Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe
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ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day.
Um I was like
there's only one way [music] to do this,
I have to just not drink for a while.
So, I took like 8 months off and then I
had like a margarita at dinner once. I
was like, "Oh, I miss this."
And then I had a glass of wine here or
there.
>> I was wondering how that was going to
hold up. Yeah. Yeah, but I but you're
not I know that you're not captured by
it. No, no, no. It was just
>> our religious observance requires it.
You require abstinence or drinking?
>> we drink. What when do you have to
drink?
>> Shabbat every come any Friday.
How much do you drink on Shabbat? I
probably have two and a half glasses of
wine. Is there like a number that you're
supposed to hit otherwise you're bad at
it?
>> to be what? Well, that that's Purim.
What is
>> We should get into Purim. We're getting
into it.
>> All right. Do we need glasses? You want
to have a drink?
Uh usually I
you you want I tend to go a while, so we
usually do that at the end. Well, let's
let's get some ice and some glass Are we
rolling already?
>> I've been rolling yeah. Okay. Let's get
some Tell Jeff to get us some ice and
some glass and a bottle of
>> say anything wrong. Um Buffalo Trace.
Do you want to wait till I get back to
start cuz we either haven't started or
we started. We started. [ __ ] it.
We started. Let's just roll. We'll get
Jeff to do it.
What's that?
I don't even have headphones. Are we
rolling still?
>> doing headphone [ __ ] We can.
Headphones, no headphones, I don't give
a [ __ ] I don't give We we mix it up.
Okay.
>> You know. What do you Do you Are you
more comfortable You got a nice head of
hair. What? See, for me it doesn't
matter. I feel bad when people like work
on their hair real good, like especially
ladies, and they get it all nice and
then they have to [ __ ] smoosh it with
this thing.
>> Okay, if you ever have that kind of
consideration for me, I'm going to be
very disappointed. I thought we were
closer.
Some people worry about that.
>> No, I worry about that. The gray.
That you have gray in your hair? Oh,
it's Yeah, look at it.
>> Well, you're like pretty dark for your
age. How old are you now? 60. Yeah, you
you [ __ ] dark ass hair for your age.
If I let my If I had hair and it grew
out like my side hair.
>> [clears throat]
>> It's mostly gray now.
Yeah. Yeah.
I I should have some gray hair in my
eyebrows a little bit. What's that? I
should have thought ahead like you did.
What, shaved it?
>> Yeah, shaved it when it everyone knew it
wasn't gray and then it's just normal.
Cuz like it's very clear if I shave it
now. I think you can avoid gray hair
with proper supplementation. At least
that is the the thought today. Okay.
>> That with enough zinc and copper
and that that somehow or another that's
involved in the diet. Oh my god. I'm
talking out of my ass here.
I don't know that much about um
what causes your hair to go gray. This
is Austin tap. Other than this is
Buffalo Trace. Older than America.
Really? Yeah. This is
a distillery from 1773
I believe they started.
Wow.
>> them apples, huh? It's like that Chinese
sounding beer, Yanjing or something.
Cheers. Cheers, my friend.
Buffalo Trace is like you Why is there
their beard really old? Beard really
old?
Um
They have a old beer. Yanjing.
Is it old as [ __ ]
>> Jamie knows everything. I feel
you know people 1829. You see. Oh.
I
People say I have this AI I'm using
Claude, I'm using
chat GPT. I use Jamie.
>> Jamie, right. For sure. I use Jamie cuz
he's way better than AI. He's way way
better than AI cuz he's kind of psychic.
You're a little psychic, right?
>> a little bit. Well, I mean I've listened
to you talk a lot.
>> [laughter]
>> My My theory is is that he also looks
ahead. He knows sort of where you're
likely to head so he's got it ready.
>> He knows how my goofy [ __ ] brain
works. Yeah, for sure.
Good to see you, my brother.
>> see you.
Hello, Joe. How was your your
What what what was it exactly? How would
you describe it? A speech,
a presentation?
>> a talk on dark energy uh to the
Karch group at the U Texas U Texas
Austin physics department.
>> Ah, this is what I wanted to ask you
about. Michio Kaku has been saying that
he believes that dark energy is possibly
something leaking in from another
dimension. Is that Look AT THAT FACE.
>> [laughter]
>> YOU
GO ON. HE GAVE A LITTLE SIDE EYE. WELL,
let's see what he says. James, see if
you can find that, please.
I think He said it was gravity leaking.
>> colonies and put them together as a kid
just to see what happens.
Did I? No, I never did that.
>> I did [clears throat] that. Uh why? Just
watch them fight?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Oh, you [ __ ] psycho.
>> Yeah, a little bit.
>> No, I never did any of that. You were
saying about Michio. Yeah, that he I I
just I didn't even read it. I just saw
it and went, "Oh, Jesus, I got to talk
to Eric about this."
>> [laughter]
>> Michio just dark matter isn't matter at
all. It's gravity leaking in from a
parallel dimension.
And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't
that wild?
>> [snorts]
>> Uh
What do you think about that?
>> when I was here and
I said, "Get Michio Kaku in here with
me."
>> Yeah. What What is it What is about
Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy. He
He is and was a brilliant guy. He's
decided to do something else and to be
entirely honest, I don't love going
after other named people. In general, my
stick is that I go hard after
institutions.
I'm a huge institutional supporter and
their worst nightmare in the current
world.
Individuals I don't like beefing with. I
I watch all of the energy
the beauty of life lost to beefing with
people. Michio Kaku is doing a
tremendous amount of damage
to theoretical physics. How so?
Um
Theoretical physics is in my estimation
the most beautiful, most powerful, most
economically potent thing you can do
with your life.
And we are the best.
The United States is, in my opinion,
the greatest nation in the history of
the Earth for theoretical physics.
Because we are cowboys, we are
irreverent.
We are the We are the people who
invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs,
the semiconductor.
Um
This is what we do. And we've lost the
ability to do it
at an at a level that I cannot believe
happened during my watch, my lifetime.
So, from 1984
to the present,
those 42 years
have been the greatest intellectual
implosion, I think, that I know of,
where people just got dumber.
And what do you think is the cause? I'm
going to distract this
human and Quantum gravity.
Quantum gravity did it? Yep. Mhm.
In 1984, there was a result,
and it's called the Green-Schwarz
anomaly cancellation.
And the guy that I've talked to you
about before in UFO context, the guy who
is Louis Witten's son, Louis Witten,
happy happy birthday, turned 105,
um was the anti-gravity guy from the
'50s. His son, Edward Witten,
decided that the 1984 Green-Schwarz
anomaly cancellation meant
that we should all all the smartest
people should pile into one narrow
sub-specialty,
and that that was the future.
And because he was so much smarter than
all of us,
people listened, and I didn't.
And Michio Kaku is part of his wave.
Almost all of the people that you've
traditionally had on in physics
have some connection to this. You So,
you've had on,
I don't know, probably
Sean Carroll,
uh
Neil de Grasse Tyson
Brian Greene
Nobody wanted to say what was happening,
which is that we were we were being
unraveled and destroyed. Our ability to
be the world's greatest theoretical
physicist was being
eroded year by year for 42 years.
>> it was the pursuit of string theory?
It's not string theory itself that's the
problem. String theory is harmless. It's
just a bunch of equations, a bunch of
ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in
many places. So
um
that's not an issue. The issue is the
exclusion of everything else.
And this goes into the name TOGIT or the
only game in town, t o g i t. Mhm. And
it's this idea that only we
the enlightened
can do theoretical physics and the rest
of you are
just doing finger exercises and you're
too stupid to know it. So specifically
like what is
what what's isolationist about string
theory? Like what is it about this one
particular theory that all this thought
has been pushed into that?
The claim is
that there's this thing called UV
complete physics. There's no way that we
can have a discussion about that
directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I
impose upon you to call up on YouTube
Wheel of Fortune
and then use I've got a good feeling
about this.
I can explain it to you. Wheel of
Fortune I've got a good feeling about
this?
>> a good feeling about this.
>> Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of
Fortune?
>> It'll be over briefly. It's very very
quick. It's about a minute and a half or
something. And
the key point is it's a tight analogy
for the problem faced in physics that
anyone can understand. So I don't people
think I try to make things complicated.
I really try to make them
understandable, but what I do is I talk
about things
I don't know that you've ever had anyone
talk about UV completeness on the Joe
Rogan show.
>> I don't believe so. Yeah. Yeah.
>> said, okay, put your headphones on.
>> Yeah.
Well, you're not going to be able to
hear it unless you have headphones on.
I know it like the back of my hand.
Wheel of Fortune. We need a phrase this
time. That's the category for this
puzzle, and it is A PRIZE PUZZLE.
>> [applause]
>> GO AHEAD, RICK.
GLADLY.
>> [applause]
>> AND WHAT DO WE GET HERE? 500. R.
WELL, you'd think there'd be an R in
there somewhere, wouldn't you? Oh, Rick.
>> [applause]
[applause]
>> L. Uh one L.
>> [applause]
>> It's really fun.
What's that? Can I solve?
Okay.
>> a prize puzzle. Yeah. I've got a good
feeling about this.
THAT'S RIGHT.
>> [screaming]
>> THAT'S INSANE.
>> [applause and cheering]
>> THAT LADY'S A WIZARD.
That lady is what I want to do with my
life.
That is what great physics looks like.
It's totally irresponsible.
>> [snorts]
>> And you know, Pat Sajak is like trying
to
ask her, like, how'd you do that? And
she says, well, I got a good feeling
about this. You know, and the the funny
part about it is you can figure it out.
The if you if you go back, can Jamie,
can you show the board right there?
Yeah.
So, clearly that apostrophe is a huge
clue, right? So, the idea is that if you
read that property, is it isle?
Is it I've?
Right? And then there's no R. Um
so
think about all of those blank squares
as orders of magnitude that you are away
from the energies that would allow you
to do experiments that would explain
physics. And think about the apostrophe,
the L in that pattern,
as well as the fact that it there's no R
as the standard model of physics.
So, right now, what you have is a debate
about whether or not we should buy more
and more letters with higher and higher
energy.
Or, like should we build bigger
accelerators and spend more treasure
trying to collide particles?
Or should we just Caitlyn our way out of
this? So, Caitlyn Burke is my model of
what I think we're supposed to be doing.
So, an exceptional mind with an ability
to see or propose things that other
people aren't seeing. How I guarantee
you that if we studied this, if we spent
a a month with the world's smartest
people on this puzzle,
we'd learn that there are certain things
that were present that, you know, that
that that the frequency of certain the
fact that there's a single letter there
that almost certainly is I or A. She she
took a tiny number of clues.
But, here's the really important thing.
Jamie, can we show the the the filled-in
puzzle?
So, you'll notice that the word this
could be changed to that because the
only letter that's been excluded is an
R.
Mhm. So, that is what the issue of
unique UV completion is. In other words,
you a unique UV completion would say
there's [clears throat] only one phrase
that fits there. She guessed. She
couldn't have known it isn't I've got a
good feeling about that or I've got a
nice feeling
about this or that. So, it's actually
not
um
or I'll get a good feeling about this.
But, all of those were much less
probable
because
they're just not as natural.
So, this is a combination of science,
guesswork,
and raw courage. Like the the the most
marvelous thing about that exchange is
she says, "I
Can I solve?"
And there's like he's not even sure he's
hearing her properly.
And then finally he says, "Okay." That's
that's gatekeeping. Can I put this ar-
article on the archive? Can I give a
seminar in your department?
I want to solve the puzzle. And a lot of
what we're arguing about is that the
string theorists are the only ones who
have the right to try to solve the
puzzle
at the moment. So, imagine that somehow
there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick
who guesses that there's an R. Imagine
that he's the only one allowed to solve
the puzzle. And when she asks, "May I
solve the puzzle?"
No, no, no, you can't. That's
pseudoscience. You're a charlatan.
That's [ __ ] you know,
that is crank physics. Mhm. So, that's
what the problem that we're facing is is
that we've got one group that got
control of the gatekeeping
who is very good at mathematics,
extremely bad at physics.
And they've redefined what physics is
and what good science is, where they're
the only ones who are guessing the
puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle.
And everyone else is like Here's a crazy
story from yesterday.
I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a
talk in the physics department even
though
any normal person would say that that
happened. And I wasn't allowed to do
that when I visited a physics
institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed
to say that I was visiting for a week.
Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a
seminar that lasted 9 hours. But you
just did.
>> Yeah.
Are you a lawbreaker? I'm breaking the
rules now because I've Now I've had it.
I agreed I agreed to not do this. And
I'm And with these missing scientists,
I've changed my mind.
>> [snorts]
>> I'm not going to deal with these people
anymore. And whatever is going on with
science and the suppression of different
ideas
um is terrifying.
Right now we have a situation. I You
know, I gave a talk at the University of
Chicago. There's no record of it.
Who's asking you to do these talks and
who's asking you to not give a record?
You don't have to name names.
>> Yeah, particular people.
In general, the funny part is that the
people who asked me to give talks in the
physics departments
are the most courageous person in each
department.
So, the problem is that the person that
I you you end up feeling resentful
towards. How dare you tell me that I
can't give this talk in this department
officially
is the person who's arranging for your
stay
and is arranging for the the room.
And they are under the most pressure
from the institution. So, the
institution is forcing them to say
you you're allowed to do give the talk,
but you're not allowed to talk about it
on social media, you're not allowed to
Right. advertise that you're doing it,
you're not allowed to say that you're
doing it. So, in this case in the case
of of U Texas physics department, I was
allowed to say I'm speaking in the Cart
group seminar.
It's like a condom to make sure that the
physics department doesn't get pregnant.
Well, isn't that really bizarre because
University of Austin, Texas was supposed
to be a university that fixed all the
[ __ ] that was wrong with other
universities? It's much much more insane
than that. This was the home of Steven
Weinberg who moved from Harvard to Texas
because the money the oil money was used
to buy brains.
So,
heart basically Texas raided Harvard for
people like John Tate in the math
department, Steven Weinberg who was the
probably the greatest living
uh theorist. And that was the
continuation of the Bryce DeWitt group
from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was
set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew
Bahnson.
So, you're right next to
an amazing physics department
with a crazy history.
Um that in fact touched anti-gravity.
This is one of the one of the
tiny number of places that has a
a real legacy in that department. And I
I was speaking there on gravity.
On dark energy.
And
I Look, I've been lying my whole life
about my relationship with the physics
world because of this pressure.
They can't listen to me if I say I'm a
physicist, so I say I'm an entertainer.
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah.
But then people say, "Well, why would
you do that? Why would you say that
you're an entertainer when you obviously
are conversant in all this stuff?" And
the answer is, "I don't want to die. I
don't want to lose my ability to enter a
physics department." So, I take on this
completely wrong persona.
And you know, I have the emails. You're
not giving a talk, you're having
conversations in room 5308.
It literally says you're not giving a
talk?
>> I could read what it is that they write
to me. So
>> Why but why what is the benefit of this
formal declaration or this formal
designation of the way you're talking?
So, when I was at a physics institute in
Canada
I
I was told, "We're worried that you're
going to use it to legitimize yourself."
It's like
I'm going to do that. Of course I'm
going I have a PhD from Harvard, you
stupid I I mean
Like
you guys imagine I'm I'm I'm I'm a
podcast guest?
This episode is brought to you by
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Right, just a regular dude with some
wacky ideas. Right. And so the idea is I
have to play that character
as opposed to I have
>> Legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre
phrase. Tell me about it.
>> That's cuz it's assuming that you're not
legitimate.
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I
don't think you're understanding this.
But no, I am understanding it. But but
from their perspective, saying that
you're going to use it to legitimize
yourself and your ideas is a really
crazy way to phrase it. Because like
you're they're acting from the
assumption that you're not legitimate.
>> So that's their
You remember when like I think Reagan
thought I forget who it was. Reagan
thought they were recallable missiles.
Where you could turn them around?
>> Right. Sorry, we changed our mind. So
Like a base jumper who's also a suicide
jumper.
>> [laughter]
>> On second thought.
>> [laughter]
>> Halfway in, he's like, "Ah, [ __ ] this.
No, I like I like this."
>> Yo, a lot of these people who survived
jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, they
learn like I I love life. Yes. Yes, most
of them.
>> They're reborn. Yeah. Um so what I would
say is
the problem is that I am
I don't I don't I don't
This is not a boast, as you know I don't
usually put my credential first.
