Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
NIGHT. All day,
>> man. Good to see you. [music]
>> It's good to be here.
>> I like your shirt.
>> I appreciate it.
>> Professor Finesser. Is that your
Professor Finesser line?
>> This is one of my designs of my uh
Professor Finesser line. Got the cross
guard there.
>> I like it.
>> Little dope.
>> We got a couple different symbols.
Something that I'm building up. I want
to get out to the people.
>> It's a cool nickname.
>> It's uh it's unique for sure. It's It
came about a funny way, but I like it.
It's the mantra that it brings to the
fight game and to who I am is is
perfect.
>> Well, it's finesse and you fight with a
lot of finesse, you know. Um so, we
should start from your UFC debut because
uh that was when you really burst onto
the scene. You fought this guy Malcolm
Wellmaker who's a killer, vicious
knockout puncher and had a ton of hype
behind him because of his performance.
Was it the Contender Series where you
had the big performance?
>> Uh it was all three of them.
>> Contender Series. He knocked that dude
out flat and then uh
>> I don't remember who it was second, but
then it was Chris Moutino was the third
one
>> that that he knocked out like that.
>> And um you put on a show, man, and
nobody had heard of you. And that's one
of the craziest things about this sport
is that there can be a guy like you
that's learning and growing on in the
shadows and then they get the call and
on I think it was two days notice.
>> Yeah.
>> So two days notice you fought above your
weight cuz you're bantamweight normally
and you fought a featherweight and dude
you just it wasn't just that you fought
a guy who was this vicious striker. It
was the calmness and the technique and
the smoothness of it all that was so
impressive. And I was like, "This guy's
different." Like you, the way you fight
is very intelligent. And I love that. I
love watching a guy who's just all
technique and and movement. And you're
you're the epitome of that.
>> Ah, I appreciate it. Um, that's
something I pride myself on. That's I
think
maybe it's because I've I've delved into
more of a boxing realm with perfecting
the striking and and really focusing on
um that that technical aspect, that
style. But yeah, it's to me to watch
guys go in there and just brawl it out
and say uh you know, let's see who can
take more punches before the other guy
drops is is just silly to me. It's it's
like you said, I like to fight with
finesse. I like to hit and not get hit
and champions don't take return fire.
So, um I hope to have a lot of longevity
with this game and uh yeah, that's why I
fight that way.
>> That is the formula for longevity. I was
having a conversation with Fedor, the
guy who was sitting next to us, who's uh
one of the best pool players in the
world, and he's getting we just got back
from ways to well, so shout out to
Brighgam and all the people at Ways to
Well for taking care of us. Um, but he
uh and I were talking about fighters and
about it's very similar to I think
everything whether it's pool or golf or
and there's the people that really focus
on technique and fundamentals and and
really objectively look at what they're
doing and refine it. And we were talking
about guys who just stand in front of
each other and blast each other. I'm
like, look, the crowd will cheer. They
will love to see you, but your career
will be shorter. And the end will be
bad.
>> The end will be bad and and then you'll
probably fight past the time where you
should and no one's going to stop you.
They're going to maybe you have one or
two close friends that'll tell you when
are you going to hang them up, but a lot
of coaches let guys fight way too long.
And I think the organization lets guys
fight way too long. There's a few guys
that in the past at least I' I've see
them on the lineup in a upcoming fight.
I'm like, "Oh god." And then I see who
he's fighting. I'm like, "Oh god."
>> Yeah. like I don't want to see this guy
take any more punishment. I don't, you
know, enough is enough. And those styles
of just face first just attacking. Boy,
the audience loves you. And that's a
trap,
>> right?
>> That is a real trap.
>> Yeah. I mean, 100%. And I think that's
it's almost a little frustrating that
the like general public gives that kind
of energy to that kind of a match. Sure,
I get it. It's exciting. You want to see
blood spill. like people just really
enjoy the chaos of all that and all the
movement and the energy that goes into
it. But yeah, you're you're foregoing
that whole technical aspect like the
perfection of controlling the dance from
the beginning to the end and everything
in between, you know, it's and it's
almost just like a like an educated
street brawl. You're getting in there
and just swinging and going crazy. And
to me, that's not what martial arts is.
I mean, it's it literally is the the
chase of perfection to it of, you know,
like the the hit and don't get hit. That
is the art of of boxing, but the art of
striking and martial arts. You know, you
want to be Yeah. near near perfect in
the way you engage in this is land the
damage and be able to cut those angles,
move your head, pull out the distance,
and not take any of that in return. And
uh yeah, a lot of guys get get cheered
on initially and so it's unfortunate
that um maybe it's not unfortunate, but
you just you just see it a lot that
yeah, those guys get hyped up off the
beginning and then all the other things
happen like you said.
>> Well, I mean look, they are exciting. I
love when guys fight like that cuz it's
just crazy to watch, but I have to set
aside the rational part of my brain that
says this is not smart. It's not a good
thing for them, right?
>> And this is there's no future in this.
Eventually, it's going to catch up to
you.
>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, if I watch
these guys, you know, get after it, like
Roman Puga versus uh his opponent on the
Dana White Contender Series this last
Tuesday, I believe it was.
>> Oh, that was crazy,
>> dude. I mean, I've trained with Roman a
little bit here and there. He's from the
same area as me. And uh yeah, the guys
the guy's very skillful, but at the end
of the day, both those guys walked out
of there just busted up. I mean, they
went straight to the hospital. and it's
fantastic to watch. But from a fighter
perspective, at least from someone who's
engaging in this on the same level as
they are, yeah, I uh I don't know,
that's why I like, you know, a little
bit more of that precise style with the
boxing specifically. I guess I've really
drawn a lot of aspects from it.
>> Oh, for sure. I mean, there's there's an
art to like a fighter that fights with
style and a a fighter that fights with
finesse. Like I always go to Izzy in his
prime, Adisana in his prime when when he
was just styling on dudes. I mean it was
a beautiful thing to watch. It was it
was it was like a dance. It was almost
like he was coordinating them, you know?
He was moving them into his strikes and
everything was like faints. They were
all like very specific to gauge
reactions and he'd put it all into the
computer and the next thing you know
he's tuning you up,
>> right? Yeah. I mean, uh, he's dancing
his way out.
>> Yeah.
>> Into the octagon and then he's dancing
in there, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's, um,
>> and I think the other thing that the
general public doesn't understand about
this game is that it's a smart man's
game.
>> Yes.
>> It's not a tough man's game.
>> Well, that's one of the reasons why I
wanted to talk to you because I've seen
a lot of your quotes online. I've seen
you talk. You're obviously a thoughtful
person and I think you have to be to
have that kind of a style because it
does take a lot of thinking. It takes a
lot of like what you're doing in there
by constantly overloading overloading
your opponent's nervous system with
movement and and and constant counters
and being like right out of range but
then right in range and then right out
of range there's a lot of intelligence
involved in that. And for someone like
me who really loves the art of it, I
love watching a guy like you fight
because I really wish young fighters
would emulate people like you. Young
fighters would see a guy like that like
that's what I want to fight like. I
don't want to be this guy who goes in
there and the end of my career, my face
is just a road map of scars and I got
CTE, but boy, people remember back in
the day when I knocked that guy out or
when we had this fight of the night and
>> Yeah. Yeah. And um it's taken a lot of
experience, a lot of growth, a lot of
seeing different things cuz when I was a
wrestler, it was the Iowa style of
wrestling that I emulated and that I
hope to emulate, which is it's just get
in your face. It's break you down, break
your spirit, break you physically, just
completely wipe you out with just
outstanding pressure, you know. And I
think I suffered with the finesse, with
a little bit of the technicality of of
setting things up and being smooth
because I was just clubbing on your
head, snapping people down, going going.
And I I've refined that. I've I've
pulled back from that almost almost too
much, I would say, to where if I'm if
I'm striking with someone, I don't even
want to engage in like a battle of
physicality. These guys try to push and
move and get up and I'm like, you know,
I'll sit and I'll dance and I'll roll up
and I'll I'll shut them down real quick
and I'm steering them off and I'm
throwing really quick and they try to
get physical where they're really trying
to make it, you know, a high pace and
and and
just more physical. I don't want to
engage with that at all. I want to steer
from beginning to the end. I want to
keep my heart rate as low as possible. I
want to land shots and then I want to be
back to sitting and and like you said,
covering a distance, controlling
everything where I can sit, I can take
my breath and I can see what's coming
next and then I can move accordingly.
And so, you know, after being out for a
little bit of time, I'm now even
elevated another um yeah, to to another
greater extent in my own mind that I'm
now starting to combine the two things
to where before I I wouldn't say I shied
away from it. You know, I'm I'm a tough
guy. if if we want to get physical and
if it needs to go to that, I'm there all
day, you know, don't get me wrong with
that. But, um, I'm I'm finding that
middle ground where I was I was too much
of that Iowa style without the finesse.
Now, I was trying to be all skillful,
all finesse, dance around the Muhammad
Ali shuffle, throw that flicker jab, be
out of range, you know, and and not want
to engage in the physicality too much.
And now I've elevated once again to
where I'm finding that perfect middle
ground that you know my I'm letting my
ego go in the gym to where if we do get
into that physicality or someone gets me
with something, if it doesn't look
perfect, I'm not sitting there thinking,
"Oh, I need to look perfect and and
avoid these things." Now I'm just
sending it and getting after it. So
yeah, it's it's an ever evolving game
and uh I'm just getting better all the
time with everything. So you'll never
see me go in there and brawl anybody,
but you'll see less hesitation. you'll
see uh more precise shots and then all
the other finesse will always be there.
>> Well, it is a constant work in progress,
right? And I think that's one of the
more interesting things about MMA is
that you see a fighter when they first
start fighting in the UFC and then you
see as fights go on, they get more
fights, they get more confidence, they
get more experience, and they also get
significantly better. You know, it's
it's kind of rare that you see athletes
in a sport, generally speaking, when
they get to a certain professional
level, they're kind of already at their
peak and they might get a little better,
but in MMA in particular, you see
dramatic improvement in fighters over
the course of four or five years,
especially if they have good management
and good training.
>> And one of the things that you're
talking about is like letting your ego
go in the gym. That that is so
important. It's so important to
recognize that training is for learning.
It's not you're not trying to win every
training session. You're not trying to
win fights. You're trying to get better
at winning actual fights. And sometimes
getting better at winning actual fights
is addressing whatever weird weaknesses
or weird places where you're not as
comfortable and getting comfortable
there. And the best way to do that is to
just force yourself into those
situations.
>> Yeah, 100%.
>> It's hard to do though because guys want
to be dominant. They want to, you know,
you don't want to lose a training
session. You don't want to give, you
know, this guy that you're sparring with
the impression that he can kick your
ass,
>> right? So, you want to get it back on
them, but sometimes it's smart to not.
>> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm I'm over there
uh the Rola Brothers are training over
there at CSW with Eric Pollston right
now, and Yeah, it's like
>> those guys are phenomenal.
>> Yeah, they're the best in the world at
what they do.
>> They're so fun to watch. Those guys
could put jiu-jitsu on the map.
>> Oh, yeah. Cuz the Routollo brothers,
like when they do jiu-jitsu, it is like
this chaotic, exciting, like very
kinetic, very technical
path to your neck,
>> right?
>> You know, that's what it is. It's just
this constant path to your neck,
>> dude. And they got these monkey arms
that it can just wrap around your neck
and get that dar choke from anywhere,
man. It's ridiculous.
>> Long arms are awesome.
>> Long arms are insane.
>> Such an advantage. Like Hodra Gracie had
that. A lot of guys have that. A lot of
like the best Dar guys. Hamzad has that,
>> right?
>> Those long armed guys. [ __ ] man.
>> Yeah. And then like you said, like their
their ability to
>> they they almost like enforce the chaos
because that's where they they thrive
at, you know, all that scramble
situation.
>> They're they're running doing crazy
jumps, like crazy sweep setups. Uh was
it Kate or Tai? I think I say it was Tai
when he ran and he bounced off the cage
or the ropes and he runs back in and
double legs like the dude. Like it's
like a WWE match, you know? They're like
thriving off of that chaotic energy.
Scrambles. Yeah, they they they're so
good in scrambles, you know, and it's
really interesting watching it. Is it
Tai that's doing one FC that is doing
MMA fights now?
>> They're both fighting.
>> They're both fighting now.
>> And that's it's going to be exciting to
have those guys enter into the UFC
someday. Hopefully they will. Yeah,
>> cuz uh
>> Oh, for sure. That they're they're just
freak athletes, you know? It's something
that they've been around since they were
super super young. And uh yeah, I mean
even even their striking, you know, it's
not super technical quite yet. They're
very brand new in it, but they're just
they got long reach. They're very
methodical. They're athletic. They
understand distances from the jiu-jitsu
world of setting up takedowns and, you
know, closing closing that distance. So,
um, but yeah, what I was saying is like
going with that kind of a guy, it's like
the last thing I want to do is engage in
like a grappling position with them in
the jiu-jitsu or in the MMA. And uh, but
it's like, yeah, the more I do that, I'm
only going to get better at doing that
kind of stuff, you know,
>> kill the ego, engage full headon into
what you're bad at. That's the only way
to get good at anything.
>> Another great thing about those guys is
they're totally natural. And in the
jiu-jitsu world, that's rare,
>> right?
>> That's really rare. Jiu-jitsu is a dirty
sport, man.
>> Yeah.
>> Or, you know, I mean, is it dirty if
everyone's doing it? No. Let me say it
this way. It's an enhanced sport,
>> right?
>> For the most part, the elite guys are on
some Brazilian supplements.
>> Yeah. It's It's legal, but they're all
doing it. Yeah. They're all juiced up.
So,
>> I mean, it's kind of legal. Like Abu
Dhabi doesn't test. A lot of places
don't test, right? So it's like and you
see these guys and there's no way some
of them and you know kudos to guys like
Gordon like Gordon Ryan who talks very
openly about it. He's like everybody's
on performance-enhancing drugs. Why
would I be on performance-enhancing
drugs? My goal is to be the absolute
best that I could be period.
>> Right? You know, and the idea that the
only reason why he's so good is because
of steroids is also equally ridiculous
because when he was younger and when he
was much smaller, he was winning
tournaments left and right and beating
world champions,
>> right?
>> And he was totally natural.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's there's no way you
can say someone like Gordon Ryan isn't
the highest prowess of skill set for
jiu-jitsu, you know, like his technical
technicality and his abilities there are
unquestionable. Yeah. Yeah. What I mean,
what are you going to do if everybody
else is is on that level? You're now at
a deficit if you're not taking it. So,
um
>> there's a few guys that don't. Um
>> and and maybe I don't know. Obviously,
there's maybe some strength skill or
strength deficit there, but
that's that's why again going back to my
style and and what I like to do, like
the technicality and having that
ability, there's there's there's just so
many aspects to everything. But if
you're that much more technical than
someone, then that can negate size to
some extent. That can negate
>> um strength to some extent. Like there's
there's there's a lot of equalizers
there. Now,
>> you know, on the on the opposite end,
someone who's got that one hit or
quitter, they could be less technical,
but they're always dangerous. If they
hit you one time and you go to sleep,
then all sins are forgiven. They could
have got beat up for two rounds straight
and they knock you out. That's all the
the crowd remembers. So, uh, there's a
there's a lot that goes into it. But if
you're that much more, you know,
skilled in your technicality, that's
that's you're going to to me that's the
best you can do. That's that's what
you're chasing.
>> For sure. The really dangerous guys are
the guys who have that one hit or
quitter power and then they get real
technical.
>> Yeah.
>> Those are the scary guys.
>> Oh, for sure. I mean,
>> yeah,
>> that's then now you have it all. You
know, that's that
>> often not the case though. That's what's
interesting is power can be a curse as
can talent. Talent can be a a curse too
because you don't work as hard because
you [ __ ] everybody up in the gym and so
you don't show up for practice
sometimes. You still [ __ ] these guys up.
They're just not on your level
physically or for whatever reason.
>> Yeah.
>> And then there's guys that have that
power that always just rely on that
power and never really develop the
fundamentals. And so like Deontay Wilder
is a great example of that. Deontay
Wilder, who I think is the greatest one
punch knockout artist in the history of
the heavyweight division. That [ __ ]
guy.
>> Whoa. And not a big guy.
>> Yeah.
>> But his power is nuts. And Teddy Atlas
has the greatest uh definition of it,
description of it. He said it's the
great eraser. Any mistakes he makes, one
shot erases them all.
>> Yeah,
>> it's so true.
>> Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's uh I agree. I mean,
>> but could you imagine if Deontay could
move like Tyson Fury,
>> right?
>> If Deontay could box like Tyson Fury
with also with that crazy insane power.
>> Yeah, it's it's game over for anybody.
>> It's game over for everybody in front of
that guy. Not a single person, you know.
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States audience. Yeah, if he could move
like us, I mean, it's a tall [ __ ]
order because no one can move like Usyk
other than Usyk, but imagine if he could
move like Usyk,
>> right?
>> You know, I mean, N has that crazy stop.
Bang. One shot, you're in another
[ __ ] dimension.
>> Yeah. And that's, you know, there's and
then
um that's that's obviously like at a
personal level like it some people are
blessed with that talent like you said
or a skill set or athleticism.
>> Well, the power thing is just it seems
like it's a gift.
>> Yeah. No, it is. I mean I mean I think
it was for us I was talking about Connor
and he was talking about how the the
muscles connect to the muscle head
differently. It's like a long or short
once and then you either have like that
real explosive power but then your your
cardio suffers. Whatever it is, he's
going into it. It's a gift. I mean, can
you develop it to some extent? Yeah, of
course. Now,
the other thing with with punching, with
with striking is it's not always like
power that knocks people out. It's the
shot that you don't see coming that
knocks you out.
>> Sure.
>> You know, and so
>> it you know, then you can kind of
equalize on on that playing field, I
suppose, to some extent. If you're
getting people guessing, you're getting
people fainting, you're hitting them
with shots that they're not seeing, then
you're going to get similar, you know,
knockout finishes like that.
>> There's a lot of guys that knock a lot
of people out that don't have one punch
power for sure. Max Holloway is a great
example of that. Like Max has never,
even though he has knocked guys out with
one shot, it's generally like after a
bunch of damage,
>> right?
