that movie War Dogs. You did time with
one of these guys.
>> I did time with Efron from Debor, the
guy played by Jonah Hill. And how much
time did your guy get? The Jonah Hill
guy. He was only going to get four
years. [music]
>> Okay. But he
>> Hello, Mox.
>> Hello, Tom Simon.
>> It is so good to be here with you again
this Wednesday, high noon, for a new
episode of the Tom Simon and Matthew Cox
Show.
>> You're very specific. Uh, well, I want
people to know that that's what time the
episodes drop every week. We're still
kind of getting people into the swing of
things, right? We're not the we're not
um you know MASH or Seinfeld or any of
these shows that have gone on for
thousands of episodes. We're still
relatively new to people and I suspect
that most of the people watching are
still watching us u because they found
us through the inside true crime with
Matthew Cox feed and so it's really
important that I get them to follow the
Tom Simon and Matthew Cox feed so we can
kind of build an audience here separate
and apart from your massive titan of a
show
>> to subscribe and hit the bell.
>> Subscribe and hit the bell. That's the
thing. That's what they got to do. And
we're not asking for their money. We're
not we're not selling merch. We're not
doing anything. We just want them to
follow us and enjoy the show.
>> We should get shirts at some point.
Maybe we'll get shirts.
>> Let's build a following first. If if if
this thing dies on the Vine because no
one watches and no one follows, then
it'll just be an embarrassment in your
otherwise hugely successful media
career.
I mean, I got [laughter] I got private
investigations to follow.
I'll swing a hammer. Yeah. But um but
yeah, so I I always wonder if people are
finding the show for the first time and
they don't know who we are. And so I
feel like every now and then we should
just introduce ourselves. My name is Tom
Simon. I'm a licensed private
investigator in Florida, but before that
I was an FBI special agent for 26 years.
And really quickly, who are you?
Everyone knows me.
>> Okay. My name is Matthew [laughter]
My name is Matthew Cox. I am a Let's go.
Should we say former con man? Do we My
name is Matthew Cox. I'm a former con
man. former inmate and I am now a true
crime writer and a podcaster and I have
a podcast called Inside True Crime.
Yeah. And what we do on our show
predominantly and we we get off on
tangents and have some fun and laugh and
uh and share some comedy with the
people. But we're really the only true
crime game show on in the world. And the
way it works is called Guess the
Sentence. And so what I'm going to do, I
have 10 crime stories prepared. I have
the case files right here um from
usually from from the federal system
nearly always often times it's the FBI.
Some of them are cases that I've had
some involvement in during my time as an
agent, but most of them are other
people's cases. And what I'm going to do
is I'm going to tell you the entirety of
these crime stories. You know, who did
it, what was the crime, how did they get
caught, who investigated, what were the
conviction like and all that. And then
your job, Matthew Cox, as the contestant
on your own game show is to guess the
sentence within a 25% variance. Nice.
That's That's how we're going to do it.
>> And if I get 50% of them right, I win.
>> You win. You win. And you've been on a
roll lately.
>> Yeah. You uh you won the last episode.
So, uh we're all very proud of you.
>> Yeah. I have people in the comment
section that that say like this. It'll
be like a husband and wife who will say,
"Man, my wife and I will sit there and
guess the whole time."
>> I love that. The idea of a family
sitting around watching us on their
giant HD TV. I mean, at this point, a
YouTube show is nothing to be
embarrassed about. It's just another
stream. It's just another streaming
network.
>> It's like online dating. started off
people made fun of you and now that's
what three out of five marriages a
relationship. Yeah. Three out of five.
Right.
>> And I'd be curious if the audience would
want the answers in like a folder in the
description cuz I think it's interesting
to know what the answer is and watch as
you guys
>> go back and forth back and forth.
>> I think we experimented with that on the
previous iteration of the show where you
were putting stuff up on the screen on
the front end about what it was and in
the comments people hated that. They
want to play along.
>> Yeah. So, I think that's why I said like
a folder like so it' be optional.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> But anyways,
>> producer Colby, whatever you say is good
with me because you are a genius. You're
the one who brought Matt Cox out of the
halfway house and into into a million
people subscription, 1.2 million.
>> One thing I'd like to do though before
we kind of get into the game show is
tell you a little FBI or private
investigative story and play what would
Matt Cox do.
>> Okay? Sometimes it's very clear and
there's a question, but I want you to
think about if you were in my shoes as a
private investigator or just a person uh
what you would do under those
circumstances and because I think people
love looking inside the mind of Matthew
Cox, somebody who ostensibly knows more
about crime than any FBI agent ever did.
So the first story I want to tell you
today is not part of the game show, but
it involves when I was starting out as a
private investigator. What do you think
the average salary is or the average you
How much does a private investigator an
average private investigator in the US
make per year?
>> Oh wow. Um it's funny because I've met a
couple private investigators and their
fees seemed really high to me but then
they don't work constantly. So I would
say on average I don't know between 100
to 150,000. Does that seem reasonable?
>> You're high.
>> Am I high? I mean, [snorts] not not
medically high, but you're guessing. The
average private investigator in America
makes between $55 and $60,000 a year.
That's horrible. It's terrible. And most
of them are making that money doing
surveillances,
>> right?
>> Okay. And a lot of the surveillances um
are, you know, you're working for an
insurance company or a, you know, a a
bigger private investigative firm that
is functioning like a temp agency where
you're they're charging the insurance
company 50 bucks an hour to see somebody
who's cheating on their workman's
compensation who's who's said they threw
their back out and they can't work and
they're getting a check every month and
then they have a private investigator
there filming them retarding their roof
or something like that. And or the
cheating wife, cheating husband thing.
And uh and so it's a lot of work. It's
sitting in the car. It's peeing in a
Gatorade bottle. It's watching a door
that goes for 8 hours without opening.
And people think that surveillances are
really interesting, but they're kind of
miserable. Honestly, it's not a fun like
when you're with the FBI, it's fun
because you got a dozen agents and
you're kind of following the guy around
and you know he's a criminal and stuff
like that. But for your average private
investigator, and I'm not putting them
down. I mean, they're doing great work,
but it's just really hard kind of
mind-numbing work for very little pay.
And when I retired from the FBI in 2021
and became a private investigator, I
told myself that I kind of wanted a
better life than that. The problem is
you can't just sit back and wait for the
billionaire to come to you and say,
"Please find my stolen gold or figure
out who killed my daughter." And uh and
then charge them through the roof. You
got to work and you got to and the way
you get clients is by doing a really
good job for these clients. Maybe they
give you a positive Google review. Maybe
they refer you to a friend of theirs.
And so I was taking a lot of jobs that
were
>> or you go on a podcast
>> or right or you decide
>> or you you do the lo the most recent
trend on TikTok.
>> Or you did the only thing that mattered
in my career is is make social media
videos, get get a half a million
followers across platforms, then people
hire you and uh and or go on wildly
successful true crime podcast and latch
yourself to a shooting star like Matt
Cox. So um anyway, let's go back to when
I was starting as a private
investigator. I was taking surveillance
gigs and I was I was charging more than
most people did, but not enough to
sustain life. And I get a call from a
fellow who said tells me that that he
had he has a c he's divorced and he they
got a beautiful son together and they
have a shared custody thing 50/50 in
whatever city he lived in. and uh and
but his wife, his ex-wife met somebody
on the internet and has taken their son
against the custody agreement and moved
across the country to Florida to um to
be with this strange guy. He wants to
get this thing into family court um so
they can decide, you know, like so they
can figure out how this is going to work
cuz you can't just like kidnap your own
kid if there's a custody agreement. So
>> there's no allegations of abuse against
him. There's no allegations of abuse
against her. It's just she met a guy
online and she went to go be with him in
uh in you know in a city far far away in
Florida from where he lives,
>> right?
>> And so he said, "Can you" He goes, "I
don't want you to do anything. I just
want you to find them so we can serve
them with papers, get this into family
court, and figure out what the new
normal is going to be."
>> Right?
>> I do my due diligence on him and and the
nature of the divorce and all that to
make sure that there's that she wasn't
running away from an abusive situation
or accusations. It does not appear to be
the case. Okay? And so my job is to find
this mother and this child. And so I
begin working some sources I have and I
find out that the kid is enrolled in
school in this city in Florida. And um
and it's a Catholic school. Okay. And so
and so I know where the kid goes to
school. I have no idea where the mom is
laying her head. I don't have access to
the school records to that extent. So
let's start there. What would you do,
Matthew Cox? Um, I mean, you know, I was
going to say obviously just follow the
kid home, but [laughter]
these kids, they all look the same. I
would wonder how you could even pick him
out, right? That's that's a problem
right there. Do you How do you pick this
kid out?
>> Yeah, he was a little kid. Um, you know,
they say kindergarten, first grade. So,
the idea that he's going to be like
>> Yeah. I'm saying it's that's not a huge
group of kids, right? But one one
information that I did have is, you
know, through my databases and that I
subscribe to and pay a small fortune
for, I'm able to determine what car she
has.
>> Oh, okay.
>> I'm able to determine what the license
plates those cars are.
>> Oh, well, the other thing is too, you
could I mean, there's there's skip
tracing, right? Like she's got to have
something in her name. She had to change
her credit cards or something. You would
think Lexus, Nexus, or one of those
services would give her give you an
address. So, I do that and and those
places are great if you change your bank
account, you change your driver's
license, you change your car
registration, you change your insurance,
you get utilities, but if you're couch
surfing with somebody, um there's no
database out there.
>> She had changed her credit cards and her
bank account. She had done anything
really.
Yeah. Or she was testing the waters with
this new guy to see if he's really her
soulmate.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh [snorts] is it okay if I bring my
seven-year-old kid with me? Type of
thing. So you So you got to hang out
there till she picks them up, right?
>> Bingo. Exactly. That's what Matt Cox
would do and that's what Tom Simon did.
And so so it had been a while since I
had done a pickup at a Catholic school
for a child. And so I show up. So the
school ends at . I show up there at
at the Catholic school, go into the
parking lot, back my car in. I got a big
SUV with the darkest tinted windows
you've ever seen. Even this even this
the the windshield. you cannot see me in
my work car. And um and I back in and I
thought, "This is going to be easy. I'll
wait till I'll watch the cars come in
and I'll look I'll see the license plate
of the Target's car. I'll uh picking up
the kid. I'll tail them. Tail them back
to Lover Boy's house. Note the address.
Bing, bang, boom, I get paid." And so it
had been so long since I had done a
Catholic school pickup that I forgot
about the Catholic school pickup vortex.
>> It is not It It's not as simple as that.
What happens is the cars pull into the
parking lot. The parents start lining
up. The cars pull into this parking lot
that does this serpentine kind of around
the parking lot and around the school
until you get to the front of the
school. And then they like, you know,
take a look at the yellow sheet on your
windshield that says like, you know,
Johnny Apple Seed grade one. And they
take Johnny Apples Seed grade one. They
load him into the car and then the car
drives away, right? And so and and so I
am backed into the parking lot in a
parking space and by about in the
afternoon there's 500 cars kind of like
serpentining through the parking lot
just kind of waiting there stopped and
I'm trapped in. There's no way I'm
getting out because I backed in. They
don't they think I'm an empty car and uh
and if I wanted to pull out even if I
saw her I don't know how I'm going to
kind of merge in with the rest of these
parents' cars who just want to pick up
their kids and move on with their day
and get over to T-ball practice. And so
I'm like, "This is I've made a terrible
mistake here." As opposed to like like
setting up across the street or
something like that from the school and
trying to pick her up as she comes out
of the parking lot. I thought I'd be
cute and get a really close view. And so
um so I start to kind of panic. I'm not
seeing her car there. And so I thought,
"Okay, well this is um this isn't
working. I I want to walk I wanted to
walk kind of around I want to get out of
my car." I get out of my car and I start
walking around the the perimeter of the
building on the public sidewalk kind of
taking a look at all the vehicles in
line to see if I can even see her
vehicle there,
>> right?