I'm probably the most blue chip
defector from the institutions. Mutant
mutineer, let's put it call it that.
Um I have a I have essentially perfect
credentials.
And that's the problem.
So it's not a question about you're
going to legitimize you. I already
legitimized myself by
Harvard PhD, MIT post doc, NSF post
doctoral fellow, ONR top in the country,
Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in
math, physics, economics departments.
I'm so bulletproof.
So, that's the problem.
>> That's the problem. That's the problem.
It's not that you're a cook that
>> That's what I was what I was trying to
say, you didn't understand. No, I do
understand. I just don't understand why
they want to do that, too. That's what's
bizarre.
>> narrative
Okay. I am I am the greatest danger
to the narrative.
I'm I'm the most followed mathematician
in the United States, maybe the world.
Hannah Fry maybe
above it.
That danger to the narrative
is the problem. Well, specifically for
people that don't know what we're
talking about, what is
to make this a stand-alone show, the
people that not aware of your work, what
is it that about you and your ideas
that they are so hesitant to platform?
Or legitimize, or why you're such a
danger. Okay, so in 2001
I said mortgage-backed securities were a
great danger to the world. I have one of
the first published papers on the danger
of illiquid of the pricing of illiquid
securities.
Uh
I went on Chris Williamson's show and he
asked me who's going to win, Biden or
Trump. I said you don't even know
whether Biden's going to make it to
November. I said that that people
representatives of the Democrat Party
reached out to me and said stop talking
about Biden's dementia.
You need your affirmation that you're
seeing something real. We've put in
three people
uh as a committee to replace the
president. And I I said like, I'm
supposed to feel good about that?
Um
so I keep
>> They Well, they told you they put in
three people?
>> They put in a committee of three people,
and if you knew who those people were,
you'd be pleased as punch, so shut up.
That's what they said to you?
>> Yeah, correct. You would be really
happy, so shut up.
>> Yeah. They didn't even tell you who the
people were?
I think that they did, and I've
conveniently forgot them. Though, one of
them might have been the chief of staff.
>> [laughter]
[sighs and gasps]
>> Wow. So That's like But I say But I say
this, right? And I'm not trying to
I mean, I keep lots of secrets that
people ask me to keep that I should
keep. Things that having to do with
national security, for example.
But these people are incompetent.
And they're a danger to us. And right
now that the string theory narrative is
a complete danger. It's not string
theory that's the problem. It's the It's
the only game in town.
And so, you know, there was a
Look, people are willing to spend their
entire credibility
just to make me go away. Could you
briefly just describe like what What is
the So, there's not a problem with
string string theory? Or is string
theory not complete? Or is string theory
readed
Has it reaped actual results?
Mathematically, it's reaped results. And
string theorists have occasionally
done really great work in in a subject
called quantum field theory. But quantum
field theory isn't about the quantum
field theory of the world.
Quantum field theory is like calculus.
It's something that's very useful. And
it it grew up in physics.
But we've now found out that quantum
field theory has to do with pure
problems in mathematics that have
nothing to do with physics.
And
what they haven't done is they haven't
dealt with the physical world. So, if
you take physics, why why do we care
about physics so much more than really
almost any other aspect of the sciences
other than biology?
I had to give a talk at the New York
Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys.
And I I put it on the slide as uh three
things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom.
Easy to remember. Boom is weapons.
Physics will create weapons that
you'll
dwarf every everything else.
With the possible exception of
biologicals.
Uh
zoom uh vroom is energy.
And the story of energy is basically the
story of prosperity and control. If you
look at wealth and the amount of fossil
fuels burned, it's more or less like a
one-to-one correlation as to which
nations are rich and poor
per capita. And zoom is everything else.
It's propulsion,
it's computation,
it's communication.
And those things, if you if you take
them together,
um more or less define the economy and
the world order. Physics is
the center of
what makes us
modern humans. And
it became too dangerous in the 1950s.
Even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons
are extremely bad, but they're not
hydrogen bombs.
Um somehow in November of '52 everything
changed. And
we became
we became too dangerous. The the
community of physicists is the most
powerful group of people made into
completely
uh ineffectual humans.
And do you think this is by design?
Partially. And what what what was the
purpose of it? By by saying that you
became that physicists became too
dangerous, the ideas became too
dangerous. Is the idea that the weapons
would become so immense and powerful
that they had to do something to stop
and curb that? Well, we didn't know how
to control it, right? So, in other
words, for example, in the in 1940,
we set up something called the reference
committee, which I'm sure your listeners
have never heard of. And the reference
committee lived inside of the National
Research Council. Now, why was it
important?
Because chain reaction physics was so
hot.
Once the neutron was found, right? So,
think about neutrons as bullets.
Um
they can go right into the middle of an
atom because they're they're not
positively charged, so they're not going
to be repelled by the nucleus.
And they can bust apart atoms that are
base barely being held together and
that's why you you get bullets begetting
bullets begetting bullets and that's
what a chain reaction is.
The people who were doing that in the 40
in the 30s
suddenly found that when they mailed off
a paper to a journal
if they weren't part of the secret group
in Los Alamos
their paper got held up
and sent back for revisions.
And there was no money in it. We we
secretly set up this thing to shunt real
research
into the National Research Council. I
think this was organized by a guy named
Breit, B R E I T.
And
that was the beginning of this whole
peer review control mechanism. And this
control, do you think is this ego-based?
That the people who are the gatekeepers
want to remain in the position of
We all want to survive, Joe. I mean,
this is a real problem. So, you and I
can hate on the institutions all we want
from the safety of the JRE.
But
what are you going to do when it becomes
really, really easy
for people to commit
like mass [clears throat] murder. If you
think about all the really bad math like
the the Vegas shooting that never really
got sorted out.
It's very hard to kill large numbers of
people using things like bullets.
If you want to really kill large number
of people, you're going to go to
biologicals and you're going to go to
nuclear.
And what happens when that becomes easy?
Like maybe it's a lot easier to build
these weapons than the way we currently
do it. Right now, we're we're uh
bottlenecked on things like centrifuges.
And by the way, who knows what the next
innovation in physics is going to bring?
So, I always say this thing about if
you're not tracking everybody at my
level
what are you doing as an intelligence
service?
Is this part of your concern about the
missing scientist?
>> Yeah, yeah, of course.
>> Yeah, so the missing scientist narrative
um for people that aren't aware of it, I
think they're up to 15 now, and a lot of
people say that some of these
connections are baseless and that some
of them it's just
>> really up to 15. No, okay. So, what do
you think we're actually up to?
>> I don't know. Probably
five or six. But, I saw someone online
do a breakdown of it, and essentially
they were saying that the odds of this
being a coincidence are off the charts.
The the people that are all involved in
very specific types of technological
technological research,
different things that are top secret,
that all of these people either wind up
missing, There's a lot of murder in math
and physics, first of all. People don't
really appreciate that.
Um you know, the Unabomber was a famous
PhD mathematician.
Uh
He's a big story, though. There's
there's a lot of them.
>> There was a guy named Cantor who
uh broke into David Rittenhouse
Laboratories in the University of
Pennsylvania, where I was an
undergraduate, and shot up a seminar.
Um
there was uh
you know, this
situation in Iowa, where a relative of
mine got a seat in the physics
department um because somebody was
killed by one of the graduate students.
I think it became a movie, like Dark
Matter.
So, there's an incredible amount of
murder.
Uh the ball-peen hammer uh killing of
was it Karl Delue by
um
uh Streleski at Stanford. So, first of
all, there's just a lot of death because
mathematicians and physicists are
somewhat close to unhinged.
And it's it's a really nasty There's a
lot of nasty culture, and sometimes it
becomes violent.
>> Why do you think they're close to
unhinged?
You spend that much time in your head.
I I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded
as I am.
>> [laughter]
>> No, seriously. You're just way out in
the stratosphere.
I I I completely forget who I am, where
I am, that I'm even a human being. That
When you're using your body as an
instrument as you as you do
um in combat sports and training, you
become a different thing.
You know.
You know that archery thing where you
have to Mhm.
twist your arm.
A lot of people don't know that they can
do that initially. Like it's just a
small thing like that. Or you know how
>> about archery thing that you twist your
arm?
If you have an old style bow, you often
get burned by the Oh, that you have to
twist your arm like that so that you
don't
>> Yeah.
>> you don't like this and get hit.
>> Right. But but you you you don't see
See, but then you twisted your your
wrist. You keep your wrist straight.
Just I don't do that kind of archery.
That's why I'm confused.
>> Well, okay. Sorry. You do real This this
kind. Yeah. You keep your hand like
that. Okay.
Um Well,
>> issue. But like if you're if you're if
you're a sniper, you know, there are all
sorts of things about breathing and and
your eye how you adjust your eyes and
>> Right.
You use your body as an instrument as a
mathematician or a physicist. One of the
reasons that I I wish I were in better
shape is that in order for me to keep my
mind in a particular way, I have to not
think constantly about suppressing food,
you know. So what you're doing a you're
doing a very unnatural thing. Mhm. And
that unnatural thing
uh
not everybody can handle it.
Right. I see what you're saying.
>> And we snap. And also
our minds are more perfect. The
messiness of the world and the
perfection of our minds is at odds with
each other.
And I love disappearing into math and
physics because it's perfect.
>> But how's that lead to violence?
Um you're upset because people are
lying, you know. You're you're like the
the Unabomber had a had a really
interesting points.
He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really
correctly
You know, he has a
an amazing story called Ship of Fools. I
highly recommend anybody read it. Just
the way Charles Manson's Look at Your
Game Girl is a great song.
>> [snorts]
>> Yeah. It's a great sign.
Okay. Yeah. I Um
We're not comfortable in part with
coming back to the
the half measures and the the special
pleading that sort of
characterizes normal life. So,
to get back to the missing scientist
narrative, um
I don't think there are 15 missing
scientists in this data set. That's
[ __ ]
It seems like they're adding as many as
they can. Yeah, they're
They're trying to make connections that
don't seem to add
>> It's It's like It's like the
junkification of the UFO narrative. All
of these narratives have a junk to them
so that I believe a lot of the junk is a
fix to the narrative so that those who
want to follow the institutional
instruction to ignore the fact that this
is happening can point to the
crappiness.
Right? And so, that's the out.
And the really difficult thing that you
do, and you do really well, is you try
to
piece together, okay, what's [ __ ]
what's real? There's a lot of real in
the UFO story and there's a lot of
nonsense. There's a lot of real in the
COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The
same thing is true for physics. But,
physics is more dangerous.
And the fact that we're not tracking
Like, I always wonder why they allow me
to come on the
JRE
and say stuff.
I know a lot of stuff that I don't know
what it unlocks.
And
>> Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who
comes on here. Sure, but China is
smarter than And by the way, the LLMs, I
mean, look, there are a lot of threads
here.
To get back to the physics, um and I'm
giving a talk tomorrow on at the at the
U Texas Austin on supporting science,
math, and physics and renewing our
commitment to it.
I don't want to give the impression that
it isn't dangerous or that the
gatekeeping is stupid. It's really
important to do great gatekeeping around
mathematics and physics. It's
cryptography, it's weaponry, it's
propulsion.
It's, you know, a sudden change in the
world economy.
Um if you figured out how to do fusion,
it would have immediate geopolitical
results.
So, these specific scientists that are
missing,
whatever the number is, five, six that
you think are legitimate, what what
specifically are they working on that's
so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy,
obviously, is at MIT, is anybody who
might I I don't know. Fusion isn't my
thing, plasma is my thing.
Um
but that is
unquestionably
dangerous if you imagine how much
depends on oil. And is there is it a
good assumption that if you have one
incredibly brilliant person that's at
the head of this thing and they make a
breakthrough, if you kill that guy, the
whole thing is in disarray because the
people that are under him,
whatever people he has working with him,
aren't as fully immersed in it as he is,
that you can kind of like handicap a
problem?
It's like let's say if there's
>> five people.
>> It's an energy thing. Let's say if it's
an energy thing. Let's say if someone
has some new technology that's going to
completely disrupt the fossil fuels
industry and they go, "Listen, we can
kill this [ __ ] guy and it's still
coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it
by 10 years and make $15 trillion." So,
this is the question about the far right
tail, like the extreme right tail of
human intelligence and ability.
And if you think about certain areas
where you have a dominant figure,
uh Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for
example,
what percentage of all tricks derive
from Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have
stopped skateboarding, but you could
certainly have held it back by getting
to Rodney Mullen.
Right?
Um when it comes to, you know, guitar,
the the amount of impact that uh Jimi
Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had is just
wildly disproportionate.
You know, when when when I was doing my
podcast, I was really excited to do
Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen
together.
I wanted to get them, you know, totally
different sports, but um
those two guys are sort of the same.
They just created so much vocabulary you
can't even imagine it. And
>> Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit
he deserves, either.
Oh, tell me. Talk to me. Well, it's just
Van Halen
became Van Hagar
and it became a different kind of music.
And I think a lot of the original
hardcore fans left, but a lot I think it
got more popular with Sure. Sammy Hagar,
but it was a different kind of music.
And not that it's bad, but it's
different. And then I think a lot of
people just went, "Nah."
But like if you go like to
you know, some of the like big Van Halen
with David I think Van Halen with David
Lee Roth in his prime was a literally a
perfect band. It was phenomenal. That
was They were the [ __ ] when I was in
high school. I mean, it was everybody
had Van Halen on their notebooks. They
made the VH
>> it. They were awesome. And they were so
good. [snorts] And Van Halen and Eddie
specifically could shred so hard and
some of those classic riffs.
I just don't think in the mainstream
world he got the credit that he
deserves.
I see it differently. Well, people
mention Clapton, who of course is a
great wizard.
Always it's number one is Hendrix. Most
people have Hendrix as number one
because he was so revolutionary. Well,
nobody's going to say Allan Holdsworth.
Yeah, I don't know who he is. Exactly.
Yeah. I mean, my my my point is is that
um
David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from
becoming Allan Holdsworth.
And
that's Who is Allan Holdsworth?
Oh, it's interesting. Allan Holdsworth
Like if you talk to your hot [ __ ]
guitarist friends,
they will very often
Like everybody will just pause and say,
"Well, yeah, I don't That's Allan
Holdsworth."
Really? Yeah.
And it's sort of like listening to a
modem for normal human beings.
Right? Um that's why it's just just not
popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was this
>> he play with?
I don't know. Allan Holdsworth. Just by
himself? Yeah. And can we just actually
weirdly put Allan Holdsworth just like
choose something with a
>> Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to some of his
music.
>> So we might have We'll edit it out of
the episode because otherwise we'll get
dinged on YouTube.
>> Okay, why don't we Okay, but like
>> it. We'll play it and then we'll just
come right back to it.
>> All right, let's do that. Give me some,
Jamie. Was it Is there any specific song
that you'd like? No, it's all
It's all mind melting.
>> So I can see if He's got
>> [snorts]
>> anything popular we might have known so
I could tap tap into that, but I don't
see nothing.
Like Is there a song that you like that
you could recommend? I just listen to a
certain amount of it and then I don't
listen to it again. I'm not at that
level where I need Allan Holdsworth.
Okay. What does that mean? No, what does
that mean?
>> [laughter]
>> Thank you, Jamie.
I'd rather see some guy flying through
the air with like
>> [laughter]
>> his pants on fire than listen to Allan
Holdsworth.
Okay, here we go. Live in Tokyo. 1984,
live in Tokyo.
>> Tokyo Dream.
See if you can use the histogram to
figure out like where the nerds are
going.
Histogram? Yeah, it shows you like where
people spend their time on a video. Oh,
really?
I would go right into the middle of it
or something.
I'm already checking on what he's doing
there. Oh.
This concert sell out or Nothing's going
on right now. Put it in the middle,
Jamie.
What is Is that a uh
You've heard this before, though? Yeah.
What Is that a bass? What is the other
guitar I'm hearing?
Cuz that is not matching up with with
that bass player seems to be playing. Do
you hear that extra guitar?
That's slower
>> [music]
>> and off time.
I don't know.
That's a bass, I think.
So
>> It doesn't sound like he's playing it.
>> My My guitarist friends would just
salivate.
And I'll look at them
It wouldn't help.
I'll [laughter] look at I mean, no
offense, but it's
It's [laughter]
can't be very
It sounds like jazz, right? So, it's
like jazz guitar. Like, there's no
there's no singing.
