light is
equivalent to the brightness of a star,
maybe.
And then you have the terrestrial
kingdom
and this By the way, this is level two.
Yep. By the way, this is in the Bible.
Um he he describes the telestial
kingdoms and the different bodies. See
terrestrial telestial. Have you read
that in the Bible?
>> I've I've heard him talk about the three
heavens.
>> Okay. And then you have the terrestrial
kingdom, which is like unto the moon.
And the brightness of the moon, which is
far greater than the brightness of the
the stars. And I would refer to this as
the stars are maybe the people we meet
that don't have a knowledge of Jesus
Christ. They're still a light and a
light of Christ in them, but their light
is nothing compared to the light of
those who
um are, you know, let's say moral and
keeping good ethics and trying to follow
the way, but maybe they don't know the
name of Christ quite yet. That's as we
compare it to the moon. And then you
have the sun. And that's the celestial
kingdom. So, those who have a testimony
of Jesus Christ and they repent of their
sins and they're
born again in him. But, what's happening
in that second
uh heaven? Like
what's what's happening?
>> It's actually in the Doctrine and
Covenants. They tell you exactly what's
going on in here. So, that might be
worth reading.
>> I'm curious cuz I I would imagine
>> What does the Doctrine and Covenants say
happens in each kingdom?
>> I would imagine the top kingdom is how
Christians view heaven.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Right? The bottom is how we view hell.
Like I don't know what's happening.
>> on in the middle? So, these are good
people that didn't have a testimony of
Christ.
>> So, does Jesus go to the second level?
>> No. He doesn't go to the second level.
>> He He visits all these people.
>> Oh, he visits all three levels.
>> Yeah.
>> Like all the time?
>> But, but God the Father doesn't.
>> Right. Okay. So, God the Father is only
on the top level.
>> To my understanding.
>> Okay.
>> He sends his Holy Ghost and his son to
minister to the lower levels.
>> Okay.
So, my question is
do anyone but Mormons make it to the
third level?
>> You have to be married.
You have to do all their ordinations.
>> You just You just need faith in Jesus
Christ.
>> To go to the top level?
>> To be in the celestial kingdom.
>> Can you be not married?
>> be in the celestial kingdom.
>> I think you will be.
>> Okay.
>> And is that what the LDS Church teaches?
>> I I think that's what the LDS church
teaches.
>> [laughter]
>> Bro, I love this guy, bro. I I think
he's so funny.
>> you're Christian.
>> [laughter]
>> Bro, look at look at this meme. This is
you. Have you ever seen this meme?
>> What is the meme?
>> [laughter]
>> Where it's like they they put this face
We got to put it up. Where he's thinking
about he's like it
There's a meme where it's like when
someone asks you a question and you're
thinking about how
crazy you want to sound, so you're kind
of like
>> [laughter]
>> Hold on. I'm going to ask
What is it called? The celestial? Is
Can Can non-Mormons make it to the
celestial kingdom?
Like what it Who gets [snorts] there?
>> one?
>> It's going to say you have to be
baptized by proper authority.
>> Exactly, yeah.
>> So, we are not.
>> The thing is though
>> [laughter]
>> is like
>> You're like you're rogue Mormon. I love
you, but you're like
>> have you have you have eternity
>> to figure it out.
>> to figure that out.
>> Okay, okay, okay.
>> Yeah.
>> That sounds like a false gospel. That
sounds very scary.
>> Saints Hold on though. I'm just going to
read the official church view.
[laughter] The Latter-Day Saints believe
in the three degrees of glory. The
celestial kingdom is the highest where
God the Father and Jesus dwell. Below it
are terrestrial and telestial. Uh almost
everyone who ends up in the three or
almost everyone ends up in one of the
Dang, where do the other people go if
they're not in one of the three?
>> Out of darkness.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Amen.
>> know.
>> I know. I know. That's what Some of the
things he's saying are
>> You're like I know what the church
teaches. [laughter]
Cuz you've been a part of all these
debates.
>> Yeah.
>> Um which is why the LDS picture of
afterlife looks far more hopeful than
traditional heaven or hell teaching.
Only a very small group the sons of
perdition go to the outer darkness.
There you go, Davila. So, who reaches
the celestial kingdom? Faithful
Latter-Day Saints who accept Christ,
repent, baptized by the LDS priesthood
authority
>> Mhm.
>> and keep their covenants. The highest
level within the celestial kingdom
called exaltation
>> Yeah.
>> also recall requires temple marriage and
sealing.
>> Yeah.
>> People who never had a chance to hear
the LDS gospel. They're We heard it,
dude. I've read it. Um they're we're
cooked.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> They're They're taught in the spirit
world
>> You're not dead yet.
>> Oh, you're right. So, they're taught in
the spirit world after death.
>> Boom.
>> And if they accept the ordinances are
performed for them by proxies in a Oh,
so this is why they baptize the dead.
That's why Latter-day Saints baptize the
dead. So
>> So however long it takes your stubborn
ass to repent we'll do the work for you.
>> So you could be [clears throat] So you
could be Okay, and then just so you
know, also too, children who die before
the age of eight. That's the LDS age of
accountability.
>> Okay, so we could still make it to the
third level of heaven, the top level.
>> Hold on, let me Claude just said there's
a catch for someone like you.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> That's what it said. There's a catch for
someone like you. Claude knows me. D&C
76 describes the terrestrial kingdom as
the place for honorable men of the earth
who didn't receive the testimony of
Jesus in life but accepted it
afterwards. The common LDS reading is
that people who heard the LDS message
and rejected it in this life generally
miss the celestial kingdom. Latter-day
Saints differ on how to
Why is it acting like that's for me?
Um
>> Yeah.
See, so we kind of differ on how to
reconcile that.
>> So hold on. So we can make it But I
don't think we could ever be in the
celestial. Like it just it [laughter]
seems pretty cut and dry to me.
>> It seems like you would have to accept
priesthood authority.
>> You have to be a Mormon. You have to be
sealed. You'd have to do everything.
>> You have to accept priesthood authority
just to get It's just baptism.
They get you into heaven.
>> So you have to be baptized. But what is
the sealed thing?
>> Well, you you're not getting into that.