>> And so I get out and start walking um
and all around the school are these
volunt this Catholic school, right?
These volunteer dads
>> wearing these um wearing the uh the kind
of yellow um like kind of crossing
guard, you know, shiny outfits and all
that. And they're the ones who are like
kind of like directing traffic and all
that. And these they know each other.
They're just volunteer Catholic school
dads. Good good people.
>> And uh and I'm like w and I'm like
walking along the perimeter. I'm this
lone dude, not dressed particularly
well, walking on the sidewalk around the
perimeter of the school, kind of looking
around like I'm some kind of crepo. And
uh and and one of the dads immediately
sees me. He goes, "Hey, hey, you you can
I help you?" And I go I go, "I'm sorry."
I walk up to him. He goes, he goes, he
goes, "I bet you're looking for the
soccer game." And I go, I am looking for
soccer. Matter of fact, I am looking for
the soccer game. And he goes, "This
happens all the time. The soccer field's
around back." And he goes, "So, you just
got to drive around the back of the
school." And I go, "Oh, okay. Well,
listen. Thanks, brother. I appreciate
it." And uh and so I go back to my car,
you know, I go back onto the campus and
get in my car. And by this point, some
teacher that's out there also sort of
directing traffic and all that sees me
get into my car and uh and she comes
over, knocks on my window,
window goes down. She goes, "Can I help
you, sir?" "Scc game." I go, "Yeah." I
go, "I'm looking for the soccer game."
I'm all turned around. And she goes,
"Oh, it's around at the back of the
building." She goes, "Here's what I'll
do. I'll stop the traffic here. You just
merge in with the parents and as they
kind of serpentine around the parking
lot to pick up their kids, as soon as
you get to the front, then you can drive
around and you just drive around to the
back of the building to the parking
lot." And I go, "Thank you so much. I'm
all turned around." And so she does. She
like stops traffic. Nice lady, good
teacher. Um I merge in. So now I'm in
line with the parents. I have no idea
where my target is. I'm in line with the
parents and we drive around. We get to
the front of the school and everyone
stops to get their kids loaded in. I'm
stopped there and then these two Indian
children hop in the back of my Prius.
Not [laughter] my Lexus.
>> Your Lexus. They I turn around. I go,
"Get out of my car. I'm not your dad."
And the kids are like [laughter] they
get out of the car.
>> As soon as I close the door, I hit the
lock button. Turn around. [laughter]
trying to get out of the back.
>> Yeah. And so, uh,
>> so I brought the kids home. We're cool
now. [laughter]
>> I got him in the basement.
>> Yeah.
>> They're doing their coding.
>> I'm assuming they had they had parents
who had a big Lexus SUV like mine with
darken windows, I guess. And um and so I
I I allow the kids to leave and and I
pull out of the parking lot. I pull
across the street um where I should have
done to begin with. I finally find her
vehicle coming through. I tail her back
to the house. I write the address down.
I do a background check on the house. I
provide his divorce attorney everything
he needs.
>> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Slow down.
Slow down one more time. Do it again.
>> Mission accomplished. And after I
>> You do find her.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I find her. I find her when
once I'm across the street in a parking
lot watching the cars exit, which is
what I should have done to begin with,
>> right?
>> I'm a [ __ ] I decided I get get cute
and set up my post inside on campus,
which I never should have done, right?
>> Find the lady, follow her home, totally
no drama. um give the address of the new
h run the address on the new house
here's the guy she's living with he's
like yeah Gary I knew his name was Gary
or whatever and that's it and then then
they whatever happens happens um but um
you know they serve her they end up I
don't I I don't have a lot of followup
with a client at that point
>> but um but it that was one of the last
times I decided I was going to do a
surveillance I just don't like doing
surveillances um I mean I was thinking
like the guys that have to watch
somebody you know come in and out of
their house and figure out their routine
or whatever.
>> I was thinking now you can get these um
uh these surveillance cameras,
>> trail cams.
>> Yeah. That you can put up and they will
>> and you can program it what to look for.
You can actually give it a
>> and it will it so now it will record you
know
>> you know man walking out of the house
man walking into the house man walking
whatever and then as soon as that that
sees this person come out out of the
house it will record it and send it to
you.
>> Yeah.
>> Or it also will describe to you what's
happening.
>> Mhm.
>> Because on
our cameras that Jess has set up, she'll
put it on and it'll say, you know, dog
playing with ball, dog walking through
living room. Yeah.
>> Dog or it'll say, you know, two people
enter the house and you realize like
that, you know, somebody came, you know,
two people came over and they walk two
people walk into kitchen two and it
describes what's happening. It's insane.
>> That's nice. That's good. I uh now when
I get calls for surveillances and it
happens, I have a uh an acquaintance
who's a private investigator who's
former CIA,
>> right? and uh in in in Jacksonville
where I live and he um he went through
like this terrible divorce, has like no
money and so he does surveillance work
pretty cheap and he likes it and uh and
so he sends me financial cases if
somebody has like a fraud case or needs
some like kind of
>> you know big complex financial crime
investigation and I send him my pitily
surveillances. Nice. And I have another
woman who does a surveillance and she's
super cheap. She's like the teeu of uh
and she's great very good surveillance
um PI. I tell her, I go, "Listen, I'm
gonna send you all these clients, and
here's what I want you to do. Anytime
you book a client, I want you to send me
20 bucks, right?
>> And I don't want a percentage of what
you make. I just want $20." And uh and
and my wife is like, "Why are you taking
$20 from this woman?" I go, "Because I
want to I want to keep her honest and
it's going to motivate me to do it. And
if I get 20 bucks, I'll go I'll take you
out to lunch." Right?
>> And uh and I go, "She's making a fortune
from me because I have I'm high-profile
and she's not. She's getting tons of
work. And every now and then I I get
this Venmo for $20 just falling in my
lap. It's like finding $20 in your
pocket.
>> All right, we're good. All right, are we
good?
>> Yeah, I'm sorry. Let's uh let's do the
game show. Uh I have 10 questions like
we talked about and I'm going to tell
you the story and your job, Matt Cox, is
to guess the sentence.
>> Nice.
>> Capich? All right. Our first story
involves a woman by the name of Suliana
Caldwell. But before we get into what
Suliana did, uh you are an artist and
I'm curious. I like checking in on you
every now and then. How is your painting
and art career going?
>> Uh, well, I'm really just painting to
get a stockpile together and maybe
someday I'll do a some kind of a gallery
showing or something, but so it's going
good because I'm not I I was there was a
time I was knocking out like one a week
for probably four or five weeks and now
I'm down to one a month.
>> Okay. is how long if you how long how
many hours does one of your paint your
paintings are amazing by the way and
people should go to Etsy and type in
>> it's you know it's funny the new stuff I
don't even think I have on there but
yeah it's Etsy
>> yeah yeah I'm I'm a huge fan of what you
do I mean it's very kind of Andy Warhol
like and sort of pop cultury and I
>> it's definitely pop art
>> yeah I love it and uh and so you're you
want to do a gallery show
>> yeah at some point I actually have one
right now I'm that I like Jess doesn't
like it and it's it's a woman in like a
business suit and but her head is a TV
>> and then she's got two people behind her
and their heads are TV cuz it's very it
makes me think of YouTube.
>> Like I actually thought about I'm
thinking about putting YouTube I but
it's too overt to put YouTube on the
screen but anyway I don't I like it.
Jess doesn't but I just started painting
it. That's good. Right. Um here's an
idea not and you should do this yourself
but if you want me involved I'd be happy
to do the gallery show but also let's
advertise it as a meet and greet.
>> Yeah. and and and you know and if this
show takes off uh I would love to be
there for it and but but otherwise just
a meet and greet for Matt Cox because
you have a lot of fans.
>> I'll figure I figure in about a year I
probably have maybe 20 to 30 if I you
had 20 to 30 paintings.
>> Yeah.
>> I could I could go rent some place and
>> rent a studio. You advertise it. Yeah.
You'd have people show up.
>> Yeah, probably would. The problem is is
that for it to be worth it like you got
to sell the paintings for two, three
grand. And you were I think you were ask
how long does it take? have 20 to 40
hours into each painting.
>> Okay.
>> But I that's the whole thing. I'll turn
on like a true crime podcast
>> or or like a documentary while I'm
painting. So it's kind of like I'm
knocking I have to watch the like for
the murder men. I have to watch these
documentaries.
>> Yeah.
>> Which I like anyway, but so I'm watching
them anyway, but I'm not It's two birds
in one stone. So I don't mind doing it.
I like it.
>> Is And is are you on like autopilot or
does it require just an intense amount
of concentration?
>> I'm kind of on autopilot. Like I'm not
doing it. I'm not painting uh these are
not oil paintings. These are acrylics.
>> Uh in order to paint like a a portrait,
>> you know, you need you need a a full set
of oils and I'm not doing. First of all,
they stink. They take forever to dry.
They're amazing. I mean, I could do you
people would immediately say that's Tom.
>> But [snorts] I I I just go with the
acrylics. They're they're easy clean up.
They dry right away. You can knock out
the paintings quick. And I'm not looking
for perfection here. Do you find and
again sorry to belabor this but I am in
truly interesting because I have no
talent in this regard. Um you've written
books does what what requires more
concentration a book or a painting?
>> Oh book because the [clears throat]
paintings I'm just kind of on autopilot
multiple.
>> You can't write a book while there's a
true crime podcast.
>> I can't I can't write if anything is
happening. I mean it has to be quiet
like people like oh they can listen
these people that can like listen to
music and write or read or watch TV and
do the like I can't do if
>> if I'm talking to you and Kobe starts
talking
>> everything you say and he says becomes
you know Charlie Brown's teacher
and it happens [snorts] Jess and I all
the time I'm watching a real and she
says something I have to stop I go what
and she's like I just said I'm like okay
well I was watching this she's like she
doesn't understand that you. The only
reason I even know you said something
>> is because I stopped being able to pay
attention to this. They just all of a
sudden I'm listening allah what what I
realize she's talking to me and both of
them completely went blank and so I had
to stop and go what what' you say? She's
like like yeah I know your life is so
horrible. Um so [laughter]
>> I it's like I'm I'm now used to being
just a constant disappointment. Were you
able to do any were you able to do any
art or sketching in prison? I know you
spent a lot of time in prison writing,
but did you was there did were there
facilities for that?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Initially I thought I
initially I was planning on doing that
>> like John Wayne Gayy.
>> Yeah, exactly. I was going to do it. I
figured, hey, when I get out of here,
I'll have this whole group of stuff, but
what I realized also very quickly is
that the painting they they have a they
only allow you to make certain sizes.
Yeah.
>> And so I'd have a ton of little tiny
paintings,
>> right?
>> And I I don't paint little. My my
paintings are 5 foot x 4 foot, 3 foot by
6 foot, you know, so they're large.
>> And I was like, you know, and and and
also where who's storing these things?
>> That's my thing. You can transfer from
prison to prison. Are they going to like
pack up your stuff and ship it out for
you?
>> Right. And I could do this anywhere.
Well, I need to do something that is
important to do or something I can do
here, something that makes this
experience unique and amazing. Yeah.
>> And I thought, I can paint. I can retire
and paint.
>> Sure.
>> I can't do this. I don't have access to
these guys outside. So, I thought this
is what the way to go.
>> Yeah. Smart, man. I admire you. I I like
I said, uh I'm working on my first book
right now and when I finish it, I'm
going to read another you. [laughter]
All right. City of Fresno has an arts
council and they supply that arts
council with millions of dollars of
voter approved funds intended to support
the arts and cultural programs as well
as parks and trails and stuff like that.