>> sir.
>> [laughter]
>> If I put on If I
No more Jerry Jerry.
I've had it.
>> [sighs]
>> Oh, Jerry. [snorts]
Jamie, you were going to have so much
nerd hate. I mean, I've never said
anything people will agree with me, too,
I believe.
>> 100% More will agree with you.
That was my point. I think David Lee
Roth had some
had some comment about if it weren't for
me, the brothers would be
playing biker bars in the far valley or
something, you know? And so David Lee
Roth came up with what we would call the
syntactic sugar, the thing that made Van
Halen
fun and listenable and danceable. Like
Dance the Night Away. Yeah.
I didn't like Van Halen. I loved that
song.
>> What? I never liked Van Halen.
>> Oh, how dare you?
>> I loved Eddie Van Halen and I loved that
song.
>> I didn't You want to I'm even
embarrassed about that. The one I'm
embarrassed about I completely dismissed
AC/DC in real time because I'm an idiot.
Oh. I've never been more wrong about
something in my life.
>> How did you dismiss AC/DC?
>> Good question.
They had a dumb thing going on with the
school pants and the dirty deeds done
dirt cheap and
>> [ __ ] song. What great song. Well, you
know,
like musically Hot for Teacher is an
amazing composition. Yeah. Unbelievable,
right? But it's the key thing that they
figured out is making things marketable.
Right. Right? And that's David Lee Roth.
And I think it's David Lee Roth.
>> Yeah. And [clears throat] but he was so
charismatic and did jumping splits.
Yeah, he was a man. Amazing. Amazing.
And he had a
a secret weakness for old-timey music.
Right.
>> Right? Like Just a Gigolo, Ice Cream
Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's
like a almost a throwback to 1930s for
you know, even earlier, vaudeville. He's
an odd guy. Have you ever met him? I've
wanted I've wanted to so badly. I'm so
jealous. But I I don't think you ever
really get to him.
It's always the show.
Like in podcasts, it's a little like I
really enjoyed talking to him, but it's
a little odd.
>> I've seen I didn't love the way he was.
My my feel like I would I would go the
Jewish angle. I
I would connect to him based on shared
cultural heritage, but
what I think about Eddie
is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist.
He was an electronics guy. He was a
keyboard player. He was
handsome as the day is long,
bursting with charisma.
And like you and I mostly don't know
whether guys are good looking. I know
Eddie Van Halen was good looking.
Tell me more.
He He He was the whole thing. Yeah, for
sure. Right.
>> Rockstar. Yeah, and so my feeling is is
that those two guys
really
You know, it's it's one of those things
where you have two guys in a band that
you know, both of them are are one in a
one in a billion kind of people and they
happen to meet.
I
I
I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen,
but I didn't do it in real time. I came
to it later, but I remember the first
time I heard Van Halen 1,
I had the same
mystical thing. What is that? Nothing
sounds like this.
I've almost never had that in music. You
know, the first time I heard uh Smells
Like Teen Spirit, what is that?
Those You know, there are these moments
where something discontinuous happens.
>> But you heard like Ain't Talkin' 'bout
Love and that never got you?
No, Panama doesn't get me.
>> Ain't Talkin' 'bout Love is a [ __ ]
jam.
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> When was the last time you listened to
it?
This year.
And nothing?
It's not that.
Well, okay. So, part part of the
>> the thing is is that do you do you play
an instrument? When you play an
instrument
>> Yeah, I don't play anything. You know,
the thing about Eddie Van Halen is is
that he accepted the geometry
of the neck of the guitar.
And
very often you see musicians say, "I
don't care what key it's in. I I I can
figure out how to do anything." Eddie
Van Halen didn't do that. He said,
"Look, there's certain things that this
thing makes possible.
And I'm going to I'm going to accept the
limitations of the instrument
>> [snorts]
>> and figure out how to push it in all
sorts of ways. Another quote of his that
I just love is this thing about
um
if it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't
care.
He wanted all of those noises.
>> Mhm. And figuring out how to get those
noises, figuring out how to make the
guitar into more. This is a thing that
obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy
Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen
where
they're just
they're in some other space where it's
no longer an instrument the way you and
I see it.
You know,
I I've never wanted a whammy bar on my
instrument until I saw Jeff Beck
do
crazy stuff that just isn't possible.
Did I ever tell you I drove him around
once?
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had that car on
air. Yeah. And that
um
You know, you've never had Derek Trucks
on the program, have you? Tedeschi
Trucks? Uh yeah. No.
That guy is
not a human.
Oh, he's amazing.
>> Amazing. And um And there's a bunch of
different people singing songs.
So, yeah, I Look, I care tremendously
about the guitar and you know, the funny
thing that I realized is that I stupidly
mentioned guitars on JRE and I got sent
amazing guitars and I had I had gave me
sent a
a Quad Cortex.
Um
I should have mentioned like
Lamborghinis or like jewels or
something.
>> work. I've mentioned all those things.
>> Okay. Um but I became friends with like
the greatest guitarists of our time. And
they're all suffering because nobody
cares. And and I I heard, and I haven't
seen it, that you had Marcus King
on and talked about the death of rock.
Well, I talked about the death of rock
before and Marcus reached out and that's
why I had him on. He was like, "Man,
rock's not dead. We're doing it every
[ __ ] night." And I was like, "All
right, come on, man. Let's talk."
And did you get to the blues which he
excels at?
Well, we mostly just we're talking about
just music in general and his life and
he's in it very What did he give you a
nice guitar? Yeah, it's beautiful,
right? He's a cool [ __ ] He's a
cool guy. And he's super talented, too.
Never met him.
Well, it's like these these
This is what my my conversation was
about. Like this is what's what prompted
it, rather. Is it when I was a kid, rock
and roll music was the big popular
music.
>> 100%. It was all Rolling Stones, AC/DC,
these bands were huge. Zeppelin, they
were [ __ ] huge. They were the biggest
bands.
That's not the case anymore.
>> That's right. And that's weird. And I
what I said is I don't understand how a
a a music
genre that's so popular can stop being
popular when it's still so good. Like
when we have Protect Our Parks and, you
know, we'll play Free Bird, we still go
nuts for that guitar solo. What happened
to Free Bird?
I'm pretty sure if you looked at
Google's data, Free Bird was
in
it went away for a long time. Mhm. And
then it got resurrected as a meme.
Right? Because you you can feel, all
right, this insanely long intro. Mhm.
Just so luxurious, you can't believe
anybody would put up with it anymore.
>> Right.
And then
>> It's two different songs. Right. Lord
knows I can't Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Right? Fly high, Free Bird. Yeah. And
then do do do do do do do.
Suddenly, you're on fire. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, it's just like you want
to fly an American flag, you want to
shoot lasers, whatever it is.
That feeling
I think went away.
And I think that I think that Free Bird,
if I'd love to see the day that it came
back.
And in part, it was probably Trump
and Elon
and this re
We're in a masculinity crisis world
over. And the masculinity crisis
originally killed Free Bird and it
brought it back. I think Free Bird was
brought back by Protect Our Parks.
Okay.
You think so? I
It's I mean, as Google Trends says, it's
never really gone away.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What
is There's a peak in 2010.
There's a peak in around December 9th to
2010.
>> Wait, wait, that's 20
A peak in 2010? That's weird. Something
could have happened. Could look it up.
>> I wonder what it was. It probably was in
a movie
>> Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the
reason that I said that is that I would
make this reference cuz
you used to be able to refer
to Free Bird it it was a meme. It's like
everybody knew it. Yeah, people would
yell out And then there was a period of
time when no young person had any clue
what I was talking about.
And I I know Oh, that's interesting.
Because they they still knew Stairway to
Heaven. If you remember these like top
500 songs of all time. Yeah. And then it
would always come down to the last two
and it would always be Free Bird and
Stairway to Heaven. Those would
invariably. Right.
Then suddenly nobody knew what Free Bird
was and now everybody knows again. So I
I I
Yeah. I I I will be I will stand
corrected, but there was a period of
time when young people didn't know it.
Well, is this Google Trends? Is that
what that is, Jamie?
>> Yeah. Yep. So it's just people looking
up
>> even go like that's probably when they
put the video on YouTube for the first
time or it became available on Apple for
the first time to download and it wasn't
only on App Store or something like
that.
>> back to the the blues aspect of it. It's
blues based
rock
that feels like that thing that you and
I relate to.
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You know, we're not
most I'm really into the blues, but
that's a it's its own controversy
because when black audiences stop
showing up to blues shows,
the performers got worse because the the
audience was a huge part of the
experience.
I I tell you about this argument I got
into with John Mayer about the blues.
No.
So, I I ran into John Mayer
um
where was it? Saint Vincent de Paul's
and
I've been in awe of that guy
intellectually. When he talks about
music, I get so much out of it. He's
just very perceptive, very brilliant
guy.
And so, I was you know, really excited
to meet him. And we get into this
discussion.
And I said, "You're like a huge Stevie
Ray Vaughan fan." And
I said, "I I I really don't get it. I
like him. I think he's a great player,
but I don't understand the focus." And
he said, "Oh, I can explain that." He
says, "I came from the MTV generation.
And he was the blues packaged for us.
Like a genius guy for sure, but packaged
for MTV.
>> Mhm.
He said, "But, you know, blues isn't
really
um
blues isn't a is isn't a real musical
format, it's an ingredient." I said,
"What are you talking about?" He said,
"Well, you would never go to a blues
show."
I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this
to John Mayer,
but I don't think you know what you're
talking about."
House of Blues.
>> [laughter]
>> It's literally
Well, he meant something. So, the the
thing is is that I caught the end of
black audiences
like old black people
listening to the blues and paying for
it. So, there's who pays and who plays.
And I'm black people are still paying
for blues, but a lot of them aren't uh
sorry, are still playing blues, but a
lot of them aren't paying for it. So,
when I go, for example, to uh see
Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show
every Monday night, I go occasionally in
in Tarzana, it's like
70-year-old
and up white people. So, you see like
hot chicks in their 80s in crop tops
dancing. And
that's what it is now. It's like a
really old crowd keeping this thing
alive. And I can't understand it because
it feels great, Joe. Right. And
um
and that's the thing. It's just like,
you know, Bonamassa, he does these
cruises keeping the blues alive. And my
feeling is like, "F that."
We we've got to actually get
people back into understanding what it
is. So, if you picture those huge bands
in your youth,
stop thinking about the the band on
stage rocking out, and pan in your mind
into the audience. And what do you see?
Young people. Young people.
What are they doing? Dancing, having
fun.
>> They're dancing.
There's some There's some chick in a
crop top on some guy's shoulders
rocking out.
Free bird. When
when hot chicks stop dancing to your
music, it starts to enter its death
throes.
>> Damn.
>> And that's true with jazz.
It's true with traditional R&B.
And it's true with the blues, it's true
with rock. And so the important thing I
I keep telling people is that you have
to get people dancing. Once you start
becoming intellectual, like Allan
Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Allan
Holdsworth. Maybe you are.
>> [laughter]
>> That's not my [ __ ]
You have no idea.
>> to it, Jeremy? What do you think?
Dude. I'm going to honestly tell you
guys you sound old as [ __ ] right now.
>> [laughter]
>> There's so much music and rock music and
arenas right now that's selling out.
What is rock in in arenas right now?
>> like there's a bunch of bands I could
say like Bad Omens, Beartooth, Korn just
posted a video in front of like São
Paulo, Brazil, 50,000 people going
crazy.
Yeah, like Meshuggah. I I It's out
there. Yeah.
>> But it's not what you got You guys don't
like it either, you know.
>> Yeah, but [snorts] it's not it is it's
not the big popular music that it was
when I was a kid.
>> There's only five artists in the world
that are popular like all over the place
right now.
>> Because it's cuz it's now micro. Right.
>> Right, cuz there's too many bands,
there's too much music, too much
content.
>> the control of the institutions to tell
us what we like Mhm.
has has slipped.
Right? And so in part, you know, like
with our version of payola that
um you know, when I was growing up in in
LA, it was KMET and KLOS that determined
or KROQ. Those are the three stations
that mattered.
And they told us, "Here's Here's the
offering, boys.
This is what's on tap."
Right now, you know, are you into
mathcore? Do you think that's it? It's
the death of cuz wow, now that you're
saying that, I'm thinking the death of
radio and the death of rock and roll,
Mhm.
they sync.
Because radio really stopped being a
thing
>> [sighs]
>> early 2000s?
Early 2000s, radio stopped being a
thing.
>> Well, remember when LimeWire came
through and everybody could get all the
songs that they wanted.
>> That was an issue. But it it felt like
if anything, I thought at the beginning
when like Metallica was railing and Lars
Lars Ulrich was railing against Napster.
I'm like, these are just your fans.
They're just your fans that are getting
your music for free. Yep.
>> You're going to have to adapt, but they
still love you and you you know, don't
you make most of your money touring or I
don't know. I don't know what the
economics of it are, but they're going
to change. This is a new thing.
>> micro markets,
you know,
just just in prog metal, there's so many
different flavors.
>> I understand, but but
what we're getting at is that the radio
sort of dictated what became popular.
Yeah.
Now video games
>> popular in more of a sense of a viral
way. Sure. Well, one thing is that these
clips, if your clip gets picked up by
TikTok and Instagram Reels,
that's, you know, some tiny fraction of
of a song is the
catnip that leads everyone to your door.
>> 100%. I've
downloaded many, many songs that way.
But I I I was hanging with Misha Mansoor
who was making the Jamie claim like you
you got old grandpa.
And his point
>> [laughter]
>> Yeah.
The thing is I I have at least the
courage to hang out with actually cool
people.
He said, you know, his point was you
you're just not even watching it
correctly. And I said, "What do you
mean, Misha?" He said,
"Video games.
Video game the music in video games
matters much more than you imagine." And
I it's like totally right. Mhm. That
makes sense. And so, you know,
what we are thinking about in get off
get off my lawn mode Right. is there was
something lost and it hasn't been reborn
anywhere. So, that's the part that young
Jamie is not getting correct.
Something was just lost.
Now, lots of new stuff sprouted up.
But like EDM and DJing is really where a
lot of that dancing hot chick energy
went.
Mhm. That makes sense. Yeah.
Right? And then like if you've ever
>> guys want to go where the dancing hot
chicks are.
They will follow anywhere. Right.
>> Right? And and you know, that's the
whole
I was in uh What's this, Jamie? This is
EDC Vegas [clears throat] 2026. This is
just an example of what you're saying
like Is this uh electronic? Yep. Yeah.
This is like as big as it gets. If I
look at the stage, look at all these
lights. I wonder if Molly didn't exist,
how much of this would be out there.
I mean It's a good question, right?
>> didn't exist, how much of that music
wouldn't have gotten big, too. Oh, a
lot. Yeah. But yeah, this is really what
you're saying out. Right? And So, like I
found myself in in Vegas Except for Ella
Langley now is sort of antithesis
antithesis to that, but
>> What is? Ella Langley. What's that?
She's a biggest country artist in almost
ever now.
First female with like two top 100 songs
ever. How am I so out of the loop? Um
because
>> What's the big song? Oh, I know that
song. That song's great. She's got
another one now and And has she been
around for a long time?
>> Nope. She's pretty new. She's like 24,
25.
>> it. Murdering it.
So, part of part of what's going on is
there's no way to monitor.
Like even if you have really current
young people
they're monitoring a subset
of what's going on. Nobody Nobody's
tracking the whole thing.
Right. And well, why country though? Why
is country exploding the way it's
exploding?
>> Well, because we're all in a meaning
crisis. If you think about the way in
which uh
country music for example develop a
story through uh tropes very, very
quickly.
Yeah. Right? And so, in part
uh the idea is that story songs and a
return
you know, try that in a small town
uh is transgressive.
Try that in a small town is a
>> [laughter]
>> It's a really powerful message. Right.
>> You don't have to say a lot. And we all
want the cowboy but we all want
the girl at the county fair, you know?
Um we just don't know how to get back
there.
Right. We don't want a wholesome
existence. You know?
I got a
barbecue stain on my white t-shirt.
That's Tim McGraw, right? Like you know,
you
she's killing it in that that mini
skirt, you know? Heart don't forget
something like that. Beautiful story,
very, very quickly told.
Now, it's old now, but the point being
um
hip-hop
and its storytelling and the return to
spoken word and poetry and then the
legacy of the talking blues
had a had a great run, spread worldwide.