But that's how you become celestial.
>> No. Once you're in the gate the the gate
to the celestial kingdom is baptism.
Okay? That's all you guys want as
Christians. You just want to be angels
in heaven.
>> But we won't have exaltation.
>> Well, you don't want to become like God.
>> Okay, so let's get to the point. You
think you could become like God. You
could be God.
>> That's what the scriptures teach.
>> Do you think Okay,
>> The Bible.
>> Which which scripture teaches that in
the Bible?
>> Um Jesus.
>> Where? He says, "I would have you to
become perfect as I am."
>> Okay. So you
>> I have a lot of verses I can bring up.
>> Okay, yeah, bring up the verses. Let's
>> And by the way, I want you guys to know
this.
I read the Bible.
>> Nice.
>> And I when I read these, I wrote them
down and I highlighted them. And I was
like, "Oh, that shows the doctrine of
exaltation." That shows the doctrine of
exaltation. I didn't cherry-pick this
from like an apologist or something. And
sometimes I read these to people and
they're like, "Oh, that's just you're
just cherry-picking the common one." I'm
like, "No, dude. I read the Bible
and I prayed every time before I read it
and I said, "God, teach me what you're
trying to say in the scriptures."
>> But I do believe we become perfect.
>> Yeah.
>> But you don't
you don't think you become God.
>> No.
>> Like Well, you're never going to replace
God, but are you a son of God?
>> We're a son of God, yeah, but we're not
God.
>> adopted into the lineage of the son of
God.
>> I didn't say I wasn't a son of God.
>> Well, as a son of God, you're
>> There's a difference between son of God
and being God.
>> You're never going to replace God. Like
just because like I'm never going to
replace my dad. Like I'm not going to
He's always going to be my father.
>> But let's just go into to more Do you
believe Do you believe God the Father
was once human?
>> No. By the way, that's not doctrine.
Like you're you're getting into per
adventures.
>> did Joseph Smith teach that?
>> can I get into a thousands of things
that all of your prophets have said or
all of your apostles have said that
weren't doctrine?
>> Like what?
>> You don't think that any of the people
you followed have ever said, "Hey, what
if this was true?" But they didn't say I
don't think this is true.
>> Which prophet are you talking about?
>> popes would be easier to talk about.
>> Uh but I'm not
>> Okay, so
is there anyone that you believe I guess
you don't.
>> No.
>> You don't really have a prophet.
>> No. I only believe in the prophets in
the Bible.
>> about some prophets in the Bible.
You don't think Moses ever said anything
that wasn't scripture?
>> I don't believe he ever taught
something heretical.
We don't have record of it.
>> Well, what do you think about him
killing that guy? I think he was right.
>> record of it. Did he teach us to go kill
guys?
>> we but we have record of him killing the
guy.
>> Yeah. So, let's get back to it. So,
>> But but hold on. Hold on. The the the
thing is like we have record of Joseph
Smith's teachings.
>> Yeah.
>> That you know, let let's say they they
aren't scripture.
>> Yeah. But they they were being taught in
a a setting, right? And this they're
like, "Hey, that's not canon."
>> You So, you have like for me right now.
Like you guys could have me say
something right now that I I really
contemplated. I might just say it. Or I
might preach and kind of just riff. But
there's a few things where you have thus
saith the Lord. I was talking to God
last night. He told me to tell you guys
this. So those are like
canonical, right? They go into the
canon. They're like God told me this.
And that that was never claimed with the
God as and that's like a peradventure.
>> Hold on. Hold on. What is a
peradventure?
>> A peradventure is like hey, well
peradventure, what if like, you know, if
if God owns the whole universe and we're
going to become his sons, peradventure
we all get our own planets. Like that's
like you're you're hypothesizing based
on a premise.
>> hold on. Hold on. So the the planet
thing you think
isn't real or is a possibility?
>> Yeah, it's a possibility.
>> It's a possibility.
>> It's a possibility, but it's not like
hey, we all believe this.
>> Yeah, no. They're never like you're
going to get your own planet. You're
just thinking if the universe is big and
I'm going to be a son of God, does that
mean I get my own planet?
>> with him there. That's not a
fundamental teaching. That's the planet
thing. But was God a man who was exalted
to become God and then,
you know, he created all of us with
heavenly mother.
>> It's a peradventure.
>> But do you think that?
>> That's not canon.
That's not scripture. That's not
doctrine.
>> Do you think that?
>> Um
Yeah, I do.
>> Okay.
And Joseph Smith and Brigham Young
taught that
>> on. Hold on.
>> Right? Just just to be clear, I don't
want the Mormons to be mad at me. Did
>> It's not canon. It's not doctrine. I
didn't ask you that.
Supposed it to be true.
>> That's not what I asked you.
>> Same thing with the
>> Jesus having wives?
>> Uh-huh. It's like based on these
principles, I could kind of infer this
could be reasonable.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Did Joseph Smith
and Brigham Young teach that God the
Father was once man?
>> Um they both taught that.
>> Okay.
So they believe God was once man. He was
created by another God,
right?
>> Well, none of none of us are ever
created.
We don't believe in We don't believe in
We don't
>> existed forever. We've always existed.
>> Right. We believe the earth itself was
formed with pre-existing materials. And
same thing with you and I.
>> I get super deep. Okay, so
>> Like our souls existed far beyond before
our bodies.
>> Yeah. So basically
>> Like a ring, right? That's what they
would say?
Like a ring has no beginning.
>> Yeah, like one eternal round.
>> Yeah. Okay, so basically
>> my chance.
>> me just Let me just
>> I mean I mean I mean
>> Let me Let me just [laughter] say never
mind. Let me make this simple for the
audience.
>> I mean to your point.
>> So
>> I'm not saying I agree with the point.
I'm just saying
>> Mormons believe that
>> [laughter]
>> everyone's soul was always existed.
>> Yeah.
>> And then I guess certain people became
God.
Right?
>> At some point they worked their way up
to God, right?
>> know about that.
What it what it looks like is a stairway
going up. And one eternal round, if you
look at it from the third dimension is a
circle. But if you look at it from the
fifth dimension, it extends out. So
consciousness, once trapped, it ascends.