Um, we got a woman named Suliana
Caldwell and she's the operations
manager for the Fresno Arts Council in
California. And so she was the boss. She
managed the bank accounts, the payroll,
the grants, the donations, general
finances. She was the person who was in
charge of all of the business behind the
arts because artists aren't always great
with business, but she was the one who
was taking care of all the money. And
this is state money. Some of it maybe
even be federal money through grants and
stuff like that. But and so it was too
much control left in the hands of one
person, right? She had access to the
money. She had access to the grants. She
had access to the bank accounts, the
accounting records, etc. So, what she
started doing, she started making
unauthorized transfers from the Arts
Council bank accounts into her own bank
accounts. Matt Cox, I know you find this
shocking.
>> Um, she used her personal PayPal as part
of the pipeline to make this happen.
>> Put a lot of thought into this, did she?
>> Yeah, [laughter] I know. For all the
trouble she went to, she [snorts] made
more than 300 unauthorized transfers
over the life of the scheme.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um, she was taking about $80,000
per month. Yeah. [snorts] So, I mean,
Fresno took their arts council seriously
as far as the amount of funding, but
they weren't getting a whole lot of art
from it,
>> right?
>> Okay. She was able to conceal the her
theft by falsifying financial reports um
that she would give to the executive
director, her boss, um and to the
government officials that she worked
for. And um she used to report bank
balances on her like monthly reports
that just weren't there. She was
falsifying the bank balances in the
reports that she was creating. Where was
this money going, Mad Cox? What's your
guess? What What's she spending this
money on?
>> I mean,
is this an older broad?
>> Uh, sadly, I normally have their age. I
don't. Let's
>> lipo suction and lipo suction and nails.
>> No, this is Fresno. They're not doing
lipo suction. Fresno. [laughter]
>> This isn't This isn't Santa Monica.
>> I mean, are are these vacations or the
Okay, vacations.
>> It was really important to her to have
VIP status at the casinos. Oh,
gambling. Horrible.
>> It's so interesting that these con
artists that we talk about on the show
who are stealing money and gambling it
away. They are obsessed with the idea of
being VIPs. Like, I'm going to steal
$80,000 a month to go gambling, but I
want that hotel room comped. If I could
only get that free buffet. So, that was
her thing. And so, I mean, she was
transferring so much money. Uh when on a
single day in 2024, she transferred
$58,000 out of there and she's just
taken these vacations and going to the
casinos. The scheme finally blows up in
a very old-fashioned way. One of the
arts council checks bounced, which
shouldn't be happening with with an arts
council that is funded this well by the
city of Fresno.
>> Um and then everything just begins
unraveling. Why is this bouncing? what
we're supposed I looked at the the what
you sent us in the monthly statements.
It said our our balance is like $700,000
in the account. Um and so it all
unravels from there. The FBI gets called
in. The Fres FBI gets called in to add
some financial expertise and to make it
federal. The Fresno Police Department
did a lot of the heavy lifting in this
case. So, shout out to them.
>> By the time it's all quantified, she's
on the hook for $1.8 million.
I feel like I can see the auditor there
going over the thing and she's standing
in the corner of the room and slowly
starts to back out of [laughter] the
room.
>> Yeah, exactly. This explains this.
>> Getting back to the art, this explains
the distinctive lack of murals in
Fresno. [laughter]
>> Fresno's nice. It could use more murals.
>> There's a There are, but they're like
stick figures that she got out there on
the weekend.
>> You get what you pay for. Yeah, exactly.
So, um, she pleads guilty. And, uh,
what's the judge going to give an arts
administrator whose bookkeeping financed
a casino loyalty program?
[sighs and gasps]
[laughter] No criminal history that I
know of.
>> $1.8
million over about looks like about a
three-year period.
>> Suliana.
>> Fresno.
>> What?
>> Fresno.
>> Fresno. Oh,
>> yeah.
>> Okay. What's Fresno? Is that San
Francisco? Is it near San Franc? It's in
California, right?
>> Yeah. I just had a case in Fresno. Um,
not a fan.
>> No. Is it close?
>> I don't want our I don't want our
numbers to tank, but um I mean
Fresno Bakersfield.
>> I just kept walking around thinking
where are the where are the murals?
[laughter]
>> It's just a bunch of gang graffiti.
>> Um let's see.
It's still California. Like, I'll bet
it's low. I'll bet it's I wonder if she
got probation. We should agree that we
don't do anything with probation. We
should agree to that, by the way, cuz
I'm always expecting.
>> Yeah, it's that would be zero.
>> Yeah. Um,
they're not going to give her a bunch.
Like I I'll bet you less. I'm See, I
can't even say. See, if we were the
oneear rule,
>> I'd say 12 months cuz then I'd cover me.
>> That's because that's you're playing the
game instead of actually guessing. I
want you to actually make an educated
guess about what you think the sentence
is and not try to be clever and cute.
Matt Cox,
>> um, God, that's hor 18 months.
>> 18 months in prison. Yes. Year and a
half.
>> For how much money?
>> It's, you know, I
>> $1.8 million. Cole, are you listening to
this guy?
>> I just feel like it's California and I I
feel like they're light on crime,
especially [clears throat] a financial
crime.
>> You always say that and what you're not
understanding is that this is the
federal court system. So the the the
judges are either appointed by a
Republican president or a Democratic
president. It's one or the other.
>> Okay.
>> And so I you know, is it hard to find a
hang-in Republican judge if that's the
if you if your belief and you may be
right that Republican judges are going
to be harsher sentencers, which I don't
know that that's necessarily true, but I
suspect that's the stereotype.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I mean, we we have had
President Trump and President Bush in
our lifetimes um appointing a lot of
judges. And so I don't know that you can
necessarily say that in the federal
system if we're talking about like you
know the local judge in Berkeley who got
arrested in his Birkenstocks or
whatever. That's a different thing. But
we're talking the federal system.
>> I mean do you think you really think an
Alabama judge appointed by President
Trump has a different mindset than a a
San Francisco federal judge appointed by
President Trump?
>> I do. And I also think that the every
district is is different, right? So you
have different districts and some
districts will say for for instance,
let's say cooperation.
>> Mhm.
>> In some districts you can actually file
paperwork. You can actually file like a
um a a motion for specific performance
and force the government to give you a
reduction. Like if you've done something
>> you're talking about the appellet courts
though that
>> No, no. I'm talk the direct I'm talking
about the uh district. You can actually
say, "Hey, they told me this. I did
this." And the government saying, "Well,
yeah, but it wasn't good enough. We
don't we don't think it reaches the
level of reducing a sentence." And you
can file a a motion for specific
performance. Um, and and that they the
judge will say, "Look, I'm ordering you
to I think it does meet the the the the
minimum, and you need to we you need to
put in a motion to reduce his sentence."
In certain districts, you can do that.
>> That's still going to land on a desk
that was either appointed by a
conservative or a liberal,
>> right? But I'm saying those those those
are those that that case law is is
directly related to the judges in that
district, right? Like they kind of craft
it. So sometimes you go somewhere and
you say, "Hey,
>> you know, for let's say, you know, ICE,
you'll get they're giving out insane
sentences in another district across the
country. There's not that bad." Like
they they they kind of look, oh, it's
kind of like it's not like okay, no, it
is, you know, and they not how we feel.
like sometimes, hey, marijuana they
don't really care about here. Here they
think it's a, you know, it's practically
a death sentence. So,
>> so I [clears throat] I think it does.
I'm not saying it's that drastic. It's
subtle, but I think 18 I I see
California as being light light on
crime. She goes in and cries and says,
"I have a gambling problem." And they
say, they say, "Well, you know, 18
months and two years probation and you
have to pay it back and
>> she doesn't have a criminal record." And
she's like, you know, I'm so sorry and
it just slipped up on me. 18 months.
>> Okay. 18 months. Final answer.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. The correct answer is 33 months.
>> 33 months. That's a Florida sentence
[laughter]
>> from a very conservative hanging judge
in
>> 36 months is a lot for 18 months. 33.
Sorry. 33 is a lot for uh for that. Like
I said, the judge liked the arts.
>> He's probably going to be at your own
gallery opening.
>> Yeah. I told you I knew I I was kind of
based it on this guy Shorter who I think
got four years for like $3.5 million and
he had a criminal record.
>> Right.
>> Right. This is a good segue because
we're talking about the courts and how
the courts work and this is a story
about the courts, the federal courts
itself and a fraud that took place
within the that system. Um, actually,
I'm sorry, it takes place in a county
court, but St. But the case was charged
federally. We talk a lot about and we
discussed it briefly about the idea of
segregation of duties and how important
it is to have somebody different who is
maintaining the bank account records and
and who's different than the person who
has the assets. But that gets blown up
in the world of finance and accounting
when there is collusion among multiple
people working together. Right? If you
and I are both working for the same
company and we say, "Let's put our heads
together here in the accounting
department and start stealing, we can
pretty much override most internal
controls."
>> Yeah. It's just it just has to be
kismmet that you find two people so
morally bankrupt that they're willing to
kind of go into business with each other
at the same company.
>> And so that's what this story is about,
collusion. And so therefore, it's a
twofur. We have two different defendants
and you'll have to guess both of their
sentences. Okay.
>> Okay. [clears throat]
>> All right. this um [laughter]
one of our people and and Kobe resist
the temptation to use this on the
thumbnail is named Julia Roberts.
>> Nice.
>> But it's not that Julia Roberts. Let's
make that clear. And um she worked with
a woman named Vicky Robinson and they
were in the accounting office at the
Wendote Wandot Wy dottte county District
Court in Kansas. Okay, I'm sure they'll
correct me on how to pronounce that in
the comments. Their job was to handle
the public money and they decided to
handle some of that money right into
their own pockets. Okay. [snorts] Julia,
and this is important, was the
accounting supervisor.
Vicki was her subordinate.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. Julia Roberts is the boss. Vicki
is underneath her. And they they put
their heads together one time, probably
over lunch in the office when they're
laughing about how underappreciated they
are by the county, and decide that
they're going to start stealing money.
uh people come in and uh sometimes pay
their fines or court costs in cash. That
cash went um you know right into their
pockets, but then they would do is they
would generate checks and forge the
clerk of court signature on those checks
to make the accounting system look
right. They're basically stealing money
from this bucket of money to cover up
the money here from the cash they're
saying, making sure everything balances.
the memo lines on these checks that
they're forging um were made to look
like legitimate judgment dispersements
in civil cases. Like if I lose a jury
trial to you, it's not like you just
hand me a sack of cash. It often flows
through the clerk of courts, right?
>> Um they steal about $980,000 that way.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Um and you know what made this
case pop was casino records. Once the
FBI started investigating this during
the stealing years, Julia had more than
a million dollars in currency
transactions at a casino in one year and
then the next year she had 480,000. Next
year she had 251,000 and then she
retires and then casino transactions
dropped to about 30,000. So Julie is the
real brains behind this operation who's
spending money like a drunken sailor at
the casino there in Kansas. But Vicki is
along for the ride.
>> Okay. The FBI interviews Vicki first
because they see her as the weak link in
the chain.
>> Yeah.
>> And she gives it up. I confess Julia
said it was okay. It was all Julia's
idea. Julia showed me how to do it.
>> Um Julia then tells agents that. And
then they go to Julia and Julia also
confesses. I said, "Okay, it was my idea
and I did come up with a plan on how to
do this with the checks and the covering
and the cash." Um and uh and then but
she said, "Vicki and I split the cash.
So, don't don't let Vicki tell you that
she's not in this thing as a partner.
Um, both of these women plead guilty to
wire fraud conspiracy, meaning that they
which is accurate, they formed a
conspiracy to commit wire fraud.
>> And so, they're both jointly responsible
for the $980,000.