You know, you talk about whites taking
over. What do you mean whites? Like
Tamils?
And you know, in indigenous Peruvians
have taken over hip-hop in in their
local sectors.
Uh so, hip-hop was just this great
platform that once uh
every local culture figured out some
version of that.
And I talk about um
when I entered Bollywood, there was a
song
uh
Amma Dekh Tera Munna Bigda Jaye, you
know, Mama look, your your child is
being ruined. And it has this like um
Hey Mom, hey Dad, don't moan and groan.
Why don't you learn to live with the
times and please leave us alone. Mhm. Um
and it goes
>> generation's message.
>> but it's like it's delivered in uh, you
know, boogie woogie, reggae, rap, rock
and roll, and bhangra, you know, and it
it's like trying to It was the first
lame attempt at rap that I saw in a
Bollywood film.
With Jackie Shroff. And
they've all made it theirs. And so I was
hanging out in India now with a DJ
um, on his program, uh, untriggered.
And
it's changing the the developing world
um, at a level that rock and roll
changed us. It was a, you know, the
music of liberation. John Mayer's point,
of course, is that the guitar, the
electric guitar, retains the stylistic
characteristics
of cars in the 1950s.
And that thing was the twin experience
of having a car and having a guitar was
was personal expression and liberation
for for American males in the '50s. Mhm.
So,
um,
yeah, I I but I think a lot about our
guitarist friends because they're
suffering. The world's greatest
guitarists are living today and nobody
cares.
They all follow each other. The funny
thing is if you start following these
people on Instagram, as I do,
um, I look to see which of my friends
are following the great guitarists.
And
it's other great guitarists. It's none
of my normal friends.
Like, how how many of my normal friends
know who Tim Henson is, a great Texas
guitarist? Uh,
You I do. This man. You know him?
>> Yeah. What kind of music? Pol- um, yeah,
I can't even explain it. He He pretty
much invented a genre that only he
mastered and is can explain.
>> It's like Tex-Mex
melodic.
If I had a glass and I broke it, if I
took Tex-Mex and I broke it on the
ground and I reassembled it from
different things, it's completely
angular and an idea will last It's like
a psychedelic thing where it'll last for
5 seconds and then it'll be onto the
next thing and it's just angular and
fragmented and sewn together and
beautiful and inspiring. Give me some,
Jenny.
>> Yeah, I know. I have to I have to play
it for you cuz the drummer and bass
player are also awesome, but
pretty much revolves around the guitar.
And you see the thing is that they're so
tight with each other
that um, you know, a better example even
than this would be this thing that they
released called Goat, which was the
thing that put them on the map.
Um,
and
That was great. It was right?
>> Let me hear Goat. Also, Tim is just like
the loveliest human being.
>> as a young boy. Boy, I miss him before
he got all the crazy neck tattoos.
>> Oh.
>> [music]
>> Well, it's just [music] broken out. I
don't know.
That's not Tim, is it?
They posted it.
Says it's Tim.
This is
This is a different different human.
Oh. Let's hear the song. Okay.
I think that's someone posting a riff.
That was their account.
Yeah, I know, but maybe he just put it
up there.
By the way,
you hear the Mexican influence? Yeah,
definitely.
>> So, like this is It's very unique. Very
unique sound.
>> This is who I hang with. I love these
guys. This is this this matters to me.
And this is new, right? And just the way
this uh what
like Antoine de Portray in that's taking
over the world is basically you hear the
Middle East.
Um, but these guys are basically into
microtones. If you take 24 beats, you
can divide it by sixes, you can divide
it by fours.
Uh,
so
the mathematics of rhythm,
um, you know, the stuff that like only
Vinnie Colaiuta was able to do before
people are sort of getting hip to things
that were happening on oud are now
happening on microtonal guitars. And
what it is as I see it is this is like a
this violent birth of people bored by
standard Western forms. And I'm I'm for
this.
I'm not for all of the slop that you
know, like young people are always into
the coolest stuff. No, they're not.
There are lame times, there are cool
times.
There's really cool stuff happening now,
but it's it's
it's the fact and particularly this
Quebec kind of thing that that broke out
with these guys in costume.
Um
Huh?
You don't know this? Antoine de
Portrait, something like that.
There's something
>> Quebec costumes? What are you doing?
Look, you remember the Residents who
were this art group from San Francisco?
Nobody knew who they were. They would
have giant eyeballs as heads and they
would play completely insane things like
Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, but in
angular bizarre ways. I missed that,
too. Okay.
Did you miss it? I don't know where
we're going. So, Antoine de Portrait is
is this thing
that took over which doesn't sound like
anything. It's like that new thing.
So, you know, you you
because
>> [music]
[music]
>> So, look at that guitarist's fretboards.
>> [laughter]
>> Now,
>> [laughter]
>> the mathematics
>> Okay, Jamie.
The mathematics of this is that there's
this freak fact, which is that if you
take the octave, which is a of
frequency,
um you take the 12th root of it, break
it into 12 semitones, and then take 19
of them stacked. 2 to the 19 over 12 is
equal to 2.996 something. It's almost
three.
And that means that you can force people
into this quantized music where you come
up with this num- number 12 which is
magical
for number theory reasons.
And you can fool the ear into thinking
that 19 of these 12
semitones is a a a complete tripling of
frequency.
And because of that, we've been in even
tempered music since the time of Bach.
And these guys are breaking us out
together with Jacob Collier.
They're saying,
"Why would you accept that as a prison?"
And so, how does stuff like this become
popular? Is it just viral? Yeah. Yeah.
Because suddenly you see two guys in
costumes that don't look anything like
anything
you know, making music.
It There's a moment where it switches
into six beats
per unit into four beats per unit
because it's on a 24 cycle.
And suddenly you just feel good. And
also, if any of these guys get cocky,
you could just swap them out.
Put a mask on some new guy, and get him
in there.
>> No, but it's it's anti-egoic. It's
anti-egoic. Right. Right? So, in part,
you know, it's like Buckethead.
Buckethead didn't want to be
Like you have trouble being Joe Rogan. I
even have trouble being Eric Weinstein.
I'm afraid of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to
be well-known.
And these guys are erasing themselves.
And that idea of, you know, um
it's very funny. Tim Henson, I think,
has a song called Ego Death with uh
Steve Vai.
Um
Ego Death is really hot because people
erasing themselves is what everybody
isn't trying to do
uh who's chasing clout.
Right.
>> So, And people like that. Yeah, because
it's a form or
they don't just like that. They also
don't mind if you're chasing clout and
you say
I'm chasing some clout.
Right. I'm trying to get that bag. So,
what they don't want is somebody saying
like Bill Gates
Right. I'm just looking out for humanity
and global health.
So, um what I'm doing I'm engineering
ticks so that they bite you and you get
allergic to red meat and I'm dropping
them off from helicopters.
We're going to administer vaccines
involuntarily through ticks. Yeah, and
mosquitoes. Yeah. So, all of this stuff
really bothers people. It's the
disingenuous Well, it's the disingenuous
>> he doesn't have any friends.
You know, and he can't get any [ __ ]
anymore cuz he keeps getting caught.
>> He can get it.
>> [laughter]
>> But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy
[ __ ]
We did.
>> happy.
>> We did. We?
I wasn't involved. Neither was I. Yeah,
allegedly.
What do you mean allegedly?
I didn't go to that island. You didn't?
No.
No, you were one of the one of the
people that saw through him right away.
No, but he offered me partnership and I
didn't take it. And I regretted that for
a while.
Cuz you would have been ching-ching.
I would have been made rich or deceased.
Probably both. Probably both.
Yeah, I've a couple times I've been
offered real wealth and with crazy
stuff, but the Epstein thing
I don't know that I've actually said
that on a podcast. Um
Yeah, he offered me partnership and the
only condition was that I had to get rid
of my existing partners.
Like I had to stab my partners in the
back in order to become his partner.
>> Oh, yeah. So, he'd own you.
Yeah.
>> Yeah, it's like sh- show me that you're
I don't want to sidetrack this, but I'll
come back, but these two
333-year-old aliens, time travelers.
>> Yeah. And so, [laughter] they cannot be
easily replaced. Yes, they can. That's
horse [ __ ] But, look, I'll make a
prediction. If these guys haven't been
unmasked
>> even know you're going to unmask these
guys and you're going to find out that
they've got Middle Eastern hair.
>> don't unmask them. They already unmasked
Banksy. Yeah.
>> Can't we have some [ __ ] mystery in
this world, dammit? I think they're
cool. I like that music. That was fun.
That was fun.
Um
>> I like viral things, too. I like things
that just spread just from weirdness,
you know? Someone sends it to me. That's
one one of the things that I love about
Spotify. If I'm listening to something
weird, it'll suggest something weird.
You know, like that I've never heard of
before, bands I've never heard of
before. And then all of a sudden, I
click on it, the suggestion thing.
That's how I get new music now. Or I use
um
what's that [ __ ] app? Shazam. I use
Shazam. If I'm at a, you know, pool hall
or something, something cool comes on.
I'm like, "Ooh, what is that?" See, I
I do that, but then I can end up in
these ruts.
Like, for example, I really like songs
that go between A minor and E major. And
that is
So, it just gives me more and more of
it. Yeah, nerd. You're a music nerd.
>> [snorts]
>> Listen, that's your algorithm. There's
nothing wrong with that.
>> Okay. You're a mixed martial arts nerd.
>> I am.
>> I know. I'm also There's a lot of things
that are way more boring than that,
pool. I'm I watch professional pool
probably three or four hours a day.
Yeah? Yeah.
That's how I escape.
I escape in the geometry and the
movements, the patterns. Dude, you
should have seen the comedians in the
physics department yesterday.
>> Oh, that must have been I must have been
amazing.
>> Duncan
>> Duncan and Kurt together. First of all,
together, they are the [ __ ] dynamic
duo. They are such a good duo cuz
they're both sarcastic and they're
they're both like heavily engaged in
satire.
>> as far as they could. Yeah. But, then um
I don't know whether I can tell these
stories or not.
>> Tell these stories. Tell them. What
happened? What Kurt do?
So, [laughter] part of the
[ __ ] I love that guy. He's so awesome.
So, I I love that he's a real person.
Whenever I he comes into the mothership
green room, I'm like, "Yes."
Give me a dose.
>> real. He he gave me some wild
anti-Israel stuff, I think. I couldn't
tell whether it was pro or anti.
Um he So, at the end, there was an
experimentalist who was like, "Come to
my Come to my parlor.
I'll show you my etchings." No, no, no,
cryogenic giant vacuum tubes from hell
or whatever.
So, we all went down there. And so,
we're in the basement of the physics
department. You can tell the difference
between the theory floor and the like
the part where they actually do things.
And these guys were just, you know, were
effectively at 77° before abs- above
absolute zero with uh conditions that
only occur in deep space inside of this
thing coated in like tin foil.
And so, these guys are just cracking
jokes about growing weed and and uh
>> [laughter]
>> What happens if you put hydroponic weed
in the chamber?
But, the other thing is is that
comedians [snorts] are really
they're really intellectual nerds and a
lot of them, not all of them. Those two
guys are. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Yeah. And they really wanted to know,
"Okay, what is it that you guys are
doing down here and how do I
understand?"
>> But, Duncan's Duncan's amazing.
>> Very curious.
>> Although, he he drew a completely
pornographic
>> [laughter]
>> He's taking notes. Yeah.
We send it to Jamie cuz Kurt sent it to
me. This is the notes Duncan was taking
during Physics text.
>> [laughter]
>> Cuz I'm like doing battle
a little bit with the There's one
extremely smart string theorist in the
audience named Jacques Distler.
And so,
almost all of the interactions between
Jacques and myself were
we were both being very
collegial, but it was, you know, it was
pretty pretty hot. I sent it to you,
Jamie. And uh it's a he says, "While you
were doing that, I did a little sketch
of you.
I can figure out [clears throat] your
exact anatomy.
>> [laughter]
>> It's a gift."
Well, you need something like that.
>> That's the last talk he's ever coming
to. No, he'll come back to every one of
them. No, actually, I was really trying
to hook So, he's taking notes.
Oh, no, please.
>> volume. Joe.
>> [laughter]
>> Thank you, Joe.
>> [snorts]
>> Hey guys, I got some other things to do
this afternoon. It's been great.
OKAY. BYE.
>> [laughter]
>> OH MY GOD.
SO.
>> OH, JESUS. But yeah, I wanted
You know, CP
did this famous essay called The Two
Cultures.
And it was about how
um literary intellectuals and scientific
intellectuals used to be one group, and
then they they moved apart, and so now
we can't hear each other across the
chasm.
I
I really wanted to create a pipeline
of not the seven scientists we see on
all of the talks on the podcasts, but
like
choose who you want to talk to. Who's
doing cool [ __ ]
The comedians belong in our science
departments.
Otherwise, how are people going to know
what's going on? There's there's funny
[ __ ] happening.
Well,
And by the way, the UFO thing that's now
blowing up.
>> Mhm.
>> [snorts]
>> There's going to be some crazy science
collision with the UFO narrative.
There's no way of stopping it at this
point. So, you've turned a corner on
this. Let's talk about that, because uh
I saw you on Jesse Michel's show, and
you were talking about how just a few
years ago you thought that the entire
narrative was complete nonsense.
Probably 5 6 years ago by now. And what
changed?
Um
there was no way to explain
So Jesse was going on and on about I
said, "Jesse, you're a smart guy." And
you you know, I had I often would call
him the the back alley scholar. So he
knew a lot of stuff um
that was sort of forbidden knowledge.
And
he wouldn't be quiet about it.
So I said, "Okay, I'm going to disabuse
you of the idea that you're actually
into something." And I realized very
quickly
at a minimum there is a massive
denied program. Like usually called a
special access program. Mhm. One or
more.
There's no way to synchronize that
number of people who've had experiences
that are so similar.
And there's a lot of stuff that I
couldn't make sense of. And what
attracted me in a certain sense
um
was I couldn't come up with any
explanation. So rare.
I usually have exactly the opposite
problem, which is I come up with too
many explanations.
I can't come up with a single
explanation that makes sense of what I
now know. And also the fact that the
government outreach to me and to Sam
Harris and to Lex Friedman.
And you know, there was this thing where
these guys who checked out
um said, "There's going to be a massive
disclosure, and we need people to
disseminate these things to the public,
and you have a share of the of the
public who listens to you.
And we need to get you informed so that
you can help mediate the disclosure." So
what prompted this change in narrative?
What's going on between the Yeah. the
government?
>> Yeah. We don't know. We don't know Look,
we don't know what the thing or things
is are
yet.
Um some of it is so again so low quality
that it's embarrassing to be seen with
it. So my colleagues who don't want to
take this seriously
uh use that like okay, so you're you're
you're you're you're now on the little
green men train.
And I said, "No, I'm on the special
access program train. There is there's
for sure special access program or
programs
that have UFO on the side of them that
may or may not have aliens or craft or
non-human intelligence in them. It may
be that it's decoys. It may be I don't
know what it is.
There's no way to deny that there's like
a giant lump under the carpet.
And what what prompted you to change
your opinion and and and decide that
there is some sort of a special access
program?
When I started coming in contact with
totally sober people from reasonable
walks of life who would say the craziest
things to me and a lot of them checked
and they didn't yet know each other.
Like what kind of crazy things? Um let
me take somebody who's public. Brandon
Fugal for example,
uh
was at a dinner
where he started talking about being
visited by a craft a few feet over the
his head that came over the mesa
and his head of security was catatonic
standing in the back of a pickup truck
unable to move.
And
it was just way too specific.
And a shared experience that multiple
people had had.
Right? And so you know the the joke of
course is that
uh the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch or or
you know whatever this
>> Right. Um
there's real stuff going on there and
there's nonsense BS that the History
Channel has packaged to come up with a
salacious series and they're one is
funding the other.
So, I don't know what that is, but like
the some of these injuries are real.
And Injuries? Yeah, like Gary Nolan
talking about
people reporting
you know, he Gary Nolan told me a story
that somebody had said that a ball of
energy
would come and enter the body and
move around and then leave.
And he said, you know, the craziest
thing is is that when I inspected the
tissue
there was a path of necrosis
that can't be explained.
Like something that shows up on imaging.
And
it's
Gary's a really smart serious guy. I can
check a lot of the things that he says
scientifically. Why would he say
something like that?