And that's just the nature of
at least those of us who are of the over
soul of Elohim,
we grow. That's just a part of our
nature, and we extend out forever. And
it's one eternal round.
>> like an a God that created the souls?
>> Like if there was like you're
speculating souls
>> an origin Was there an origin
But it's not really because the Bible
teaches us there was just always a
always God.
>> In the In the New Testament, he says
there are gods many and lords many, but
to us one God.
Right?
>> I mean they're talking about people on
Earth and kings and stuff.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean Jesus says you are
gods, and all of you are children of the
Most High.
>> But my
>> So
>> Back to my point though. Like in the
Bible, we have who we consider God the
Father.
>> The The Bible affirms there are other
gods, but to us there is but one God.
>> What does it say about those other gods?
>> Well, in in the context of Usually in
the Old Testament, it's referring to
those other gods as like
Baal
>> Yeah. So they were wicked.
>> But you can't deny that the Pharaoh's
gods The Pharaoh's gods had power.
>> But they were wicked, right?
>> And God wants to destroy
>> Well, I think anything that's not
aligned with our gods just wrong. It's
just wicked.
>> But is it is it is it not powerful? You
know?
>> Right. So, I mean, we we know that there
are pagan gods, which we would just call
demons.
>> Well, we're saying they're real. Yeah,
the demons.
>> Yeah. Yeah, nobody disagrees with that.
>> Yeah, but Satan's got some compelling
arguments.
>> But, I'm We're talking big G
God.
>> [laughter]
>> Right?
>> You disagree?
>> I don't think he has good arguments.
>> Satan's never gotten in your ear, but
you're like
>> No, I I believe he has good lies.
>> Yeah.
>> They're lies.
>> They're not good arguments.
>> they're They're compelling.
>> They're lies. Yeah, yeah.
>> They got They got me a few times.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> [laughter]
>> Okay, talking God, big G, Yahweh.
Okay?
>> Elohim or yeah. Same guy.
>> Well, I'm not talking to angels and and
these beings below God. I'm talking
about
>> Elohim is eternal. Yeah.
>> the creator of the universe.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay?
>> Who the Bible would say has always been
>> Uh-huh.
>> created all things from nothing, created
your soul, our soul, our bodies. Okay?
And that Jesus the Holy Spirit and God
Trinitarian beliefs, right?
>> Jesus They've all been there.
>> Yeah.
>> Right? From the beginning in Genesis.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I just don't get how we comprehend
that
>> We can't comprehend it. That's the
problem.
>> no, but I don't get how we add that
Well, actually
you know you can become God.
>> Mhm.
>> And have a heavenly mother.
>> It's It's almost like the Big Bang
Theory.
Right? It's like if I find something
that's always growing can I therefore
conclude that it had a beginning? Like
if the universe is ever expanding
>> There was a beginning though at some
point.
>> Yeah, but that's the it. It's like
you're just hypothesizing this must have
had a beginning.
>> point of when it began. Like God was
always there. In the Mormon theology
at some point it had to begin.
>> So, you believe the Father was created.
>> No.
>> Like we don't even believe we were
created.
>> But, he
>> Well
>> We don't believe man was created.
>> there was a time where God the Father
was just a man like us.
>> No, because we believe man was never
created.
>> I'm saying you believe at one point God
the Father was a man just like us.
Is eternal. And has no beginning.
>> I understand that.
>> Yeah, [clears throat] God was in in his
view
>> Our God was a spirit
who became a man, who was exalted into
Godhood,
who then
was with heavenly mother
>> Yeah.
>> and then has domain over this world. Is
that accurate?
>> It's hard to say it's accurate cuz it's
not doctrine and it's not scripture.
>> But that's what you believe.
>> I mean, I would say I believe that if I
literally could contemplate that based
on principles, I don't think that that's
like crazy. I don't think it's like out
outlandish.
>> And I don't want to jump off the topic.
I'm just saying
concluding things that I haven't even
concluded. And I don't want to get off
topic, but a question
back like in 1970 and before, you guys
didn't believe that black people could
make it to the highest level.
Is that what the Is that true or is that
not true?
>> I feel like that's true.
>> Okay, so black people couldn't reach
there before. They were only on like the
lower levels.
>> Yeah.
>> Got it.
>> Well, I think they were at the lowest
lower level. They got salvation, but not
exaltation.
>> Yeah. So, but you had to be white
to get to the highest level.
>> They weren't letting They weren't
letting black people
>> Got it. Got it. Got it.
>> You know what's funny cuz I don't think
Joseph Smith did that.
>> It was Brigham Young. It was Brigham
Young Brigham Young thing. But now you
guys believe that black people can reach
the highest level.
>> Yeah.
>> Got it. All right, that's cool.
>> So like
>> But it's new revelation. But it's new
revelation. But back then they stopped
people from doing it.
>> So it was just Brigham's revelation?
>> But he was a prophet to you, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, you got to believe
whatever the prophet says.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, you could also believe that
prophets
>> And didn't Brigham Young
believe that God was Abraham? Didn't he
teach that? That
>> Adam.
>> I'm sorry. Adam. So, Brigham Young
taught that Adam
>> I never heard that.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, this is a crazy doctrine that he
taught. You got to give it to him. That
one was wild.
>> I I actually like I I get it, too.
>> Brigham Young was more wild than Joseph.
Yeah. He's like, "Let's like
>> But Joseph Smith didn't teach that.
>> Hey, did you know also Brigham Young
taught people lived on the moon?
>> Yeah.
>> You knew that?
>> I'm pretty sure that was a per
adventure, too. That was a per
adventure, but he taught it.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm not saying it's scripture, but he
taught it.
>> you have these principles, and then you
like you sit there in the mountains with
like your 10 wives, and you're like
I bet you God was a person. You know
what I'm saying? Like you just like keep
and you're like, you know what? Gather
all the people. I'm I'm really riffing
on this.
>> [laughter]
>> You know what? I'm feeling THE SPIRIT
RIGHT NOW.
I THINK THAT I THINK I'M onto something
here.
It doesn't mean that God actually was
speaking to him.