>> But I mean, Max talked about it pretty
openly about guys like Connor, Jose
Aldo, and he's like they just get tired
quicker because of the speed and power.
They're so explosive and it's so much
energy to try to close the distance that
quick and land those big nuclear bomb
shots, but you only have a few of those
in a whole fight.
>> Yeah, I I feel like uh Max's
um perspective on those two guys may be
construed just because of I mean he
fought Connor the first time I guess
when Connor was in his prime, you know,
and he was coming up.
>> It was almost before his prime.
>> It was it was on that rise.
>> They were both kids. I think Max was 20
at the time. Yeah, he was I think he was
like the youngest UFC USC fighter at
that time or something close to.
>> He was a different human back then
>> for sure. But I just think so like cuz
Conor's cardio is something that I have
noticed.
It wasn't it wasn't super poor like
initially when he was fighting at 145. I
mean to me he never like Chad Mendes
they had a lot of grappling exchanges.
Chad took him down. Chad hit him with
shots. you know, Connor just stayed
nice, calm, cool, and collected and uh
he he got back to the striking where he
could do that, but to me, he never was
like gassed out. But then you watch the
second Diaz fight and he's running
around the cage for five rounds. Now
he's gone up in a weight class. So then
it goes back to, you know, what's his
what's his training regimen look like?
He's he's not cutting as much weight, so
he doesn't have to be as much as
disciplined. His diet changes.
>> There's a lot of aspects. So, like I
don't know. Con that the Connor one was
was weird to me just because I saw I saw
a change in it when he was at 145. He he
didn't have poor cardio. As soon as he
left that weight class, his cardio
waned. And then Jose Aldo, I mean, that
guy was undefeated for what, 10 years, a
champion for 10 years, and you never saw
him get tired. And I never saw him get
tired. Yeah, Max fought him at a certain
point when he's a little bit older, this
and that. So, I don't know. Maybe that's
just Max's perspective on that. I'm not
saying Max is incorrect in what he's
saying, but um
I don't know. There's there's to me
there's just I haven't um pinpointed
exactly what's the right and wrong way
to do everything just because there's so
many variables especially in MMA. I
mean, we were kind of discussing a
little bit earlier is it's not just
solely that you have like good cardio
that allows you to
continue to perform in that fight.
There's another aspect of how calm,
cool, and collected you can be because,
you know, like we were talking hitting
the mids and something, if you're real
tense and you're just trying to kill
them, yeah, you're going to burn
yourself out. But if you're fast and
snappy, you're producing just as much,
if not more power, and now you're being
more efficient with it, you know? And
so, um, I don't know. The cardio one is
is a is a funky one in combat sports to
me.
>> It really is. But I think if you look at
Jose Aldo, Jose Aldo when he was on top,
when he was the king,
>> he was wrecking everybody and he was the
hammer most of the time and he was so
athletic and so fast and had some of the
best leg kicks we had ever seen. Like
the Uriah Faber fight, how [ __ ] tough
is Uriah Faber? Yeah,
>> cuz like that guy, many, many, many
humans would have been stopped a long
time ago just from those leg kicks. And
Uriah just kept trying to the very last
second of the even though he was way
behind the scorecards, never folded up
his tent, he was still trying. But Aldo
wasn't the nail. You know what I'm
saying? Like there was there was very
few moments in a fight where someone had
really started overwhelming him. And one
of the things that Max has always been
so good at is knowing when to hit the
gas and knowing when to just slowly ramp
up the pressure. And you see guys start
to fade. And Max is a cardio [ __ ]
machine. I mean, super disciplined guy,
right?
>> And great camp. Those guys in Hawaii
really prepare him well. He is always
like 100. It's like the fight with Gachi
fighting in the fifth round of a [ __ ]
crazy chaotic war just at the same exact
pace he was fighting in the first round,
>> right?
>> So, it's the experience of knowing what
your body can do, when you can hit the
gas, when you need to back off, when to
move, when not to, and when you feel
your opponent start to fade a little
bit. You see the mouth being open a
little bit more. You see the movement
looks a little sloppier,
>> right? Oh, 100%. That's Yeah. Knowing
when to rest is is a big aspect of that
as well because you go and you that's
why a lot of the training you do is is
that short burst. You know, you hit like
your sprints. Um you know, you might
maybe hit the straightaway on on the
track and then you jog and maintain cuz
in a fight you're never completely
resting. You're always moving a little
bit. Um so yeah, I mean that's that's a
huge thing. the experience. I think his
his style and and just what he's
created, like you said, in his camp is
is a high output, high volume
individual. So, you know, his body's
probably um
become used to that and that's that's
how he performs normally.
>> Yeah, I was shocked that Connor wanted
to fight him in his first fight back
after years off. I mean, five years is a
long time to not fight. And then to come
back and fight a guy like Max who's been
constantly fighting the best guys in the
world and knowing that Max is a guy who
never fades and he's in very diff gotten
him out of there is Ilia
>> and you know Ilia caught Max when Max
went down from 55 down to 45 which I
think was a a mistake. He was so big. He
got so big to get up to 55 to fight
Justin and he did it over a long period
of time. Put a lot of mass on and then
you essentially you're starving yourself
to get down to 45 again. Your body's
going to be weak no matter what you do.
It's not like he was when he was
fighting at 45. He maintained a lower
weight class, knew exactly when to cut
and would make it no problem each time.
That last cut to 45 was a nightmare. It
was a horror show. And so when he got in
there with Ilia and then you're fighting
El Matador, that [ __ ] you want
to talk about technique, right?
>> Technique and his strike, the smoothness
and efficiency and the one punch. Go
night power.
>> I mean, that guy has it above. Who the
[ __ ] did that to Charles Olivera the way
that guy did? Yeah.
>> I mean, that's nuts. He's got And up at
55 when Oliver is a big 55, too.
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, him moving up to 55.
Those are some those are some big dogs
right there. big. Especially when you
look at him and Justin. When him and
Justin were like facing off each other,
I'm like, that's a way bigger dude.
>> Like Justin's bigger than me and Ilia is
smaller than me. When I stand next to
two of them, like this is crazy that
Ilia has the kind of power that he's
just wrecking guys even that are way
bigger than him,
>> right? Yeah. I mean, his his skill set
is is amazing combined with the power.
That's that's someone you talk about has
a skill set and the punching power, you
know, and encompasses both those things.
It's Yeah, he's he's got it all. I mean,
um and and the thing with him, too, is
he's just so he's so calm, cool, and
collected. I think that's also
something. I mean, I I do a lot of like
comparison from
from Muay Thai boxing to the MMA world
because, you know, I'm I'm in MMA, so I
understand that there's so many
different aspects to it where like
someone could take you down and that's
going to affect your your striking skill
set. You know, if you got someone who's
real dumb wrestler and you're and you're
way better striker, if you're sitting
there and worried about them taking you
down and smothering you, your striking
goes out the the window a little bit
because now you have a whole different
set of weapons that you're worrying
about. Um
>> and you can get caught easier.
>> Yeah. Especially if you're like just
loading up on them. Yeah. You're going
to get ducked under and double egged and
and then taken down. And that's that's
the whole thing. But um
I forgot where we even started this
train of thought. But uh yeah, I mean I
think it's his his collectness too, but
I was I was saying there's comparisons
to all these and that's what like boxing
you see these guys. They might have a
couple more rounds, but they come out
and like the first round, maybe uh the
second round is is a feeling out round.
you know, it's it's a slow
buildup where they're they're collecting
data, they're setting traps, they're
they're doing a lot of that. And you see
that in MMA, just not at the same level.
Obviously, there's a there's a greater
skill set. There's more weapons to worry
about. It is different. Um, but I don't
know. I obviously I'm reaching for peak
perfection with everything. So, if we're
coming and we're looking at distance
control, I think the boxers do it
better. you know, if we're looking at
setting up faints and and working off a
jab, especially, I think that's I think
that's the most frustrating thing when I
watch MMA or UFC fights and watch the
majority of the guys never never ever
use a jab and it's always just this big
overhand right. I'm like,
>> like what are you doing? Like you have
two hands like you have the jab, set it
up. Now, I'm not saying that's
everybody, but I see I see many people
doing that. But that going back to
Taporia, that's one thing that he does
so well is he's a shorter guy. He sits
back on that back foot. He's throwing
that jab. He's he's understanding your
distance control so he can get in and
then that's where he's got that power
and he lets that go.
>> It's going to be interesting to see how
he rebounds because that was a uh a lot
of damage. He two fractured orbitals,
you know, they had to stop the fight in
between rounds.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh he took big punches from a guy
who's got [ __ ] rocks in his hands.
>> Yeah. I mean, Justin can crack.
>> He Well, they call him what, the most
violent most violent in the in the game,
and I think that stands true. Uh, yeah,
that's that's a hard one to bounce back
from. It's going to take extra time of
him really letting all his injuries heal
and and be fully recovered before he
even thinks about sparring again, you
know, ever getting touched in the face
again.
>> Yeah, I don't know where he's at now,
you know. Um, but I know that he's still
recovering and it'll be a while. I mean,
the fight was in June. We're doing this
right now. It's August 30th. Was it 30th
or 31st?
>> 31st. Yeah.
>> 31st.
>> So, you know, he's had a couple of
months, but you know, that he probably
needs like six months before he's even
sparring again.
>> Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's
going to take some time. It's going to
take some time. I mean, the thing that I
really hate to see is when you guys you
have undefeated individuals like that
who have gone undefeated their whole
career, feel invincible, and then it
sometimes that one takes them off their
pedestal, you know, like Jos Aldo's a
great example of that of I mean, and he
came back and he fought tough, but he
just never was the same, right?
>> He was never that untouchable. Um,
you know, there's probably many people
that I can touch back on, but yeah, hope
I think hopefully that's that's the main
thing that he's going to need is that
that mental um indestructibility and to
come back and just be like, I'm the same
person. That one fight doesn't change
anything and I'm ready to go do it
again.
>> Well, he's a very mentally strong guy
and I think he will bounce back in that
regard. It's just there's also the just
the reality of how much damage and only
he knows how much damage he actually
took in that fight. Yeah.
>> You know how that affects him as well
because you know as well as anybody that
there's only a few of those kind of
fights that you could have in your
career and you got to be very careful
how you recover from those. And uh a lot
of fighters, a lot of great fighters
have made a mistake of coming back too
soon. Uh Vulcganowski is one that I
point to all the time who's arguably the
greatest featherweight of all time. He
is one of the most masterful fighters in
the game. He took a short short notice
fight with uh Islam uh in the rematch
and got head kicked and then I think it
was only four months later that he was
fighting Ilia. And that is crazy. That's
a crazy thing to do. He took a full head
kick, shinned the dome, gets KO'ed, and
then four months later he's fighting the
[ __ ] scariest challenger that he's
ever had to face,
>> right? Yeah. 100%. You you can't rush
back into those things. I mean,
especially when you're that cemented,
you don't really need to rush back into
it, right? You know, you you have your
legacy behind you.
>> Well, you shouldn't have even taken that
fight with Islam. There's no way you
should take a world championship fight
when you're hanging out with your
buddies, drinking beer, you know, eating
fish and chips or whatever the [ __ ] he
was doing. And then
>> hunting with Vul over there, you know,
>> he's having a good time, but he wasn't
in training. He said there's no way he
was in train. He didn't look like he was
in training physically. Like his body
didn't look the same. did not like he
looked out of shape, but he definitely
looked smoother and less ripped than he
usually does.
>> There's a there's a difference to being
in a two or three month fight camp of
day in day out, two, three practices a
day, the diet's set, the the mentality
is set versus I'm just training.
>> On the outside of that,
>> when you came in on two days notice to
fight Wellmaker, were you in training at
all? Like what was your scenario?
>> Uh I was doing uh food eating
championship training. was killing uh
double doubles and 3x3s. No, but with
that one, I was I was fortunate because
uh I I stayed strict pretty much year
round. So, I had fought fought in
January um at the beginning of the year
and then I was supposed to fight
multiple times and I just had I had two
or three opponents pull out and then I
fought November 7th for the title fight
for the A1 combat which was Lydia of the
weekend before. though. Fortunately, I
did I was even though people were
falling out, I I kept to the course. I
stayed strong. I stayed in a fight camp
mentality. That November 7th fight ended
up happening. So, I had a strong two
months. Now, still, even that one week
difference of going being in a fight
camp, and then I have a couple drinks at
the casino, I'm eating food. And I
thought to myself because January was it
was a similar thing where they said
February Australia
get ready, get your passport, let's look
into this, blah blah blah. You know, I
had a had a nice knockout finish there.
Um, but then yeah, just that one week of
being off of of eating whatever I wanted
to and just kind of doing whatever. I I
ran once. I showed up to sparring and
light touch sparred. Um, I had gone to
one other practice cuz in my mind I was
like, I need to be somewhat ready for
this. Like I can have I can have a week.
I've been in fight camp all year long. I
can have one week and then that's the
week that they call and say 48 hour
notice MSG 10 and0 undefeated Malcolm
Welmaker. You want it? And uh and then
of course I'm going to can't say no to
that one.
>> So you fought the weekend before the
Wmaker fight.
>> I fought November 7th. Yeah.
>> Wow. That's actually good.
>> If you didn't get hurt.
>> Yeah. Well, it was a minute and 30
seconds. I knocked him out in the first
round. So, it was it was to me it's just
the stars aligned. I mean,
>> don't you think it's also good that you
just had the experience like seven days
prior to the whole thing getting in the
cage, cage shuts, you just fought. So,
it's much more comfortable for you than
if you had like Connor taking five years
off. as elite as Connor is, double
champ, one of the greatest of all time
for that. Even a guy like that, you take
five years off and you could see like
what it did to him. It's like it [ __ ]
with his head.
>> Oh, yeah. You could you could see it. It
there wasn't the same Connor energy
going into it. Uh, of course, I I always
want a quick turnaround like after I
fight just for that very reason. I I I
cut the weight. I know what that's like.
I
warmed up in the back with all the
anticipation, you know, and that energy
flowing through my body. I walked out in
front of the crowd. They announced my
name. I got in there. I I actually
fought someone. So, yeah, if you have
that going for you, then that's Yeah,
it's way way better. For sure.
>> Yeah. The more active you can be, the
more comfortable you can be with the
experience as long as you're not getting
hurt. Yeah. Here's a stat that I was uh
reading about Izzy. Um and people forget
about this. when he was the champion, he
defended his title a lot, man. He was
the guy that they can go, "Hey, we need
someone to headline this card." And Izzy
would step in. And I think he fought
three time he defended the world title
three times in one year, which is crazy
cuz I don't think the middleweight title
since he's gone has even been contweight
fights have there even been for the
title since he's been gone. There's only
been a few fights. I think there's only
been
>> I mean there's Sean and and
>> and Drius Shawn and Drius two uh Drius
and Hamzot
>> and then Sean and Hamza
>> and Sean and Hamza I mean it might
literally be like maybe five fights
since he's lost the title and [ __ ] he
defended it more than anybody
>> right yeah which is crazy he defended it
three times in one year
>> and then you have
>> this you know huge span of time in
between defenses
>> but then there's a question of like What
is the when does it become a benefit and
when does it become a detriment? Like
when when you're fighting too many times
a year like the Morab Davish Willie
fight um one of the things that a lot of
people talked about after Per Yan beat
him in the rematch was what about the
strength of schedule? I mean Morab was
fighting constantly. He was fighting. He
fought so often and for so many years
that you got to think that at a certain
point in time maybe he's doing himself a
disservice by being so active.
>> Yeah. I mean, for sure. Um I don't know.
I mean, that's
it's something you got to feel out for
yourself, you know? It's it's something
that you have to know in your heart of
hearts. And
>> nobody else can tell you that. Your
coach can't be like, "No, you're
training really well these days. You're
super sharp. This and that." like if
something's off realistically,
you should be perfect going into your
fight, especially at a at a world
championship caliber. Um, it's just I
mean, I keep making these comparisons,
but it's another thing that I I go back
to with the boxing world is these guys
look at it as a business. Like, look at
Floyd Mayweather. Like, everything was
like he he made sure that the the cage
was his side. He picked the gloves. It
was certain people at certain times. And
there's there's some things to be said
about that, but it's a business mindset.
It's a very smart approach to it. You
know, I'm fighting when I'm ready. I'm
not fighting injured, which is which is
more of the main thing is like people go
in there with injuries and, you know,
get hurt or or lose even. It's like
that's that could be detrimental on your
record. I think the MMA guys are a
little bit more on the the tough side
instead of the the business side of
things where they'll they'll fight
anyone any time, which I mean, that's
how you got to be, but that's how you
build your team around you. you have a
team that tells you, hey, you know, this
time isn't isn't necessarily the best to
go into it and this and that and just
being a little bit smarter about your
schedule. It's like, yeah, us fighters
are going to sit there and go, I'll
fight anyone any given time. Um, doesn't
matter, but yeah, this is this is a
business. It's not just um fighting like
getting in that cage solely. It's it's a
lot of aspects that go into it. Don't
you think it's way more difficult to go
into a fight perfect in MMA than it is
in boxing, though? In boxing, it seems
like it's much easier to avoid injuries.
>> For sure. There's there's there's
differences. I just I reflect back to
that. I like the way that they conduct
themselves. I think it's it's and and
there's a lot that's to be said to that
cuz it's it's a longer standing sport.
>> There's been more time and experience
into it.
>> But yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, I I
was before this April fight, I the first
round of the day of sparring, I was just
going light with Callum Bisping for
literally one second and we moved around
and he's a heavyweight. We moved around.
He took me took he tried to take me
down. I stuffed. He took me down and I
kind of just sat with it because I
didn't want to get caught in any, you
know, knee tweaking positions or
anything cuz he's just so much heavier
than I am. And I sat into a butterfly,
which is typically how I would do that.
elevate the hips immediately and try to
make a scramble and my my meniscus just
popped instantly right then and there.
First round of the day, barely barely
had done anything. Barely started and it
wasn't even like a a crazy position, but
yeah, now I sustained injury. Now I
don't go against heavyweights anymore
because
>> you should never be doing that as a
bantamweight. You should not be sparring
with heavy.
>> Well, that's why I go the first day I'm
or not the first day but the first round
and I'm just trying to warm up. There's
there's a lot of things to be said. I I
grow and I and I learn and I get smarter
every time.