I mean, I didn't see it myself, but
Well, he's also done some very strange
work on material science. Right. And
where he's analyzed particles or little
little pieces of metal and alloys that
have come from wreckage from the 1970s
and 60s.
>> Yeah, that I don't know the providence.
Like he'll carry around a little
thing and he'll show it to me and I'll
say, you know, but you know, there's no
combination
of of
of materials and alloys that that this
matches that we know how to produce.
And I say, okay, it doesn't mean
anything to me. Again, it's just it's
all I I have no At this point, I have no
primary
um contact
with anything anomalous. I just have all
sorts of secondary stuff. And by the
way, the thing that you saw with the
Jesse Michaels in American Alchemy
um
boy, did that get a response inside the
government. That particular episode. How
so?
I had a lot of people who had stopped
talking to me
about UFOs who suddenly
you know, I had like eight calls
immediately after it aired.
"Hey Eric, just thought I'd catch up
with you." And I was like, "Oh, okay."
There was a huge discussion inside. Mhm.
Um and the first
uh
without getting into particulars, the
first official outreach.
Like really official outreach. The
checks.
In the wake of that episode.
And I'm not under any NDAs. Nobody's
told me anything that I can't discuss.
But that that may change.
Um
one thing that's very
clear to me is that when I hear
something from many sources, I I don't
need to protect it anymore. It's already
out. Okay?
I have now heard the White Sands story
from many sources.
This is the one where the crafts
hovered over the base, shut down the
nuclear program. Is that it?
I'm just going to say what I can say
that's fuzzed out that can't be traced
to anybody.
>> Okay.
Um
I was very upset with the shutdown of
the El Paso airspace.
That was recently. Yeah, it was supposed
to be supposed to be we had a problem
with cartel drones. Right. I don't
believe that.
I think Texas is another name for New
Mexico. I think El Paso is a name for
White Sands.
Can we get a map of the United States
that can focus on
White Sands and El Paso?
I I think we have a problem that we've
lost control of our airspace.
You think this is part of what happened
in New Jersey as well?
>> [snorts]
>> I can't say
as much because what I know, no.
What happened around New Jersey
I don't have from as many sources that I
feel comfortable saying that this is
fuzzed out. I can fuzz out the El Paso
story. Nobody has told me that El Paso
was shut down because of the problem at
White Sands. Okay.
People have said things about New Jersey
that is All right. All right.
>> So, there's El Paso.
>> here, White Sands right above it. How
far away is that?
>> my guess is about an hour.
By driving?
>> Yeah, let's see. It's probably 60, 70,
80 miles most. Okay.
So, I don't know what's going on, but my
my guess is
So,
on Piers Morgan, I said this thing, um
which is that New Mexico
is the connector of the nuclear story,
the Epstein story, and the UFO story.
They're all going to come together.
Remember when we were only talking about
the island? Mhm.
I
Somehow, I think I was the first person
to seize on this. There's this thing
that isn't an interview, which is Steve
Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein
how to respond to rehabilitate it.
And if you can find this, this is
>> I've seen it. Okay. It's very weird.
So, he says
um
You want to know about why I got Zorro
Ranch in New Mexico. Can we play this
clip? Can you find
I think Jesse repackaged it after I
pointed it out.
But this is the story that like somehow
that we we're so hung up about sex.
We're either angry about trafficking or
we're getting off on the idea that all
these rich people, um
are going to get their comeuppance or,
you know, we keep turning the Epstein
story into something other than a
scientific espionage story, which is one
of its one of its facets.
It's one component.
>> It's one component.
>> Right. Yeah, but we but it doesn't
excite us
that this is a guy spying.
Control of science, Joe,
is not something that is officially a
big issue. And it is a massive issue.
It's not publicly a big issue.
>> That's correct, yeah.
>> And he clearly had a
>> let's back up.
>> big interest in So, why did I buy a
ranch in New Mexico 1993? So, that's
gives you some sense. So, I would have
funded it in 1990.
Uh
Los Alamos,
which was the high energy lab up in New
Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
And Los Alamos was where Oppenheimer and
where the where the a lot of the the
nuclear weapons program, the bomb was
>> That's where the Manhattan Project
>> Manhattan Project was Yes. at Los
Alamos, and you bought your property out
in New Mexico to be near that?
>> Yes, because the scientists were going
to be they cut the funding for high
energy physics.
But the people who worked in Los Alamos
would still be in the Santa Fe area.
They cut that because the end of the
This was the Cold War dividend, right? I
don't remember exactly why. It was
because again, people thought there was
that physics and high energy physics
really wasn't that important. Because
that was about nuclear weapons. No, it
was because they were trying to they
decided it was maybe not right. This was
the same time that Murray Gell-Mann
came up with the term quark, q u a r k.
He he picked it out of a old poem, the
word quark. But it was something it was
mysterious.
So, they were starting to understand in
the '90s that the in the our world of
the physical world, there was things
that were just unexplainable.
They called it strange things. You gave
it a name. You gave it some
characteristics.
You called it it had charm was one of
the terms. It had a charm. It had a
flavor. It had a color.
But nobody really No one,
Mr. Bannon, understood what it was.
Just like the financial system. And you
wanted to investigate that. I I wanted
to see if we could build tools so others
smarter than me could help investigate
it.
>> And that was the beginning of your
concept of the Santa Fe Institute.
>> Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded
to do study in this type of Can you Can
these areas of strange things be
described by some form of mathematics?
Okay. Now,
what you're seeing there
is fascinating. Like, just take By the
way, very well isolated, exactly the bit
that I wanted.
In that interview or that training, he
claims to have founded the Santa Fe
Institute.
Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think,
in 1984, not 1990 or 1993.
Bannon clearly knows more about why
these scientists were being defunded
than does the person who buys this
property. Now, that property is not only
close to Los Alamos, it's also close to
Sandia National Laboratory.
What you Like, people said to me, "Eric,
you said he was an idiot. He's clearly
very knowledgeable.
Um you can see there that you were
wrong." I was like,
that is an actor.
That is not
anyone smart with
proximity to Murray Gell-Mann and
others. Like, he he knew Murray
Gell-Mann well. Murray Gell-Mann didn't
name quarks in 1990.
That goes back to like the '60s when
George Zweig called them aces and
Gell-Mann called them quarks for three
quarks from muster mark that came out of
James Joyce. So, he's he's just
repeating stuff that he doesn't
understand.
And why did he buy the house or a ranch?
To be close to the
scientists whose funding was cut.
The people who make weapons and who do
high energy physics
who had the rug pulled out from under
them
by the United States when they won the
Cold War by putting this pressure on the
Soviet Union.
Like, there's no thing more important
than theoretical physicists, you idiots.
And And you don't fund these people and
you don't watch them. Like, the
Department of Energy is supposed to have
counterintelligence
to stop creeps
from hanging around the national labs,
which is America's secret university
system. Hello.
And
that's what he was doing.
He was buying a property to be close to
the national labs in New Mexico that
make the weapons and that are in charge
of trying to figure out the future.
So, if you think about the national labs
is this parallel thing to the university
system. But, it's the secret part where
you have to be American and you have to
have a security clearance and all this
kind of stuff.
Epstein set up a listening post.
Now, what are What's the UFO story? The
UFO story is all about nukes.
And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge,
Massachusetts? The analog of Zorro Ranch
is named One Brattle Square.
It's right in the heart of Harvard
Square. You know, I know it like the
back of my hand.
It's a 7-minute walk to the Science
Center.
The Harvard Science Center
on floors 3, 4, and 5 is where the math
department is.
And who was Epstein's initial contact in
the math department?
It wasn't Martin Nowak who he funded.
It was a different guy named Benedict
Gross.
Dick Gross was an expert in number
theory and in elliptic curves.
And elliptic curves are what power the
cryptography behind Bitcoin, behind
public keys.
You're talking about a guy
who was setting up listening posts
>> [snorts]
>> next to extremely sensitive stuff that
we've stupidly left unprotected in the
open university system or defunded in
our national lab.
>> you say listening posts, like what do
you mean?
Bugs on the wall?
>> no, no. No?
He just remained in contact with these
people?
Joe, you've got real money.
Guys with real money use dinner.
Dinner is an incredible thing.
I watched Peter Thiel use dinner.
Fly people in for dinners.
You put people up in a nice hotel for 3
nights.
Serve them amazing food from a private
chef. You get a black car to collect
them. They'll tell you anything.
I don't think that mean that Peter was
doing this in an evil way, but I watched
dinner after dinner after dinner as
people disgorged all they knew because
they were so happy
they're getting a $200 bottle of wine
and being treated like humans.
You know, like respected.
So, in part, you have to understand that
dinner in and of itself or a mansion
or first-class ticket
is all it takes to get people to start
talking.
Uh Jeffrey Epstein was CIA. The
communications network at Zorro Ranch
prove it. The DOJ's own files showed
Epstein built a military-grade encrypted
link to satellite orbit at Zorro Ranch.
The contractor who built it now holds a
Pentagon missile defense contract.
So, remember
Jeffrey Epstein is a construct. Uh-huh.
You know, there's this whole question
about it, like why won't Jews talk about
Jeffrey Epstein and the sex [ __ ]
It's like as if I haven't been on this
since 2004.
Yeah, no one can accuse you of not
talking about it.
If they can, they're just being
ignorant. No, they're being a [ __ ]
because it used to be super dangerous.
This was [snorts] like one of the really
costly things is to say
>> that was though? This satellite
encrypted
All right, let's let's go there, but I'm
a little bit nervous. Um
Why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all
of these people much richer than him
into his orbit?
That's the question you should be
asking.
So here's my theory. Okay.
I'll just be careful here.
Okay.
What happens when you become a
billionaire? I don't know. Not there.
Nowhere close.
What happens is is that you find out
that it's not what you thought it was.
First of all, you now have staff
everywhere.
You can't move around easily because you
need a security detail.
Right?
I first met Peter Thiel, I said, "Wow,
your security detail on this beach is
amazing. I can't even tell where they
are." He says, "Am I supposed to have a
security detail?" I'm like,
"Peter, you've got to be kidding." Now
he's got one.
So the first thing is is that you find
you you lose your privacy, you lose your
freedom of movement, you've got a
retinue of people who have to be
constantly maintained, they're under
your roof.
And you're like, "This isn't what I
signed up for. I wanted to be rich." And
you're like, "Well, you are rich, you
can buy things."
Well, you can't buy privacy, you can't
buy freedom, you can't buy anonymity,
all these things that you want.
And you can't buy the ability to do
fun naughty stuff. I'm not talking about
little kids. I'm saying like
if you're going to take drugs, you're at
risk of, you know, having everybody want
to tell the story. If you want to have
uh
a menage, you're at the same risk. So,
the question becomes
what do I do to to get what I thought I
was going to do, which is the right to
have freedom over my own life and to
misbehave in fun ways, whatever.
Nobody can figure out how to do it.
Jeffrey Epstein could do it. Now, why is
it that he could do it?
Well, who's spoken to the contractors
who built his island?
It's the most obvious thing to do. If I
was an investigative journalist, that's
what I'd do. I'd talk to like the
plumbers, the maids,
all of the people
who are just working for a living.
Those are the people who constantly leak
information about their employers.
Well, who's the only person who has a
who has the ability to build something?
The CIA has its own
has its own construction company.
Sovereigns, countries, nations have the
ability to do stuff
where
they know how to keep things under
wraps. If you think about S4,
I guarantee you there's a men's room at
S4.
Well, who cleans it?
That's a really important question.
Because that's the weak link.
And so, rich people haven't figured out
how to be rich.
That's what everybody was attracted to
in that upper income bracket. That he
would provide them with experiences. He
would provide them with things that they
couldn't figure out how anybody could
provide.
Because they were dealing with a state.
I assure you that the Sultan of Brunei
knows how to do stuff.
Because he's both an individual
and a state.
Most of us
are either in this sort of black ops
world
or
we're dreaming about
being very rich.
>> [snorts]
>> Or just norm normal human beings.
The very rich are very disappointed.
Epstein felt rich, as I said before, in
a movie sense.
He had freedom.
He could say and do things that other
people couldn't.
You know, Elon
is constantly tripping over the fact
that
I I think he's a wild guy.
I'm up for wild guys. I want cowboy
billionaires, cowboy physicists, cowboy
everything.
But in general, we don't want cowboys.
And you know, again, this has nothing to
do with little kids. That's a different
thing. Right.
But if you want to go take drugs, take
drugs.
If you want to have a menage, have a
menage. Fine.
I don't want to hear about it. I don't I
don't spill the tea. I can't stand this
culture.
Epstein knew how to keep quiet stuff
quiet. And why is that? His product, as
I've said before, was silence.
If you want a really dangerous question,
ask the question
um
what did the people who were in his
direct orbit have an unusually high
number of disappearances
around them? Did they? I don't know.
But it's a dangerous question. I've
never investigated it, but that's
Have you ever seen Yeah, everybody talks
about Eyes Wide Shut now. Mhm. You
notice that nobody talks about Crimes
and Misdemeanors?
Where Woody Allen is directly in his
orbit?
God, I don't even know if I've seen that
movie. There is a scene where Martin
Landau
and Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair
of brothers. I think that they only meet
on screen once.
And Martin Landau is having an affair
and the woman has decided that she has
rights.
And Martin Landau is a very wealthy
ophthalmologist or something like that.
And he has a brother who's a shiv
shivarker.
Shivarker is being the Yiddish word for
a tough guy.
And
it's one of the most Can Can we find
Jerry Orbach, Martin Landau, Crimes and
Misdemeanors. It's the most
blood-curdling
so well done. What's the scene
description though? You didn't really
get to it.
>> Well, they're only in one If they're
only in one scene together, they'll be
at a I haven't seen it in ages, but it
My memory is that they're at a house
walking around a pool and then they walk
inside to the pool house.
And there's a resentment that the
brother who's in the life
um
is only called to the house
occasionally.
Right? And it's this way in which the
gentile
and the people who can get things done
that you're not allowed to do in the
within the law are connected. And so
Woody Allen is clearly writing this from
personal experience. He has some
interaction between
being in high society
and knowing shivarkers.
And I actually
knew um his old Woody Allen's old
producer who was the father of a friend
of mine, so
a guy named Jack Grossberg.
And Jack Grossberg was a
epitome of a tough Jew in Hollywood
who'd deal with the Teamsters or when
there was a labor dispute.
And you know, he wasn't in the life, but
he was a guy who could stare down a
mafioso.
Um
I think that in part Woody Allen is
writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was
providing, which was a measure of
silence. Is this a No, no, no.
>> Oh, okay. Well, then I don't know.
No, we're looking for Martin Landau
and Jerry Orbach
in Crimes and Misdemeanors.
Yeah, I don't know. That's going to be
hard to find cuz it's uh Yep, that one.
>> Maybe right there.
>> Yep. Okay.
I think that this is the scene that
nobody's talking about. I don't know,
but she's killing me. But
Want me to have somebody talk to her?
Like what?
Straighten her out.
What do you mean, threaten her? That's
all I need.
How else do you expect to keep her
quiet? Can you turn that up? No, this is
as low as I can get it, unfortunately.
>> Okay.
Well,
wise guy, what do you suggest?
What did you call me for?
I don't know. I I hoped you'd have more
experience with something like this.
You called me because you needed some
dirty work done. That's all you ever
call for.
Look how petty you are.
You've staked me plenty of times. I
don't forget my obligations.
Threatening her will only make it worse,
Jack.
Okay, forget about it. What do you want
me to say?
How the hell can I forget about it? I'm
fighting for my life.
This woman's going to destroy everything
I've built.
That's what I'm saying, Judah. If the
woman won't listen to reason, then you
go on to the next step.
What? Threats? Violence? What are we
talking about here? She can be gotten
rid of.
I mean, I know a lot of people. Money
will buy whatever's necessary.
>> even going to comment on that. That's
mind boggling.
Well, what did you want me to do when
you called me? Not to do dirty work,
despite what you think.
Anyway, it's got beyond just Miriam now.
She's
She's talking financial doings. I
I'm out of ideas.
I don't know what I expected from you,
Jack, but
You know,
you're not aware of what goes on in this
world. I mean, you sit up here with your
four acres
>> me that crap. You know I don't want to
hear about my sister.
>> your rich friends and out there in the
real world, it's a whole different
story.
>> Come on.
I've met a lot of characters from when I
had the restaurant
>> I've heard these stories before.