It's like I don't know what you guys
>> But this is like the hard part about it,
cuz like how do you believe anyone that
anybody says? Like these cuz if these
guys can just go off the cuff, and they
teach people all this stuff.
>> wanted to canonize a doctrine, they'd
have to There's keys. That's what's nice
about the gospel.
>> the black thing, right? Cuz that was
that was a rule before that black people
couldn't have the priesthood.
>> It was a policy.
>> Also, wasn't So it was a policy.
>> Yeah, they didn't like release in
scripture, blacks people will never have
the priesthood. They literally said,
it's not their time. They have to like
The story was
>> can't have the priesthood.
>> Yeah.
>> So women and blacks Well, well, blacks
can, but women cannot.
>> Yeah.
>> Got it.
>> I mean,
the priesthood is just something that's
held by the masculine. It's actually
like females have it naturally, if
anything. They literally are the vessel
of
God.
>> Is there verses about the black people
not being able to be
in heaven, the highest level of heaven?
>> No. That's not in scripture.
>> Where did that come from?
>> Um
Well, it's kind of like the the mark of
Cain.
>> Yeah.
>> It was like that was the hypothesis.
That was their per adventure. They're
like, well, why are
the black people seem to be cursed?
>> These per adventures are crazy.
>> [laughter]
>> I just can't
It's like I just I'm like how do you
believe when half They're like, I may or
may not be speaking truth right now.
>> And this is where like to be like it's
funny and it's a joke, but and then at
some point we got to get some conclu- a
conclusion. But this is like it's funny,
like I said, it's a joke, but
this is very dangerous. This is eternity
that we're playing with, that we're
talking about. We're making it a joke,
but like black people couldn't make it
to the highest level to be got with God
the Father.
Like, you know, God had a human body and
all these things like
some people believe that believing these
heresies will send you to hell.
Right?
>> I mean, the Catholic dogma is like, if
you don't believe some real specific
stuff, you'll go to hell.
>> Exactly. So, it's funny, but it's also
like So, I think Joseph Smith could be
leading millions and millions of people
to hell with his false teachings.
Or what we would call the whatever the
word is.
>> When like, I think you you would judge
someone based off of the doctrine that
they teach. Their dogmas, right? You're
not going to be like, "What was all the
per adventures of all the Popes?" You're
going to be like, "What are the dogmas
that we hold to?"
>> Yeah, but none of the Popes wrote
scripture.
>> All right, but the things we're talking
about aren't scripture.
>> No, I know, but once again, we have
nothing with
you know, Peter and Paul and these guys
having per adventures. That's the
problem.
I'm sure they did. We don't have it
though.
>> I know, but this is like recent history.
>> Yeah.
>> But we have the Bible. We have other
things. We have We have a
>> writings that we do have, we have other
writings.
>> too, like we have the
>> The only thing you We have the DDK and
the
>> The only thing you keep for 2,000 years
is scripture. And you let the journals
and the journal discourses and the per
adventures kind of dwindle cuz it
weren't they weren't doctrine. They
weren't sacred. You don't You don't have
scribes copy those by hand for hundreds
of years. And honestly, we're probably
going to have a lot more of that in the
latter days cuz now we've got recordings
and like audio and stuff. It's like, you
can just riff and and capture it all.
Whereas then, you had to literally have
another scribe, teach him Latin, and
have him copy it for a thousand years
through the Dark Ages.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you're only going to get the
scriptures to that stuff.
>> Yeah, that's why I always tell people
like, I don't know if
you know, Mormons are are saved or not.
I don't know. That's just me assuming
that I'm saved cuz obviously, I think
then in that case, I would think I'm
right and you're wrong. But, people
should
really look into what Joseph Smith
taught
and his record of translating things and
figure out if they think he's a true
prophet or not. That's what it comes
down to.
>> They really should.
>> Because if he if he is a false
teacher, then he could be leading a lot
of people to hell with a false gospel
because what is the gospel?
That Jesus was Yahweh.
Jesus is God. Right? And if you're
teaching that Jesus is a different God
than who he was teaching us he was,
you're risking going to hell.
>> Now, I read what the Book of Mormon
teaches who Jesus is.
>> Yeah. It doesn't teach It seems to be
the same, but is it the same?
>> It seems verbatim. Yeah.
>> It seems, but is it?
>> It is. The words are verbatim.
>> So, Jesus is Yahweh.
>> Yeah, in that scripture I shared with
you.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, see I just think
>> It's different teaching
>> align on a lot. This and this is just
part of the podcast. Like I just think
we align on a lot. And I think a lot of
your beliefs are like a lot of Christian
beliefs, too. Like typical Protestant
beliefs.
>> Yeah.
>> I think
>> But the LDS church is like turning into
more Protestant views.
>> They are.
>> Yeah, that's their marketing. They're
slowly becoming more Protestant.
>> Like
how so?
>> Like they used to teach that God the
Father
was a man.
>> They never taught that.
>> Did Joseph Smith ever teach that? I
asked you that already.
>> He didn't Like we have we say stuff at
general conference, we say stuff in the
scriptures, and we say stuff like as we
give like official statements as
apostles.
>> Uh-huh.
>> Just cuz you recorded something Joseph
said at a sermon before he died, doesn't
mean that's canon.
>> Did I Did I record it or did he write
it? It doesn't mean it's canon. Did he
ever write it?
>> No, but other prophets and stuff have
reiterated it.
>> it.
>> Yeah, but other prophets have reiterated
it.
>> Yeah.
>> Over the years. Well, you know, Brigham
has
gone on that path and like, "Oh, maybe."
>> And other prophets
>> But it's not like it's not doctrine, you
know? So, like point being is if you
really want to evaluate Joseph Smith,
you should start with the Book of
Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the
Pearl of Great Price, and see how that
resonates. And you should you know,
should you dig into
every per adventure?
>> But but hold on hold on hold on though.
One thing I just noticed is that a lot
of times
Mormons will say, "Well, look how close
it is. Like they line up with what the
Bible says."
>> Yeah.