>> I think you should only spar with guys
that are reasonably close to your
weight, period.
>> 10 10 pounds is probably a maximum above
you. You know, you shouldn't be going
with anybody more than that.
>> Yeah, I get I get smarter with these
things. I I do dumb things and uh
>> I figure
for the for the most of my history, I've
had to learn the hard way with things.
So, uh I'm getting better at it. I'm
getting smarter. So, but like I said, it
was just a freak thing. It wasn't like
we were going crazy hard or anything
like it just was the first round I just
trying to move and and then some little
thing happened.
>> Uh it wasn't a full full tear but it
happened back in like Februaryish right
before that that April one. So leading
up to the Estabon fight it's like I
didn't grapple till the last maybe maybe
month of it maybe.
>> Oh so it was bothering you even before
that fight.
>> It was all the way up to it. I mean like
that's that's when it happened was the
April fight which was the Eston fight.
>> Wow. Wow. So yeah, it's it's very
difficult to avoid everything, you know,
like there's a lot of different things
that won't even seem like a detrimental
position, but yeah, you got grappling,
which can tweak all sorts of different
parts of the body. Uh a simple cut from
from striking can happen very easily. So
for sure, it's it's much more abundant
in the MMA world because there are more
weapons. There's a lot of variations of
things to watch out for. Um, but that
being said, I like to carry, like I
said, this is a smart man's game. I like
to carry a a level of of business-wise
and and smartwise to this. And that's so
though the
um exact functions may differ. It's it's
the mindset that I like to carry from
it.
>> Right. It's a Well, it what you said is
perfect that it's a long business.
Boxing's been around for a long time and
the really elite trainers, the re the
really elite coaches, they know how to
prepare their fighters and they know
what fights to take and when to take
them, right?
>> And unfortunately with the UFC, like
sometimes
you get a call like the Malcolm
Wellmaker fight, you know, and you're
like, "Oh [ __ ] it would have been nice
to get two months to prepare for
Malcolm, but I have two days, right?
>> And I just fought. [ __ ] it. Roll the
dice." And you also were coming out of
nowhere and I don't think a lot of
people had time to prepare for you cuz
as good as you are when you fought
Wellmaker when you fought uh how do you
say his name? Estavan. What is his
>> Raphael Estan?
>> Rav Estan. He was also undefeated and
super skillful. He was a really good
fighter and still is. But um to have
those two performances in a row, the way
you looked, you looked like a guy like
if you were
20 years ago, you would have been a
[ __ ] alien. Like no one had seen
anybody like you before. That's how much
this sport has grown just in 20 years.
If you go back to like Ultimate Fighter
season 1, there was [ __ ] nobody like
you. Nobody like you back then,
>> right? You know, it really wasn't until
Anderson burst onto the scene shortly
after that that we really got to see
that kind of elite level of striking.
>> Yeah. I mean,
>> yeah, talk about an alien for that time.
That was Anderson Silva. That's that's
one of the top to ever do it. There's
there's no question.
>> Oh my god. People forget because maybe
they see his later fights in his career,
>> but you go back and watch him when he
was in his prime. I remember when when
he fought Chris Leeben, and Chris Leeben
is a murderous puncher. like one of the
hardest punchers that's ever fought in
the UFC. He's he's one of those guys
that's got that [ __ ] god-given crack,
>> right?
>> And he's just such a warrior. I mean,
wades into the storm, you know,
>> but that style is tailorade for him. And
when I was looking at the odds, a friend
of mine was there. I go, "Bet the house
on the Brazilian." I go, "Bet the
house." I go, "Listen to me. This is a
[ __ ] dude. Just wait." because
that's when he really came into his own
uh over in Cage Rage
>> when he that's when he really became
Anderson Silva.
>> That was a yellow cage. Was that Cage?
Yes. That's when he did that
>> the the elbow. The crazy elbow.
>> Yeah. Tony Frricklin.
>> Yeah. What was the It was like a upkick.
Like a crescent up kick. Was that Pride
or was that the cage rage?
>> He was on the bottom and he whipped his
leg over the top. It wasn't like a
straight up kick. He He kind of like
brought it over. Oh, I don't remember
that one.
>> Yeah, I don't I don't recall either.
>> Who Who was he fighting?
>> I don't know. I'm not I'm not good at
names always.
>> So, in Pride, it was uh who was he
fighting here, Jamie?
>> Uh Japanese gentleman.
>> Y Nokami. Oh, Yushkami. This was Rumble
on the Rock. This is BJ Penn's
promotion. Look at that. Oh,
>> yeah. He's just doing things that like
>> you nobody had ever thought of at that
time.
>> He gets that right leg loose, ties his
hands up. Bow. That's crazy. And Okami
was a beast. And they fought again in
the UFC later and he he KO'ed Okami.
>> Yeah. Stuff like that. The elbow you're
talking about just like
>> just a pioneer for it. You know, it's
not like he's watching film. He's not
sitting on YouTube watching
>> people do these things prior. He's the
one that's coming up with this.
>> Yeah. This is the crazy elbow. You know
what the the funny story about this
elbow? He was training that and his
coach told him, "Stop doing that. You're
not going to do that." And
>> so he made his wife hold pillows at home
>> and he was [laughter] he was practicing
it at home. He was having her hold a
pillow and he was just working on the
mechanics of that elbow. It's like he
wanted to prove his coach wrong, right?
>> And he wanted to get the knockout with
that that technique
>> and lo and behold, he did it.
>> Well, he had some great fights over
there. Um particularly the um uh the Lee
Murray fight. Did you ever see that
fight?
>> Um probably I Murray is right. He's the
the British dude that
>> became a bank robber.
>> He was the bank robber. Correct. Yeah.
>> Biggest heist in UK history.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And that was a bad dude, too.
>> Oh, he was a bad mother.
>> Everybody was scared of that dude.
>> Well, that guy could crack. He was
another guy. Had crazy power and just a
vicious dude. Just an absolutely vicious
guy who was legitimate criminal.
>> Yeah, exactly. He had that like that
whole aura and persona to him.
>> Yeah. He was a real gangster.
>> Yeah. That that brings a little bit more
of like this, you know, I don't want to
say fear, but like, oh, who's this guy?
You know,
>> the [ __ ] guy was an elite fighter and
he was also a elite criminal,
>> right? [laughter] Yeah. He's
multi-talented.
>> I mean, that's something in a movie.
Like a guy like who's a top tier
criminal who also competes and wins in
the UFC,
>> right? Yeah.
>> And won by triangle. He beat uh Jorge
Rivera by triangle.
>> Yeah. And it's crazy. I know. And you
have Anderson come in and just demolish
this dude. Yeah.
>> Just wrecked him. And he wrecked him
with technique. And it was a lot of it
was leg kicks.
>> Yeah.
>> He just Anderson's Muay Thai was at such
a different level. It was so artistic.
>> Yeah. I think that's the perfect word to
describe that was artistic cuz just
beautiful the way he set things up. I
mean, he made elite guys look
>> very brand new in the cage. And uh
>> I I didn't see very many close fights
with him till later in his career.
>> Yeah, it's a later in his career thing.
And I always say that with fighters, you
really have to look at them when they
were at their highest RPM, whatever.
It's you generally it's only a few
years,
>> but that few years like judge them by
that. Judge them by those performances
when they were just on fire.
>> And I I tell people you have to always
go back and watch those Anderson fights
when he front kick Vtor in the face,
>> right?
>> First time anybody had ever won by
knockout with a front kick to the face
in the UFC. Now people do it all the
time,
>> right?
>> But I didn't even think that was a good
option. Like there's a video of and I
grew up kicking. There's a video of me
and Eddie Bravo. We're working with
those Bob one of those Bob dummies and
he's like, "What do you think about a
front kick to the face?" I'm like, "It's
better to the body. I mean, you could
land it to the face, but you know, I
don't really see very many guys do it.
It's much more wrong."
>> Yeah, [laughter]
>> it's perfect.
>> Just watch the Anderson Silva fight.
>> And everybody does it now. So many guys
get knockouts with a front kick to the
face because you don't see it coming
when it comes straight up the middle. If
everything's coming around and all a
sudden something comes straight up the
middle and catches the bottom of your
chin.
>> For sure. I I like um I I like that side
kick to the body to the liver, throwing
that heel in the liver. I think that's
>> more of a natural motion, but I have
been working with the front kicks. I
like them a lot. Uh especially with that
with the weight on the back leg a little
bit and especially with these calf
kicks, people are really trying to bear
down and throw the calf kick hard.
That's that's uh was going to be my
technique in my last one was when that
when that calf kick comes off the very
beginning because that's what Fa does is
comes out he control looks for his
distance and he bases down he throws
that calf kick almost every single time
against every opponent and I was like
you know especially because I was
planning on going there one-handed and I
was like I just going to pull this front
leg up front front kick to the face and
it's going to land. It's going to be
beautiful. But yeah, I started to work
that like you you put all that weight on
that back leg. This one comes up fast
and the one I like better, especially
with the boxing as I come down here is
uh kind of getting that lean forward and
you're stepping back and then when
people think your face is in range
forward, you just pull back and throw
that one straight up the middle
>> and you're talking off the front leg
>> off the back leg on this on the second
one. You're kind of basing out here and
you're you're stepping back onto the to
the back leg and when they open up like
they're going to throw something,
>> you lean back and throw it up the
middle.
>> Yeah. changing the distance there so
people don't expect it.
>> For the calf kick, you're just light on
the front leg and you're throwing it off
the front leg. Are you sliding forward?
Are you just picking it up and stabbing?
>> I just pick it up and stab it cuz they
got to close a little bit of distance to
get that calf.
>> Mhm.
>> That one's um you know, the kick is a
longer range, but that one you have to
come a little bit closer
>> for me to throw it appropriately. Some
people smack it with the the foot or
whatever it is. I don't like that. I
like that Dutch style almost like a
soccer kick. just you're you're raising
it straight up and that shin bone is
touching that soft calf. And so to do it
that way, I get a little bit closer
distance, but then that's where, you
know, you set it up and all the other
stuff. You be a little safer doing it
that way.
>> Yeah, the calf kick is interesting
because a lot of guys are kind of just
going straight up,
>> right?
>> You know, like you ever see Yukioza
fight?
>> He's one of my favorite guys to watch
fights. That's That's probably like the
perfect example of throwing a very um
deliberate and and technical calf kick
is how he does it.
>> He destroys people's legs. Destroys
them. And he's kicking up. He's kicking
up all the time. And there's no pivot.
And it's so fast.
>> It's so fast. And there's no tell. And
he's throwing it in every combination.
So he's hitting you with a jab. He's
inside low kicking you. The left hook,
he's outside low kicking you.
>> Yeah. He's smacking you from all the
different levels
>> constantly and taking out your base
every time. Every time you're close
enough, he's taking out your base every
time. Every time from all angles. I love
watching this guy fight. He does that
cool thing, too. Like what he just did.
Check out that. Watch that. They gave
him trouble for that cuz you're not
supposed to do that in kickboxing. See,
he does that. He hooks the guy's leg.
>> So, he throws like a halfspeed kick.
Show back it up again so you can see
that. He throws like a half speed kick,
holds it,
>> and then trips him.
>> My dad was actually just talking about
that one with me. That's That's very
clean technique.
But he is such a wild guy to watch
because of the damage that he does to
guy's legs.
>> So this is what I love about the
artistic aspect of it and the technical
aspect. When people figure out, okay,
what do you do when you're fighting a
guy like this? Well, Jonathan Hagerty
figured it out. It's constant switch
stances, constant knees to the body,
moving, jabbing, constant movement. You
never let him get set up for those, you
know, and he took a lot of leg kicks and
that, but he landed way more than he
took. and he won the decision against
Yozos. It was a big win, but it was also
like a blueprint. Like if people got to
see that fight, they see it. See you can
find that fight. Jonathan Hagerty and
Yuki Yoza.
>> He did a really good job of picking that
front leg up. That's And that's going
back to MMA is something that it's still
developing, but I don't see a lot of
guys defend the calf kick. I see a lot
of guys willingly eat them. Yes.
>> And it's like you do that with the
shining guards on, you could probably
spar all day and take calf kicks, you
know,
>> sort of
>> if they're landing clean, like really
clean. Yeah, you're gonna feel it. Yeah.
But for the most part, you pick the leg
up, you pull it back a little bit, it
doesn't land super flush. You could take
it with shin guards on. You take you
take one good one with no shinguards on,
it's a completely different game. It it
takes, you know, you're that leg away
from you.
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So, look how Jonathan is never
stationary. Constantly switching
stances. Look, I mean, literally
constantly and constant movement. And
then when you're thinking about the
legs, the jab, the step forward, knee,
everything is constant movement. There's
never a chance for Yoza to set up. And
nice spinning back kick to the body
there.
>> So close, too.
>> Yeah, I know. He's He's wicked, man.
This dude's wicked. But Hagerty figured
him out, man. Look at that outside low
kick on a hop. I mean, in constant
stance switches and that switch knee to
the body. Look, Yoza is looking for
those, man. If you you could only take
so many of them from this guy, too. He's
got [ __ ] stones for shins.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He's got no nerve endings on
anything below the knees.
>> It's really incredible, man. Watching
this fight is uh a real masterclass in
striking. And this one thing that I
always give credit to one for. I think
one has the absolute best strikers when
it comes to just pure striking, right?
And the exciting guys that they have
over there. Uh
>> Azadullah Iman Gazalia, have you seen
that guy fight?
>> Yeah.
>> He's my favorite. That I [ __ ] love
watching that guy fight. Like it's like
Jesus Christ, he's good.
>> And one of the guys that he trains with
just fought in the PFL, Mega Med. Did
you see that fight?
>> No.
>> I forget how to say his name. It's like
I think it's Abu or a I forget his name
but uh he put on a masterclass in
striking and he looked just like I uh
like uh Azadullah Iman Gazalia like the
way he was fighting like that style long
tall striker and these Dagistan guys man
you got Dagistan's got elite Muay Thai
too that's crazy. Yeah that's a dude uh
Amruu Amu Magamemedov. Well, speaking of
that,
>> show me a little bit of that cuz this
cat, he fights just like Acadullah, like
very similar. And I know they're from
the same place.
>> You talk about artistic, that's like
Zabarov
is another one.
>> Yes. Yeah. He and he was kind of the
first of those guys that you go, "Oh, I
I think of these guys as wrestlers." But
look at this guy. He's throwing 360
roundhouse kicks and wheel kicks.
>> Well, he was doing like I don't know,
not kung fu, but one of those practices
before he was ever wrestling.
Yeah, it was like Sancheu or something.
>> But you watch this cat fight. He fights
just like Azadullah. He's got that long
reach,
slick striking, wicked kicks. He he
throws a lot of high kicks.
And that dude Alvarez that he's fighting
was tough as [ __ ] dude, cuz he he he
took a lot before he finally wilted.
>> You could see he's hurting from the leg
kicks already before that. Oh,
>> he's getting destroyed.
>> Vicious. Being a long guy like that is
just so much more beneficial. That's why
everybody thinks it's all these big
muscle heads like like the OG UFC that
that's that's the fighter [laughter]
build.
>> The guy on the the guy on top of the
world with his fist.
>> It's like it's the tall long like skinny
guy that can strike. Well, like that's
the perfect like MMA build.
>> Yeah, because they can strike you from
six inches away from where you can
strike them. That's a crazy advantage.
Yeah, that's a back to where was with
Tai on Thursday, whatever it was. And
he's like I want to say he said 78 inch
reach.
>> Wow.
>> He's like he's like I have a 78 inch
reach. He's like so I can touch you guys
from this and that and southpaw and blah
blah blah. But I'm like well yeah like
>> that's like a light heavyweight reach.
>> Yeah. It's like well no dude they both
of those guys have crazy long reach.
It's ridiculous.
>> Real real long arms, real long legs.
Perfect for triangles. Perfect for for
any kind of dar guillotines anything.
rear nakeds. Rear naked with an arm in.
>> Yeah. And then you fight southpaw like
this.
>> It's like you can touch from a million
miles away. That's what me I'm the
opposite. My whole style is all the way
out or all the way in. I I got to get in
and get to work in there, you know? And
and there's something to be said about
that, too, because those two styles
cancel each other out. If you have a
long guy, he's not going to fight as
well on the inside. It's not saying that
he can't, especially with the Muay Thai,
the way they clinch is actually very
efficient. And and with the boxing
stuff, opening stuff up and being able
to get your your longer limbs in there
is is perfectly viable as well. It's
just you got to play off of your of you
know, your god-given talents and your
assets. And so the shorter guy is going
to negate the long guy by getting
inside. And if the long guy can maintain
the distance and keep him there, then
he's going to win that.
>> Yeah, there's benefits to all body
types. It's just knowing what to do with
that body type. Like look, Mike Tyson is
arguably the greatest heavyweight of all
time. He's in the in the conversation
with Ali and Joe Lewis and
there's a few guys that you could like
put into that that category as the
greatest heavyweight of all time. And I
think Mike Tyson certainly in his prime
was right there.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, Lennox Lewis, you got to put
Lennox Lewis in that conversation. Even
prime time Larry Holmes, you got to put
him in that conversation, right? But
Mike Tyson was 5'11, you know, as a
heavyweight. That's crazy. And he was
only like 215, 220 in his prime. But
that bombing and weaving and constant
movement, he would just overwhelm guys.
You see the tall guys putting their
hands out, they just they were just
dealing with this [ __ ] Wolverine that
was running towards them.
>> Yeah. And and I had just seen something
from him or read a quote and he he said
it wasn't my physicality that was my
greatest asset. It was my elusiveness.
It was that I was so elusive that I
could get in and I could get to work,
you know.
>> Yes.
>> And
a lot of people, unless you're like a
real um practitioner or, you know, a
student of the sport, they don't see
that. They just see they just see the
bombs coming and they attribute that to
he's got punching power. He's this
monster. But there's just so much more
intricate. You know, it's like you said
about Anderson, like this is an art
form. This is it's a game of of setting
things up. It's a chess match. You know,
everybody looks at it like it's
checkers, but it's there's so many more
moves that could be made and that need
to be made to be the best at this.