>> Avenue, from Atlantic City,
and I'm not so high class that I can
avoid looking at reality. I can't afford
to be aloof.
When you come to me with a hell of a
problem and then you get high handed on
me.
Jack, I don't need to be high handed. I
haven't been sleeping nights. I'm
nervous up all okay?
>> Okay. Okay, forget I said anything.
Let me just get something straight here.
Am I understanding you right? I mean,
are you suggesting getting rid of her?
You won't be involved,
but I'll need some cash.
What will they do?
What will they do? They'll handle it.
I can't believe I'm talking about a
human being, Jack. She's not an
insect. You don't just step on her.
I know.
Playing hardball was never your game.
You never liked to get your hands dirty.
But apparently this woman is for real
and this thing isn't just going to go
away.
I can't do it.
I can't think that way.
So, you while everybody's watching
Kubrick,
this is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit.
This is what Epstein was. He was a
starker.
He was a science spy. He was a starker.
He had buttons.
And we're just all pretending like we
have no memory of this, no idea about
how we're all connected, how the highest
in society are connected to the people
who get things done.
And blackmail.
Blackmail is a lot like we're over
indexed on
in my opinion. Again, who am I? I'm just
a guest, but
>> But this is this
assumption. Well, I I was very early
saying he was a construct when nobody
would listen.
>> Here's the next piece of it.
I think he had buttons.
He had button men at his control.
He made problems disappear. Things went
away.
That's how you make sure
that you have the experience of being a
king rather than a billionaire.
The billionaires had more money than
him.
But they didn't have the ability to make
their problems go away.
And by the way,
I'm not suggesting that all the people
in his orbit were availing themselves of
this as a service.
But if I was a competent investigator, I
would be talking to Woody Allen and
saying,
>> [snorts]
>> "What did you mean by that scene?"
Look, because you think that scene is
directly connected to Woody Allen's
relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
>> No, I think that that scene is directly
connected
to the connection between Hollywood and
Teamsters and unions and organized
crime.
There are people who know how to make
things happen that aren't within the
law.
What is the mafia? We go we watch all
these mafia pictures, right? Mhm.
The mafia is about contract enforcement
when you can't use the courts.
That doesn't sound like what the mafia
is, but that's what it is. It's a
business. What happens when you're in an
illegal business and you can't enforce a
contract?
Right? Yeah.
>> You have to use muscle.
So we we use gentile he like he says
she can be taught we should you want me
to talk to her.
Uh we can handle it.
Th- This is the gentile language
of roughing somebody up,
killing somebody,
and making problems go away.
So the mafia is about business. It's not
about violence.
Okay, so his connection to scientist
though. What was the purpose of that?
We don't know, but I keep saying
>> My assumption is is that he was a uh a
clearinghouse.
That somebody set him up at fair
expense. I'm going to say nine-figure
expense. So I think this was a
nine-figure fortune, hundreds of
millions.
And
what it had was it had the trappings of
multi-billionaire.
It had trillionaire
written all over it for a nine-figure
fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off
of what it was. And I believe that that
that was only possible because there was
a collection of sovereigns behind him.
I don't think it was one nation. I think
it was a bunch of countries.
And the most obvious country is not
Israel. It's the US because he was
operating on US soil.
Do I think Israel was involved?
Certainly. Do I think that the UK was
involved?
I do. Saudi Arabia? I do.
I think that this was a massive piece of
structure con-
confused with a sex scandal and a
blackmail operation. We're we're all
sort of
taking the bait.
So, the sex scandal and all the sex
stuff was sort of keep people happy and
give people a place to go to where they
could have these experiences. If you're
dealing with physicists or some
high-end scientist guy
they don't have access to this. They
probably never been with a beautiful
woman in their life. All of a sudden
they're hanging out with champions
again. I'm not talking about you, [ __ ]
No, I'm
>> I'm sure you're fine. Ain't talking
about love. Let's but let's be a
realistic. Most of these guys aren't
they're not hot. Right? And then all of
a sudden they're around 10s who are
giving them back massages and drugs are
being used and there's this feeling of
anonymity
>> Yeah.
of safety. You can get away with this.
Everybody else is doing it. It's been
going on for decades. It's fine. This is
a place you go and it's fun and they
look forward to it and they probably
also do have intellectual discussions
cuz you are surrounded by Who wouldn't
want in? Right.
Right. So, that's how he ropes you in.
So, what is his
why scientists and what would be the
benefit of having access to these
scientists and having this place on
Zorro Ranch and being able to talk to
these people?
Think about it from the
perspective of who is doing the
constructing rather than the
constructed. So, he's the construct.
Okay. He's an incompetent.
He just lied to Steve Bannon. Mis- You
see him touch his face, classic tell of
lying.
Um
>> Touching your face is a classic tell of
lying? If you look at what he just did,
he Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> 100%. So, he's lying about the
information or he's lying about his
depth
>> liar. Yes, he's lying about his depth of
knowledge.
>> Okay. So, how did I know he was a
construct? In part one of the things
like they're dumb tells that we give
away.
One of his was he was supposed to be a
currency trader. When we say we're
trading currency, we're not trading
currency. We're trading
what are called spot contracts that are
to be settled with an exchange of
currency in 2 days time.
Right? So, in other words, if we if we
if I do a euro trade, it's really a
dollar euro trade, and you and I are
going to trade dollars for euros, and we
agree to do it in 2 days time. And then
if you want to keep the position on, you
exchange that contract for a contract
that will follow
to erase that contract and form a new
contract with which pushes it out 2
days. You call that rolling things over.
Okay.
He didn't know that dollar Canada was on
a 1-day contract rather than a 2-day
contract where everything else. So, in
other words, there was an anomaly.
And anybody in currency trading would
have known that.
Or I forget whether he didn't know that
uh
trading pounds for dollars is called
cable in the business. So, he there were
there were just dumb tells
that he didn't know about foreign
exchange.
Yeah? Mhm. So, you know, he's claiming
to be an FX hedge fund manager to me,
and there were there were stupid tells
like that.
>> Right.
>> he like he knows way too much about my
exactly particular
specialty in mathematics.
Like
the number of people could have come
from would be five or fewer.
Um so, technically what I did my thesis
on is something called self-dual
Yang-Mills theory, which is about
every force other than gravity is a
Yang-Mills force.
Except my thesis was really about
gravity,
and I didn't disclose it, and only
people very very close to me knew that
that's what it was about.
He was obsessed with gravity.
And
he shows up, I think, in the Harvard
math department in 2002 with Dick Gross.
And
clearly he was talking to people in the
Cambridge mathematical physics world
who would have been you know there
There's something called the
Chern-Simons theory which is
mistakenly associated closely with
Yang-Mills theory but is really all
about gravity.
And that my work really shows that
there is a parent theory that has
Chern-Simons theory and gravity as its
two consequences. He knows about that
without knowing anything about the
structure in the subject matter.
He knows about the history of my stuff
and something called Cyborg Witten
theory.
He doesn't know anything concrete. How
does he know all this stuff?
He was in my world.
And he was very focused you know on
I I met him through Jess Staley
um who was at JP Morgan.
Now Jess Staley is deeply implicated in
this. I didn't know that at the time.
And
Jeff Epstein has been mirroring my
entire life, everything that I do.
And I became well known when I was
writing these essays for edge.org and he
was in with John Brockman at the
Brockman Literary Agency.
Uh
when I got married uh the rabbi came
from Harvard Hillel which was a building
now called Rosovsky Hall which he put
together with Les Wexner's money.
Um
he was
funding probably the conference at the
Perimeter Institute that we did on the
financial crisis.
At every turn in my life since I was a
young man
Jeffrey Epstein was
there
in the background even though I only
meet him once. Why do you think that is?
Because we're interested in the exact
same thing. And what is that?
The
the most powerful stuff in the universe.
Why is he interested in that if he
doesn't know the What am I What do I
care about? I care about finance and
financial markets. like about the CPI.
I care about the fate of Israel. I care
about
uh evolutionary theory. I care about
mathematics that goes like
geometry, like the geometry of elliptic
curves, but really more in differential
geometry. You care about physics.
Every time that I care
and I care about the smart the world's
smartest people at a functional level,
not the people with the highest IQ, but
the people who are irreverent enough
to actually move the needle.
So, he and I uh we're just
we're interested in where's the action?
Where's the high-end intellectual action
in the world that actually moves things?
And you know
quite frankly
he was meeting in my offices in San
Francisco while I wasn't aware of it in
2017.
I didn't know that.
Meeting in your offices, meaning he went
to your office and met with who? Well, I
with Peter. That's in the records. About
you? No, I don't know. He he
hopefully not. I I know that I'm in an
email that he sends Peter late in the
story.
But I I I'm not going to discuss
specifics, but
no, I was telling Peter not to deal with
him and Peter thought I was overblowing
the the danger.
I I I he scared me because
I know
what element he came from.
That was not a refined person. That was
a scary, scary person.
That that was a person who came
you know, like the Hesh character on The
Sopranos? Mhm.
Or Moe Greene in the in The Godfather.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's that element.
And you recognized that immediately. I
Well, that was my point in in bringing
up crimes and misdemeanors.
It's not like I don't know people.
I understand that all this. But, what do
you think his purpose was? Like, so
getting connected to all these
scientists, being around all this
knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't
understand like what was the end game?
>> Can I get another drink? Absolutely.
>> Thank you, sir. Okay, can I share this
article with you?
>> Please do. Okay, this was the one I just
pulled up a second ago.
>> could get another ice cube, too, that
would be great. I would just say this.
Um
Jeff can get us an ice cube, please.
I would just down here this kind of this
is a long article. I believe this most
of this comes from the Epstein files
that came out on the DOJ's website. Uh
this the woman who wrote this, she's a
former Boston Globe and New York Times
reporter.
Uh also LA Times.
The summary here is what I was kind of
getting at cuz it kind of it's two or
three paragraphs, but it explains a lot
of what you're asking
here.
Standard framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a
Mossad asset is well supported. Robert
Maxwell, Ghislaine's father, sold Israel
backdoor promise software to Sandia
National Laboratories in 1985. His
eldest daughter, Christine Maxwell,
built the FBI's post-9/11
counterterrorism data warehouse through
her company, Chil- Chiliad. Uh Isabel
Maxwell, Christine's twin sister,
co-founded
Comtouch with Israel Unit
8200 alumni.
Ghislaine ran the human intelligence
operation, the Israel intelligence
network, around both Maxwell and Epstein
is documented and substantial. But, the
intelligence infrastructure supporting
Epstein and Maxwell at Zorro Ranch
points somewhere else or to somewhere
additional. It points to United States
military intelligence, plain and simple.
The contractor who built his encrypted
link to Orbit is American, headquartered
in Georgia, and now holds a Missile
Defense Agency contract. The satellite
uplink was authorized by an American FCC
license. The project was managed out of
New York office. The man who recruited
Epstein as a child served in the
American OSS and his own son was in
charge of the Federal Justice Department
when Epstein died or didn't in its
custody.
>> and his father, so that's referring to.
The man whose ranch provided the ideal
relay point was OSS built American
missile guidance systems and military
drones and just up the road another
former OSS guy Carl Engler sold his New
Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all
time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather.
Hmm.
So, this is what I've been trying to say
all along. The only country that I'm
absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey
Epstein is is us.
You can't operate here.
Look,
right now we are in the middle of
endless anti-Semitic Christmas.
Just goes on forever.
And
you can
>> [snorts]
>> you look at Jeffrey Epstein. I have no
question he was directly connected to
Israel, you know?
Um
but first and foremost,
I believe that he and and I hate when we
use the word asset.
You should use a vaguer word because
those technical things like who's an
agent, who's an operator,
uh
agent is a word used differently by the
FBI and CIA. Every time we try to sound
like we're cool, like we know what the
intelligence community actually is, we
make mistakes because we say something
that it becomes deniable.
You know, so like there's a concept of
knock, non-official cover. Mhm. You
know, if you say somebody, you know, is
a knock and you and you you guess the
wrong distinction,
they can say, "No, he wasn't."
Was he an asset? Was I'm sure that has a
technical meaning. You don't mean it
technically.
You mean, was he in any way affiliated
with the intelligence community? And
just not just the intelligence
community. One of the ways that the
intelligence community functions is as a
cover
for the special operations community.
Right? Covert operations is something
the CIA does through ground branch
that is not intelligence.
So, we call it intelligence and we give
them a free pass all the time.
No, those that those are the guys who do
the wet work.
That's a paramilitary organization.
Right. So, my claim is
that Epstein
is a major piece of structure having
nothing to do with the actor that they
hired.
Okay. So, you think Epstein is
essentially just a construct figurehead
of an intelligence gathering
organization.
>> No.
No?
Epstein is a construct first first of
all. Second of all, there is an
intelligence part of the intelligence
community
and there's a covert operations part of
the intelligence community. Okay. Covert
operations is not intelligence. I know
it's under that roof. Right.
>> That is totally wrong. Got it. Right.
Okay. So, if you want bad things to
happen to somebody, you don't call
intelligence cuz that's just human
intelligence or signals intelligence or
whatever.
You're not going to call a cryptographer
to make a problem go away.
Right. What does this have to do with
the science community?
One,
we have huge amounts of power.
The United States is terribly configured
because we pretend that we're okay doing
everything through our university
system, which shouldn't be done
in an open setting. Like you have to be
honest about the fact that we're badly
configured. What do you mean by that?
>> We didn't know how deadly physics was.
When Rutherford in 1911 said that
there's a neutron,
nobody I'm sure I'm sure nobody said to
him, "Oh my god, you've ended the plan
Now new humanity is doomed." So, it used
to be the case that physics was
something that was like interesting and
fun.
But, now it's like the most deadly thing
you can imagine, as well as being
interesting. And a quick timeline, too.
If you stop and think about that, we're
talking about
>> Yeah. So, literally.
Yeah.
>> 41 years.
So, my claim is that we are walking
around right now
with all of these extremely deadly ninja
prince priests
in our physics departments and our math
departments, who don't even know that
they're deadly ninja priests.
They've never worked on something
classified. They've never solved
problems for our government. But, in
part, we fund our science our scientists
as part of a complex cryptic arrangement
worked out by Vannevar Bush
that is now remembered by essentially no
one.
So, the idea is
you people, Teller, Ulam, Feynman,
Oppenheimer,
Von Neumann,
you are dev group you're you're
SEAL Team Six of the human mind. You're
Delta.
And most of the time you're going to
teach classes.
You know, it's like Indiana Jones is you
know, an archaeologist with a bow tie,
and then he's running around with a whip
and, you know, killing people and Right.
>> [snorts]
>> Okay. That's what physicists and
mathematicians are.
That's why we're funded.
That's why the Department of Energy
funds physics. It's not the Department
of Energy. It's the Department of
Nuclear Weapons.
It's the Department of Physics. So, they
let the physics people work out all
these problems, and then they take
whatever their findings are and apply
them to weapons.
Boom, vroom, and zoom. All right. And
that changed the economy, it changes the
ability to
compute.
This is what This is who I really am.
This is what I really do. And I will not
mouth this narrative that all of my
colleagues will mouth.
Physics is interesting. Yeah, but a lot
of the time it's dull.
You know,
physics is international. Oh, really?
Why do you think the American taxpayers
funding this international effort? Just
to educate Chinese?
For all I know, we're trying to
sterilize the Chinese and the Indians
with string theory.
So, because nobody's talked to me about
this, I can speak freely.
But if you ask me, you know, the Indians
are some of the most aggressive string
theorists on Earth. And my question is,
did do we import them in such large
numbers so that they'll go home and be
ineffectual?
That's crazy. So, that's a real
possibility. Yeah.
>> That string theory exists as a
distraction.
Joe, what do you think the odds are that
a scientist can say, "My failed theory
is the only game in town and not get
laughed out of town?"
Not so good. Yeah. I would imagine in a
free-thinking world, not so good.
>> world, I would say, "Ed Witten, you're
full of shit."
Who talks like that? You're not you
You're the smartest person I've ever met
and you have not earned the right to say
that your failed theory, your disaster
of a catastrophe
of a theory is the most failed theory in
history in physics. And you're saying
it's the only game in town? Who died and
left you king, sir? I want to bring you
to one of the weirdest theories that you
have.