>> And it's like, well, if it's not really
teaching anything different, then why
are we Why not just talk about the
Bible, you know? But then
we get into fantasy land with all these
other things that Joseph taught that's
not doctrine. And it's like, well, hold
on now. He's also just randomly saying
this, but then Yeah, this thing that's
official is also
90%
>> I would have you get into
you know, basically
in conclusion, cuz we have to drop a
What the gospel teaches that you guys
don't have
is the doctrine of exaltation.
>> Okay.
>> And the priesthood and the priesthood
keys on the earth today. So, I'll read
I'll read a few verses.
You know, one is
For as many as are led by the spirit of
God, they are the sons of God. For you
have not received the spirit of bondage,
but you have received the spirit of
adoption. Whereby we cry, "Abba Father."
The spirit itself witness with our
spirit that we are the children of God.
And if children, then heirs, heirs of
God and joint heirs with Christ, if so
be that we suffer with him that we may
also be glorified together. For I reckon
that the sufferings of this present time
are not worthy to be compared with the
glory that shall be revealed unto us.
Be therefore perfect, even as your
Father which is in heaven is perfect.
For as much then as we are the offspring
of God, we ought not to think of the
Godhead like unto gold or silver or
stone graven by arts and our man's
device. We ought to think of God as our
Father and us as his children. I add
that. Behold now, we are the sons of God
and if it doth not yet appear that we
shall be, but we know that when he shall
appear, we shall be like him, for we
shall see him as he is.
So, like the the doctrine that is
missing is you guys are going to go to
the celestial kingdom because you've
accepted Jesus Christ.
Period.
God, once you're into his kingdom, he
intends you to become as his son. And as
his son, he intends you to inherit all
of his kingdom. And that means that you
will inherit
endless growth. And part of endless
growth is eternal families.
Part of
growth is sealing on heaven what will be
sealed in heaven. So, sealing our
families for eternity, cuz that's what
godhood really is. You can't be a god
without your wife, right? And it's it's
in the masculine and the feminine coming
together that creates
>> But what about the verse where Jesus is
like there's no marriage in heaven?
>> Yeah, there is no marriage in heaven.
Marriage is a ordinance that you take
part on Earth in the temple. It's a
sealing ordinance.
If you get to heaven and you haven't
been married yet, it's too late for you.
>> No, no, no, but when when they're
talking about, "Hey, who am I going to
be married to?" You know,
>> the seven brothers.
>> Yeah.
>> And he says,
>> "No one's No one's taken or given in
marriage in heaven."
Marriage is a earthly ordinance, just
like baptism. No one's baptized in
heaven.
>> But you guys have to believe
people are
>> Baptism is something that happens in
your mortal body, or someone can do it
in the behalf for you in the mortal
body. But you're not going to do it in
the celestial body once you're
resurrected. You have to
>> But how would you guys interpret the
verse of the seven brothers who she's
married to?
>> Mhm.
>> Who is she sealed to?
>> Sounds like none. If you're not married
for eternity,
>> common to like
>> that that agreement has no value in the
eternal world. The only person who can
seal things for time and eternity is
God, and by his authority only. So, man
making a marriage, you know, "Till death
do we part." That's what it's going to
be. To death do you part. So, the gift
of exaltation and the gift of eternal
marriage and the gift of sealing your
family forever, and in that is how we
become the sons and daughters of God.
Combined with our family, we will have
endless posterity as the children of the
sea, which is how God has his endless
creation. Endless creation is
>> you're infertile?
>> [snorts]
>> Then you'll be like an angel.
Or maybe you'll in your resurrected body
that'll be settled, you know?
You can probably You can still get
sealed if you're in if you're infertile.
So, you can still get the blessings of
exaltation.
>> And men can be sealed to multiple women.
>> Um not now. That's definitely not
something that's happening in the last
100 years, but um yes.
>> Men have been sealed to multiple women.
>> So, if a man gets a divorce now and he
gets a new wife, he can't seal to his
new wife if he's Mormon. He cannot.
>> You have to
you'd have to either break the old
ceiling. I think that they will allow
you to to
>> You get unsealed.
>> Yeah, you can get unsealed. There are
people that have been sealed to multiple
people even after the first wife died.
>> Yeah.
>> To answer that question though.
>> So you can get sealed to multiple women.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
So anyways, that's the invitation. You
read these verses, I can send them to
you.
>> Yeah.
>> You read the Book of Mormon, you you
have a desire what does it mean to
become a son of God? What exactly is
exaltation? Are we really just angel
servants in heaven forever?
>> Right.
>> Or does God intend for us to create and
co-create with him and with Christ and
with our wives forever and take part in
creation which is a a masculine and
feminine thing. Cuz by yourself, this is
why the church is going to get twice as
cool cuz right now we really only have
the masculine portion of the church. As
we bring in the feminine portion, you
don't get it's not 1 + 1 = 2 when you
bring the masculine and feminine
together.
You actually unlock
God's power, the creative power,
literally the power of creation and that
1 + 1 is infinity. So that's why it's
it's so important to be sealed and so
important to have that in in the
celestial kingdom and that's something
that to my understanding that
Protestants and Catholics don't believe
goes on in heaven. I don't think they
they think that that
>> verse literally that there is no
marriage in heaven.
>> Yeah, does that sound like heaven to
you?
>> Well, I mean
>> [sighs]
>> when God first created Adam, there was
no marriage.
It seemed like he put them together,
right? What God put together
>> saying when he first did.
>> Right, but then he said, "Ah, he needs a
help meet."
>> Yeah. No, I I'm just saying though if if
we believe Eden was the original
you know, heaven. If you guys believe
heaven's coming back down to earth,
right?
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> And that would be the celestial kingdom.
>> Yeah. Well, Christ will come live with
us so it'll be the celestial kingdom.
>> And earth will be restored.
>> Yeah, it'll be like a celestial world.
Thousand years of the millennium.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> And we'll build a bunch of temples and
we'll do a bunch of baptisms for the
dead so people can accept them.
>> Now, what I appreciate is um
you know, look, none of us here are
none of us here are trained, you know,
apologists like uh
>> No.
>> the guys Davila has on.
>> No, yeah, I know.