>> And you really want to be appreciated by
the people that understand that. You
don't want to be the guy that gives into
the the howls and the the cheers of the
casuals. The the real feeling, the good
feeling that fighters get is when
someone is a true student of the game,
who really understands what they like, I
love it when you're doing this. I love
that thing you do when you do. There's
those that's what guys want to hear.
They want to hear like from their fellow
fighters. Like if you know a like when
an elite fighter goes up to another
elite fighter, it's like, "Bro, I
[ __ ] love what you're doing." You
could see they're like, "Thank Like it's
like hits different% means more when
when you know that a guy is really
operating at a very high level,
>> right? Yeah. Cuz the rest of the people
have never stepped room into even a gym
to spar or like go a couple rounds of
grappling, you know? So it's
>> they often times they don't know what
they're seeing.
>> They have no understanding.
>> Sometimes they think when the guy's
missing it's cuz he sucks, you You know
what is funny is that
even I have had that realization cuz
like growing up it was like me and my
pops watching UFC and to me I you know
that was that was my thing. But I would
always sit there and go well why doesn't
this guy do this? It's right there. Just
do that. It's right there. It's like
dude you're not standing in a cage
surrounded by thousands of people. You
don't have the same fatigue. You don't
know injuries you're going into with it.
you don't know what you practiced
leading up to it that you even have the
capacity to think about and to act on.
It's like there's just so many things.
So like I watch stuff now and I'm so
much better at that because I'm sitting
there going he could do that but I don't
know what he's seeing, you know? I don't
know what's going on in his mind. So
>> yeah, there's there's different levels
to it.
>> Yeah, for sure. It's I mean it's a very
complex game. It really is. I wanted to
ask you a question. Do you think that it
was a benefit for you to lose your first
two fights? Do you think there's maybe
something to that? Cuz we were talking
about your first two opponents in the
UFC being undefeated until they fought
you. They had never experienced loss as
a professional before and then they get
on this crazy big hype thing. And
there's something about being undefeated
as well, especially when you're a guy
like Wellmaker who's not just
undefeated, but a knockout artist. Like
people get really really jazzed up and
excited about that.
Do you think that maybe having that bad
feeling of loss earlier in your career
maybe grounded you more?
>> Yeah, certainly. I uh I went six and0
undefeated as an amateur, but I can tell
you at that time I was not living a
fighter's lifestyle to the fullest. You
know, at that time I would literally go
to practice in the morning and then I
had to go to work at night or whatever.
But I was like, man, fighting is the
best. You just go wake up, practice
once, you get to kick it. the whole rest
of the day you get to go fight and make
all this money and and live your dream.
That's all it takes. This is this is
cool and all and I'm winning all these
amateur scene fights which that's what
the amateurs are for for learning and
getting your experience. But um yeah, it
really showed me that there was change
that needed to be be made in what I did
with with fighting and what I did
outside of fighting. And outside of
fighting was was arguably more
important. you know, there was a lot
that I needed to change, uh, a lot that
I needed to refocus on and and make
right by. And it wasn't until I did
those things that I saw this this
drastic change. You know, it wasn't
until I that I erased all the negatives
and then filled it with all the
positives that I'm able to be on a
10ight win streak doing what I'm doing
now because who knows? I mean, maybe
maybe I would have changed that, but I
don't think it would have been as
drastic if I hadn't experienced those
two losses the way I did.
>> So, before those two losses, your first
two professional fights, were you kind
of [ __ ] off?
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> Yeah. What were you doing?
>> Just everything. I mean,
>> drinking, [snorts] partying,
>> smoking, drinking, being a delinquent,
being
>> not the best partner. Um,
>> how old were you back then? Uh, I came
back from college in 2017. I, uh, tore
my meniscus in a dual meet and then my
coach was
>> same knee.
>> Uh, my right knee, different knee. Coach
is an [ __ ] about it. I snap, crackle,
popped all the way through the rest of
the season. Wasn't until after an
[ __ ] about in what way? Like you
didn't want to make
>> He just ignored it like completely. He
just pretty much told me suck it up.
Like,
>> oh, what a great coach.
>> And uh, yeah, exactly. That's why I
didn't go back. I mean, it was a lot of
things. I was in Bristol, Tennessee. So,
it's like there's [snorts] not a whole
lot to do out there coming from SoCal.
So, that was a a culture shock. I was on
my own for the very first time. And
then, yeah, I got hurt. So, then I
started I don't know, everybody else is
out there partying and stuff. I never
partied. I grew up very religious. I was
very strict. I all throughout high
school, I didn't I didn't touch
anything. I didn't look anything. I
didn't wanted to partake in anything. I
I just wrestled. That was my only drug
was wrestling back then, you know? Like,
that's all I did. And I had a lot of
success then. And it wasn't until I
deviated from that course and I started
finding
fun or enjoyment or just maybe just
trying to fill time and and numb some of
the things that I was thinking about or
worrying about or like that wrestling
thing. It might not have been the
biggest thing to people, but for me like
that was my first time experiencing
where I had just placed like eighth in
California State. I was fifth at the
national tournament. I was just just
doing everything right. you know, I had
won the US Open for my age division and
then I go to this and I'm on my own for
the first time and I have all this
adversity and it's just like I don't
know, I just felt like like why is this
happening to me? You know, I felt like
uh I I had been abandoned at that point
and maybe maybe other people would have
recovered from it better, but that was a
first time experience for me. So, but
yeah, I was barely 19 years old around
that time. I think I probably started
fighting around in the amateurs around
20. So, I was I was relatively young,
but
>> So, that's when you started partying.
>> I was as soon as I tore my meniscus, I
finished out the wrestling season and
then I remember like even school like
slouched off. Like I didn't I wasn't
really caring about school too much. We
had finals. I didn't really even try too
hard and then I went I remember that day
as soon as the last final was done, we
all went to the my buddy's house and
that's the first time I ever got drunk
like ever. And so, and it's not to say
that those things are like the end of
the world if if you're controlling them,
but I certainly wasn't. You know, I had
like a lot of compounding things being
first time. And uh that carried over. It
was like that all the way up until
Yeah. Uh it was after that second loss,
I was probably still not doing what I
needed to be doing to be a disciplined
athlete. Um a respectable just like, you
know, good person really. I wasn't I
wasn't being a good person. And uh
[sighs]
yeah, there was there was a lot of
change, a lot of growth. You know, I had
a lot of people guide me back into that.
And as soon as I made those changes,
yeah, now now I'm here having been able
to live and experience it cuz that's the
best teacher out of all of them. You
know, you can go and watch a YouTube
video on how to do something, right?
Like fix a car. Oh, I know exactly where
the alternator is. I know where this
this pump is. I know how this connects
to this. Then the second you open it up,
it's like, okay, well, I didn't know I
needed this tool. And wow, this is
really way harder to pull off. And and
it's the experience. It's it's the
hardship and experience that teaches you
things. So 100%. If I hadn't gone
through that, who knows where I'd be and
what I'd be doing right now. you when
you hurt your knee in uh college, was
that the first time you'd ever done
where you had an injury where it
completely compromised your ability to
perform where you realize like, oh, like
my body's very vulnerable.
Um, so I I had actually sprained my
ankle. It was it's called the OC DS.
It's like the number one and number two
in Orange County face off. and uh I had
tore up my ankle pretty good and that
was going into league and then CIF and
all that stuff and I had almost worried
that I wouldn't be able to wrestle which
is a big thing. Luckily I was able to
wrestle on that but yes I guess the
meniscus was probably the first time
where it really took me out of my game
like that and to me it was more of a I
don't know if it was a vulnerability of
the body. I like I
had come to terms with that. I I
understood that. Um
I don't know. I maybe I I thought there
was a higher power like protecting me
and at that moment like I was no longer
protected and I had been abandoned and
that's kind of what got to me honestly
is I thought like God had
abandoned me essentially at that time.
>> Really? You didn't think like maybe God
would did you even consider that it was
a challenge that it was something?
>> I can look back on it and say with
certainty that it is. And that's
>> You were young. I was young and that's
that's why I said I clouded my mind with
a bunch of other things and instead of
focus on it and thinking about it
clearly I just just moved farther away
from the issue. So like at that time
that's what I thought. Now being a
mature man having grown my relationship
with God having read and studied and and
understanding that like I said that
those hardships are what build us is
that that's what tests our faith and
what really brings us closer to God. Now
I see that it it wasn't as big as I had
made it, you know, but I learned and and
maybe falling farther down the path
taught me even more.
>> Yeah, I think it does. I think fall I
think failing is actually a very good
teacher. I really do. I think in all
aspects of your life and uh especially
when you're a young person, you have
this idea of who you are. Having that
get knocked down where you have to
rebuild is very important because once
you rebuild and you realize like, okay,
now I know what I'm capable of. Now I
know that there's this is there's going
to be ups and downs, but I must maintain
the path,
>> right?
>> Did you have to get your knee fixed? Did
you have to do anything to it?
>> Yeah, they did a scope on it. So they
they shaved uh the part that was hanging
away, which to me I wish I had never
done.
>> Yeah,
>> because that knee gave has gives me
issues to today. like any of this
inversion like a triangle choke with a
right leg going over that meniscus. It
was my lateral meniscus outside. It
rolls over and it catches. So then I got
to bring my leg straight and pop it back
into place. And uh it's gotten better.
You know, I I get through it quicker
these days. But
>> they tell you to not even get that
surgery now. Well, so my my second
professional fight where I got ankle
locked. I got uh [sighs] I think it was
like an outside reap and I went to sit
up to to grab it and he had the position
locked and my knee just went [snorts]
like eight times in my ear real bad and
it was in the same exact spot that
lateral meniscus that outer which uh I
don't know what what other ligament is
on the outside there. But uh to me it
was like exactly where the the meniscus
on the right leg had happened. But I
grabbed up or sat up. I grabbed his
arms. I kept trying to fight through it
and then he switched it over to the to
the heel hook on the other side. My
ankle popped twice as I rolled and I
finally tapped in. But I didn't I didn't
even get an MRI on that one. I tried to.
It took so long that I was doing the
knees over toes and strengthening and I
was starting to move on it that by the
time they're like, "Okay, we can get
your MRI in a week." I'm like, "Dude,
I'm already moving and exercising and
doing stuff on this." Like I was cool.
But yeah, I never did anything with
that. And that knee's really never given
me any issues. And then the one I got
the scope on still bothers me to today.
>> Yeah. They don't recommend [snorts] that
anymore because they did a study of
people that have had meniscus surgery
versus not not having meniscus surgery
and just rehabilitation. And it shows
that rehabilitation seems to be the
better path.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, especially for like there's I
have one that's been scoped and it
bothers me all the time. That's the one
I got shot up today.
>> Okay.
>> It always bothers me. It's like there's
missing padding on one side of it. It's
missing. But I had a bucket handle tear
and in jiu-jitsu it would lock and my
leg would be stuff like stiff and I
could I have to like push it back into
place. It was excruciating.
>> It was like stuck locked out.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It would go back eventually
but it would take sometimes it would
take a day before and it would swell up,
you know. But if I knew, first of all,
this is a long time ago. Unfortunately,
there was no stem cells available back
then. I would have 100% just done stem
cells and now I would have done the
knees over toes stuff and a lot of
cycling like stationary box bike cycling
at not high resistance is a fairly low
resistance is just repetitive motion.
It's really good for getting the blood
flow to the knees and really good for
strengthening up the tendons and the
ligaments and everything but without
load. You you know it's just you do it
at like a very low resistance and just
for a long time and that's really good
for your knees.
>> Sweet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's
there's so many things like I think even
like leg extensions would probably be
like a good little exercise for the
knees. I mean
>> it's a pretty deliberate spot. I think
you know like backpacking
>> I think I think like a controlled
version of that because there's a lot of
times you know you're dropping down like
pretty heavily
>> this and that which is probably not the
best impact on the knee. Yeah.
>> But if you were doing it like because
that's kind of the knees over toes is
he's doing some similar motions. If you
had some maybe not as much weight,
>> some weight on your back, you could
slowly kind of find that and then have a
soft landing like right
>> I don't know. I was backpacking recently
and I was just thinking about this. I'm
like like in a controlled setting like
in a gym like on a machine that I'm like
maybe not as much as like a steep
incline or a decline like something like
that would be really good. And then the
range of motion stuff is I I've had, you
know, with with my injury and stuff and
time to step away, I've had like a lot
of opportunity to think and I I feel
like I've I've grown tremendously. And
it's like, yeah, all the little tiny
things like the knees, like they're
fine. Like I I do it. I really don't
have an issue too much. Like maybe if I
get into that position, it'll do it. But
it's like, you know, what happens when I
do get into like a position, let's say a
leg lock position for example, or like a
a straight knee bar, and you know what?
If my my flexibility is an issue there,
or just simply like a wizard position
where the knees getting popped up, like
just any there's there's a million in
one positions that the knees could be
compromised there. And so, yeah, it's
going back doing a lot of range of
motion stuff, a lot of strengthening on
the knees. Um,
>> do you do uh Polloquin step downs? Do
you know those?
>> No. Uh Charles Polloquin seem to find
pollin simple. You're essentially doing
it either you're doing it from um an
incline board with like a little bit of
elevation or you're just doing it from a
straight up step. And what you're doing
is you're just lowering yourself down.
So one foot is above on the step and the
other foot you're lowering like that.
Like there. There you go. He's doing it
on plates. Very simple. Very simple,
right? I mean, you're literally only
going like 10 inches,
>> but you're going up and down like that,
and it's just controlling the body
weight like that. Phenomenal for knee
strengthening and for knee stability.
It's excellent. It's one of the best
exercises.
>> Sweet.
>> You doing uh backwards pulls with like
either a sled or on a treadmill. Do you
walk backwards doing that? I I'm not
doing like really any exercises uh
weight and like I mean I do little
things but for strength and conditioning
after boxing but I stay away from the
weights
>> but it's not even for the weights. I'm
talking you do it on a treadmill.
>> Okay,
>> you do on a treadmill just basically
keep the treadmill off and just with
your own resistance you step backwards.
Okay.
>> So, you put your back to the screen and
hold on to the bars and you're basically
just pushing with your legs going
backwards and it's really good for
strengthening your knees and also for
blood flow. That's a knees over toes guy
thing.
>> Okay. All right.
>> His his page is phenomenal. That guy
>> I'll go to the Yeah. the 24-hour fitness
and burn out their treadmill.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You can do that or you could
use a sled. You know, we do it with a
sled here.
>> You know, you put the sled you put like
a waist strap and you just back up and
pull the sled. It doesn't have to be a
lot of weight. It's not It's not a
weight thing. Right. It's really just a
circulation thing and a strengthening
thing.
>> He has another one that
uh you get the band around your back and
then you're kind of
I forgot how he did it. You're you're
essentially like uh leaned over and then
straightening the leg. It's got it's
you're like in a lunge, I guess.
Actually,
>> you're in a lunge. The knee goes over
the toes. You have the resistance on the
back and then you're pushing and
essentially doing the same thing as
probably walking back with this leg.
>> The band is attached in the front or in
behind
>> attached in the front. So resistance is
pulling you forward. Okay.
>> And you're you're lunged over the knee
the knee over the toe
>> and then you're you're extending that
that leg and it's just hitting that knee
perfectly.
>> It's it's very similar to the one you're
talking about, I'm sure.
>> Yeah. because so much time you spend
pushing forward and not a lot of people
spend much time pushing backwards, but
pushing backwards is really important.
It's really important to just overall
knee strength,
>> right? I think I think the side to side
stuff too is like I was almost like let
me get in the sand and I do a lot of
like working out in the sand just for
the boxing for the for the footwork and
being able to stay in a stance. But like
that little like side explosion stuff
would probably start strengthening those
those muscles on the side and the
ligaments going that way.
>> And then I'm trying to think like, you
know, how do you get that that motion? I
mean, you could get a band and probably
like do kind of like a lateral extension
or pull it up into your like an inward
extension.
>> You know who used to do a lot of weird
[ __ ] with bands? BJ Penn.
>> Oh yeah. He did a lot of weird [ __ ] in
his prime with like flexibility stuff
and developing strength from weird
positions with bands.
>> Yeah. I see. Uh
I don't know if BJ was was a part of
that program, but like the Raphael dos
all the the fascia kind of stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, Rafael Dos Anjos was
training with Nick Kers. Nick Kersan was
a student of Marv Marinovich.
>> Okay.
>> And Marv Marino is the guy who trained
BJ when he was like in his prime. Okay.
when he when he really got super serious
about cardio, but it's a very
controversial approach. The Marinovich's
approach was, you already know how to
fight, so forget about fight training.
We're just going to give you the most
[ __ ] insane gas tank you've ever had,
and that way you'll be able to execute
everything you want. And so, the primary
focus was just plyometrics
>> and their conditioning program. And it
was hell,
>> right?
>> And BJ did not like going through it,
but when he went through it, he was like
unstoppable cuz he just never gassed,
>> right? And it's that's the interesting
thing about conditioning in general is
we have these ideas of what the
threshold is like what a human body's
capable of doing for five minutes for
three rounds or five rounds like in
terms of what kind of pace that you
could put up. And then you have certain
guys that come along that sort of
redefine what the threshold is like
Morab. Rob comes along and here you got
some guy whose gas tank is [ __ ]
superhuman and he makes the best
fighters in the world just wilt under
the this constant pressure being taken
down and his strength and his his his
skill as a wrestler. It's just this
constant attack, constant constant
constant constant. And you wonder like,
okay, what how long did it take to build
up that reserve? How long did it take to
build up that gas tank? That's not
something you can achieve in just one
camp, right? Like that's that's
something that takes literally years to
develop.
>> Oh, for sure. That's why I mean, like I
said, going back to wrestling, my my
what what I would say my superpower, my
most utilized skill set was my my
cardio, my gas tank, you know. Um, and I
don't know, I what is it? Anabolic
versus anorobic, like the striking
versus the grappling cardio.
>> Mhm.
I think there's something to be said
about that wrestling cardio, like just
that like strict, you're just grinded
out 24/7, you know, you're always
colliding, your muscles are always
tensed up. I think there's something to
be said about that that if you had great
wrestling cardio, you could do almost
anything in the world.
>> Yeah. It builds up a a foundation that's
kind of unstoppable,
>> right?
>> If you can maintain that kind of work
ethic cuz it's it's a it's an insane.
That's the other thing about it is the
mental toughness that comes from
wrestling, right?