>> All right. Which is you talked about
this
very overly supported
physics department in this upstate
university upstate New York university
that's attached to a hedge fund. Stony
Brook's mathematics department and
physics department. Yeah. Yeah. This is
a weird one. All right. Cuz it's
attached to a hedge fund that does
Bernie Madoff type numbers.
Bernie Madoff is a loser [ __ ]
Joe
Bernie Madoff was regular and that's why
they called him the Jewish T-Bill.
T-Bill? What's a T-Bill? A treasury
security that allowed you to just
earn some very boring, very high rate of
return where you were supposedly having
your money at risk, but you essentially
never lost there were like almost no
down months. Mhm.
Renaissance Technologies
is like, "No, no, no.
Hold my beer.
We're just going to make numbers like
nobody's ever made in human history.
There's nobody in second or third place
relative to Renaissance Technologies
Medallion Fund."
And how is it connected to this
university and what do you think is
going on up there?
One, I don't know.
But something weird.
It's weird as hell.
I I know
I knew Jim Simons personally.
Jim Simons
is a genius.
But a lot of other people are geniuses.
I hate to say it, but you can't swing a
cat in my world without hitting a
genius.
So he was he was great.
But he wasn't that much smarter
than every other genius at that level.
So I would say, you know,
top 100 minds in mathematics and physics
clearly better than that.
Jim started off working for the DIA, the
Defense Intelligence Unit.
Um
supposedly quit out of outrage over
Vietnam,
becomes the super young chairman of the
SUNY Stony Brook Mathematics Department,
holds a lunch center seminar
with
a guy who will become the world's
smartest living physicist, a guy named
C.N. Yang.
And they discover over lunch a
connection between differential
geometry, Jim's
uh specialty, and C.N. Yang's
uh specialty, which is the standard
model.
Jim then quits,
forms
a hedge fund
long before it's cool
with the father of another guest of
yours on this program, Brian Keating.
And the two of them both have medals, so
they call it Medallion because they've
won prizes.
So, what was his name? James Ax, not
Keating.
Uh
and the two of them start this thing,
and it takes off at some level that
nobody's ever seen numbers before.
And then they institute this policy,
which is we're not going to hire
financial experts.
We're only going to hire math
physics people.
So, we're going to hire geometers, we're
going to hire particle theorists,
general relativists, and machine
learning people.
It's like
who who came up with this story?
Do you Do you buy this story?
This is so strange because it it sort of
also mirrors a second story
that was not associated with Brookhaven,
which is the national lab near SUNY
Stony Brook,
but associated with Los Alamos, which is
a story called the Prediction Company.
Except in that case, the name of the
person isn't Jim Simons, it's Doyne
Farmer.
And the prediction company is the analog
of Renaissance. So, what you see is that
once people have a pattern, it seems
like these patterns repeat.
So, my point is if you ask the question,
do we have a Manhattan Project in the
current era?
We don't know. You don't know, I don't
know.
But, if we're allowed to speculate,
question would be where would it be
located?
So, how would you find, for example,
the existence of a boy's school in rural
New Mexico where all of these super
smart people are holed up?
That's a real puzzle. How would you
figure out that Los Alamos was happening
if that was your goal?
Um
you'd look for indirect evidence. Can
you Jamie, can you call up an article
called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy
named, unfortunately, Jack Raper, r a p
e r?
Change your name, bro.
>> right?
Just call yourself Rapper. Add a P or
something.
So,
or a G in 1944, the craziest thing in
the What? Graper?
>> Graper, right, exactly.
Um
There it is. Okay. So, this article
appeared Monday, March 13th, 1944.
Santa Fe, New Mexico.
The story of a secret city
with a mayor
who is the second Einstein working on a
doomsday weapon
where nothing leaks.
And this is from what year? 1944.
Okay. So, the entire
Manhattan Project leaked
because a Cleveland journalist named
Jack Raper happened to vacation in New
Mexico
and stumbled
on the greatest secret ever kept.
Really?
How can we not know this, Joe? Wow.
And it's all about Oppenheimer.
Residents must stay. Dr. Oppenheimer is
a Harvard graduate, attended Cambridge,
received a PhD from Gottingham
University in Germany, Germany.
Professor of Physics, University of
California, California Institute of
Technology, and is a fellow of too many
organizations to enumerate. And so, they
were
recognizing that Oppenheimer was doing
something. They knew that he was working
on a doomsday device. Uncle Sam has
placed the city in charge of two men.
The men who command the soldiers
I can't read it. To see that the garbage
and rubbish are collected, the streets
kept up, the electric light and plant
and the water works functioning, and all
other metropolitan work operating smooth
is Colonel somebody.
I don't know his name, but it isn't so
important because the mister bigger the
city is called Professor Dr. J. Robert
Oppenheimer.
Called the second Einstein by the
newspapers of the West Coast. So, what
I'm trying to say is
Jack Rapier never got a Pulitzer Prize.
Died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who
was the other guy who running was
running the town, decided to send him to
the Pacific to punish him for being the
best journalist in America.
And when he found out he was 60 years
old, they decided, "Okay, we're we're
just going to ignore this story and hope
everyone else does because it's too
crazy to be real."
Now, what I'm telling you right now is
Rapier never figured out what Los Alamos
was, but he knows that it doesn't make
sense. And I'm telling you Renaissance
Technologies doesn't make sense.
So, these different what? Another
widespread belief is that he's
developing ordinance and explosives.
Supporters of this guess argue that it
accounts for the number of mechanics
working on the production of a single
device.
And there are others who would tell you
tremendous explosions have been heard.
Oh, that Jack Raper with his overactive
imagination. Haha. The problem with
conspiracy theorists is that they say
the darndest things, Joe.
Okay. So,
what do you think they're working on?
These people at
this upstate New York University. Well,
what are we not working on? In other
words, how do you discover what we're
actually up to is in part you listen for
the holes.
What do I work on?
I work on the ability to get out of the
solar system.
That is my life's mission.
I think Elon is a bit of a [ __ ]
>> [laughter]
>> Okay.
How so? I don't know. He won't meet with
me. Well,
it's okay.
>> Maybe because you called him a [ __ ]
Yeah.
No, but
>> Maybe he's busy. Maybe he's trying to
make chicks pregnant.
No.
>> [laughter]
>> He meets with me.
>> does to with recreation.
Elon's a genius and Elon is trying
to replace scientists with Grok.
And one of the things I I was on an
Indian podcast uh called the guy's name
is BeerBiceps Guy, Ranveer. He's the Joe
Rogan of India.
And
>> What's his name? Uh Ranveer Allahbadia.
Can you find him? Shout out to Ranveer.
Yeah. So, Ranveer is a friend of mine in
Versova and
I went on his podcast and I before
SpaceX and X and XAI merged, I said
um
I said, "Look, I don't think SpaceX is
Elon's space program.
His space program is Grok.
Elon doesn't trust scientists for good
reason cuz they're weak.
So, he's building his own scientist from
when when we were strong.
He's going to have it read the corpus of
physics done by competent physicists who
actually care about the physical world
so he doesn't have to deal with any of
us.
That's why he won't meet. It's not
because he's not interested, not because
he doesn't know.
Um, I invited him to the talk as I did
you yesterday.
The goal is to get out of the solar
system and we're so far away from
everything good that there's no way of
doing it under relativity.
So, why are we not researching the only
thing
that can save us, which is
diversification? We need to spread out
to the largest number of habitable
worlds possible.
So, this implies some sort of a new
propulsion system.
>> This implies new science. Stop thinking
technology. There's no way that you
can't engineer your way out of a science
problem. You have to science your way
out.
>> And what would be that science?
Post-Einstein, post-relativity. That's
what I do.
And how would that apply to us leaving
the solar system? We don't live in
space-time. Space-time has a speed
limit.
Explain that. If you can only go the
speed of light at your best and you
can't even get anywhere close to that.
How are you going to get to something
four years light years away?
>> Okay.
Um,
in a fantasy world. By the time you go
and come back even assuming all No, no,
no.
>> Assume you can go at under the speed of
light, just under.
You can use time dilation
and relativistic
>> effects to your benefit.
But it's going to cost you eight years
to go and come back. Right.
Okay, I don't want to do that. If I'm
going to explore the cosmos, I don't
want to use I don't want to live in
space-time.
>> are the alternatives?
The observers.
The successor to space-time, I'm happy
to predict this on your show, will be
named the observers, which is a
combination of not just using a
four-dimensional space-time manifold,
but a 14- and a four-dimensional space
simultaneously. This was what I was
talking about at the university
yesterday.
And how would that like when you say the
difference between science and
technology?
So
>> How would that science be applied? If we
look at the surface of this table, I
can't do this to it. Can't spread it
apart, move it, right?
>> to zoom. Right.
>> It's a multi-touch gesture invented
around 2003 or something, debuted at
TED.
But if I come to this device, I can do
that. Your phone. Right. So imagine that
this is space-time. Okay.
And this is the observers.
So if I want to go to a distant
star,
there's no way I'm going to just go
really fast. Right.
>> That's dumb.
Um and I need an energy source and I
need to do things that we can't normally
do. You have to jailbreak space-time.
If Einstein is in force, we all die. If
we go beyond Einstein, some of us will
live and some of us will die.
And what would be the energy that you
would need in order to do this? So that
how do you unlock this?
One is maybe it's not that energetic to
to do these things. Energy is is um
technically
time momentum.
You can talk about momentum in the X
direction, momentum in the Y, momentum
in the Z. Fine. What's momentum in the
time direction?
It has a different name. We don't call
energy time momentum, but that's what it
is.
So first of all, I don't believe that
there's one direction of time. There's
no arrow of time. That's not true.
I believe that time is
multi-dimensional. The only dimension
that has an ordering
is one dimension.
So in other words, if I say to you
um
Joe has two cigars, Eric has none.
Who has more cigars?
Joe.
Okay.
Joe has two cigars, but Eric has three
glasses
and no cigars.
Joe has one glass and two cigars. Who
has more stuff? Well, now it's not clear
because Eric has more glasses than Joe.
But Joe has more cigars. So, in two
dimensions, we no longer can say
this is better than that
for things where you have more of one
and less of another. Okay.
Time is like that.
In one dimension, there's an arrow.
There's an ordering. We call it It's
It's It's you know, like a well-ordered
set or something. In two dimensions, all
bets are off and and two and higher.
The number of dimensions in total is
going to be either five or seven.
And
each of those dimensions has a different
kind of energy.
So, in other words, energy is unique
because there's only one time dimension.
But as soon as
ener- time has multiple dimensions, you
can talk about multiple forms of energy.
Just the way you can talk about momentum
in the X direction, momentum in the Y
direction, or momentum in the Z
direction.
So, in part, what I'm trying to do is to
jailbreak spacetime. That's what I'm
actually doing.
And I'm doing it with zero support, with
no confirmation that this is real
because something is controlling my
entire community
to make this funny haha just like
Forbidden City.
Was Jack Kraper Jack Raper has gone mad.
He thinks that there's a city in New
Mexico where there's a mayor who's a
second Einstein developing a doomsday
weapon. Is that funny?
What a loon that guy. What an idiot.
Haha.
That's what's going on, Joe.
So, how do you think that
technology could be applied to these
ideas in order to create some mode of
travel.
Pinch to zoom, Joe. Right, but how? How
would that be done? So, right now we're
in a four-dimensional world. Call that
flatland. Okay. Imagine that there are
10 perpendicular dimensions called
symmetric two tensors.
Four of those
are spatial
directions
and six of them temporal
or
four of them are
uh temporal and six of them spatial. I
can't tell you one of those two. Okay.
But they're additionally either four or
six extra time dimensions
or six or four space dimensions.
We have to gain access to break out of
flatland. We live in flatland. We don't
know we live in flatland.
And I know
what that
Technically, the name is fiber
dimension.
What it is, we have to gain access to
it, which is discovering that somebody
gives you a an obsidian rock
that has a property that you've never
seen before called pinch to zoom.
So, I need to make the distance to the
nearest star small
so I can go with reasonable speed.
Or instantaneously.
Mhm, I don't need instantaneously.
I I I if I have something four
light-years away and I can make it 100
ft away, I can walk 100 ft
easily enough.
You know, I can I can I can I can I can
I can I can I can push something. Right.
Okay.
>> So, the idea is if I can gain access to
the fiber
the distance becomes relatively
immaterial.
So, if you think that these physicists
are working on this and all all these
>> No, I didn't say that I think
>> Okay. I'm saying if anybody is working
on that.
>> Either two One of two things is
happening. Either we have become the
stupidest nation on Earth destroying our
own ability to do physics.
We gave away the store. We're morons.
That's possible.
Or
we're doing it in private.
And you feel like it's possible to hide
all this from the general public?
>> point is you're not going to hide it.
They No, no, no. The same way they did
it before would be spoiled by
satellites.
Right now, if you tried to do Los
Alamos, you couldn't do it because of
the satellites.
>> Right. So, it has to be hidden in
plain sight.
It has to look like something that
isn't.
So, if you asked me
Let's imagine you asked me a different
question. Let's imagine you asked me,
"Eric,
nobody's willing to give you money.
Nobody's willing to employ you. Nobody's
willing to have you speak at their
seminar. You despite the fact you have
complete blue chip credibility.
How would you
how would you organize a secret team
to get control of our adversaries, the
world, and the
ability to traverse the cosmos?
I sure sure as [ __ ] wouldn't build a
chemical rocket company. That's dumb.
But, I do it as cover.
And I sure as [ __ ] wouldn't do things in
an open university department.
Here's what I'd do.
I'd build an organization
that could rationalize billions passing
through it with almost no footprint.
Because what I really need is
whiteboards and coffee and smart people
and a secure campus and a story.
That's all I need.
God, wouldn't you love to have access to
what they're doing? No, cuz I'm going to
do it myself. How you going to do that?
Cuz I know I know really smart people,
Joe.
Don't you need like insane amounts of
money and a laboratory somewhere?
>> You know,
it's funny. Like Sam Altman is racing,
Dario Amodei is racing, uh Elon Musk for
superintelligence.
So
I ask myself, if you could have premium
subscriptions to Grok, Gemini, xAI,
um
Sorry.
Uh Grok, Gemini,
Claude,
all of them. Mhm. Or you could have
Edward Frenkel's home phone number,
which would you choose? I'd choose Ed
Frenkel's home phone number.
So, I get to call Ed Frenkel whenever I
want to.
That's smart.
Look, there there are people that you
don't even know about
who are just terrifyingly smart, who
Allow me to assemble that team.
That's what, you know, I Is that
literally what you're trying to do? Oh,
yeah. And how are you doing it?
I don't know. I stayed with Ed for 5
days in Berkeley.
I got him and
another colleague
who's also terrifying. I'm using
Soviets, Joe. Ex-Soviets. Okay.
>> guys haven't haven't lost the magic.
And uh
you know, I had Frenkel and a guy named
Misha Kapranov come down
for 5 days to kick the [ __ ] out of my
theory.
It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. We're
drinking vodka at like a.m.
having insane meals,
and just working our asses off the way
we're supposed to.
How did it go? Amazing.
What did they think about your theory?
So
far, Okay. So,
in other words, the story
Can we just pull up
I just want to do this for my own
reasons. Can we pull up the lead the
pinned tweet on my Twitter profile,
which by the way, thank you for
retweeting?
No problem. Yeah.
Love you. Love you, too. What is it?
Let's go to it real quick.
>> [snorts]
>> So,
first of all, I want to show off the
header.
Can we go up to the top of the header
before we do that?
Those
two
formulas,
the bottom one says CFJ.
C is Sean Carroll.
The middle F is uh Fields, and J is
Roman Jackiw, a professor at MIT.
Sean Carroll's second most um cited
paper is has this as its action or
Lagrangian.
Right above that is my action or
Lagrangian.
And what you see all those zeros are
things that Sean Carroll doesn't know
how to handle.
And that thing where you see a P, you
see star parentheses P on the bottom
line, not the bottom second from the
bottom,
is Sean's relativity-violating
uh hack.
Sean Carroll did not disclose
that geometric unity
is a direct competitor to his most cited
work. So, now if we can roll the clip,
it'll make more sense as to what's going
on.
And let's blow that thing up to full
screen.
>> of the situation
uh is nearly constant for reasons that
completely elude me.
Sean?
The good news is I have read Eric's
paper. Here it is. I actually have it
here, right here. First thing you got to
do is make sure that your theory makes
contact with modern physics as it is
understood. If you have a new paper out,
physicists are going to look at it.