>> Um so we're just three entrepreneurs
talking shop about really important
things. Davila said this, too, just
about eternity because the there is no
more important thing, right? We we
didn't even talk about business and
making money and all this stuff because
uh
eternity is so important. But, um
there's very few
entrepreneurs who understand their faith
at a pretty high level, which you
obviously do. Um that are willing to be
bold and talk about it, you know, in a
public manner and even if there's
disagreements or I look stupid or you
look stupid or whoever, like it's just
everyone here
like is is actually in search of truth
and all those things. Like I've had
Catholics on, I've had, you know,
Muslims on and other things and like
there there have been points where like
people make a a statement, I'm like, you
know, I never considered that. I need to
like really
look into it
>> Yeah.
>> and research it.
>> Yeah, I want to read 2 Corinthians
.
So, it says, "These people are false
prophets, or sorry, false apostles.
They are deceitful workers who disguise
themselves as apostles of Christ.
But, I am not surprised. Even Satan
disguises himself as an angel of light.
So, it is no wonder that his servants
also disguise themselves as servants of
righteousness.
In the end,
they will get the punishment their
wicked de- deeds deserve."
So, like
I I know we're like joking around and
stuff, but
I believe Satan tricks people and it
looks good.
>> 100%.
>> It looks like righteousness like
righteousness.
So, people just have to really look into
Joseph Smith and, you know, talk to
their pastors or priests about you know,
the Mormon religion and then talk to
like
>> That's probably the the worst way to
look into the one.
>> Well, I I I'm not finished. And then if
they want to learn about the Mormon
religion, they should go talk to a
Mormon pastor. Right?
>> Missionary.
>> Or yeah, don't take what we're speaking
about on this podcast as like the
official statements of the LDS church.
Unless you want to be held to that
standard.
>> For sure not. [laughter]
>> Yeah, so if you're someone looking into
it, go talk to your pastor or priest.
And then if you want to go talk to, you
know, a Mormon pastor or whatever, or
Mormon bishop.
>> So telling someone to go talk to their
pastor and priest is like telling, you
know, a Vivint rep to go talk to his
manager to know if the pest control guy
is telling the truth.
>> No.
>> That's exactly what I like.
>> I think every Christian should have a
spiritual [cough and laughter] authority
that they have, and they should go talk
to that person first,
hear what they think before they go talk
to, you know, someone from the opposite
faith.
>> You know what I will say?
I would also probably assume that
many pastors and priests don't even know
most of the things we discussed today.
>> I would assume there are a lot that do
though.
>> Some.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So
>> They they probably don't have, you know,
they they just you just learn the
talking points.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's one thing I really do like
respect. Like you do have a business
here. It's like the wealthy way podcast,
and you you are like
doing Christian stuff. You know, you got
a Bible right there. Like you talk about
God. You're not ashamed of God. Like
>> We got our little home schooler out
there.
>> Yeah. That's cool, bro. I really respect
it.
>> How
>> by the way, huge thing here.
I don't really respect entrepreneurs
that have millions of dollars and don't
have kids.
For me I'm like that's not that cool,
bro. But if you're if you have five kids
and you're rich,
>> Yeah.
>> like that's respectable.
>> got a six on the way.
>> I have six kids. Yeah. How many kids do
you have?
>> Four.
>> Or three.
>> Four.
>> Sorry.
>> Do you have a fourth on the way?
>> No, I'm just thinking of his fourth.
>> [laughter]
>> I got four.
>> Tell me tell me about um
>> Just
>> As we wrap up here, I do want to hear
about business and stuff because you're
obviously successful entrepreneur. You
guys got a big solar business. You've
done a lot, and you're launching, you
know, coaching for solar and stuff.
How has
you know, that business grown from faith
and everything else? cuz I think he
probably built it with door knocking
which
like missionaries. Well, no, just like
being a missionary for a couple years
like just preps you for crushing it.
>> Yeah, and tell us what you do have cuz I
don't even you know, myself and the
listeners don't even know.
We haven't covered what your business
is.
>> Yeah, so we do I'm in the Central Valley
in California. We do all of California.
We do home home efficiency home
upgrades. My my goal was for Bright
House to be a all-inclusive like home
services. Right now, we lead with
windows and then we sell solar,
batteries, HVAC, roof.
I'd say an 80% of my business like
revenue-wise has been solar and
batteries.
>> Yeah.
>> Um what I'm trying to do is is fix the
solar industry. The reason I stayed in
the industry is I saw so much potential
and it was so bad.
>> Yeah.
>> I I worked for Vivint. I worked for
Moxie. They got their systems dialed and
solar's just a show. It's just an
absolute nightmare and I was like,
"Okay, this is a place where I can
really make an impact." Right? You're
you're paid according to the the
the level of the problem you're solving.
>> Right.
>> Right? So like these are big problems
and so in the last 5 years I've spent
learning solar all the way from A to Z.
I do the sales. I do the permitting. I
do the inspections. I run the crew. I
get it all the way to PTO. And the solar
back ops operations is a nightmare.
>> Mhm.
>> This is what's put everyone out of
business. Sunnova, SunPower, Titan, like
Lumio. Solar's incredibly difficult.
Most of the financers have gone out of
business. So I'm working on a solution
on how we're going to bring these people
together. You have the installer, the
sales team, and the financer. My goal is
to get the sales guys paid residually on
the 30-year contracts
>> Oh, wow.
>> so that they're incentivized to do good
business. Get the EPCs paid residually
as well cuz solar's a Ponzi scheme. It's
a Ponzi scheme. You make four grand on
the install, but then you have 10 years
of warranty. So after 3 years you should
just go out of business cuz your
warranty's going to put you out of
business.
>> Oh, snap.
>> So by getting these installers that pay,
but also some residual pay with the
customer's monthly payments, that's
actually going to keep the installers in
business to service these systems
long-term. That's what we're trying to
get rid of is this like sign and dip
culture of the solar. You sign up a
grandma, you get out of town, and like
hopefully you never see her again. Like
that's literally solar culture. It's
it's awful. So, that's why I did like I
bought my house in Fresno. I bought my
office in Fresno.
I want to show them like we're staying
here. We stand on business. If you've
had an install from us, we will come out
and take care of you. And you know, come
to my office and talk to me in person. A
lot of these guys,
>> [clears throat]
>> you know, if they found you in person,
they'd beat you up cuz you you signed up
their grandma and rip her off and got
out of town.