It's not a situation, Matt Cox, where
the FBI or the courts need to establish
how much Julia got and how much Vicki
got. They're a team. They're in this for
the whole enchilada. You get that? Get
it? Okay, good. So, we got a two-part
guest here. Supervisor Julia Roberts,
Pretty Woman.
>> Mhm.
>> And her um her subordinate Vicky
Robinson. How much time they going to
get?
>> 980 grand.
>> Not a lot.
>> I mean, it went on for a while, though.
Look like three or four years.
>> Maybe.
>> I don't know. You're saying one is more
culpable than the other. I'm saying
one's a supervisor and they both their
stories are aligned that it was Julia's
idea. Vicki helped implement it and
enjoyed the proceeds. But
>> they couldn't they couldn't have done it
without each other.
>> Maybe uh 6 and 12 months. Uh 6 months
for Vicki,
12 months for uh Julia.
>> Did you miss the part where this was
$980,000?
>> Yeah. I don't think it's a I don't think
it's 900,000. I mean, what do you mean?
It's 900,000. I mean, it's
>> 980,000. You know what? That's 20,000
less than a [laughter] million
for a guy who has a million followers on
your other YouTube.
>> 1.2 1.2. Uh
>> um
>> what are the thresholds for the
financial?
>> Oh, it's like Yeah, it's like 50,000 and
then like three like 300 and then like a
million and then like, you know, but
you're also missing the intangibles here
that this is also a fraud against the
courts. um you know in local court in
Kansas and there's a federal judge who
spent his entire life in the federal
court system who might find this
behavior offensive [gasps and sighs]
>> 12 months and 18
>> I'm not trying to talk you into raising
I'm trying to talk you into thinking
>> I am thinking it's $900,000 I know guys
that have stole half a million dollars
and and and ended up getting like three
months you know so I'm saying
>> follow your heart don't listen to me
>> okay 12 to 18 months 12 to 18 months
>> okay so 18 months for the boss cost 12
months for the subordinate.
>> Julia is 18 12 for Vicki.
>> All right, final answer.
>> Yes.
>> Okay, let's start with Julia. Julia got
41 months.
>> [ __ ] A. Are you serious? Yes. That's
ridiculous. She's the supervisor at the
court's office. Okay. Hers and And you
said 18 for for Vicki?
>> Yeah. Vicki got 27 months.
>> Jeez. I don't think 75% of 27 months.
Uh,
>> no.
That's ridiculous.
>> That's a miss, right?
>> Yes. That is ridiculous.
>> Well, you could all these broads getting
usually they walk a skate, you know,
there was no man to point it at. There
was a guy involved in that. They'd all
said, "Oh, it was Jimmy." There's no
justice in this world.
>> We've never This is probably I don't
know. We've done 30 episodes of this
thing by now in from the old show and
then the new show.
>> I can see you you're really excited
about it. See that? That's 30 episodes.
>> No, I am excited. I'm so thrilled to be
here and I'm thrilled you're watching.
Like and subscribe. Um, but we've never
had a we so we've done a lot of these,
you know, we've done a lot of
embezzlement cases, Ponzi schemes, stuff
like that. You know, we we I tend to,
you are both interested in white color
crime and scam, so we tend to lean in
that direction, but we do other types of
cases as well. Um and uh we haven't done
a case involving export controls u which
is a really whole and it's nothing I'm
an expert of myself but the idea that
that there are countries out there that
we have um embargos on like you cannot
like decide you're going to start
sending guns or ammunition to Russia for
example or Iran and um but there's
people out there who go to great lengths
to um to subvert that and uh and send
weapons to places that the US government
has decided that we're not sending
weapons
is I have not seen that movie War Dogs,
but I know you had a hand in kind of
writing some of the story of one of the
guys who was involved in that. Is that
kind of what they were doing or
>> Yeah, it's ex it's exactly Well,
I don't think that they had did anything
wrong to be honest with you. But it it
it is what they it was one of the it was
basically Yeah. like the charge that
they were charged with it because
because there's an embargo against chi
Chinese munitions and weapons um because
of as a result of Tianaan Square. Okay.
Uh, and so they were selling Chinese
ammunition to the Afghan troops or
Afghan security forces, but that m those
munitions were made and gifted to the
country of
[ __ ] I don't remember. Was it Romania?
Anyway, before the embargo. So,
actually, they're okay.
>> Okay. But they but because they
relabeled it, they created a kind of
like a conspiracy and they that's what
they kind of charged with. But but it's
it's funny because
>> we're talking about your role. You did
time with one of these guys.
>> I did time with Efron Devoli, the guy
played by Jonah Hill, and I wrote his
memoir.
>> Okay. So ghost wrote it.
>> Yes.
>> Well, no, no, my name's on it. It's E
from Devoli and Matthew Cox. But you
know what's funny about it is um the
>> what it was it's really just a form you
fill out.
>> Yeah. Like you fill out a form cuz
they're getting the stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> They're getting Chinese munitions and
they're taking in millions of rounds.
Millions.
>> And they know it says Chinese right on
it. But they they get the form and it
says, "Oh, it's coming from is it
Romania
or or Albania?" I think it was Albania.
So it's like coming from Albania and it
says where was it made? And it's like
Albania. Okay. Well, it's not made in
Albania. Every round has a Chinese
little bucket logo. It's from China. But
they removed the boxes that had the
thing. But that's it. It's really just a
form you're filling out. Now, I'm sure
if you're stopped and somebody really
scrutinizes it, then they would notice.
And now it's pretty clear, right?
>> But the military wasn't scrutinizing.
They just wanted the rounds,
>> right?
>> So, I wonder how And did you ever see
the movie um
>> uh God of War? Lord, Lord of War.
>> God of War or Lord Lord of War. Oh,
because it was like Warlord. Yeah.
Warlord War. Yeah, that was a good
movie. Cage.
>> Yeah, it was amazing. But you saw the
kinds of stuff that he was doing and
that's the kind of stuff that they do to
try and get around these embargos,
right? To kind of circumvent the um it I
think those are I think that's uh it's
[clears throat] tough to kind of uh
enforce those things. You really do need
these these agents to go out there and
really spot check stuff to try and catch
people.
>> Yeah. And the US Department of Commerce
actually spends a lot of time trying to
enforce that stuff.
>> Can you imagine how much stuff is
shipped around the world? Like how are
you going to how do you police that?
[clears throat]
>> It's tough. and we're gonna put an
embargo on you. Like, well, you're not
closing a door. Yeah. You're just having
people change forms. That's not gonna do
that much.
>> Exactly. Well, that's what this kind of
case is about. So, let me tell you about
this one. Our our defendant is Manfred
Gruber.
>> I feel like he's German.
>> 61-year-old Italian
>> Italian
>> arms arms industry executive. He was the
sales director of a large firearms and
ammunition distributor.
>> Okay. His company could legally buy
Americanmade ammunition and import it
into Italy. You're allowed to do that.
Yeah,
>> we have no problem with Italy. We get
along with them. You ever been to Olive
Garden? It's fantastic.
>> It's amazing.
>> Those bread sticks.
>> The um the export licenses come with an
important condition, though. The that
piece of paper that you were talking
about, the ammunition had to stay in
Italy unless the company his his company
in Italy obtained additional US
permission. Okay. Like you can't just
use Italy as a way station or
>> which is what they do all the time,
right?
>> I get it. I get it. So Manfred becomes
part of this procurement network
secretly supplying Russia in their war
against Ukraine.
>> Right.
>> Okay. He uses the company in Italy to
move $540,000
worth of American ammunition to
Kyrgyzstan
and that ammunition then gets reexported
to Russia. Exactly what you're saying.
It's kind of a shell game. The paper
trail was wonderfully direct in this
investigation that the FBI did with the
US Department of Commerce in the
investigators recovered a contract from
the Kyrgyzstan arms dealers phone
showing the deal with the Russian
company. Like the paper trail is just
perfect with all these contracts because
everybody's
>> doing business. That's what you do when
you do business. Um and then but then
they the FBI finds these encrypted
messages uh when they started doing some
searches and um Manfred Gruber and a
co-conspirator discussing splitting up a
shipment of 100,000 bullets. According
to prosecutors, Manford explained that
the shipment needed to be divided so it
would go unnoticed by the FBI. You
really love to see that when you're
actually looking for [laughter] evidence
in a case. Um and so um Manfred Gruber
uh is charged in this case with um
conspiracy to commit export control
violations,
but right before the trial um is about
to happen, he pleads guilty.
>> Okay. And so what we're talking about
here is $540,000 worth of American
ammunition, call it a 100,000 bullets,
uh, going to the Russians so the
Russians can kill Ukrainians in their
war on the ground there, violating
American export control rules that were
very specific and black and white. How
much time do you think the judge in New
York gave Manfred Gruber?
>> That name gets you an extra year. Oh, a
Banford Gruber.
>> Very foolish scheme.
>> This guy's Yeah, this guy. That's not
>> I am Italian.
>> That's not an Italian. [laughter]
>> Would you like to have some lasagna?
>> Need lines of five. Yeah.
>> Um,
yeah. I'm going to say 60 months.
>> 60 months.
>> Yeah. 100,000 bullets. We're not talking
that much. $540,000
worth of stuff.
You're killing Ukrainians.
I
>> I'm not in favor of killing Ukrainians.
>> 36 months.
>> Again, I'm not telling you what to say.
I'm just want I I
>> I can't stand you. [laughter]
>> Really?
>> I I don't I just want you to think it
through. I feel like you're kind of
flying from the hip here. I am flying to
because I don't have a ton of experience
and I know
>> they only wrote a book about the time.
>> Okay, but those guys got keep in mind
they were also doing this for the
federal government and they had a ton
way.
>> How much time did your guy get? You're
the Jonah Hill guy.
>> Um the Jonah Hill guy got he got a first
of all he was only going to get he was
only going to get four years. Okay.
>> But he violated the his uh he was out on
um pre-trial uh on pre-trial and so he
violated it. So he ended up with six
years. But the point is, he was going to
get four. And to be honest with you, he
was really only going to get uh if he
had just gone in and plead guilty when
he [clears throat] first got grabbed.
>> How much was he going to get?
>> 18 months, I think, home home
confinement with that ankle monitor
because that's what the other two guys
got.
>> All right. Well, so you have something
that you know about?
>> I do. And it was a lot more. And it and
it was more. Um
>> Well, I don't know if it was more, but I
I it was because they didn't get charged
with a ton. Um
>> you're the expert at this table about
this stuff. wrote a book about it. So,
how much time you going to give Manfred
group?
>> I think 36 months.
>> 36 months. 3 years.
>> Yeah. I think I think that they were
probably sending sending a message and
they probably wanted to hammer him and
he'd probably been locked up for 12
months by the time his trial happened or
18. And he thought, "Fuck it. I'll be
out of here another year, but if I lose,
I could get 10 years or something." So,
let's say 3 years.
>> Three years. Final answer.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. The correct answer is 18 months in
prison.
>> Come on.
>> I tried. You actually when you were
telling the story, you talked about your
friend who got who was going to get 18
months for that. And I thought you were
going to take your own bait. I can lead
a horse to water, but I can't make him
drink. Matt Cox, hey,
>> I'm not doing well, Colobby. What am I
at?
>> Yeah. Where are we at?
>> Over four.
>> Four. Wow. So,
>> do you have to use the bathroom?
[laughter]
>> Do you need to use the bathroom?
>> No. Do you? We're over four. Do you need
to use [laughter]
>> That's funny. For those of you just
joining us for the first time, Matthew
Cox has a history. Do [laughter] not
>> doing really well after I go to the
bathroom and leave the questions and
answers here on the table unguarded
because I I trust my friend. Right.
>> Untrue.
>> It's the mental reset.
>> No, [laughter] that's
>> Yeah. Right. Something about me having
an empty bladder really helps his
scores. Yeah.
>> All right. So, the next story um
involves a little bit of not a little
bit quite a bit of sexual malfeasants.