>> There's some like when a guy has like an
elite wrestling background and he enters
into the UFC, I always say they have an
advantage. They have an advantage over
everybody else because
>> whether or not you choose to put
yourself or you get coached by someone
who puts you through hell in camp. With
wrestling, you don't have a choice. Like
everyone's going through hell, right?
>> There's no one get there's no easy path
to get on a [ __ ] wrestling team
anywhere in the country,
>> right?
>> You have to wrestle for your your
position. It's literally
>> you got to battle for that that spot,
you know, and then the practice is once
or twice a day of just purely grinding
it out. Staying in a wrestling stance
alone is extremely tough to do. Now
you're doing it at elevated pace. Now
you're doing it with someone snapping on
your head. Now you're just like, and
then you go and you you do live
wrestling and then finish it up with
sprints. Yeah. To me to me there's
nothing that beats that. Like and and I
think
the the style of it is like go go go.
Like even jiu-jitsu, you're finding
places to rest. You know, you can throw
on in the guard and and you can you can
rest in certain entanglements. Striking
is all about being able to have an
explosive motion and then find your way
to to be defensive to slow down what
they're doing. You're either you're
getting in stuffing it, you're at a
distance where you can be a little bit
relaxed because they can't reach you or,
you know, you're you're moving off
making them miss where there's no
resistance there. You know, I just with
wrestling, you don't have any of that.
there's there's no chance for a break,
especially if you got someone like Morab
who's just on you 247. And so to me,
that's, you know, back to the cardio
thing we talked about earlier. I don't
know. I I think if you got Yeah. elite
wrestling cardio, then you could do all
the rest of it. You'd be able to strike,
you'd be able to do the jiu-jitsu and
take homes, like you can hang for that
duration of time with great cardio.
>> It's also if you could figure out how to
be a great wrestler, you can kind of
figure out anything. It's just a matter
of taking that same focus that turned
you into a great wrestler and applying
it to whatever it is, MMA, whatever,
whatever else you're trying to do. If
you're willing to go through what it
took to become a great wrestler, that's
an extraordinary human. That's very few
people ever reach a very high level of
wrestling. It's just too [ __ ] hard.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's the best foundation for combat
sports, for sure, for MMA. Because if
you could take a guy down and he can't
take you down, that's a massive
advantage, right?
>> Massive. You dictate where the fight
takes place. And if you develop elite
striking on top of that, it's a perfect
combination.
>> Oh, for sure. I mean, anybody asking me
personally, I would say get a wrestling
background, get some boxing, you can
figure out the rest of it. You can
figure out how to check kicks, block
kicks,
>> you can you can do the rest of it. But
if you have those two fundamental core
bases, yeah, you're you're pretty good
against most people.
>> I would say that, too. But I would say
another thing is, and this is very
controversial, if I was to teaching a
young kid, I would say get into point
karate. Learn point karate because if
you could learn how to move the way
those guys move, the things that those
guy when you see like Michael Venom
Paige just stump people, they're just
stumped. Like I don't have any like
Kevin Holland who is fights everybody.
He's [ __ ] competitive with everybody
he fights.
>> With MVP, he was just stumped. like what
am I g what the [ __ ] am I doing? I can't
even touch this guy.
>> Right?
>> That is a giant skill set. And I always
said before MVP came onto the scene, I'm
like one of these guys, one of these
really elite point fighter guys is going
to come in and start [ __ ] everybody
out because you can't hit them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that goes back like him
and like Wonderboy are both the prime
examples of a karate style individual.
>> Yes. Um, and they're really long, so,
you know, they can utilize that a little
bit to their advantage with that that
lungey in and out.
>> But to be honest, yeah, that's something
that like I've wanted to delve into a
little bit more with myself cuz I like I
can throw kicks really well. Honestly, I
have I have good flexibility. I have the
ability to throw them with with speed,
with power. Um, but having something
like that where you can throw it nice
and fast and snappy, those little
sidekicks and the way that they throw
the kicks is great cuz
>> I mean the only other relation I would
have to that is the the Savat style. I
like the way the Savat style guys throw
their kicks.
>> I'm not very familiar with Savat.
>> The only thing that I I don't utilize
myself is a lot of the toe stuff because
I'm not wearing shoes to kick to the
body.
>> They're they're like stabbing you with
their toes. Everything like they'll even
they're even kicking like your leg. Yoza
does that.
>> Yeah.
>> He stabs guys in the body with his toes.
>> It's like the ball of his foot, right?
But like
>> Well, he's going in with the toes, man.
There's a lot of like slow-mo videos of
him stabbing guys in the liver with his
[ __ ] toes.
>> You know who else is
>> conditioning their toes.
>> Yeah. Well, that's the thing is you
better have some You'll probably have
many multiple breaks on each toe leading
up to that. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's just
that's why we were talking about the
front kick to the body is good if you do
it like a traditional Muay Thai where
you're going up and and out which is
fantastic. You can produce a lot of
speed and power but I think everybody
does this this kind of shovel up toes
into the body kick nowadays in the MMA
world. That's what I see more so. I mean
Connor Connor utilized the heck out of
that. Uh most guys bring the toes up.
It's And you better be very precise with
that cuz all it takes is one elbow
blocking down and your toes in half out.
Yeah.
>> Did you see um Rodriguez's toes after he
fought Fluffy?
>> Yeah.
>> Do you see that picture, Jamie? Pull
that picture up. It's off Gregory
Rodriguez his uh Instagram page
>> after he beat Fluffy. Uh he showed a
photo of his You haven't seen it?
>> I haven't seen it, actually.
>> Oh, you're going to cringe. It's hell.
>> Is it like like a Jon Jones break where
the
>> worse bones are sticking out? The bones
aren't sticking out, but it's it's
hilacious. You look at what happened to
his toes,
>> dude. And that one like that takes it
out of you. You start smashing your toes
like that and you got to continue
fighting.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Or you got to continue into a fight camp
with like broken toes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's what one of my wrestling
camps, I was chasing my brother in the
front yard the day before and his heel
came back and my pinky toe was like
this, straight sideways. Went to the
family doctor.
Oh yeah. I have a picture just like that
actually with my fingers, my toes
throwing westside.
Oh, look at that. Jesus.
Ow.
>> Yeah, that's that's terrible.
>> Those feet have seen some elbows, son.
>> Right. He's got a big old bunny
everything on there.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah, that's that's
uh [snorts]
he did in really good fashion, too.
>> Yeah. There's a guy that's just I don't
understand how he makes 185, right? I
don't understand it.
>> Whenever I interview him, I'm like,
you're 220 lbs, sir. Yeah. How are you?
You're at least 220 and shredded.
>> I know. I mean, it's like I guess the
bigger guys have a little bit more to
lose. There's they probably
>> definitely do all that muscle. You have
water to lose for sure,
>> right? If you're shredded, I mean,
that's one thing to be said, but
especially like heavyweights like the
Alex Pedas, I'm sure he he gets a little
bit looser, goes up to 220 and then But
that's but that's still 40 pounds. I
mean, that's a lot of weight.
>> Yeah, it's a lot of weight to lose. And
but
>> but I don't know. I mean, look at Aljo
cutting to 135.
>> Yeah.
>> He's like walk 175 lbs.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I mean, I think
>> but he doesn't do it anymore and he
feels way better at 45
>> for sure. And he had to move up because
of that. I think a lot of the
bantamweights get up to relatively that
weight. I think everybody I think that's
why I I've started seeing people try to
comment the the whole weight bully
thing. They've said it to me on
Instagram this and that. They saw one of
my training pictures where I was a
little a little loose and uh they're
like the funniest comment was someone
was like like hire a nutritionist ASAP.
Like and I was just cracking up at that.
Like these guys are roasting me. But um
yeah, I think everybody cuts relatively
the same amount of weight. Like
>> how big do you get? Like what's the
heaviest you get in between?
>> 135.
>> No, that's what you weigh, son. What do
you weigh when you
>> when you thicken up? What's the heaviest
you've ever done?
>> 175 is probably give or take. Maybe like
178 if I'm just full of food eating and
being a delinquent, but yeah, I get up
there pretty big. So,
>> but when you're in camp, like the week
before, what do you like to be at?
>> Uh, I've had all my cuts right around
150. I don't really get much lower than
that.
>> That's not too bad.
>> It's not the end of the world. I mean,
149, 148, 145 would be beautiful. If I
could just do 10 be no problem. But, uh,
this last time we did 11 in one night
and it was smooth sailing. You know, I
just keep, that's another thing. You
experience it more, you get better and
better at it. And, uh, I've gotten wiser
that the the sauna doesn't have to be a
million 10 degrees, you know, like
the the USC portable saunas, I think it
like maxed out at 150, it said.
>> And I could send that for 22.
>> Is that a red light sauna?
>> The portable ones. It probably is,
right? probably is. I don't recall, but
I'm sure it is. But that with the
emergency blankets and then cooling off
in between, that's something that I had
to get wiser to as well, you know, like
cuz everybody tries to tell you, you're
already there. You're already sweating.
Like, don't don't lose the heat. And
it's like, no, dude. This isn't a
sprint. This is a marathon. Like, we're
taking this nice and easy. So, like this
last time I was taking all my gear off,
putting ice on the body, cooling the
body temperature back down, which is is
arguably the most important aspect of
the whole weight cut is the body
temperature versus the dehydration cuz
the body gets dehydrated and it has more
of a capacity to deal with that than it
does to overheat. If you overheat,
you're done for. Like, that's it is what
it is.
>> So, is the overheating does that drain
you more in terms of like your ability
to recover for the next day? Like so
when you're cutting weight if you're
doing it at like 180 or something like
that something high and is it that like
because it does wear you out obviously
like if I do a sauna session for 20
minutes when I get out I'm tired.
>> Yeah.
>> So you've got to think if you're doing
multiple ones of those if you're trying
to make weight and then you have to
fight the next day you went through a
lot physically
>> right
>> as opposed to what you're doing. Like if
you got it at 150 it's not that bad.
It's just just sucks a little.
>> Yeah. cuz cuz I've I've done both like
>> and and and that's you're throwing a
sauna suit on as well, you know, the
sweet sweat, the sauna suit and then you
get in that that portable sauna, but
it's like before I was I was doing that
with a pair of of I don't know like uh
spandex, you know, like top and bottom
and then a jacket and then sweats and
then a big jacket and then I'm getting
in the 180 190°ree 24-hour sauna and
sitting there for 15 minutes. It's like
it's like, dude, yeah, I felt there's
there's been weight cuts where I just
feel like like terrible, atrocious. I
look terrible, you know? And then I have
some of these more recent ones where I I
lower the temperature down. I I extend
the duration of of how long the the
weight cut is itself. And there's
there's a major difference in it for
sure.
>> That's really good advice. Work smarter,
not harder.
>> Oh, dude. You've trained for two months
over just pushing your body to the
absolute limit. you're going to go fight
somebody for 15 minutes, you know,
possibly 25 minutes. You're there's all
this hard stuff already happening. You
know, that that part should not be hard.
That should be the It's It's going to be
hard, but you should make it as easy as
possible. That should be the mindset to
it.
>> Yeah, it makes sense. It makes a lot of
sense. Did you see the Moses Itama fight
this weekend?
>> Uh, I don't think so.
>> Do you know who he is, right?
>> No.
>> No. Okay. He up until this fight was
probably the most promising prospect in
the heavyweight division in more than a
decade. He is uh a young guy. He's only
21 years old and people were talking
about him being uh able to break Mike
Tyson's record of being the youngest
ever heavyweight champion.
>> So he missed that mark and then he
finally got a title fight this weekend.
looked phenomenal for the first few
rounds. And
>> oh, he I know exactly what you're
talking about.
>> Yes. Y
>> and uh he was fighting this big Croatian
cat. I I forget his name.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Uh Philillip Herrosovich.
And uh he
>> stunted on him at first.
>> Yeah. In the beginning, you mean he was
tuning this guy up. I mean, he's so fast
and so elite, but he had never been into
deep water before. every one of his
fights he'd been able to stop people and
he hadn't had any like real good
decision wins where he fought a big and
he's not the biggest heavyweight but
he's wicked fast. I mean, just wicked
fast and beautiful technique. But as the
fight went on, he started to fade. And
in the eighth, you could see him like
really slowing down and just really
trying to take this dude out, but
couldn't and thought he could. It was
emptying the gas tank instead of boxing
him and just uh outpointing him and
being skillful. He just was
inexperienced and he emptied the gas
tank and then Philip came back, man.
>> Yeah. And he finished him.
>> Yeah. Well, he finished him in a weird
way. It's like it was almost exhaustion.
>> Yeah. He's just stumbling over himself
at that point
>> cuz they're both exhausted cuz it was a
war. There's a nice right hand and he
stung him there.
>> Well, did you see their little like
table talk where they're
>> Mhm.
>> sitting across from each other.
>> And uh
>> he's all like, "It's not about, you
know, like how many times you can get
hit or you can hit somebody, it's about
how many times you can get hit and keep
coming forward."
>> Yeah.
>> And then that Moises is like that's the
stupidest thing I've ever heard. He's
like, "Why would you base your fighting
style off like how many times you can
get hit
>> and then lo and behold, you know, like
this comes across." That's why, you
know, I talk about technicality and
finesse and skill set and it's a game of
hit and don't get hit,
>> but dude, you could just have someone
who's just so tough and just so willing
that this is a perfect scenario of that.
That's that's why there is so many
aspects to this fight game.
>> Well, it was really funny because he was
basically quoting Rocky.
>> Yeah. Yeah, [laughter]
>> he really did grow. It ain't about how
hard you hit. It's about how hard you
can get hit and keep moving forward.
Exactly.
>> And he, you know, and
>> and he pulled a rocky.
>> He literally did exactly what he said he
was going to do. But it's all these
things. It's like youth and hubris and
thinking you're the greatest of all time
and and looked like the greatest. Go
pull up a Moses Itama highlight reel cuz
if you look at his highlight reel,
you're like, "This guy's the second
coming." Like he's this guy is something
really special, man. when you watch how
he fights, I mean, his his hand speed,
his knockout power, and for a young guy,
you know, this this fight, I think he
was 20, and you look at his highlight
reel, you're like, "Oh my god, the sky's
is the limit for this kid. He's just
putting everybody out."
But, you know, he wasn't really being
tested, you know, and then he finally, I
think, was it Derek Chisora? Who did he
fight before this fight? he finally beat
a top level guy but and he took him out
and so but you know it was a guy who's a
real veteran been around a long time
>> and he kind of thought that he could put
it on everybody and knock everybody out
but you know this is like one of the
things about any combat sport is you you
have to know when to hit the gas when
not to and you have to have those
experiences of these long grueling
fights and he really didn't have that
yet.
>> So, his first experience with a a Yeah,
Dillian White. That's who it was.
>> And his long his first experience with a
real No, it was it was Chisora, I think,
cuz I think it was Dillian White first
and then Chisora was the next fight
afterwards. Am I right about that?
>> No, it's just his KOs on this video.
>> What is it? Blow up his record. Who is
his last fight before Hergo?
But I mean, I still think he's got
potential to be a world champion for
sure. I mean, the kid's only 21 years
old.
>> Germaine Franklin.
>> Dillian White right there. That's what
it was. It wasn't Derek Chisor, it was
Dillian White. Um, and Germaine Franklin
was right after that. So, every fight
has been TKO, TKO, TKO, TKO, TKO. I
mean, if you watch his fights, I mean,
they're [ __ ] stunning performances,
but wasn't really being tested in that
way with a really big, durable
heavyweight who could take a shot, who,
you know, has a ton of experience and,
you know, now he's got his first loss,
but he'll be back.
>> Yeah.
>> He's only 21.
>> Well, that's, you know, on the
that's that's how they do it in boxing.
They feed these guys, build them up, and
then when they're solidified now, now
you fight somebody who's substantial,
you know. Um,
>> and that's, you know, I've done a lot of
comparisons, but that's to me where the
MMA guys are just more down to go and do
their thing. They'll fight anybody at
any given time.
>> By decision, though, or is that by
necessity? Because the UFC, you know, if
they call you up and say, "Hey, uh, in
four weeks, do you want to fight for the
world title? I know you've never fought
in the UFC before,
but that's in boxing that's unheard of.
That would never take place,
>> right?
>> But in the UFC, if you're a pretty good
fighter and you're doing well and you
win a bunch of championships in other
organizations and all of a sudden this
opportunity arises, we've had guys with
their first fight in the UFC fight for
the world title.
>> That is true. I mean, that's what you
get when you have a like a melting pot
of things, though, because those guys
are like well established in their own
personal careers. Maybe wrestling or
>> kickboxing or whatever it is
>> or rising or
>> Yeah. It's not like you're pulling out
like the local kid and tell telling him,
"Let's go fight for a world title." I
mean,
>> but they would put out pull out the
local kid and fight a guy who has 10 15
fights in the UFC. That does happen.
That happens all the time. Well, that's
what I'm saying is like
>> I I I think that the boxers would be
more hesitant to take something like
that like you're saying, but the MMA
guys are always down to do that kind of
stuff.
>> Well, the boxers though,
>> it's a different it's a different
culture. I suppose
>> it is, but it's also the fact that no
one gives a [ __ ] who the promoter is in
boxing. No, if if someone's going to
watch Jervante Davis fight, they don't
say, "Well, who's promoting that? Hold
on. Is this for Bob Arum? Is this for
Golden Boy?" Like, no one cares, right?
It's just who are the fighters? With the
UFC, it's a very different animal. So,
if you get a call for the UFC, like, oh
my god, we're in the big leagues,
>> right?
>> And that's different.
>> 100%. Yeah. They have all sorts of
different promotions and different
people you can fight for in boxing. But
UFC is is the pinnacle. It's
>> Yeah. If you get the call from the UFC,
that's where you want to go. So, there's
there's a whole lot of differences to
it. I just think um whatever it is that
Yeah. Yeah, the MMA guys are are more
willing to step in on their short notice
and and put their careers at risk and
put their, you know, opportunities to to
continue fight streaks or whatever at a
risk. So, that's that's how I see it.
That's what I picked up from those two
different things.
>> Yeah, it's definitely a different
culture, right? It's a culture of
accepting those risks and also of
probably people that are just
they're they're much more willing to
take a chance, it seems. Yeah, exactly.