>> What do you think's going to happen to
the solar industry cuz they got rid of
the credits and all that and a lot of
these companies are going bankrupt like
you said?
>> Well, that's the thing. That's why it's
such an opportunity. Is the whole the
you know, you got to buy the fear.
>> Yeah.
>> Right? So, you could have, you know,
2020, 2019, money was flying out the
door. Now, all of financing is getting
out. Customer sentiment is at an
all-time low. So, you got to buy the
fear. That's what I'm doing is I'm I'm
building an infrastructure to monetize
tax credits for batteries that aren't
going to go away all the way till 2032.
>> Mhm.
>> And it's it's a great opportunity cuz
everyone else is getting out and they
don't see an opportunity to build the
solution. So, the reality is is our our
power demand's not going to go away.
>> Yeah.
>> Solar's not going to go away. Batteries
aren't going to go away. Power's not
going to get cheaper.
So, I'm I'm doubling down. You know, I'm
building a solution where we finance
these projects ourselves. We if you have
anyone that has a lot of tax they want
to get out of, we help them mitigate
their tax um liability. And we we own
the full stack ourselves. We get we are
responsible for that monthly payment. We
make sure our customers are actually
educated and happy. And it's a pretty
exciting pipeline. My goal is in the
next 3 years to take like 20 to 30% of
Sunrun's business.
>> Mhm.
>> So, that's what I'd like to do. I think
that there's a good opportunity for it
and I think that the the market really
needs a product that we're going to roll
out.
>> Mhm.
And then, the people that are going to
work with you in the solar industry,
how are you going to help change their
business?
I'm just getting a bunch of reels, by
the way.
>> Yeah.
>> Like, I don't even know if this makes
any sense in the pod or anything we just
talked about, but he'll have them.
Um so, guys that own dealers or EPCs,
I'm going to help them make a lot more
money because we're going to show them
how to get their failed credits through,
get approved. I have over $4 million in
business of failed credits that I've
been paid on.
>> Yeah.
>> Right? So, just showing them those tools
is a lot of money that's being left on
the table. And then I also show these
companies how to get paid NTP and how to
pay their sales reps at NTP, and
mitigate the risk around that. Cuz
that's the biggest reason people get out
of the solar game is they can't wait 60
to 90 days to get paid. Takes you 60 to
90 days to figure it out, and you you go
broke in the meantime.
>> Yeah.
>> So, if you can if you can get paid at
NTP, and if you can pay your sales rep
at NTP, it fixes a lot of that problem.
>> Yeah.
>> The third thing that I bring is I show
them how to get better tax credits than
they had in '25 and '26. Cuz in '25,
homeowners would get a tax credit maybe
depending on their tax liability. I can
get them a guaranteed check in the mail
that's better than that what they were
getting back then, and it doesn't depend
on their tax liability.
>> Wow.
>> And a lot of EPCs and dealers, they just
don't know about these tools. They're
not set up with the right connections,
and that's what we're building like the
Solar Mafia for and having those events
for.
>> And then if somebody wants to
get involved in what you're doing, where
do they go?
>> Just on my Instagram. Got a link in the
bio, and you kind of see what you're
interested in, but if you're high-level
and you actually doing millions of
dollars of revenue, you want to look at
joining like our mastermind and come to
some of those events. If you're just a
rep, you know, you DM me. We we can
always place reps.
>> Okay. So, we'll link that down below in
the description.
Uh last question,
you know, for you, how has faith played
a role in building your business?
>> Um for me, faith is everything.
Um it's my our slogan is like choosing a
brighter future. I think that to buy
solar takes a lot of faith. You have to
believe you're going to be here for 25
years or someone else is, and someone's
going to buy power for 25 years. Like,
that's
a faithful investment, right? A lot of
people are like, "The world's ending
next year. I don't even know if I'm
going to be alive." It's like it takes
the people that are are have faith in
the future to make a decision like this.
And then solar is the biggest
faith-bound door-to-door
item you can do. Cuz everything else,
pest control, fiber, you don't need a
lot of faith. You just go out, you're
going to see a deal in 1 or 2 days.
Solar, you have to stick to your basic
inputs. You might not see a deal for
your first 30 days.
>> Yeah.
>> And the the amount of faith it takes to
keep focusing and doing those daily
actions, hoping you're going to get that
outcome, cuz it's it's the
highest-ticket door-to-door sale you can
do.
>> Right, it's the hardest.
>> So, faith is probably the most important
attribute that a solar door-to-door
salesman guy can have. Cuz every other
industry you can kind of see the bread
in the the pudding pretty quick.
>> If somebody was going to come on your
team for
If somebody was going to join your solar
team, like what's the expected income
they could make?
>> So, guys like me, which I don't feel
like should be that rare, but like guys
that were doing good at past, doing good
at Vivint, if you come in and learning
our learn our process, what I find as a
self-genner is it takes me 30 hours to
get a deal.
>> Okay.
>> So, I got to knock for 30 hours
>> a week.
>> a week, but my average commission is
about 10 grand. And then I can
absolutely work knock for 60 hours. You
know, I was in past I was doing 70
hours, you know? But at a low base for
your business,
put 30 hours on the doors, you'll get a
deal. And so, that's 10 grand. You do
that four times a month, you should be
making $40,000 a month. Then you build
up from that, you get two or three
setters. They set you up so you're
getting like an additional one or two
sets, where you might only get half the
commission cuz you got to pay your
setter. But that's how you should be
getting up to $100,000 a month pretty
quick. And if you're not doing that,
then you're doing something wrong, um or
you you don't know what you're doing,
you're not trained well. Most common in
solar is you're just not knocking.
>> Right.
>> People like they want to see a deal
every day, they want to see a deal every
eight hours.
You just got to focus on the inputs and
just say, "Hey, it's going to take me 30
hours." Most setters I say, like if
you're a setter that's good, you're
going to make 10 to 15,000, maybe 20. If
you're great
>> for a setter who don't even close
anything, that's crazy.
>> Yeah. But
>> it's the it's that whole pipeline that I
like to train people on as fast as they
can. But you don't want to run before
you can walk. That's how you go broke.