They're going to look for, you know,
where's the Lagrangian?
>> [music]
>> So, this is for people that are just
listening, this is showing that you have
Lagrangians in your
these equations.
>> Carroll lying. Right.
Did you
Did you their interactions are in there
as well, but you call did you call him
out on this on the show? I couldn't
believe that he'd do this. So, you
didn't say anything?
>> Proton stability that's in there as
well. So, essentially he's lying to make
it seem like your theory doesn't work
when you have all the things that you're
saying your theory doesn't have.
>> of two lies. We don't know which lie.
Okay. There's a lie that says
uh I read your paper.
So, he didn't
>> I'm willing to
entertain the fact that he's lying that
he read my paper. Okay. And I'm willing
to
entertain the fact that he's lying
that
he read my paper and he's going to deny
that these things are in there. But,
he's what I don't know which lie he's
telling. Right. One of them's a lie. One
of them's a lie.
>> Either he lied saying he read your paper
or he lied saying he definitely lied
saying those things aren't in there cuz
he did say those things aren't in there.
That's a lie. Right. He just says
there's none of that. None of that. None
of that. Okay. So, my claim is
>> respond like right there?
Joe, what am I
just Let's just for one more second.
I'm in a world that makes absolutely no
sense and I don't want to disappear.
I'm not suicidal.
I have been the major competitor of
string theory for 42 years. I'm not a
podcaster. I'm not a guest. I'm not an
entertainer.
What I really do for a living
I'm not paid to do.
Okay, I understand that. When he's
saying
>> know what to do. You just didn't know
what to do in the moment.
>> I mean, what do I want? Do I want a
legal battle? Right. I've got a defense
contractor. I'm one of the world's
largest companies is a defense
contractor which is has a campaign
against me for reasons I don't
understand.
Just have have no clue
why anyone would say you don't have a
Lagrangian. And so he's
attached to a defense contractor?
>> No, no, no, but there's a there's a
By virtue of the fact that the
conspiracy against me, and I I literally
mean technically a conspiracy, is
organized through these Discord servers.
And
there's an engineer
at Google who for example can't a paper
against me that lies about what it is
that I'm up to.
Um published on the archive, which is
where physicists share their stuff.
So the the engineer will say, "How how
about you do a talk at Google, Sabine
Hossenfelder?" And Sabine Hossenfelder
will come to Google
and she'll be given her thing if if he
will be allowed to post an anti-Eric
screed or paper or whatever you want to
call it against me.
So what I'm trying to say is I'm acting
as Jack Raper in some way. Okay. I'm
doing stuff and saying stuff like
Epstein is an is a construct. Mhm. Well,
okay, now you can say that, but you
couldn't say that when I started saying
it.
You can't say Ed Witten is driving
theoretical physics off of a cliff. You
can't say
you know, the reason that uh
we have the particles that we do has it
that there's a 10-dimensional fiber in a
fiber bundle above space-time that isn't
acknowledged. For some reason the things
that we're talking about on this show
are dangerous.
We're having dangerous conversations,
Joe. That's what JRE does.
And sometimes you you go all the way and
sometimes you puss out. But like this is
a dangerous place because they can't
tell you what to do. And that's why they
put you in like a different color on the
screen during COVID
cuz you went against the narrative.
The narrative was go get vaccinated.
The narrative was if you think that
COVID came from anything
other than a wet market, you're a
racist.
Every time you've gone up against the
narrative, they try to destroy you.
You're still here?
But you've been badly badly bruised at
various times.
You are a danger to the narrative as I
am a danger to the narrative. That's one
of the reasons why this is like I don't
know what is this? My eighth, sixth,
some large number of appearances. We are
scary to the narrative and the narrative
can no longer be held together.
I want to bring you back to the
technology that's involved.
So, when we're talking about
this
program that may or may not exist.
>> Right. And when we're talking about
UAPs
>> Yeah. for lack of a better term. Do you
think that these are connected? And do
you think that Yes. So, one one of the
things that I've suspected and many I'm
not the only one, many people suspected
this. It's very odd that a lot of these
sightings that these
Air Force pilots and Navy pilots that
they find they're over and near military
bases. That's right. Which is where you
would practice.
Or restricted airspace, which is where
you'd use your stuff.
And when they see these things
and they have these experiences with
these things
the people that they report them to
don't seem shocked.
Right. Yeah. I mean, this is um with
Ryan Graves' experience. This is what
Commander David Fravor experienced that
they tell these people about these
things and no one is like, "What the
[ __ ] are you talking about?"
Right, because they know. Because this
might be ours.
So, some of this is ours. Okay. Some of
this is foreign nations and some of this
is
is not understood. That's what I
believe. Okay.
So, some of these things they're think
they're seeing is a part of some
undisclosed program. I believe that for
example some of this is not craft
but the ability to create the illusion
of craft.
Okay. Some of this I believe is craft.
So the ability to create like a
hologram?
I don't know.
Like a hall
like yeah.
>> projected plasma.
>> That's right. Okay. Some Which we know
they can do. Which we've seen them we we
showed the videos.
>> we've seen limited versions of this.
Imagine that those things scale up.
Okay. Okay.
If there were no aliens or craft
I would want to create a program
if I was in the it disinformation
business. I would want to create one of
these things.
Right? Because there's a god-shaped hole
in all of our souls and minds.
And so aliens and spacecraft fill that
hole. Right. So there's like a god for
atheists.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's god for atheists.
So first of all
I would think that we were incompetent
if we didn't have something that created
a UFO ghost stories.
Why wouldn't you use that?
I also believe that there are foreign
nations that may have leapfrogged us.
You know clearly we saw that where we
invested in aircraft carriers and other
people invested in drones and they
realized that this was about economic
warfare. Cost too much to shoot down
cheap stuff to make.
So we're in the process of having our
Suez moment if you will
in Iran if we're not careful.
Where it is revealed that our
lead in aircraft carrier groups is not
what we thought it was.
Mhm.
So we can get to Iran in a second if you
like but what I believe is that
um we've been dumb.
We've been extremely stupid since the
end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and
Dick Morris ushered in an era of
stupidity that I cannot even believe is
so antithetical to my notion of my
belonging to the smartest nation on
Earth.
Um,
that we've just basically gutted our
smart people. The smart people don't
even know each other. Now, what is going
on with the technology and what we're
seeing,
we've lost control of some airspace.
That's what I believe is I don't know
that to be true, but I believe in with
very high probability.
>> think that's what San Antonio is about?
San Antonio? No, I'm sorry. El Paso.
>> Yeah, I I I believe that El Paso is not
about cartel drones. That's true. Okay.
>> that's not to say that there isn't a
cartel drone here or there,
but I don't think we shut down airspace
in El Paso to deal with cartel drones.
Right. So,
what were the experiences that people
were were reporting and like like what
like what do you know about what
happened in El Paso?
>> Well, there's what I know,
which is all second hand.
So, what I know what I can say I know
first hand is the reporting of various
things by various people, but I probably
had five plus conversations about White
Sands.
People who don't know each other not
connected. So, whoever is supposed to be
keeping White Sands a secret failed.
Okay, so
I believe that White Sands
has an infestation problem with stuff
that is
either not ours
or is being blue team red teamed
ours and not told to our people.
How would you deal with the following
puzzle? So, maybe we're putting our own
our own one group is putting our drones
or something in the air.
>> Right. And another group is being told,
how would you deal with this problem? We
we we we've lost control of our
airspace, but something is going on in
New Mexico.
What was the descriptions
of these drones? What does it say here?
Airspace at the center of the brief, but
highly publicized incident. February 11,
2026, FAA abruptly announced 10-day
shutdown of the airspace over El Paso
International Airport. The restriction
was lifted after just a few hours.
Pentagon anti-drone testing. The
Pentagon was testing high-energy laser
counter-drone technology out of the
nearby Fort Bliss military base. The FAA
grounded commercial flights out of an
abundance of caution because the
unannounced testing. Cartel drone
activity. Officials from the Trump
administration cited incursions from
Mexican drug cartel drones breaching US
airspace as the primary reason for the
defense systems that the defense the
defense systems were deployed in the
first place. Lack of communication.
White House officials later noted that
the FAA administrator implemented the
surprise flight ban without notifying
the Pentagon, Department of Homeland
Security, or officials.
That seems crazy. It's This story
doesn't hang together.
>> That part doesn't hang together at all.
>> Well, that's the thing.
>> [clears throat]
>> administrator implemented a flight ban
without notifying the Pentagon, the
Department of Homeland Security, or the
White House officials? That doesn't even
seem legal.
Joe, but I don't know.
You and I both have at least 105 IQs.
These are like 65 IQ stories.
Yeah. They Well,
the Mexican drone cartel one seems like
a dopey narrative. But maybe there are
actually Mexican drone car drones. I'm
sure the cartels have drones.
>> cartels have drones, and we're going to
use the fact that New that El Paso is
close to White Sands.
>> Right. But what did What was the
reported drone activity? Do you know
anything about it? Like what what
supposedly Yeah. Not going to say. Ooh.
No.
>> Mysterious.
Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as
much as I can. I understand.
>> the thing.
>> around. Okay.
But I mean I'd like to know like what
Right, but I'm
>> Tell me later.
No. [ __ ] No, it's not like that.
Look.
>> [laughter]
>> Oh, [ __ ] you both.
Let's play that awesome music again.
There's a video from the AP put out just
4 days ago that says there is a cartel
attacking lots of people. Well, I'm sure
there's cartel What I'm trying to say is
No, no, I know, I know, I know. Every
single person who knows how to keep a
secret knows how to use the truth to
hide a lie. Right, of course. So what
And [clears throat] and that's always
been done.
>> So the the thing that I'm doing is I am
I am an Amer- I am
I am so grateful to this country. I love
my country.
I am going to maintain the ability
till my dying day to help my country and
advise my country.
My country is a [ __ ]
I don't know why she's acting this way.
I don't know why she's been stupid since
1992.
Right?
But she's been acting like a [ __ ] since
the Clinton administration.
We're bad at being America and I I can't
stand it. So I'm going to with I would
love to tell you everything I know. I
would love to penalize people for being
bad at their jobs.
But I'm going to retain the ability to
advise my government till my dying day.
And so I'm not going to say what I know.
Okay. It says this is from New York
Times inside the debacle that led to the
closure of El Paso's airspace FAA citing
grave risk of fatalities from a new
technology being used on the Mexican
border got caught in a stalemate with
the Pentagon which deemed the weapon
necessary.
Whatever. Okay, who knows?
>> [ __ ]
>> stories as you can spin, right? Throw
them all out there, right? Throw a bunch
of them.
>> Look, our press was a largely set up in
World War II to go to war.
And it's been that way ever since.
And during the Walter Cronkite era and
the Eric Sevareids and all that kind of
stuff that nobody really remembers,
we had a measure of freedom to talk
about things. And it got too much, and
in the middle of the 1970s, we had the
Church and and Pike Committee hearings,
and we freaked out.
We found out who we really were.
We are both the super naive squeaky
clean state
and the baddest of the bad MFs.
We're both things. We're a hybrid.
We're extremely Machiavellian. We're
extremely naive. There's no way of
stopping that being what we are.
So, you think that it's very possible
that there's a foreign nation that has
some sort of technology that can invade
our airspace at will. And that's what
the shutdown was. I believe that
somebody may have leapfrogged us as they
have leapfrogged us in drone technology.
So, then they have leapfrogged us in
some
propulsion technology.
>> that there's a nation
in Asia,
Mhm. China,
which
puts on amazing drone shows and buys up
our academics who aren't being paid
cuz we're sitting around bitching, "What
have you What have you technical people
done for us?
Why do you deserve to be paid from
taxpayer dollars?" And the answer is,
"Oh, shut the [ __ ] up."
We created your economy, you stupid
[ __ ]
We're the baddest of the bad. We are the
source of your wealth and your strength,
and you come to us bitching about your
taxpayer dollars?
You deserve to lose to China, you little
Mhm.
I I have no words for the also the new
crop of tech billionaires who are bitten
by COVID.
What do you mean
Well, they think that Anthony Fauci was
a scientist and so they they believed in
science before Fauci and now they don't
believe in science.
>> [sighs and gasps]
>> I don't understand what you're saying.
>> my god. I don't I literally don't
understand what you're saying.
>> All right. Silicon Valley had a huge
about-face
when they figured out that Fauci was
full of [ __ ]
A lot of them bankrolled our
universities.
They supported science. They were
Democrats.
And then somehow COVID happened.
And because they had this childlike
belief in universities, science, and the
Democratic Party, they ran to the
Republican Party
like children.
Not understanding
that
Anthony Fauci was not a scientist. COVID
is a giant lie.
Collins and Fauci and Ralph Baric and
Peter Daszak are menaces
to the credit of science of science.
The credit rating of science went into
the toilet with Silicon Valley. And a
new a new idea was born,
which is that the engineer is
everything. The scientist is nothing.
Everything should be a a for-profit, not
a nonprofit.
If artificial intelligence should
replace our best people.
I mean
the
This is the spell that
many of our
Like I I would like to think that I
count Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel as
friends. Sam Altman is a friend.
I don't know what happened to all of
these people.
They're just wrong.
And they're rich. And somehow we like
our public intellectuals became our
billionaires.
What does Naval say? What does Mark say?
What does Elon say?
Everybody who's talking their book is
now our our public intellectuals.
And quite honestly, they're all
brilliant.
But they're all highly motivated.
Mhm.
That's fact. Yeah.
But
where are our scientists? Where are our
intellectuals? Where are our people who
care more about
How do I say this?
Glory
and immortality rather than private jet
travel.
You could not give get me
to give up my claim on immortality for
private jet travel.
I don't understand the fascination with
private jets.
They're cool.
Mildly.
Well, it's not just private jets. Well,
what is it?
I think they attach
monetary gain
to
uh
success.
And above and beyond needs. So, it
becomes a a way of measuring success.
They look at numbers above and beyond
everything else. My craziest brilliant
friend who's completely insane is a guy
named Michael Vassar.
Michael Vassar had a made a point to me
as he often does, which is really
dangerous. And he said, "When did the
world's smartest people
stop caring about their own game and
their own prizes and start focusing on
the prizes of the people pursuing wealth
and status?"
And he said, "Somehow when scientists
care about McLarens and Lamborghinis,
something terrible has happened.
And
Boy, has that
like a splinter in my mind turning over.
I can't get rid of it. He's right.
He's just right.
By the way, this is a guy who
also told me that Dario Amadei was like
a really important person I needed to
pay attention to him when I He was just
some guy that I knew.
Um
Vassar's point is
the scientists stop having their own
game with their own prizes and so
they've started caring about things that
they should be completely ignoring.
I don't have a McLaren and I couldn't
care less.
I do care about immortality. I do care
about recognition. I do care about my
name being removed from things that I've
done.
And other people's, you know,
cherry-topping going on top of it.
Quite honestly, we're a different game.
We're a different species.
There's a You know that that song uh One
Night in Bangkok?
>> Mhm.
It came from a musical about chess.
And he says in the lyrics to that song,
which we don't remember,
he says uh
I'd have, you know, something like I'd
have you over, I would invite you, but
the queens we use would not excite you.
So, you can go back to your massage
parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is
that the chess world
doesn't care
about who got laid.
Chess world cares about the evergreen
game, the immortal game. What did
Fischer do to Spassky? What
What's going on with Magnus Carlsen?
Somehow the science world stopped caring
about our own stuff.
And
we've got to make sure that the public
intellectuals are not dominated by
billionaires. As much as I love these
guys,
they're my friends.
>> you're right. Yeah, they're smart as
hell. They wouldn't have gotten to be
billionaires otherwise, but they're
always talking their book.
Always.
Look at, you know, people are like
famous libertarians and they become
surveillance people. You know, they they
they
Bill Gates, you know, what is he just
buying farmland for?
Right. To be He wants to make sure that
we have a steady supply of of food of
something.
Um we've got to stop the addiction to
billionaires as the only people we trust
because at least they're rich.
Let's end it there.
Good. I got to wrap this up, but I
appreciate you very much. This is very
good. Yeah? Yeah, it was a good one.
>> Great seeing you, Joe. Great seeing you,
too. And I think your the last point is
that should resonate with a lot of
people. It's dead right.
Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe.
Well, maybe we'll go to another planet
together. Love it.
>> [music]
>> Bye, everybody.
>> [music]
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