So, if you're in the car with your kids,
it's not super crazy graphic. I know
children were harmed, but bad things
happen in here and it's a sex crime. And
so I just want to warn the audience
because we don't want this to be a
surprise party for you if you're sitting
around with your children watching this
episode. Um
I hope I'm not bringing up uh I think
you've talked about this stuff. Um your
wife Jess, incredible woman, huge fan.
Um she did some time in female prison,
right?
>> Yes.
Did um does she ever describe guards
involved in kind of sexual malfeasants
with the female inmates? Is that a
thing?
>> Abs. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Okay. Is it is it coercive and for I
know okay I know that guards under no
circumstances are allowed to be engaged
sexually with inmates uh because the
power dynamic means that there's
inherent coercion. Yes. But I want to
but I'm asking you is was the inherent
coercion a that that Jess describes in
there sort of in that area or where it's
hey you're just not allowed to do that
or was were the guards really kind of
pressuring the women and doing bad
things to them against the women's will
>> um in the the cases that she knows of
that where she was there because this
was actually happened at Coleman
>> Coleman camp which was a female camp at
the time there's a big case that was
there where there were something like 12
women that got together. And even though
Jess says only about six of them she
knew were were she's like listen some of
these women she said you couldn't have
paid the guards to to sleep with them
and the other women she said they were
literally getting into arguments and
fights on who was going to get to sleep
with this guard.
>> Okay. the women were throwing themselves
at throwing themselves at and they're
because and also
um there's one girl that and and they're
carrying on affairs like their boyfriend
girlfriend.
>> Wow.
>> You know, so so they would and keep in
mind too once the benefit is one of
course you get to have that little
thrill of going to work and you see your
your boyfriend, you know, and and also
this guy knows that you're
>> you have nothing there, right? Like
you're you're in a bad position. So
he'll bring in stuff for you. You know,
they bring in socks, they bring in
makeup, they bring in stuff that they
think you can get away with, like little
things that don't say you didn't get it
from me. And there's so much contraband
in a camp anyway.
>> It's easy for you to say,
>> you know, like or say nothing
>> or for the the guards or the
administration to think somebody else
somebody brought it through through um
visitation. So they're bringing in cell
phones for my girlfriend, right? So we
can talk on the phone, that sort of
thing. Sure. Anyway, so yeah, this is
definitely happening. The problem is is
at one point somebody gets them all
together and says, "Hey, let's file a
lawsuit because we can prove if you can
prove like, "Hey, collect a sample." You
know what I'm saying?
>> And then one girl, I think, got pregnant
>> and that's a problem.
>> Yeah. that guard, which was named in the
lawsuit, uh once he realized it was her
and it was probably his, he drove into
the parking lot and I don't know if he
stuck the gun in his mouth or to the
side of his head, but he committed
suicide in the parking lot with his
firearm.
>> Oh boy.
>> So, uh you know, all of them were fired
and uh ultimately fired and none of them
were actually charged. They were just
fired, which the girls are all upset
about. But then they also got this
ridiculous like $20 million loss um uh
settlement too. It was outrageous. And
what's funny is Jess is there and she's
like they know what the guards know what
they're doing too.
>> She's like like you go turn in your keys
and the guard kind of grabs your hand as
he's taking the keys and kind of holds
your hand as he slides it back. And
she's [snorts] she's this one guard did
this
>> being flirty
>> flirty and and and Jess was like that's
never going to happen. And just turned
around and just walked away. And she's
like, you know, she's like, he never
tried me again. He never did. She's
like, from then on, he was like, that's
fine. Just put
>> Did she ever have any stories of guards
pressuring the women beyond uh
>> No, I don't think I'm That is not to say
that it does not happen. Like I
absolutely believe that those types of
things h those types of things do happen
in this case because she had such
knowledge of it
>> and watched these these things. In that
case, it did not happen.
>> Okay.
>> But absolutely. And it doesn't matter
anyway cuz you know, we would have this
discussion. and she and I would have had
this discussion cuz they were the girls
were trying to get her to jump on the
lawsuit.
>> And she was like, "I'm not going to do
that." Um, and
so I was telling her, she's like, "I I'm
just I don't I think it's wrong." I go,
"I think it's wrong, too." But I said,
"I also think that you're a guard and
you know better. You know what's going
on."
>> Well, that's the spirit of the rule is
that the power dynamics too vast. You're
a professional. You've chosen the
profession of being a corrections
officer. You know, don't you don't want
to be called a guard. That's fine. I'll
respect that. corrections officer. But
but let's start acting professional if
you want to pretend that this is a
profession.
>> Yeah, but I think that some of them
definitely pressure some. It's pos very
possible.
>> Okay. Well, 28-year-old Hector Rodriguez
was a jailer on the night shift at Web
County Jail in Laredo, Texas down there
on the border.
>> Okay. There's a female prisoner named
Katrina and she's in the jail shower one
evening and she notices Hector standing
there just staring at her like drinking
in the sights. He follows her to her
cell and continues lurking while she was
brushing her hair and getting dressed
and the whole thing just gave her the
creeps. Okay. Um nothing happened on
that occasion though, but he's got his
eye on her. One day he drags her into a
private room, touches her shoulder, and
says, "I've seen you with your shirt
off, and you look so good." [snorts] And
then he starts kissing her uh neck and
her chest. And all she could do was cry
and tell Hector to stop, right? She
can't fight him back. He's a big strong
guy,
>> right?
>> He then turns her around, pushes her
against the wall, and takes her by
force.
>> Right.
>> Right. Nightmare. Meanwhile, another
inmate named Maria had a similar
experience.
>> Yes. Same same guy, the different girl.
He orders Maria into a different room in
the jail where he had all the windows
covered up in paper. I guess it was one
of those offices that has interior
windows in there. He had taken paper,
put it on the windows so no one walking
down the hallway could see what's
happening in there.
>> He pins her arm behind her back, pushes
her against the wall, and forces himself
upon her again. no consent. This was not
some tehe giggly romance between them.
This was just a nightmare for these
girls. And this is a jail, too. I don't,
you know, it's not even really a full-on
prison. So, these women were probably,
>> you know, innocent until proven guilty.
>> Um, the women were friends with each
other, though, and they kind of shared
their trauma with one another, and they
decided, you know what, this is BS and
they call the FBI. Incredible act of
bravery from these victims. Um, the FBI
goes in and interviews the women and
kind of determines that these women are
credible and then they bring Hector into
a room and begin interrogating him. At
first, he denies everything and then
they start using some FBI interrogation
techniques on him. Stuff that, you know,
I learned at CIA school and FBI school
and all that.
>> They tased them.
>> No, no, no, no, no. That's not how we
roll. Um, and he admits during under
interrogation to forcible sex with these
inmates and he they arrest him right
there on the site. Okay. He pleads
guilty to a to federal charges for
aggravated sexual uh abuse charges and
civil rights violations. That's usually
the hook that the FBI uses and he thinks
that he's vi he's violating these
inmates civil rights. Um, anybody's
guess what the actual sentence was, Matt
Cox? But, uh, we'll let you be the one
to guess. Um,
he is a um ordered as part of the
sentence to be a mandatory offender on
the offender list. Has to uh register.
>> Oh, I when he gets out. Question is, how
long is it going to be before he gets
out? What what was the sentence itself?
Um,
oh my god.
Uh, I'm going to say
20 years.
>> 20 years in prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Talk to me. Let me hear your
thoughts.
>> Um, I mean, I'm only I'm trying to kind
of compare it to women. Uh, yeah. Two
cho uh like the charges that these CHOs
get. The problem is that they don't
typically
so I'm trying to balance it between the
state
>> state charges and federal
[clears throat] charges because it's
funny because in the federal system you
can have gone on a website and
downloaded some um some CP
>> Mhm.
>> and get 10 years,
>> right? Or you can talk to a kid online.
And remember I told you about the the
German got like 20 25 years for flying
in thinking he was meeting a sexually
curious, you know, 12-year-old boy or
13-year-old boy.
>> Mhm.
>> Um
>> and turned out to be like a a very
aggressive 45-year-old FBI agent. But um
and he got like 20 25 years. And I think
he went but I think he also think he
went to trial because he was saying that
the age
>> was appropriate in Germany. like the
four it was 14 years old was the age of
consent in Germany that's kind of thing
so
>> and uh so I'm trying to think of that
and balance that with but the problem is
in state in the state you literally can
the they will have like guys in the
state will have a a an assault charge on
a woman you know and they'll get 10
years 15 years you know what I'm saying
it's like that doesn't make sense like
this guy's didn't touch anybody he maybe
would have but he didn't
>> and or he's carrying on an affair. I
knew a guy that had 15 years for
carrying on an affair with a a kid and
the kid was sending him pictures and
stuff. They got him for the pictures,
but it was also the affair and I think
he got 15 years. I mean, so I'm trying
to think. I mean, he may have gotten 30
years, but I I'll bet you but I'll bet
you it was like, you know, then you have
to have these girls testify. They don't
want to testify. They don't want to put
the girls on the thing. Are the girls
going to then their their crimes show
up?
>> Remember he he confessed, right? So, at
this point, the government's playing a
pretty strong hand. They have two
witnesses and they have proof. Let's say
25 years.
>> 25 years.
>> Maybe 20. You're killing me, man.
>> I'm not killing you. I just want to know
what your answer is and I want to
understand your thought process cuz
that's why the subscribers subscribe is
because they like to look inside the
mind of Matt Cox, expert in crime.
>> And we we used to always kind of
>> We're also dealing with two women here.
I think you keep forgetting that.
>> Yeah. No, I I I know. Um
uh
20. I think 20. He didn't kill him. Uh,
probably 20.
>> You set the bar really low. He
[laughter] didn't kill him.
>> Okay. Is [clears throat]
Final answer, M Cox, I'm going to let
you come up with it because you're kind
of all over the place, sir.
>> I am all over the place because I I keep
thinking in the state, they just don't
you don't get what they
>> It's not a state charge. It's a federal
charge. It happened to be a state jail.
He's still violating. Yeah, it's a
violation of the civil rights. That's
what they're getting him on. So, you see
what I'm saying? Like, they're not
getting him on the the actual act
itself. They're getting on.
>> Well, again, the what I have here from
the court records is that he plead
guilty to federal aggravated sexual
abuse charges and civil rights
violations.
>> 25 years.
>> 25 years in prison.
>> 25 years.
>> Okay. Is that your final answer?
>> That's my final answer.
>> After all this hemming and hawing and
dancing and
>> 25 years.
>> 25 years. Okay. The correct answer is 20
years.
>> [ __ ] [ __ ]
>> I'm not laughing at the crime. I'm
laughing.
>> I'm going to the bathroom. [laughter]
I'm going to the bathroom.
Come on, Bobby.
>> Is that Did I get it?
>> Oh, yes, you did.
>> No, no, no, no, no.
>> 20* 1.25
>> is 25.
>> 1.25. Yeah.
>> 20* 1.25 is 25.
>> Okay. You're right. You're right. You're
right.
>> We still got it. But
>> yeah, almost on the head. You had a
couple. You had two that you could have
hit right on the head,
>> right?
>> Yeah. We we we avoided that train wreck.
[laughter]
>> Five. Let's do a national security
story. Past few weeks we've been doing
ISIS stories and I think they're kind of
interesting. Um and and it kind of
leaves a wide open field for you to
guess the sentence correctly
>> because most of the time I get them
wrong.
>> No, that's which is not my agenda. My
agenda is to entertain our beloved
audience, our beloved and growing
audience who's going to like and
subscribe to the new channel. [snorts]
Uh our boy is Oasis Chowry, 25-year-old
guy lives in Queens, New York. Um, he
pledged allegiance to ISIS and he began
planning a knife attack in New York.
>> He should live in Somalia is where he
should live.