That's why I think like that's us a
little bit more padded up to
>> a little bit more wild to be fighting
MMA anyway. You know,
>> that's it's a little bit more wild for
sure. And that's that's a little bit uh
>> more of a business I would say in my
opinion.
>> The boxing
>> the boxing is
>> which
>> Well, you got a lot of like very smart
people involved in boxing that are like
managers and trainers that are like
really working to build a guy and turn
him into a prospect, turn him into a
contender. Yeah.
>> And then turn him into a champion.
>> In the UFC, you only have the one
organization doing that and they're
managing all the weight classes and all
the prospects and they're picking and
choosing
>> they schedule fight card. They schedule
fights around cards. They don't schedule
cards around fights. Right. So if you
like say if Canelo Alvarez is fighting
someone, it is whenever Canelo is ready
to fight, that's when the card takes
place. Yeah.
>> Right. So Canelo Alvarez wants to fight
September 12th. Okay, great. September
12th, let's put together a fight card
around Canelo Alvarez. With the UFC,
it's like the UFC is coming to Salt Lake
City October 3rd. Who's there?
>> Right.
>> Who wants a fight? Like, we're going to
have a fight. Who's going to be on the
fight?
>> Who's going to be on the card? And then
you put the card together. So, it's a
different animal.
>> Yeah. No, they're they're different for
sure. I mean, I try to draw wisdom from
all all aspects of everything. So, I'm
constantly delving into all the
different realms myself.
>> Do you uh read a lot? Are you a guy who
do you like read anything on on
psychology or on warrior tactics? You
ever get into like book of five rings or
any of that [ __ ]
>> For sure. I'm reading uh it's called
Hogakari right now and it's essentially
um it's a it's a single individual
Yamamoto.
It's like Tun Tunishi or something. I
forget his name exactly but um he served
for like the the reigning leader at the
time. His leader passed away. He wanted
to commit sepeku because he was of that
that mentality that warrior mentality
but um his leader had had commanded like
that no one was allowed to do that this
and that. But he's taken a lot of
storylines, inspirations from all these
samurai cuz it's going into a time
period where the samurai weren't a
necessity anymore. And so the ideology,
the lifestyle, what it meant to to live
that bushidto lifestyle had changed a
different a little bit and their purpose
was different. And uh my boxing coach
gave it to me actually when I was kind
of in this limbo state of like it's
essentially saying how should a warrior
live outside of the fight, you know,
like what does he need to be doing on a
daily basis? And but then it's it's I
like the real life uh like storyline
because now you're getting a bunch of
different perspectives from all these
people that were samurai, all were
warriors, who lived that who, you know,
fought in battle and now you get to see
like a lot of different things. like
someone says you should do this and
someone says no, don't do that. And to
me, I like that because I get to kind of
delve through all the mindsets and then
apply what works best to me, you know,
but uh I love I love reading all that
stuff. I'm not been so good at staying
off the phone and and you know, I watch
a lot of YouTube, which is it's always
fighting or
>> some kind of gun channel or hiking or
camping or hunting or spear fishing or
something. But um yeah, I I'm trying to
get way better at that. trying to stay
off the screens like I I want to be more
interactive with the world around me,
learning things constantly and so
picking up a book and reading it is
along along that set of goals that I
have is continuously be doing that.
>> Yeah, I think there's benefits to a lot
of stuff on YouTube. I think YouTube is
not social media. And I think I learn a
lot on YouTube. And I just get it's for
me, I like to wind down on YouTube, just
watch some ancient history thing or
watch a professional pool match or
something like that. It's just wind down
time, but it doesn't feel like I'm
wasting time. Whereas if I'm looking at
Instagram or Twitter or whatever, it's
it feels like I'm doing something I
shouldn't be doing. That's not
beneficial.
>> Oh, 100%. That's to me as I'm building
up my platform and whatnot. I understand
it as a business and so I understand
there's some necessity for me to be into
it producing content, not necessarily
taking in content. Uh but yeah, 100%
it's it's something that has uh affected
our culture in a large way. It's all the
the
uh what's it called? Like the short term
like media, you know, where you're
clicking through it, it's just
>> it's killing our attention spans. It's
it's just
uh like you know your dopamine is is
firing at all times going crazy.
>> Problems you're a focus.
>> Yeah. You're getting this like
>> that's where that's where I love the
YouTube but I almost have to recognize
that just because I'm watching a spear
fishing video doesn't mean I'm getting
in the water and going and spear
fishing. Cuz sometimes I feel like I get
my fix a little bit by doing that. But
then I have to remind myself it's like
no life is lived in in your actions and
and and your experiences. So sitting and
watching the the TV screen, somebody
else experienced that, you know, you you
get the inside scoop. You get to kind of
be there under the water, watch what's
going on, but yeah, you're not actually
living it. So I like it. I love I love
to to learn from that social media.
Yeah, it's it sucks. It's just zapping
everybody. And uh
>> it's certainly not a part of the warrior
lifestyle as you were talking about as
samurai
>> because then like you want to think
about like your your meditative aspects
of like how often are you delving deep
into your own brain and just figuring
out things about yourself and asking
those questions and pushing beyond and
when you got a phone screen stealing all
your attention how are you ever doing
that
>> right? Yeah. Absolutely. You're not
you're not you know if you're if you're
spending so much time doing that. You're
a spear fisher guy huh? You really like
spear fishing?
>> I like to spearfish. I uh it's been some
time since I've been back in the water.
I had a buddy that we used to go all the
time and then he moved up to Washington
and uh I don't know. I
>> Where were you guys spear fishing?
>> Uh we go local like uh there's a
chronodmar beach and then there's a
smaller kind of hidden beach that you
walk down and it's got plenty of
structure and all sorts of fish out
there. Uh Laguna's got the kelp forest.
So, I just been going shore diving and
uh going over there grabbing lobster
when it's lobster season, grabbing down
to the honey holes and just grabbing
them with our hands. So, just it's all
the shore stuff right now. I haven't
been off a boat.
>> It's uh for my friends that have been
hunting that they say they love it
because they say it's like hunting
underwater,
>> right?
>> It's not really like fishing. It doesn't
You call it spear, but it feels like
you're hunting.
>> It's it's
Yeah, it's you're in the action, you
know? You get to pick and choose which
fish you're going to take, which one to
let to let go. And uh yeah, you're also
I like it because I like the primitive
aspects. Like we talked about like a
little bit of bow hunting before. I I'm
really enthralled with the bow hunting
stuff over the rifle hunt cuz dude, you
can sit at like three, four, sometimes
guys are shooting them out like a 500
yards with this big old rifle and you're
just smacking something. It's like that
thing didn't even like ever know you
were there, you know? you're just like
propped up and there's a place for it, I
suppose. But having a bow and have to
get up 30ish yards, give or take, and
having to make sure they're not catching
your scent and having to to perform the
stock. I like the primitive stuff. I
like a I like something that involves a
skill set instead of just like a
technological uh prowess.
>> No, I agree with you. Obviously, I I'm a
big bow hunter. I don't think there's
anything wrong with rifle hunting and
it's definitely the best way to acquire
meat. If you're just going on a meat
hunt and you just want to get your meat
for the next few months, a rifle is the
way to go. But if you want a real
challenge, there's something that's way
more special about a bow hunt. It's more
difficult. It requires more practice.
Requires more of you. Like uh I went on
a pig hunt um about a year or so ago
with a friend of mine in California
where we had uh had a successful elk
hunt and then we went pig hunting and I
hadn't shot a rifle in two years, a year
and a half, two years, like not one shot
with a rifle.
>> Aced this pig at like 90 yards like it
was nothing. Boom. Dropped him in his
tracks. Like that was so easy
>> in comparisons
on them. Don't flinch. Squeeze the
trigger slowly. Make sure you're in a
good position.
>> Yeah.
>> And know how to shoot a rifle. And once
you know how to shoot a rifle, you kind
I mean, I'm not taking thousand yard
shots, but you know how to shoot a
rifle. It's pretty easy. Compared. If I
was bow hunting, I wouldn't even imagine
if I hadn't shot a bow in a year and a
half of even thinking about shooting
something with a bow,
>> right?
>> Not a chance in hell. I wouldn't even
think about it for like months. I would
say, I need to practice. I need to hit
targets all the time. I need to make
sure my shot is act. I knew get my
technique down. I'd want to film myself,
make sure I'm not doing anything stupid
like, let me look at my form. Why Why is
my elbow to the right? It should be
above. I would I would never imagine.
Rifle's way easier. But the feeling of
taking an animal down with a bow is a
completely different feeling. It's so
much harder to do. It's so much more
exciting. And if you fail, it doesn't,
you know, I many a hunt where you seven
days nothing happens. Okay, that's just
part of the thing, right? But at least,
you know, we're out here getting after
it and trying and you succeed or you
fail, but at least you're in nature and
the experience of it is still really
fun. Even if you're totally
unsuccessful.
>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, that's why
with the spear fishing stuff like these
free divers that can hold their breath
up to four or five minutes, you know,
and they're diving 40, 50, 60, 70 feet.
some of these guys out there in the
middle of the blue water and they're
going down to shipwrecks or whatever
structure is down there and they're
shooting these big old fish. It's like
yeah, there's like there has to be a
skill set to that. It's something you
had to work for to achieve, you know?
Oh, yeah.
>> It's something you had to to build up
to. So, yeah, I I love all that stuff. I
haven't been like bow hunting. I haven't
even been rifle hunting. It's something
that I really want to get into. I like
all that outdoor stuff. I'm
>> We can help you. We can help you get
into that. Yeah, definitely. I'll
connect you with some people.
>> No, I I love all that, you know. I like
I took a backpack. I just did uh Mount
Whitney last year in August and uh I
just love being out there in nature. So,
you know, being able to engage in it
that way, too, is like you said, the
excitement, the the buildup, the work
you have to put into it, the knowledge
you have to acquire, the people you have
to bump into. Um
>> the meals are a lot different, too. When
you eat a meal that you prepared
yourself that you went and hunted, it's
just a completely different feeling.
>> Oh, for sure. And you're living in
California now and California has a
giant pig population.
>> There's a lot of pig hunting to be had
in California pretty much all year
round. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because they're invasive species.
Like that's one that I I'll get in the
helicopter with the rifle and just take
those guys out cuz I know they're just
destroying animal like you know like
habitat and eating all the food and and
destroying the geography of most places
they are. So
>> millions of them here in Texas.
Literally millions.
>> Yeah. And they they breed like no other,
too. You know, they just multiply.
>> Three times a year, they have litter
sometimes. Wow.
>> At least twice a year.
>> Um I have uh some friends of mine and I
we have a hunting lease out here and as
you're walking through like the woods,
you hear them. They sound like demons.
>> Yeah.
>> You hear them like fighting with each
other in the bushes and [ __ ] You're
like, "What the [ __ ] am I getting into?"
They sound like monsters, man. And
they're
>> everywhere.
>> Yeah. Like you go to the every one of
these ranches out here is infested with
pigs.
>> Yeah. They're just destroying.
>> They have to hunt them. They bring in
people to hunt them. A friend of mine
has a huge ranch in uh uh out near Fort
Worth
>> and he brought in a bunch of Navy Seals
to kill pigs and they set it up like an
operation. They literally decided to use
it for training. Yeah.
>> And so they, you know, and you can blow
them up with like thermite. You can do
all kinds of Not thermite. What's that
[ __ ] that they use?
>> Tannerite.
>> Tannerite. That's it. Thank you. I've
seen that video.
>> Yeah. Oh, it's crazy.
>> Just fly flying through the air.
>> It's ridiculous. Yeah. But they you can
basically do whatever you want to them
because they they're just encouraging
people. They're saying, "Listen,
>> other than like declaring war on the
pigs and bringing in the military and
literally going through every state and
trying to kill them." Like, we've got an
economic war where these pigs are
destroying people's crops, right? I
mean, literally billions of dollars
worth of damage every year they're doing
to these farms. Yeah.
>> And they just keep there's more of them
every year. More of them every year.
They're not going to stop [ __ ] just
going to keep reproducing.
>> Just going to keep reproducing. And
it's, you know, really been a few
hundred years since they been introduced
to this country. And
>> boy, they're in every state now.
>> Yeah. I mean, and what are you going to
do? Just let them continue to roam?
>> They're in every state. They like New
York State and places like that. They
have wild pigs. How many states have a
wild pig population? Let's put that into
perplexity and see what they say. Our AI
sponsor, I I'm going to guess. Let me
say 30. I say 30 states have a wild pig
population. That's my guess. 30 out of
50.
>> Close.
>> Am I close?
>> Yep.
>> How many?
>> 35.
Uh figure refers to states with
documented feral swine presence. I like
that term. Feral swine presence. does
not necessarily mean that every one of
these states has a large self-
sustaining population.
35 states,
the population established numbers could
be lower. Some states have only have
occasional sightings, small localized
groups. Well, it really depends on where
they have farms. States with farms have
the real problem in the southwest,
especially Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana,
Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Mississippi,
Alabama, and South Carolina.
Yeah. wild.
It's It's such a crazy animal, too,
because they're, you know, they're so
smart. They're so smart and they're very
durable,
>> right? Yeah. Some of them get gigantic,
like thousand pounds, right? I mean,
you've seen
>> Not really. See, I used to think that,
too. Those are not really the wild pigs.
What those are is domestic pigs that got
loose.
>> And you know the thing about domestic
pigs, when they get loose, they kind of
become wild. their their nose lengthens,
their their fur gets like thicker and
>> bushier and their their talons or their
their rather tusks rather actually grow
>> which is nuts. Like they actually
metamorphosize.
>> That's I mean that's what like a a
fereral pig is, right?
>> Was a domesticated animal that became
wild.
>> The opposite. It was a wild animal that
they took and domesticated, but then
when you let them loose in the wild,
then they become wild again. Oh,
>> okay.
>> That's was weird. It's like they
originally were wild animals and
>> it's such a like crazy transformation,
you know, all covered in hair and big
tusks and stuff and then
>> like the pigs you see in the farm like
>> same animal.
>> Yeah.
>> What's nuts is it happens quick.
>> Apparently this the metamorphosis starts
to take place. Look this up. See how
long it takes before pigs start
transforming. I think it's like six
weeks or something crazy like it starts
to begin. Yeah.
>> Where six weeks where they have to feed
themselves where they have to forge for
themselves. They're like, "All right, I
guess I'm wild." And then they just
>> start the transformation. Yeah.
>> It's It's a very weird animal. I don't
know of any other animal that we Well,
we'll ask perplexity that I don't know
if there's any other animal that does
that. Domestic become feral in behavior
within weeks to months of escaping,
becoming wary of people, nocturnal,
mobile, and able to forge and survive
without care. But it does not literally
turn into a wild boar in one lifetime.
pop, but it does have physical um
changes.
What is the physical change?
Uh
[groaning]
radically different skull is overstated.
Adult pigs can become tougher, leaner,
hairier, and more elusive as conditions
change, but major inherited traits
become more common when the animals
survive and breed pass on uh
advantageous variance over successive
litters. Evidence on fereralization
emphasizes that these changes are shaped
by both environments and multigeneration
gener generational selection, not an
instant biological reversal. Not
instant, but they do physically change.
I don't think this is totally accurate,
but if you see the biggest pig that they
ever shot that was a wild pig, I think
it's called Hogzilla. Have you ever seen
that picture?
>> I think so. Yeah.
>> It looks like a domestic pig. M.
>> It looks like someone was feeding that
thing a lot and then it got out and
became a wild pig.
>> Right.
>> I don't know how big that was.
>> This is a photo of it, but the It's one
of those perspective shots where the
guy's like behind it.
>> Stand all far behind it.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Make it look 10 times larger.
>> Yeah. It But it looks cra See, there's
one of them where one of them is hanging
from a tractor.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And I don't give a [ __ ] how close you
are to that thing. That thing's giant.
[snorts]
>> Yeah.
>> Like how big is Hogzilla? That's like
some of the gators or the crocodiles, I
mean, that [clears throat] they're
finding in like Africa and stuff.
>> They have the pictures sit next to those
things and they're like
>> 20 plus feet long, you know, like
ridiculous.
>> Yeah, crocodiles get big. I think the
biggest ones they've gotten are like
close to 20.
>> See, that's the one thing about spear
fishing is
>> you there, you know, the sharks are
there, you know. Um,
>> I've have not seen I've seen leopard
sharks, but that's nothing crazy.
>> You never saw a great white?
>> I've never seen a great white. If you
do, would that be the last time you go
spear fishing?
>> I want to say no, but I don't know. I'll
have to get there first.
>> Hit one on the nose.
>> Yeah. If it's like getting crazy, it's
probably like, all right, I'm I'm cool
on that. But they [laughter] they have
uh they have all sorts of different
things like Ocean Guardian.
>> Okay. That guy's definitely behind that
thing. But that [ __ ] looks like he's
got tusks.
>> Look at that one to the left. The giant
36 stone.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, you that one too.
>> They said this one was maybe,200 lb. It
was originally thought of to be a hoax.
There's a documentary about it. This is
back in 2004 and five, though.
>> What's that one on the upper left?
That dude's resting his arm. Is that a
real picture?
>> That's like a little kid, though.
>> The upper But the upper left. The kid.
>> That's way too close for that guy.
>> Yeah, that one's closer than the guy.
The guy's behind it. But that kid.
>> Well, that looks like Oh, he's not
resting his arms on it. He's resting his
arms. Yeah, it is the same. That's a fat
[ __ ] though. Look at the size of that
thing. That looks more like a domestic
pig though. Like that one right there.
That's a good example. Go back up a
little so I could make it smaller. Yeah.
Look at his snout. Ah, it's actually
kind of long.
>> They're also still behind it, too.
>> Yeah.
>> Hard to tell how far, but
>> why do people do that?
>> Make it look cool, man.
>> I know. But it's big.
I like how that one says 36 stone.
[laughter]
That must be an English. Yeah, it's the
mirror.
That's crazy. That's a big pig, but it's
not like What is the biggest reported
wild pig that was shot in Texas? Let's
ask that. I think that's a porno. Turn
that off. [laughter]
>> It's on IMDb.
>> The other white meat.
>> Biggest one shot in Texas.
>> Yes. What is the biggest wild hog that
was shot in Texas? Let's guess.
I'm going guess like 500 pounds.