You know, if you get into closing before
you're ready, before you even know how
to set.
>> You got any more good reels you think?
>> No, I think that was good. That was
good.
>> Mhm, trying to think if there's any
another good hook.
>> Um
>> Um did you ask like
you know, like
for these young guys that are trying to
get into business, why should they
consider door-to-door?
>> Yeah. I I got two good ones. Um
How important is the market for solar?
Sorry. How important is the city that
you're in if you're going to sell solar?
>> Uh that's a hard question. The reality
is if the city's that important, then
you're not focusing on your inputs and
your what you're doing is you're having
a victim mentality. You're taking the
responsibility from yourself to get
those results. That being said, I do
think there's some markets you can sell
in in America that are kind of immoral.
You know, like you're selling it. People
will just buy cuz it's it's new over
there and they'll say yes. But if you do
the math, they're not actually saving
any money.
>> [laughter]
>> So I'd rather sell in a harder market
where I know people are saving money and
just I know it might take me 30 hours
instead of 15 hours, but I know I'm
going to snowball with that cuz my
customers are actually going to be happy
rather than go to some market that's a
lay me down market, but half your
customers you're scamming, so you
actually can't stay there and and work
long term.
>> Right.
>> Plus, karma always comes around, you
know? It's always going to get you.
>> Hold on, Mormons don't believe karma.
But um
>> [laughter]
>> Okay, last one.
>> That's crazy.
>> That is a Hindu belief. Um
>> [laughter]
>> Okay.
Uh last one Okay, what did you Oh, young
guys.
So if you're a young guy who's trying to
build a career and make some money, why
do you think door-to-door is the best?
>> So door-to-door is the best because it's
the hardest, right? Like when you just
freaking get out there in the market, no
excuses, and get on the doors and deal
with rejection, you're going to learn
far faster than these guys that are like
trying to do it in their mom's basement.
They're trying to like grind in the
office with their buddies. They're
distracted. They're trying to like, you
know, life insurance. They really can
only grind 4 hours a day. Getting
yourself in market, get yourself away
from your mom and your friends and your
girlfriend, and just freaking work 70
hours a week on the doors. It's free
leads, so there's no consequence to
burning the leads. So you That's
probably the biggest thing. Even life
insurance, you need money to start. You
need You got to get the leads. There's
no investment here. Just get out, start
your leads, burn your leads, learn those
lessons, and then handle rejection
face-to-face cuz eventually that's going
to be the the only thing left in sales,
right? Is face-to-face communication.
You can have AI do everything else
pretty soon.
>> Yeah. It's just hustle.
All right, so what I'm going to do is
just now
I don't think any of those fit in the
podcast. They're all just like so
random, but I think
they can absolutely be used for reels
and everything else. Um and ads, too.
When you start running ads and
testimonials. So, what I'm going to do
is just tie in the podcast. I'm saying
this for the editor, too. Just tie the
podcast in from basically the last
theological topic and tie it all
together like telling them to go to
your profile for solar and stuff like
that.
>> Okay.
>> Cuz the people like who came for a whole
Mormon thing for an hour and a half are
like, "What the heck are we talking
about?
>> [laughter]
>> We're talking about
solar making 40 grand? Like, what are we
>> Why are we just like riffing questions
here?
>> Yeah, like [laughter] what is going on
right now?
Okay. So, I'm going to make it natural.
Um
Yeah, I don't even remember where it
ended, but I'll just kind of create an
ending.
Well, bro, I got to just say like from
one entrepreneur to another who's, you
know, obviously we're both very
convicted in our faith and everything
else. I respect like
you coming on and sharing what you got
and getting hammered by this guy and,
you know, hearing [laughter] hearing
other things. But, you know, it's funny
to me because
uh
we're both we're all all of us are
entrepreneurs and faith obviously guides
what we do and creates, you know,
uh our decision-making for our
businesses. We've all got kids and all
that stuff, but um
you know, as we wrap up, a lot of people
don't even know what you do. You built
an amazing solar company. You guys did
like 8 million bucks last year and
you've got this mastermind for other
guys who are trying to build their solar
business and all that good stuff. So,
you know, I want those who have listened
to be able to go and follow you and find
you for those different things. So,
where should they go and and kind of
give a 1-minute explanation of what you
actually do.
Cuz you don't get paid to debate so
Mormonism.
>> [laughter]
>> Unless you want to pay me.
I'm open. My DMs are open.
My Instagram's Thomas Abram Davenport.
So, I I put out the most stuff there. I
do have a YouTube channel. Um I don't do
a lot, but I do go into more depth. You
know, I got some 25, 30-minute videos.
Even in my training, my door-to-door
trainings, and just talking about like
what our plans are, what's going on in
my life. Um, but yeah, on my Instagram
page, you click a link there if you want
to be a rep, we can have that
conversation. Um, my main focus right
now is helping other smaller EPCs,
dealers, guys doing like 10 to 50, maybe
100 million, setting them up with ways
to get their failed credits through,
setting up with ways to pay their reps
at NTP.
>> Yep.
>> And, um, setting up with the right
financing tools to get the lowest
possible monthly payments for their
customers. Typically with my tools,
we're able to match like SunRun's PPA
pricing, but with no escalator. So, same
amount of panels, same amount of
batteries, 250 bucks a month, if you're
with SunRun, it'll go up 3 and 1/2%
forever, compounding.
>> Yep.
>> If you're with us, it's locked in at
250, it never goes up. And you're going
to own it at the end, rather than just
lease it forever. That's great.
>> So, go to your Instagram. We'll link to
that down below. So, guys, go check it
out. If you are, you know, especially if
you're listening to this, and
you know, you're a young guy, young girl
looking for an opportunity in a career,
I mean, I I can tell you door-to-door is
a huge opportunity. I mean, I know
people making 10, 20, 30, 40 thousand
dollars a month just knocking doors. Um,
and if, you know, you're a Mormon who
just got off their mission, well, you're
ready to go. Just go straight into it
and get after it. So, um, go check Tom's
Instagram below. We will link to it.
And, uh, you know, if you enjoyed this
podcast, make sure you're subscribed,
and we'll catch you on the next one.
Peace.