>> I don't think he's Somali.
>> No. What is he?
>> Um, it's a good question. I don't know
what his ethnicity is, but Chowry would
not be a Somali name.
>> No.
>> No.
>> Um, I don't know what his original
country or origin is, but he lives in
Queens, New York.
>> So, he decides he wants to do a knife
attack on ISIS because he's pledged
allegiance. He wants to
>> for ISIS.
>> For ISIS, right? Um he's going to he
wants to do a mass killing and um and
dedicate it to ISIS. And ISIS has people
who just like sit at their basement
overseas and their whole thing is to try
to um convince Americans to do these
mass attacks, right? Like that's that
was very different than al-Qaeda in
their operations. They're trying to get
lone wolves, like you know, lonely
dudes. So Mr. Dr. Chowry begins scouting
possible targets, pedestrian bridges,
the Flushing Bay prominade, and begins
making reconnaissance videos to try to
figure out when the area would be most
crowded. So, I do this at p.m. or
at noon or p.m. When can I get the
biggest bang for his mass killing buck?
Okay.
>> He's got a knife.
>> Yeah, but uh but you know, there have
been knife attacks in Europe where the
numbers are just astronomical and how
many people you you can you know
>> Okay. I'm not saying this is the
greatest plan in the world. I'm saying
that it that it's this is a real plot.
He seeks advice from people online, ISIS
supporters, about what type of knife to
use
>> and how to avoid leaving fingerprints or
DNA. Right. He's hoping to get away with
this.
>> I think if he did it in Florida, you got
a better chance of getting killed by the
crossfire. Yeah. Than by the knife.
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
Right. Florida and Texas.
Exactly. you're not going to be able to
clear your sheath without getting lit up
by 50 grandmothers. Um, then he begins
circulating ISIS material among his kind
of advisers showing where on the human
body to stab people. He's making a real
science of this. So [snorts] then he
goes out and he actually orders a
tactical knife online, like a Rambo
knife.
>> Um, he orders a mask because he wants to
be masked. He's hoping to get away with
this and gloves. And um he's also
ordering like straps on his chest that
he can stick his iPhone into so he could
video the killings and put them online
um to kind of win people over to the
ISIS cause. He's
>> he's expecting to get away with it like
>> Yeah. He's going to get he's wearing
going to wear a mask. He's going to do
the stabbings. He's going to run away
and he's going to upload it online and
this will fment an Islamic revolution
and people will join ISIS to rise up
against the infidels.
>> Okay.
>> He's got a plan. He's thought this
through. Cox. Um,
yeah, he's going to inspire other ISIS
supporters by by this thing. And so,
you'll be maybe you would, maybe you
wouldn't be shocked to learn that the
FBI is all over this, right? The FBI's
mon if if these ISIS recruiters overseas
who are reaching out to like, you know,
slightly mentally ill, disaffected
people in the US trying to convince them
of this. We don't always know on the
front end who to monitor here in the US,
right? There's plenty of like, you know,
mentally ill loners out there, but we're
pretty good at identifying who on who is
sitting in their basement in Damascus,
Syria,
>> um, you know, hopping on YouTube and and
and you social media platforms to find
these guys and recruit them into doing
it. And those people are being
monitored.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, the FBI learns about this
attack. Chowry is arrested while he's
trying to retrieve the gear from the
online retailers pickup um, locker. You
know how in cities they have those
things where if you live in an
apartment, you can't necessarily get an
Amazon delivery and so there's like a
box there and you get a code and so
that's he went to go pick up his knife
and some of the gear
>> and he gets arrested by the FBI and
killed no one in this process but the
planning was for real. Uh no attack
occurred. Um this went well beyond s
just speech online and he was actually
conducting surveillance. Um ordered the
equipment, attempted to pick up the
equipment. He pleads guilty to providing
material support to ISIS. How much time
you gonna give this kid, this
25-year-old Mr. Chowry,
no criminal history.
Um,
she
>> Queens, New York. Gee,
20.
Yeah. 25 years. 25 years in prison,
right? Like
maybe 20. You think 20? What do you
think, Colobe? Give me a sign. You got
something I haven't looked at. I haven't
looked at the thing, but I'm not
>> It's case number five in the case file
that I sent you. If you want to look
>> um
>> again, remember the little New York
judge?
>> Yeah. So, right, it could be some
left-wing liberal judge that uh that you
think exists in New York. But New York
also has a New York judges still
remember 911,
>> right? I don't know 20
>> recap what he did real quick.
>> He just was about to Sorry. Go ahead.
um pledges allegiance to ISIS, talks to
ISIS organizers online, begins planning
a mass stabbing campaign to recruit
other people to do ISIS attacks, buys
the knife, um surveills the um different
public locations in uh in New York City
that he's going to do this, looking for
crowd density and the appropriate time
to do the killing, and then orders the
knife and the kind of body cam setup
that he had. and uh and a mask and when
he going to go pick him up from the
Amazon locker um he gets arrested
because the FBI had been monitoring this
activity from afar and he's charged with
material support to terrorism colobby
and he pleads guilty
>> and he's is he American citizen
>> you know I don't have that I'm afraid I
I usually in these things it would say
and so I think he may be a US citizen
either naturalized or born here but he's
just a 25year-old kid
>> I'd say 30
>> yeah I was going to say 25 I'm going to
say 25 is that what we're doing now?
We're helping Matt.
>> Oh, I don't know. I haven't I haven't
[laughter]
I haven't I haven't looked at it.
>> Phone a friend. 25 years in prison. 25.
Is
>> that your final answer, Matt?
>> Yeah, cuz if it was 30, I think he just
go to p he'd just go to trial.
>> Okay. So, um he got 9 years in prison.
>> [ __ ]
>> And then 15 years of supervised release
after that. They're going to keep an eye
on this kid.
>> Yeah. I don't feel bad cuz I I never
would have said nine years.
>> Okay, let's do a bank robbery story. I
think bank robbery stories end up being
really fun because they're so
hairbrained at times and uh and the
people think of bank robbers, you know,
they watch like Oceans 11
and uh and movies where they're they
really think it out. You know, it's the
heist crew and there's the guy who's
maybe a little quick on the trigger and
there's the other guy who's the planner.
It's like I'm the driver. I'm the best
driver. But the reality is some of these
guys are just pretty pathetic.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Um,
Flazelle Beasley,
73 years old.
He goes on a Denver robbery spree.
He robs two banks, two credit unions,
and because he wanted variety, he wanted
he robs a taco shop also. Okay. He's he
sees himself as just the John Dillinger
of Denver. Okay. In each robbery though,
he had a thing. Maybe he was a fan of
the village people. He dressed like a
construction worker [laughter]
and he would threaten the employees with
a high quality replica gun. I don't know
if it was like an airsoft gun or
something like that, but it looked real.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. You ever see the Woody Allen
movie Take the Money and Run?
>> Mm-m. uh he plays a bank robber in it
and he carves a perfect looking gun out
of a bar of soap and paints it and then
uh and and he um he robs the bank and
when he steps outside it's raining and
and the and and it becomes just a a
thing of bubbles, right? [laughter]
>> I don't know why I thought of that.
[snorts] The last bank though in this
run um makes a a a problem. In addition
to the money in the money pack, they
have a small GPS chip in the middle of
the money pack that they give to
Flazelle.
Flazelle doesn't know this that he has a
GPS tracker on him as he's making his
getaway dressed like the Village People
construction worker. [snorts] And he
gets on a public bus. Okay,
>> these guys that are robbing places and
jumping on like a bicycle,
>> does his getaway at the public bus. It
was good timing because right when he
was leaving the bank with the money and
a GPS in it in a bag, the bus comes up,
Flazo gets on it, pays his 75 cents or
whatever, and he sits there.
>> Law enforcement is watching the tracker
move down the main high main main road,
stopping every block or two for a while,
trying to understand what's going on.
They're like, "This son of [ __ ] is on
the bus." Um 12 minutes later, they um
arrest him while he's sitting on the
bus. At the foot of sitting on the
ground is the bag containing the stolen
tra from the bank robbery, the replica
gun, the construction vest, and the
construction helmet. Okay, so Flazelle
has a problem on his hands. Pretty good
proof, but you know what he does? He
goes to trial. [snorts]
You're going to have to prove that
Flazel did this.
And uh the jury convicts him of four
counts of bank robbery cuz he was on
this spree, right? And one robbery
affecting interstate commerce for the
taco shop cuz the tacos the meat came
from outside the state of um
>> Oh, Colorado. They do it. They
[laughter] do it. It's It's an in It's a
business engaging in interstate
commerce.
The FBI describes him in their press
release as being a lifelong criminal and
a serial bank robber.
>> Okay. [snorts] He's elderly, though. And
I want you to think about that guy.
Flazel Beasley is 73 years old,
>> right?
>> Okay. Um, but he did rob five businesses
and get caught riding public transit
with the tracker in his bag. How much
time are you going to give Flazel
Beasley?
Oh, no. Car.
I don't know. Let's go. I'm just
guessing cuz he's so old. 73 now. And
they seem to be based on some of the
other ones that you did, they seem to be
given a little bit of a little bit of
leeway for these guys. And it's New
York. Is it New York?
>> Denver.
>> Denver.
>> Denver. Colorado. My high city.
>> Very liberal.
>> My daughter lives there.
>> Yeah.
>> She could have been on the bus with
Flazel Beasley.
>> Yeah. That she would have been perfectly
safe. [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> I think this guy's dangerous.
[clears throat]
>> My daughter would not be on the bus.
She'd be at the taco shop though, for
sure. [laughter]
Um
80 I don't know 84 months. What is that?
Seven years. 84 months is seven years,
right? 84 months
or is it or 90?
>> He did have a He had a gun.
>> Let's assume that Flazelle also has a
criminal history, right? That Flazelle
just didn't wake up at age 73 and decide
this is how he's going to like a career
bank robber.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Career. I don't know if the
career bank robber is based on the two
banks, two credit unions, and taco shop
that he robbed recently.
>> Spree, I don't think of that as
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> I don't think um
>> let's say he has basically the highest
criminal history that you could uh
really
>> I don't I don't know. I'm assuming
Listen, if you're 73 years old and this
is your jam, Matt Cox, you didn't wake
up and decide to do that. You've lived a
pretty rough life up until then. And
you're right, they described him as a
lifelong criminal.
>> Yeah. I don't know. If you're going to
describe someone as a lifelong criminal,
you know, that's not jaywalking.
>> 10 years.
>> 10 years.
>> First of all,
>> huh? You think it's too much?
>> I don't think I think it's a fine guess.
>> Don't do that. [laughter]
>> I mean, I think it's it's if it if he
was in his 40s, I would say he's getting
20 [ __ ] years. You know what I'm
saying? But he's an old man.
>> The counterargument, though, is that the
crime's the crime. The sentencing
guidelines are the sentencing
guidelines. Who cares how old he is?
I I I
want to say, you know, if you give him
he'll he'll be in his 80s when he gets
out and he'll have aged out of it, but
it's already 73. He's not aging out of
it.
>> He still has lead in his pencil.
>> You know what? Uh I don't know. It's
probably 20 years, but let's say 15.
>> 15 years in prison. All right. Is that
your final answer, man?
>> Yeah. You're going to say seven, right?
[laughter]
>> I'll let you take it back. I'll let you
take it back if you want.
>> No. 15. 15 years in prison. He got 17
YEARS 6 MONTHS.
>> OH YES.
>> YOU DID GOOD. YOU DID GOOD. SEE, I got
you there. I got you there. You ready to
give this guy all you?
>> You ready to give this guy probation?
>> 207.
>> Oh, he probably Oh, he died in prison.
A
>> a
>> He's probably a lot of fun to be around.