That's my guess.
That's just a guess though.
No official. Largest ever shot. Most
credible. 790 lb boore. Holy [ __ ]
Captured not shot. Near Deion in
Comanche County,
January 2015. Weighed on certified mill
scales. That's [ __ ] crazy big. 790 is
nuts.
>> [laughter]
>> That's so big.
[sighs]
You imagine millions of 790 lb wild pigs
running through this country.
>> Yeah,
>> that would uh not be
>> not ideal.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so never went never been hunting.
>> I've
shot some birds with a pellet gun or
something. That's about it.
>> But you want to?
>> I would love to. Yeah.
>> What what would you want to go hunting
for? Do you have a thing in your mind
that you think would be
>> um I think something like a like a deer
is probably like a good starting
starting point.
>> Do you know how to shoot a bow
>> or would you want to use a rifle?
>> I haven't shot compound too often. I
shoot recurve. Um it's definitely not
something I'm uh super practiced with,
but I'm pretty good with it. I went to
archery competition pretty recently and
did pretty good with it. So,
>> did you really with a compound bow?
>> With the recurve bow.
>> A recurve bow. Um don't hunt with that.
>> Yeah.
>> It's too frisky. You're not going to
>> That would be You got to get real good.
>> You'd have to. Yeah. A lot of practice,
>> a lot of hunts, and a lot of experience.
>> How far are you from San Diego?
>> Uh, hour, two hours if there's traffic.
>> There's a really good archery shop in
San Diego. I think it's Performance
Archery. Is that the name of the place?
Um, but it's one of the best shops in
the country. Okay.
>> Yeah. If you want to get a compound bow
and want to get someone to um really uh
make sure that it's sized correctly,
that the draw length is correct and
everything like that. Yeah. Performance
archery.
>> Why are you showing me
>> on the map where it is?
>> Yeah, just go back to the
>> Doesn't show you anything there.
>> Yeah, it's in I've been there before
with uh John Dudley. It's a great place.
Like really elite. 4.6 stars on Google.
Yeah,
>> it's it's you want to go to a really
good place, so they make sure they set
you up correct. Like that's a big thing
with bows. It's like um you know, I
couldn't shoot Jon Jones bow. You know,
he's really tall. I'm short. It the
length would be different. My where my
peep sight would be different. It has to
all be measured out to your size. And
everyone's different. So, it's
>> Yeah,
>> you'd have to really make sure that your
bow is set up for you correctly. And
it's just like martial arts in that you
want to learn correctly first. You don't
want to unlearn it and try to learn
something the right way because you're
always going to fall back on the way you
got comfortable with doing it the first
time.
>> Right.
>> So, that's a good thing to do.
>> Nice.
>> Set you up.
>> I've uh I shot a compound bow here or
there, but I like all that stuff. I'm
really, like I said, I'm I'm uh big into
continuing to learn lots of different
skills, especially in that realm. And uh
yeah, I'm I'm all about it.
>> Do you think do you think of that as a
way to like just advance your your
mental function in just in all of life
that will help your fighting? Like the
more different things you learn, the
more different things you do that you
can like take things from that and apply
it to fighting? [sighs and gasps]
>> Um
>> or do you just do it because you enjoy
it?
>> I have to say I I do it because I enjoy
it. Um, it's probably not directly
related to fighting, but more of the um,
self-reliance and the self-perseverance.
Like to me, like I'm like at home making
my own like Kaidex holsters and my
leather holsters and doing all that kind
of stuff is a good start. My I have this
old truck that I want to tear apart and
and learn how to work on it from the
ground up. Um, being able to hunt and
provide like just I'm always thinking
like when [ __ ] hits the fan, I better be
ready for it, you know? And so being a
martial artist, being a warrior
encompasses a lot of aspects. You know,
hand to hand combat is only one of those
things. There's a lot of different
aspects to uh self self-perseverance. So
I think about it a little bit that way.
Um I do it because it's fun and it's
it's just exciting to learn a new skill
and then have a an end product,
something that you made yourself.
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's it's always
a good idea to be self-reliant. And also
like if you have a garden, that's
another great thing. like have a place
where you can grow your own food.
>> Yeah.
>> So you're not getting any pesticides or
herbicides or [ __ ] on your food.
>> 100%. I mean the the end goal for me is
to have probably would not be the only
property cuz my wife just loves Southern
California so much. But, uh, Wyoming,
Montana, Idaho, go get a couple acres up
there, move the family, maybe some close
friends, and just have have our own
little self-reliant thing up there with
some some crop, some wildlife, the
ability to hunt up there on our land. A
lot of the stuff I'm seeing up there,
they have stocked lakes and the rivers
have fish as well. So, something like
that is
>> You're really thinking about a possible
catastrophe.
>> It's always on my mind. [laughter] No, I
just I want to get away from the hustle
and bustle of everything. Just be out
there in nature is really kind of the
the hopes for that. And
>> are you stuck in California because of
your wife and what you do outside of MMA
or have you ever thought about moving to
a different place to train?
>> Uh well, training is kind of the the
main thing that keeps me there honestly.
>> My my team is there, all my coaches are
there. Of course, I I can bounce around.
And
>> what gym are you out of now?
>> I'm all over the place. Yes, I trained
at the Den Training Center uh in
Yolinda. I trained at CSW Fullerton with
Eric Pollson and then uh
>> I love Eric.
>> Yeah, he's
>> Didn't your dad train with Eric?
>> He did. That's how I got over there in
the first place cuz Ben was Ben was
running the fight practice at CSW then.
>> Bro, Eric's an OG.
>> He's he's an OG, dude.
>> He's a He's such a cool guy.
>> Eric Pollson was I remember back in the
day when he had like a crazy ponytail
in the days where you could grab hair.
>> Yeah. Well, that's why that's why he cut
it off. I think it was Sean Sherik who
>> he was fighting him bare knuckle and
homie kept grabbing his ponytail and and
holding him there and that's the only
reason why. And I think right after that
fight, he went and chopped it off and
had short hair from that point.
>> I know it's nice to be good-looking with
long flowy locks, but that [ __ ] is uh
especially back in those days when you
when you could grab hair. You remember
Hoist Gracie versus KMO? Well, hoist had
a [ __ ] handful of hair when he was on
top and just blast them,
>> you know?
>> That's I mean to me, cut the hair, man.
Cut it or braid it.
>> Especially if it's the old UFC days
where you could actually grab hair.
>> Grab it. Yeah.
>> Yeah. You know, people complain all the
time about guys grabbing their shorts.
And it does happen all the time. Grab
guys grab shorts. I'm always like, "Why
are you wearing shorts?"
>> Right.
>> I don't know if you wear shorts. Do you
wear spandex? You wear shorts?
>> Spandex? Yeah.
>> Yeah. Why are you wearing shorts? Why
are you wearing anything someone can
grab?
>> And especially like everybody likes the
loose like like the high slate cut
shorts nowadays. So I mean more to grab
onto. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I just don't understand it. Here
it is.
>> Crazy head butts and [ __ ]
>> Yeah. Oh yeah, man. This is bare knuckle
headbutts.
>> Yeah. And then you could kick him in the
nuts and all that stuff back then,
>> bro. Wrestlers were a [ __ ] nightmare
when you could headbutt. If you go go
back and remember like the Mark Coleman
days, he would get in your guard and
headbutt the [ __ ] out of you,
>> right?
>> Yeah. And what how are you getting off
of the off your back against a high
level wrestler like that?
>> I know.
>> Grabbing his hair like it's a wrist
lock.
>> I know. It's crazy.
>> He had his hair and then uh
>> I don't know if Eric escapes or if the
time goes out, but Eric ends up
finishing him.
>> God, he got cut here.
>> What is this? A floor time count. You
had to get up if you're on the ground
for too long.
>> Is that what it is?
WCC. That's crazy.
>> I wonder like how much time Oh, it's
counting down.
>> I want to see what happens if it gets up
here. It's about to
>> Right. Do they stand him up?
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. Stand up. You get a minute on the
ground.
>> Crazy.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. But Eric Paulson is such a legend
of the game.
>> Oh, yeah. He is,
>> dude. His his [snorts] There's not a day
that I go in there and learn submission
flows from him that I'm not just like
blown away.
>> That's crazy. I forgot they did that.
>> Interesting. Well, I think back then in
the early days of fighting, there was a
lot of promoters that were trying a
bunch of different tactics to try to
make the fights more interesting,
>> right? That would be the only reason.
Like they don't want you to sit and lay
there anymore and get up and start
throwing face again.
>> I hate standups. I hate them. I hate
them with all my heart. I don't think if
in a fiveminut round you should ever be
stood up.
>> There's a there's a lot that can go on
there. I mean, especially if you're
holding position, you're regaining like
your your breath a little bit, you're
setting up a pass or something, you
know, it doesn't always look apparent to
the crowd or to the ref. So,
>> even if you could hold him down, like,
who cares? You could hold a guy up
against the cage, right? Okay. And all
you have to do is like land a few knees
and a few punches occasionally and
they'll let you stay in that position.
>> I feel like they're breaking that up
even more and more.
>> I don't think you should break up
anything. I think it should be reserved
for fouls. I think if someone commits a
foul, then you stand them up and then
you assess whether or not someone gets a
point taken away or whether or not that
person needs time. But if if it's a
place where you don't want to be and the
guy's putting you in a place where you
don't want to be, he's winning that
exchange, right?
>> If a guy can hold you down and you can't
get up, if you don't like it and you
can't get up, then he's winning,
>> right? Yeah.
>> We lose as an audience, the audience
loses.
>> 10 minute limit for ground time.
>> What fight was this? This is WCC.
>> What was it called? the
>> World Combat Championships. Is that the
one where Henzo Yes. Henzo Gracie fought
Ben Spikers? Do you remember that one?
>> Oh, dude. This is one of the reasons why
elbows to the back of the head are
illegal on his head. He [laughter]
played
>> cuz Henzo, this guy was calling Henzo.
There's you, dog. Look at that.
>> Look at that guy. Um, Henzo uh was uh in
his hotel room and this guy was calling
him every [ __ ] 10 minutes like to try
to wake him up and Henzo had to take the
phone and shove it in a drawer like he
was [ __ ] with him constantly and
Henzo got his back and elbowed the
[ __ ] [ __ ] out of him from rear mount.
>> So this isn't the same fight.
>> I think it is. Yeah, right here.
>> Oh, here it is. This is That's it. So
this Henzo gets his back and here it is.
Look at these elbows, dude.
>> Just ferocious elbows.
>> So this dude was a judo champion.
>> I was going to say, why would you wear a
ghee against
>> against a guy like Henzo? And Henzo
doesn't have a ghee on. And then Henzo
steps off and then gets on his neck.
>> Oh [ __ ]
>> Yeah.
>> Ow. That was crossing the line. Oh.
After he just elbowed the [ __ ] out of
him.
>> See that? You know what's funny is like
the 12 to six rule. Everybody uh
fantasizes about like how how much
better that is. And sure, you got some
cutting, but your your force that you
can deliver in my perspective straight
down with an elbow like that is so much
more tremendous than you doing this.
>> Yes. This was only, you know, why it was
outlawed, right?
>> Why?
>> Big John [snorts] McCarthy has got a
great story about this. When the ESPN
people or the athletic commission people
rather were first uh deciding whether or
not they were going to sanction MMA,
they had seen these ESPN karate breaking
demonstrations at like in the
morning WHEN THESE [ __ ] GUYS AND THEY
BREAK A BUNCH OF bricks and they're
like, "You have to outlaw that. That
should be illegal. People could die."
[laughter] That's literally what they
thought was the most powerful strike was
the 12 to6 elbow. So you couldn't even
do a 12 to six elbow standing, which is
crazy. You couldn't tomahawk. So you
couldn't come down with a tomahawk 126.
It had to be at a slight angle. It had
to be some kind of angle, which is the
[ __ ] dumbest thing ever.
>> Chop them in half.
>> This by far across like it's rotating
your shoulders to do it like a punch.
It's the most power.
>> Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you might get more
cutting. I mean,
>> it's available if a guy's doing this.
You know, if a guy's covering up like
that and you go straight down, it's a
good but to eliminate it as an option,
the only reason why was
>> missed this. So, the WCC had two
different brackets. Grapplers bracket,
striker bracket. Grapplers could be on
the ground for up to 10 minutes.
Strikers only had two minutes.
>> Submissions were illegal.
>> What? In a striker fight?
>> Yeah. So, it said and then the idea was
the winner of both brackets would fight
at the end.
>> Oh, that's so crazy.
>> Yeah. It only made it that one
tournament. That's so crazy. What year
was that?
>> Uh 94
or five 95 maybe.
>> Okay, so this is right after the UFC
burst onto the scene. That's UFC was 93.
>> It just says they were trying to be
different than the UFC with different
rules.
>> Yeah,
>> they're doing something like that again
where it's like striking only MMA where
I don't know if you go back to the
ground, they stand you back up or
something.
>> Where's this?
>> I don't know. I saw it on Instagram.
>> I mean, what is one FC's doing it the
right way where they just have striking
fights? Yeah,
>> they have MMA fights and striking
fights,
>> right?
>> Dude, I've been trying to talk Dana into
doing that for years, you know, because
I know they got into Zu for boxing,
which is great,
>> you know? I'm like, why not? Like, when
people boo when things go to the ground,
how about have striking fights? Just
have But in his mind, kickboxing in
America has a stink on it
>> from the PKA karate guy days,
>> you know, which just wasn't that good.
They weren't allowed to leg kick. It was
all above the waist,
>> right? And you know, there was great
fighters back then like Rick Rufus and a
few guys that were like really elite,
but for the most part, the skill level
wasn't that high and people never really
got into PKA karate. They never really
got into kick. It never really became
the kind of success that boxing was. And
so I think in his mind, that's how
people look at kickboxing,
>> right?
>> I think it's the most it has the most
possibility in terms of like a sport
that is not being taken advantage of.
like that has the most potential by far.
>> I mean, like you said, you look at the
one championship guys that are over
there kickboxing Muay Thai and they're
they're even doing hybrid fights for
that that DJ versus Rottweing
it up all crazy and
>> yeah,
>> I don't know. I mean, it's that's
getting pretty good traction over there.
So,
>> it is I I I heard, you know, they they
they have some difficulties and I hope
they do really well. The world needs
more organizations. The MMA world needs
a bunch of options,
>> right? And you know this PFL merger
where PFL has merged with um what is it?
>> MVP.
>> Yeah, Jake Paul's production company
MVP. Yeah, that's great. We need more of
that. Netflix is involved. Fantastic.
Need more. You need more more options,
more fights, and it's just going to make
more MMA fans,
>> right?
>> Just for me, when you see a guy like
that cat that I was telling you about,
Mega Med, who uh fought for PFL, like
more people need to know about these
guys. Like there's so many guys out
there that are [ __ ] killers, man.
>> No, that the talent pool is so deep.
Like outside of the UFC, it's extremely
deep. You got people out of coming out
of Russia, these Brazilians, like people
all over the world that
>> nobody's ever heard of just because they
haven't been on that big stage quite
yet.
>> So, I mean, exactly.
>> I think uh I think it would be really
cool that we did like champion versus
champion kind of fights.
>> It's never going to happen.
>> Yeah.
>> The UFC would never do that. Why would
What if their guys win? [ __ ] you. It's
No,
>> the the benefit of it for the UFC is
like it's so outweighed by the
negatives,
>> right?
>> Especially since they're number one.
>> Yeah.
>> And they're not number one like a little
bit, you know?
>> Like for the casual, MMA is UFC,
>> you know? It's like Q-tips.
>> It's not a cotton swab. It's a [ __ ]
Q-tip.
>> Yeah. From a business perspective, I
understand it. I think as a fighter, it
would be cool to challenge yourself once
you
>> once you get to that pinnacle if you
have title defenses and you're kind of
taking everybody out. It's like, hey, I
really want to be the best in the world.
Let me fight
>> all the top guys in the world. So,
>> it it may never happen, but
>> the only way it could happen if
something like MVP
um got to a level of prominence in the
public eye where they developed a roster
of champions that was equal to the UFC,
then it would make sense. Then no one's
losing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Because then it brings in
all the crowds from everywhere.
everybody gets
>> and then you do a co-promotion for like
a gigantic super fight like you know the
UFC's version of Floyd Mayweather versus
Manny Pacquiao, right?
>> You know, you have something where these
guys are so huge it's just like let's
make this happen. Everyone's going to
get rich. Let's go.
>> Yeah. No, for sure.
>> It has to be something of that caliber.
like it has to be [sighs]
a Conor McGregor level champion where
that you know people are coming from all
over anywhere to sign on to to buy the
fight at home or to show up in person
and I think you'd have to have two level
two guys of that level to bring some of
that traction to it.
>> Do you think Connor fights again?
>> Um I don't know. It sounds like he he
sounds like he's going to.
>> I think he does.
>> I think he does the one more and then
he's done with it. Yeah. I hope you know
it just that's what like you say guys
stay in it too long it's like and some
of these guys that's all they know it's
the only thing they've ever found
success in or found the ability to to
put food on the table or provide for
their families and so like what else do
they know they they gave everything to
fighting
>> well with Connor it's not that
>> but that's not Connor he's
>> he went from such a high place to like
doing what he's doing now in the
fighting world and it's just like why
even step in and do that anymore
>> I think it just cuz He still can for a
little bit more time. I mean, he's 37,
38 now. [snorts] Realistically, he's got
2 years left. Maybe, you know, if
everything if you really take care of
yourself and we both know he's
>> Yeah.
>> parted a little bit a little bit.
>> It's going to get back to that level of
training and like mindset to it though.
>> You know, it's very difficult to know
because he was capable of doing it at
one point in his life and it doesn't
mean that he can never do that again
just cuz he's rich. Right.
>> And I think you can underestimate a
man's character and say that he can't
ever reach those heights again.
[sighs]
>> A guy like Connor is a special guy. A
special it takes a special type of
person to put on a performance like he
did against Eddie Alvarez.
>> Like that was he was in the [ __ ]
Matrix, man. To be there live when he
was doing that. I was like, "Good lord."
>> That was special.
>> Yeah. He's pulling and Eddie Eddie's
like scanning his nose, blah blah, and
coming back
>> just countering instantaneous with
perfect precision. He was on fire.