>> Yeah,
>> bank robbers usually are, man. They're
funny. They They have good They haven't
met
>> You know what I was thinking? I was
thinking why why you started the story
is like we need to have Victor Shear
back. His episode did not do
>> Oh yeah, I know. Yeah, Victor. It didn't
do well. I know. I don't know what h
Yeah, Mad Duck.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't know.
>> Come back.
>> Mhm.
>> It was only like a It was a year ago.
No, over a year ago because it was at
the It was at the my my house
>> wasn't here.
Yeah. Very upsetting. This guy was
something else, bro.
>> He was a bank robber.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, he wasn't. Mad Duck was. Mad Duck
was. And he keeps as he's descri he
talks about his wife and this and that.
And he's like, you know, we pull up and
we this and we're going in the place and
we're doing this.
>> And [snorts] then I go, "Well, you mean
your wife? I thought your wife was in
the car." And he's like, "Oh, no. My
wife is at home." I'm like, he goes,
"Oh, wait a minute." He said, "I I I
skipped that part." We're like, "What?"
He said, "When I say we," he said, "I
need to go back." And he starts talking
about [laughter] an in he's always had
an imaginary friend.
>> Oh.
>> And his imaginary friend's name is Mad
Duck. He's a crazy person. [laughter]
>> He's He know He knows it sounds crazy,
but he's like, "So when I do something,
I feel like he's always with me." And so
sometimes and so he starts it's so we
this and literally he's like like I I
walked up to it the door and I sat there
and I I turned to Mad Duck and Mad Duck
said, "Well, what are you going to do
player?" And I said, "I'm going in this
bank." He said, "Let's do it." And so me
and Mad Duck, we walked in the bank. And
you're like, "Holy [laughter] [ __ ]
>> this could be a great movie."
>> It was amazing. Listen, not just that,
it's not like he got robbed and c got
caught. We're talking about there's he's
out running the cops. He's jumping on
trains. He's swimming through [ __ ]
rivers. He's I mean, this this is
multiple banks that he's robbing. And
when they catch him
>> and they get him out of the police car
and he's handcuffed, they're walk the
the cameras are there and we have the
video and the and they say, you know,
did you rob those banks? And he goes,
we'll see. [laughter]
In his mind's eye, is Mad Duck an actual
duck or is it a person with the nickname
Mad Duck? I don't know, but I mean I I
can text him right now. He's still text.
Listen, he's got an Airbnb. He's got
cabins up in the woods. They're Airbnbs.
It's called Mad there. It's Mad Duck
whatever like village or Mad Duck
something. Uh he's got like shirt. He's
got all kinds of
>> You remember where Matt's place was last
like where we the last studio was? He
had walked there from who knows where
>> from the hotel.
>> Yeah. So like this hotel is it's miles
and miles. So, we're filming an episode
and he just shows up in the middle. He's
like, "Yeah, I just figured I'd walk
over here."
>> Steps in.
>> I had an hour or two. I figured I'd just
walk in.
>> It was a nice It's a nice neighborhood.
You got this guy, this bank robber
walking through your subdivision.
>> It was great.
>> I'm glad you moved the studio here for
no other reason than your lovely wife
not having to deal with these
miscreants. [gasps]
>> All right. I love this next story. Okay.
I'm such a fan of this next story.
You're going to love it, too, cuz it's
just so ingenious and came so close to
making this happen. [laughter]
Christopher Aan. Let's [snorts] give a
shout out to our homeboys at the US
Secret Service and the IRS Criminal
Investigative Division who investigated
this case. My former colleagues at the
FBI had nothing to do with this.
Christopher Doutton is his name. Um he
files paperwork with the IRS
changing the responsible party
information for two big corporations to
his address.
>> Okay.
>> Right. So, um, and so what happens is
the IRS accepts these changes and then
sends two gigantic refund checks going
to big corporations. They don't say what
corporations they are in the court
records, but let's say it's like Google
and Microsoft or whatever to him. Okay.
He opens his mailbox one day after he
pulling the scheme off and change
basically doing a change of address form
with the IRS
>> and finds himself with a $32 million
check to one company and [snorts] a
$26,000 check to the other being their
tax refunds.
Crazy in this world that the IRS is
sending a $32 million check to a Fortune
500 company with their tax refunds as
opposed to dealing with some sort of a
situation, but this happened.
>> Mhm. Okay. So, he finds himself he's in
Georgia and um and he he has these
checks and he gets in the car in Georgia
and he drives to Ohio for reasons that
are unclear to me. And he walks into a
Morgan Stanley office and says, "I'd
like to open an account."
>> Mhm.
>> Now, but the checks are payable to these
big corporations. They're not payable to
Christopher Din. Okay. And uh
>> I know how to get away around that.
[laughter]
>> Yeah. And so he had established online a
Morgan Stanley account like a trust,
right? And so he goes, I'd like to
deposit these in in his name. And so his
exp and so the the Morgan Stanley
clerk's like, "Why is this check payable
to this giant corporation, these two
giant corporations, and not you if you
want to put this in your Morgan Stanley
account?" And he said, "Uh, the
companies owe me money for illegally
using my personhood."
God.
>> Yeah, they're a crackpot.
>> Yeah. And the uh IRS has transferred the
payments from these corporations to me.
>> Then why are they still in the
corporation's name?
>> The financial adviser at Morgan Stanley
looks at the Treasury checks and calls
the Treasury Department and says, "Are
these valid?" And they're yet, yeah,
these were validly issued checks by the
US Treasury Department, which made this
whole conversation even stranger. How
did this guy,
>> right,
>> get these checks? the Morgan Stanley
person doesn't know. So Morgan Stanley
says, "Could you wait over there in the
[snorts] in the lobby?" [laughter]
And they call the US Secret Service um
and the IRS um to find out what happens
here because Secret Service does a lot
of stuff like that cuz they used to be
part of the Treasury Department um
before Homeland Security existed. And um
and the Secret Service and the IRS come
out, hear his explanation, makes no
sense. They seize the checks and um and
they ch and he gets arrested for wire
fraud and theft of public funds.
Christopher Dton takes it to trial, but
he chooses a bench trial thinking that
the judge is going to understand that
his personhood has been stolen.
>> Did he also represent himself?
>> I think so. I think this guy is is
sniffing around the sovereign citizen um
movement here. It's just got that feel
to it when you're talking about
personhoods and IRS filings and in
forms. I mean, it was weird because one
of my sovereign citizen case, I only had
like two or three cases ever go to trial
because I was, you know, I made cases
that people plead guilty to. One of them
was a sovereign citizen. He represented
himself and he asked for a bench trial
because their theory is that their that
that you have to be super intelligent if
you want to understand the theories of
the sovereign citizen movement. and a
learned judge who understands the law,
you're gonna have better luck with that
person than you will with 12 little
ladies in sneakers on a jury.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, judges
really enjoy those types of arguments.
>> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Well, and it didn't go
well for Christopher Dton. The judge
found him guilty of wire fraud and theft
of public funds. But remember, he never
converted those checks into actual money
that he could leverage and spend. But he
did actually have the checks. Yeah. And
uh and gained them through fooling the
IRS by filling out a simple form like a
change of address form.
>> So what would the judge give this guy
for this $32
million case? Matt Cox,
and [clears throat] I do not know what
his criminal history is.
I don't think he has a criminal history
of any significance, though.
Maybe maybe 15 year 15 16 years. I want
to say maybe 17. Really? Say
>> ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I
never got the money. I know.
>> I never got the money. Ladies and
gentlemen,
>> potential.
>> Your honor,
>> it's hypothetical. Your honor,
>> I'm say I'll say 15 years.
>> 15 years in prison. Yeah.
>> Well, talk to me about your thought
process.
>> Well, I mean, I don't think he deserves
more than, you know, let's say three
years because he's an idiot. And I think
you got to take an idiot into
consideration.
>> And you don't think the judge sees that?
>> No. I think the judge
>> You think the judge sees the world
through your eyes?
>> I think the judge when he has to listen
to this [ __ ] ridiculous argument and
realize this guy is What is it? The Is
it the Dunning Krueger effect? Uh uh
what's that? Is it Dunning Krueger? Can
you look at it? Dunen Krueger. Uh, it's
when you're you're not smart, but you're
I'm sorry. You're you're not quite
smart enough to understand you're
stupid.
>> Dunning the Dunning Krueger.
>> Dunning with an ing. Okay. Dunning
[clears throat] Krueger, sorry. Effect.
Yeah. So, it was it was a it was a
experiment that was done or you know by
these two scientists who had people that
you know they have a little bit of
knowledge on something. they they
believe they have a massive amount of
knowledge and understanding of a subject
that they don't and they it's because
they're not quite smart enough to
>> the definition is a cognitive bias where
people with low ability skill or
knowledge in a specific domain
drastically overestimate their own
competence.
>> Yeah. But you know what's funny about
that? It also works the other way. So
the other part that's what people focus
on. There's another one where it's
someone who is extremely competent in a
subject and they for some reason they
they downplay their competency. They're
like, "Yeah, I'm not sure. Like, I don't
really know enough about it." But the
truth is they know a ton about it.
>> So, it actually works the other way, but
nobody even focuses on that part of it.
It's always the because everybody knows
that guy who talks about [ __ ] that
you're like, "You don't know what you're
talking about." So, there's there's a a
um in business books and uh you'll see a
lot of discussion on the difference
between men and women where men walk
into a job that they're unqualified for
and they go, "I got this. I got this."
And women walk into a job that they're
totally qualified for and they're like,
"I feel like an imposttor."
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> No, right. It's just men are just
>> But it's the same way about lying,
right? Like women 80 we we lie equally,
>> but 80% of the time that men lie, they m
they lie to prop themselves up. Yeah.
>> 80% of the time that women lie, they lie
to prop someone else up. Your dress
looks great. That skirt look makes you
look so thin.
>> You know, you have you lost weight. Like
that's all a lie. You know, [laughter]
we have a weight. You look like you look
like all of outer space in your little
black dress. I mean, you know. Okay.
>> But yeah.
>> So, so just getting back to Christopher
Don, it sounds like you're vacasillating
between three years and 20 years. Which
one do you want to land on?
>> I think 15 um 15 years.
>> 15 years in prison. probably got 10 15.
>> Okay. Is that your final answer?
>> Yeah. He's a jerk off. He went to trial.
He's an idiot. I don't know. He's an
idiot. See how much the taxpayers to pay
for his care and feeding though for
somebody who didn't really even get a
penny from this hairbrain scheme.
I'm just playing devil's ad.
>> The problem is he went to trial,
>> right? Wasted some judge's time.
>> You wasted You're wasting tons of money
and you you're not believing it. You
don't seem to be get it doesn't seem to
be getting through to you. They stole
his personhood.
>> 15 years. [laughter]
>> Final answer. Yes.
>> Final answer. 15 years. I tried. He got
three years in prison.
>> [ __ ] rid. I said 3 years.
>> You did. And I tried to bring it back
there, but you just wouldn't listen,
Matt Cox.
>> Yeah, he did.
>> Speaking of the Dunning effect. Yeah,
>> he did say. Yeah. So, you got 3 years
and 20 years.
>> So, when I say three years, do you get
shocked for a second? I'm like, oh, I'm
so happy for you. [laughter]
Don't believe him. Don't believe him.
He's not a nice person. This is all an
[laughter] act.
>> Oh my heavens. [clears throat]
Uh, so we have two questions left,
right? No, no, no. Wait. One, two. I
have three questions left. Is that
right?
>> Um,
>> yes. Cuz there's eight. There's Yeah,
you're two of eight right now, but
there's 11 on the board.
>> Okay.
>> So, you need
>> I can't wait. I I'd have to hit every
one.
>> Four. You need four more points.
>> Yeah, you got four points. You got three
more stories. I just have to hit one on
the head.
>> Two on the head.
>> Or get all three right.
>> Yeah.
>> You got this. You've done this before.