>> If he can reach that height, as long as
his body holds up, but here's the the
problem is both of his ACL's been torn.
Both of his meniscus has been blown out.
You know, now with this the crazy one
with that crazy jumping roundhouse kick,
like who knows, man, right? Who knows
what he could still do?
>> There's I will never say never. It's not
that he couldn't do it, right?
>> It's just that will he do it? Will he
put that time and effort to to recollect
and to be of that zen of that bushidto
like he used to be? Because like the way
he used to talk and be philosophical and
stoic about training, the way he
explained it and delved into it, that's
what that's what drew people to Connor
before anything. The way he talked about
the warrior lifestyle and and he didn't
care about anything else and and he lost
his mind to it. Those are the things
that intrigued the people. this real
true warrior persona.
And
that that was the biggest question with
this last one. Everybody's like, "Oh, do
you think Connor is going to do it? Do
you think Connor?" And it was the same
answer. Do I think he can do it? For
sure.
>> But the problem with that is Connor's so
good at talking that he can convince you
that he's doing he's doing anything, you
know?
>> So, I'm like, I'm not there in his camp.
I'm not seeing what he's doing behind
the scenes.
>> I really can't I really can't make that
guess, honestly. Yeah. And much like
you, I want to believe. You know, you
hear him talk, you're like, I want to
believe. I want to see him pull it off.
>> Of course.
>> Yeah. We all did. You know, it's a he
was a very important part of fighting.
He was a really um a special person that
came along and brought a lot of
attention to the sport that would not it
wouldn't have been the same without him.
that whole era of time from 10 years ago
or whatever it was when he really burst
more than that but I think he won his
what year would he win his first title?
When was it against Jose Aldo? What year
was that?
[snorts]
>> At the end of 2015. It was December
2015.
>> Yeah. So 11 years ago really when he
became Connor, you know that one punch
knockout of Jose Alder was really when
he became that guy. I mean, he was huge
before that, but that was the one. And
then, of course, the Eddie Alvarez fight
was another one. I mean, it's 10 years,
man. That's a long time,
>> right?
>> A lot of booze, a lot of partying, a lot
of [ __ ] off, you know.
>> Yeah. A lot of luxury, you know, not
waking up. That's
>> Mhm.
>> It's hard to hard to go running.
>> Also, the difference, as you said
before, between 45 and, you know, and
going all the way up. Now, he wants to
fight at 70, you know.
>> Yeah. And he's also That's a
weight class of killers right there. He
was talking about Carlos Proes and these
and this that I'm like
>> Morales, bro.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Morales.
>> That guy's giant.
>> Those guys are all huge.
>> Huge.
>> Even Ian Gary, you saw him sparring
Connor and
>> Mhm.
>> He's far bigger than Connor is. Conor is
not
>> Connor is not that ginormous of a guy
from my understanding. He gets like
pretty like thick, but
>> he's not really like that that big of an
individual. Now 55 is really probably as
heavy as he should be fighting at
realistically when you think about those
guys.
>> Yeah. But then is he going to cut the
weight to do that? Like
>> it's hard.
>> Is he going to do all that stuff?
>> Well, if he doesn't want to do that, he
really probably shouldn't be fighting.
>> I mean, he the only thing with that is
that he can kind of pick who it is he's
fighting to an extent and so
>> he can get away with the weight class
thing a little bit.
>> He can he can do whatever the [ __ ] he
wants. But, you know, if I was in his
it's it's also at his age. Should he
even be cutting that kind of weight
anymore? Right.
>> Maybe just pick the the real fight is
170 with Michael Chandler. Like, have
that fight. You want to have one more
fight and go out, you know?
>> That would be beautiful for him. Yeah,
>> cuz Max is a tough It's a tough matchup
for him. It's tough if he doesn't get
Max out of there in the first two rounds
and good luck with that. Like, Max is
gonna I mean, Max's whole strategy was
we're going to drown him.
>> Yeah. That's like those right
>> that's what his thoughts were.
>> Yeah. And you Yeah, that's a tough one.
Max is uh as tough as they come and and
he's fighting the top of the top
consistently. So
>> yeah,
>> he's only getting better. He's only
getting more experienced. I think
Michael Chandler would be
great regardless. I think it draws the
crowd. I think it brings the energy to
it. I think that's a good skill level.
>> They went through the whole Ultimate
Fighter thing together and talked all
the [ __ ] to each other. It's like
>> it's crazy that Chandler sit sat in the
shell for like two years waiting for
that fight and then finally he's like,
"All right, I guess it's not happening,
>> right?"
>> Yeah,
>> he got [ __ ]
>> He did. And uh
Chandler to me is like he's he's very
physically tough. I just, you know, I
don't think he is as skillful as Max or
some of these other guys. So, I think
that's a great fight for Connor. I think
that's a good one for him to come back
on.
>> Yeah. I mean, Chandler's a wild dog. He
is a wild dog, but he relies on that too
much is what I've seen is like he comes
out all crazy
>> and it's just like dude like that's the
same thing. Start with a jab. Start Oh,
and it's who am I to say it quite yet.
You know, he's he's there doing his
thing. But from my perspective, you
know, there needs to be a little bit
more calculation there.
>> Well, it's not going to happen at this
stage of his career. But yeah, if you go
back and watch his Eddie Alvarez fights
back when he was fighting in Bellator,
those
>> Yeah, that was that's like a war back
and forth, you know, like both those
guys hit the canvas like insane
>> three or four times each, you know? So
>> those fights were insane.
>> Yeah.
>> Some of the like like for people that
like you want to see a great fight that
you probably never saw before. If you
only watch the UFC, go back and watch Ch
Michael Chandler versus Eddie Alvarez
one and two.
>> Those fights are nuts,
>> right? Yeah. Yeah, like I said, it's
just like a like a war
>> war back and forth. But that's that's
also Chandler is a very physical guy.
He's very explosive and just think like
back at his prime, you know, how much
more explosive he was, how much power he
had, how much energy he was delivering
to that fight. So, and that's that's why
he was performing like that. But like
like a lot of fighters, you know, like
the Roy Jones and stuff is you can't
always rely on that, especially in your
later years. Like that's back to this.
you got to be thinking with with this,
especially as your body starts to get a
little bit slower and not as explosive.
So, I don't know. He He's He's over
there getting after it. I mean, that GI
fight, he was definitely not on the
winning end of it, but he stayed in it
and and fought hard. And then
>> the Pouyet fight, he's had some great
fights.
>> He's had some great fights for sure. Uh
I mean, you fight a guy like Ruffy,
Ruffy's just on a tear right now. if you
don't take him down to the ground,
there's not a lot of people that beat
him on a pure striking match right now
anyway. So,
>> he's so good.
>> Yeah, he's See, that's another one
that's another like individual that you
look at it like like a work of art, you
know, someone who really understands
>> uh what it means to be a striker.
>> Yeah. And super creative. Like he does a
lot of wild stuff in sparring. There's
some awesome sparring footage of him
like pulling off crescent kicks when
he's like two inches from you.
>> Yeah. He's like back fist, spinning back
fist. He's artistic. I mean, he's very
creative when he's in there. It's
beautiful to watch. He's got a great
fight coming up. Um, who is he fighting?
Why did I blank on it? He's fighting
someone. Oh, Arman Sarukian.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Two or three weeks.
>> Yes. Arman Sukian. And they're fighting
in LA. That's a That's a good fight.
That's a really good fight.
>> And that's Yeah, that's that's the whole
thing with him. He's got to like make
sure he doesn't get taken down against
someone like Arman Sarukqi. That's uh
that's a tall task right there.
>> Yeah, absolutely. That guy's one of the
best wrestlers in the sport. It's
interesting to see him stay relevant
outside the UFC when the UFC hasn't been
offering fights. That's great.
>> Yeah,
>> very smart.
>> He's doing his thing.
>> He's doing his thing. It's very smart
what he's doing and and you know getting
into the RAF matches and doing a bunch
of different things on social media. He
just stays out there.
>> Yeah. He's hanging out with all the
Twitch streamers and stuff. Mhm.
>> It's not like he needs money, you know?
>> He's good on that part.
>> That's weird. It's weird for a guy to be
that good who's rich,
>> right?
>> He's so good. He's so tough.
>> Yeah. Two trains of thought there. It's
like you either have all the amenities
to do so or like you have all the
amenities. So then you're
>> you just you're a [ __ ] You don't need
to do anything. You just sit around. But
not him. He's [ __ ] shredded and he
grew up rich.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like stupid rich.
>> Literally Bruce Wayne. [laughter]
>> He's the UFC Bruce Wayne. He's Bruce
Wayne. I mean, he's always got Ferraris
and [ __ ] you know. You ever watch his
video series on YouTube? His training
series.
>> Um, which one? Like the
>> Yeah. So, they roll into a town like he
rolls into LA.
>> First thing he does is goes and rents a
Lamborghini.
>> So, when he shows up at training, he's
driving around a rented Lamborghini
everywhere. He's got that kind of
scratch,
>> right? [laughter]
>> And yet he's training like a [ __ ]
absolute animal. And he's a great
fighter, right?
>> I mean, he has no flaws in his game. no
flaw in terms of heart. He doesn't quit.
It's like that his first fight with
Islam was [ __ ] chaos. He gave Islam
one of the toughest fights of his
career,
>> right? I think that's I think that's
probably the closest I mean besides
obviously Islam's loss. Yes.
>> That he really got tested like that, you
know.
>> Absolutely.
>> And that was a short notice, wasn't it,
for
>> Arman? Yes. Yeah.
>> So, he's he's got all the skills. He's
he's a top contender for sure. And when
you think about uh Ruffy uh the the real
problem that he had in the UFC was that
one fight with Benoisen who got taken
down and
>> you know Benois is obviously very elite
grappler. So it'd be interesting to see
right
>> if he can avoid uh Arman.
>> That's that's the big question right
there for sure. Uh I I would think that
that's what his camp is surrounded
around is take down defense getting up
off the bottom.
>> Yeah. blocking some uh chokes and being
able to get back to the feet. I mean,
that's the thing. That's, you know, for
the MMA striker guys, it's not like you
have to be like the dopest wrestler like
all around, but you do need to be really
good at defending takedowns. Yeah.
>> And you do need to have one, two, three
escapes off the bottom, a sweep, some
kind of ability to stand up. Um, you
know, and then, yeah, get back to your
feet and make this make this a close
fight. If you get stuck on the bottom,
then you're you're done for. You're
screwed.
>> And I think for a lot of these guys that
are elite strikers, it takes that one
fight where you do get dominated on the
ground to really have a wakeup call.
>> And uh I think a good example of that
might be Sirill Gone when Serial Gan
fought Jon Jones. Yeah. You know, and
also Francis. Francis beat him up on the
ground as well, right? But the Jon Jones
one was, I think, a real humbling wakeup
call because Jon essentially avoided
getting hit completely, took him down,
and strangled him. Yeah. real quick,
>> right?
>> And then he's sitting there like,
"Fuck." And from that moment on, that
dude's been on a tear, right?
>> I mean, and you you see how he performed
on the White House lawn against,
>> you know, what we thought is arguably
one of the greatest strikers that's ever
fought in the UFC, Alex Pereira, and he
certainly was at middleweight and light
heavyweight, but
>> zero gone at heavyweight is something
special, man. Yeah.
>> There's a good example of a guy that you
were talking about who hits and doesn't
get hit. We've literally never seen him
get rocked,
>> right? Well, that's like which is crazy.
>> And he's he's got that savantish style.
I wouldn't say it's completely savant,
but he bounces. It's almost like that
karate savvat. He moves really well in
and out. Dude, if you can do that at
heavyweight, you're that big and you can
move like that, it's going to be very
difficult for a lot of those guys to
track you and keep
>> Absolutely. And you know, we were
talking about like point fighting, like
how point fighting has like such a like
I think it's it's a great skill to
learn. Another great skill to learn is
basketball. And that's what Sirro Gan
did. He played a lot of basketball. And
if you think about a big guy where
you're constantly exploding and moving
and all this different changing
directions.
>> Yeah.
>> That would definitely benefit you with
footwork.
>> Yeah. There's all sorts of hand eye
coordination. You got to be very quick
and yeah. Be able to move your hands and
your feet in succession. So
>> cuz look, nobody no heavyweights move
like that guy, right?
>> He's he is the gold standard for like
elite moving heavyweights in the UFC.
It's serial gone. And then there's no
close second. Like think who's a close
second at heavyweight.
>> You got to go back like that.
>> Travis Brown when he was in his prime.
Travis Brown when he's in his prime was
very light on his feet and moved very
well.
>> But I think Serial Gone is like a new
level, a new level of like elite mo
mobile heavyweight who also has
ridiculous knockout power.
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would I would
say the only person that rivals his
speed and agility would be maybe like a
Hokit. I don't I haven't really seen um
>> Hok's fast. But don't you think he's got
that kind of footwork speed that?
>> No, not at all. Like there's no
comparison on on the skill levels of
that movement in the striking.
>> He just has similar speed and agility.
That's all.
>> What Hogan has is elite wrestling
though. And uh a lot of [ __ ] talking.
>> Lot of [ __ ] talking. He gets people
riled up.
>> I don't know. I think I think that's
also something that Connor did really
well is that you got these guys going
into a fight going, I cannot get beat by
this guy. He just did. He said this and
this and this and I have all this
pressure and you could see it like you
saw it on Jose Aldo. Um
um what's the other Brazilian he fought?
Um
I don't know. It starts with a an R.
You've spot him before. Maybe it was a
second fight.
I don't know why I'm blanking on his
name. But
>> yeah, I know who you're talking about.
I'm seeing
>> he comes out. He runs out all crazy like
just everybody. everybody.
>> He gets them wild though.
>> If you have that added pressure, it's a
psychological effect. And I think Hok
does the same thing. You know, he takes
takes people out of their comfort zone.
Now everything's extra tense.
Everything's guarded. Every you're not
making any like
>> uh you're not taking any chances or
risks or stepping out of line. You're
just you're very very safe and secluded
and fighting. You know, you have to be
loose when you're fighting. You can't be
thinking that.
>> And you probably didn't sleep good the
night before cuz you [ __ ] hate this
guy.
>> Yeah. And then you're and then you're
like, yeah, riled up, pissed off. All I
want to do is take his head off. You're
not thinking about technique. You're
thinking about taking his head off.
That's it. One big overhand. It's like,
dude, when you fight angry, then you're
you had all this skill and your emotion
could take it like right out of you.
See, that's another aspect of of this
striking game, of this MMA game. Do you
think that that should be taught more
that the that the mental aspect of the
game of just being able to stay in your
own head and not get affected by these
outside influences, not get affected by
and understand what these things are? So
when you encounter them, you you know,
like have a coach, I think, that could
teach you not just how to fight, but
also how to maintain your peace of mind
and how to maintain your focus and not
get distracted.
>> Oh, 100%. I uh I don't know like
everybody's individual, you know. It's
hard to have a program because you have
guys that go to like uh athletic
therapists or whatever, like uh
performance therapists and they sit and
they do all that stuff.
>> I think a little bit is you're you're
born with it. You have the ability to
control like emotions better than
others. Some people go through again
back to like just hard life experiences
is is the best teacher. So, a lot of
people learn that way. Um I don't know.
I don't know what it is for like each
individual person. Me like the the third
person I train with is my boxing coach
Dale Royal out of his we literally train
out of his garage in his front yard, you
know. And uh like we we talk spiritually
beyond like just boxing. We talk about
the world. We we delve into the
spirituality of of the gospel and God,
what that means to us. Um he he's a big
time recurve guy. That's who I went and
did my archery competition with. He's
the big time leather working guy. Like
um and so we we just sit and talk about
like what it means to be a warrior, the
the philosophy and the psychology behind
that. What it means to control your
emotions when you're engaged with
certain aspects uh in life. How do you
come out on the other side of it? Like
every day. I mean oftent times we just
we stop and we're just sitting and
talking about things. And you know my
wife's always like you're just sitting
there talking hanging out with them.
Like this is part of training babe. We
talking psychology. you know, like it's
something we got to spend extra time
doing. And uh but I do like I get there
and we'll sit and talk for 30 minutes
sometimes before we even warm up. I'm
stretching and we then we get into he
starts wrapping hands. Like we're always
just like adjusting and constantly
talking about it. Um
>> so that's a great resource
>> to me. That's that's fantastic. Like
it's it's a it it makes fighting
spiritual to me. It makes it like it
takes it another level up, you know? And
so and then yeah, I mean I got him. We
really connect on a lot of things. Eric
Pollson is an absolute legend of the
game. I have a lot of experience that I
learned from him, a lot of mindset. He's
he's the same way. Uh Ben Jones, he's
he's the guy that you want to go into
battle with. He's the one that you guys
hear in the corner that's super loud.
He's the kind of guy that Yeah. He's
he's he's putting you through that
hardship mentally and physically in the
room. And uh if you can endure that,
then you can go out and fight. So, I
think there's different levels to it.
You got to get it in different ways, but
uh
uh it's interpersonal, you know, and you
gota you gotta delve into that and it's
got to be its own practice, its own
training for the day. So 100%. I mean,
yeah, if you get riled up by the
littlest thing and you go out there and
you try to go crazy now, you're just
you're just like a kindergarter in this
fight game. You've lost everything. And
emotion can do that to you. So yeah, I
mean, you you have to be on top of that.
It's you know, I I say there's so many
levels to this. There's the cardio,
there's skill set, there's
being relaxed, there's an emotional
aspect that you have to think about
like, you know, cuz everybody gets hit
and like what's the natural reaction?
I'm going to get you right back. But the
the best fighter can get hit and just
not even think about it. Not even get
riled up one heart, you know, their
heart their heartbeat doesn't even go up
one level. Bam. The game plan stays the
same. Bam, bam, bam. I'm intelligently
blocking. I'm doing my stuff. I've I've
never deviated from what I'm doing. And
if you could do that, beautiful. You got
it.
>> That's an awesome mindset, brother. I
can't wait to see you inside there
again. And thank you much very much for
being here. It was a lot of fun. I
really enjoyed it.
>> Thanks for having me. It was a great
experience.
>> My pleasure. Good luck in the future.
I'm sure I'll be calling one of your
fights soon.
>> Yes, sir.
>> All right. Beautiful. [music] Bye,
everybody.
[music]
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