>> You're You're not as dumb as you think.
[laughter]
It's the dunning whatever effect.
>> All right. Um let's go to the
reservations. We've been doing some uh
stories on Native American reservations.
And I think it's sort of an interesting
perspective. Um, I never served uh any
of my time at the FBI on Native American
reservations, but the agents who do find
it really interesting because they're
doing more policy type crimes. Um, but
uh, but this one's a straightup
financial crime. So,
uh, these Native American names, Buffy
Redfish,
she worked for the Oglala Sue Tribes
Tribal Employment Rights Office on the
Pineriidge Reservation. The idea, and
this is kind of interesting, is that
this tribal employment rights office,
they collect fees from building
contractors who want to do business on
the reservation. It's almost like a tax.
If you want to do business on this
reservation, you need to pay, you have a
license to do it on the reservation. And
so Buffy's job was to receive these
checks from contractors and then
transfer that money from the Tarot
office, the tribal employment rights
office into the trib's revenue
department into their general fund.
Okay?
>> And um and so what we have here is a
7-year period of time that Buffy and a
codefendant, we're going to leave the
codefendant out of it though, started
diverting those checks. Okay, the checks
come in from the contractors. Instead of
depositing them into the Tarot account,
they begin moving, she begins moving the
money into
her friend's bank account. The two split
the money and they use it for
themselves, including homes and
vehicles, etc.,
>> $4.7 million in tribal funds. Um she had
worked at the tribal office for a long
long time for 18 years, but she'd only
done this for the past the last seven
years of her career. Um because she's in
the best position to move the money
around. Again, this is one of those
things where they trusted one person
with just too much information. Um, I
don't know what happened to her
co-conspirator, but I know that Buffy
was convicted um at a trial. Um, and
they found her guilty of four counts of
wire fraud and three counts of money
laundering. Uh, the amount of money she
stole, again, was $4.7 million. She
spent it all on stuff, shared some of it
with her coworker who allowed her bank
account to be used,
>> right?
>> And um,
>> and again, 7.4 4 million bucks over a
7-year period.
>> 7,
>> sorry, $4.7 million.
>> Yeah. My fault. And uh and she spent it
all because she owes all that money in
restitution.
[clears throat]
>> And again, this is not like a false
vendor scheme. This is diverting income
scheme.
>> Income diversion scheme.
>> No criminal history.
>> She went to trial.
>> She went to trial. Yeah, that's that is
true. She went to trial and was found
guilty of four counts of wire fraud and
three counts of moneyaundering.
>> Um 96 months.
>> 96 months.
96 months. That's how many How many
years is that?
>> Uh nine. It's No, it's not nine years. I
mean it's not it's eight years. Eight
years.
>> Eight years. Um on a scale of zero to
100. Zero being you feel terrible about
this. 100 being you're metaphysically
certain that you hit it on the head.
>> 70%.
>> You're you feel [laughter]
>> I'm 70% sure.
>> You're 70% sure that she got 96 months
in prison for this. Yes.
>> Okay. Final answer.
>> Yeah. The correct answer is 78 months in
prison. Right.
>> 78 * 1.25 is 97.5.
You're good.
>> You made it. Oh, cool. Good.
[clears throat]
[laughter]
>> Okay.
>> All right. See, you're the comeback kid.
We've we've had this conversation in the
past in previous episodes about the um
about the idea that the judge in for an
embezzlement case needs to um also
consider the impact that the
embezzlement had on the business. Like
like if you if you're able to drive a
business out of business by stealing
money, the judge is going to see that as
really bad as opposed to kind of a
rounding error for a big corporation
even if the dollar amounts the same in
two cases.
>> Right? Okay. So, I want you to think
about that for this case here. Okay. are
um you ever been to Santa Fe, New
Mexico?
>> I don't think so.
>> Just got back from there. I had never
been to New Mexico and I went to Santa
Fe. It's a nice little town. Uh they
have a lovely downtown. Uh everything's
done in kind of adobe. Um and uh it's
one of those towns though that's um
that's the altitude is crazy high. It's
like twice as high as Denver and so the
air is really thin. So you think you're
in cardio shape and then you walk two
blocks and you're like [panting]
>> and it's also super dry and so um as is
Denver and as is Vegas and so like if
you have any kind of sinus issues like
you know your sinuses are just dried out
so you got to get that saline spray and
stick it up your nose and all that. But
I like Santa Fe. Um it's a town with
other than that on the fact a bloody
nose [laughter] and you feel like you
have asthma all the time the town itself
is lovely. Charity Felch of Santa Fe,
she worked for an electrical company,
electrical contractor, and um the owner
trusted her enough to give her a job and
housing as part of her job. Isn't that
kind of amazing? Like you can live in
the apartment out back or above the
store, whatever. um for three years. The
basically she fraudulently paid herself
and her husband extra paychecks and she
also used the money from the company for
personal expenses and then she does what
we always see in these situations. She
covers up the theft in the accounting
records cuz she had access to that as
well. I'm a little unclear on this one.
the she committed bank fraud, aggravated
identity theft, and access device fraud
by using someone else's identifying
information and financial accounts. I
think she's using the boss's ATM card
and to to do transactions, which
probably caused the identity theft
because it's part of the embezzlement
scheme.
>> Um, and she was able to steal $386,000
from the small electrical contractor.
Not an
>> Yeah. Um, not an astronomical dollar
amount, but while she's on pre-trial
release. Okay. to get she gets charged
with this crime. She's awaiting trial or
a guilty plea. Things usually come out
in a guilty plea.
>> She starts giving fake information to
pre-trial services. Pre-trial services,
as you know,
>> acts kind of like the probation
department kind of supervising you
before you've been found guilty,
>> right?
>> Okay. And uh and they want to know, you
know, what are you doing? Where are you
working? Where are you living? How are
you surviving? How are you making money
for yourself? and she just starts lying
to pre-trial services about her
employment after she gets fired from the
electrical contractor and and the FBI,
you know, busts her for this thing. Um,
and then uh then she starts and she's
just basically telling all these lies at
the sentencing. The judge f is really
annoyed by this because pre-trial
services works for the judge. And I
because I want you to think about this
and the judge is in at the sentencing
finding her testimony about her
employment history not credible. and and
makes a legal finding that she lied to
the supervising officers with pre-trial
and after her guilty plea at the
sentencing when she's lying to
probation. Okay, the judge makes a big
deal with this and I'm giving you a big
clue here.
>> The owner comes into the owner of the
business comes in to give his victim
impact statement at the sentencing. Um,
that happens at sentencing. The the
victims have the right to go in and
address the judge before the judge gives
the sentence out there. Um, and she
plead guilty. The owner said that the
theft nearly ruined the company and
delayed his retirement plans. Okay. He
had intended to kind of take some of
this nest egg that he had built up for
working this electrical contracting
business and retiring. Now he can't do
it cuz he's missing $386,000
because Charity Felt decided to just
loot his business even after she
provided him with like housing and a her
with housing and a job. So, we got
$385,930
restitution, but a lot of misconduct.
And remember, part of the charge was
aggravated identity theft, which you
know a thing or two about, which
increases the sentence a bit.
>> Um, what sentence would you give Charity
Felch?
>> Um, uh, criminal record.
>> I don't get the impression that she had
a sizable criminal record. Okay. But but
again, the identity theft is a problem
and when you're computing a sentence in
your mind, $386,000 is a problem and the
judge and also the, you know, nearly put
this company out of business, right?
>> Delayed this guy's retirement plans and
then she's acting like an a-hole to
pre-trial services and probation, lying
to them about what part-time job she got
while she's awaiting uh her sentence.
So, and uh so there's just a lot of
aggravating factors here I want you to
think about when you come up with the
sentence. Matt Cox,
>> 96 months. 96 months.
>> 96 months in prison.
>> You think that? And she went to trial,
right?
>> No.
>> Oh, she didn't. Oh, she plead guilty.
>> She plead guilty.
>> Five years.
>> Five years.
>> Five years.
>> 60 months.
>> Yes. Sorry. I thought she went to trial
for some reason.
>> No. No, she didn't. Five years.
>> Five years. And And you're you're you
got the identity theft in this in your
brain and you got all the other
aggravating factors we discussed in your
brain. You're coming.
>> Maybe five or six years, but yeah, I'd
say five five. It's just not a lot of
money. Probably not a
>> She's not in charge of
>> Did I do a good job of explaining how
annoyed the judge was with her?
>> Yeah, but I also think he's kind of, you
know, kind of handcuffed
by the guidelines. I mean, he he can go
beyond the guidelines are advisory.
But they also when they go outside the
guidelines, it's almost an automatic
appeal. You know what I'm saying? It and
they don't want an appeal.
>> So
>> 7 years,
7 years. Let's go. Seven years. That's
84 months. 84 months in federal prison
for a crime as pitily as 38.
[laughter]
>> All right.
>> Yeah. 84 months. Let's
>> final answer. Yeah.
>> The correct answer is 111 months. Oh,
>> and 75% of 111 is 83.
83.25. And you guessed 84.
>> [ __ ]
>> You got it.
>> So, you're good.
>> I said Oh, I said seven years.
>> Yeah, you said 80. Say 84.
>> Okay. So, you're within it.
>> He made it by like a month or two.
>> By 75 of a year. So,
>> 15 two weeks.
>> Hey, you know what, Beck? You're
welcome.
>> No. [laughter]
No. You're desperately happy when I
lose.
>> You're welcome. I helped you out there.
Right.
>> All right. All right.
>> This is the goal.
>> That's what friends do. Okay. We're The
whole premise of the show is what an
unlikely friendship we have. And this is
what friends do. When a friend falls
down, the the good friend picks them up.
>> What is there? Some Why do I don't know
what the it is, but it's like my or
buddies.
>> We're buddies. What is that? You know
what I'm talking about? They're like
friends or something like that. Buddy.
Yeah.
>> That's the whole premise. You want to
get to the last story with a chance. So,
you're four of 10.
>> Yeah. This is it. So, this is this is
for all the marbles. Well, you have this
head of 11, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hit this
one on the head.
>> That is
[laughter]
>> Are we done?
Last question. Yes. And you've got to
hit it on the head to win this thing.
But you know what, Matt Cox? I believe
in Matt Cox. You are the shooting star
I've attached my career to. So, I
believe in you. I think you got what it
takes. I think he got the right stuff to
get this one right. And uh and the good
news is that we're going back to the
world of of illegal arms dealers in the
world of Ukraine and Russia. Your area
of expertise. You you wrote a book about
this world. So
>> um [snorts]
we're the main character, our defendant
is a Canadian national named Nikolai
Golsev. I am Nikolai, but I am now a
Canadian national. He ran a global
procurement network buying American
electronic components
and then routing them illegally to
sanctioned Russian companies. Okay.
Including military companies. That's the
that's the background. That's what he's
that's what he's trying to do.
>> Yeah.
>> Got it.
>> So he uses two Brooklyn businesses to um
source dualuse electronics from US
manufacturers. The electronic parts are
sent through front companies. Okay.
sending electronic he's got electronics
but he's sending them to front companies
in Turkey, Hong Kong, India, China, and
the UAE who are then rerouting them to
Russia. Kind of what we talked about
earlier in the episode where you kind of
come up with a a super Byzantine
distribution network but to get the
stuff to your actual end buyer in
Russia. Okay. Um, [snorts]
some of the components that he's
shipping are later found in Russian
weapons platforms and signals
intelligence equipment that is seized in
Ukraine. Right? So, if you're a
Ukrainian and you seize some expensive
kind of, you know, warfighting equipment
that the Russians are using, you're not
just going to take it out back and beat
it to death with a sledgehammer. you're
going to um take it apart and if it says
it comes from Nikolai Goldsb's company,
they're going to maybe alert your
American friends to that, hey, there
there's this American this Canadian
American this this Brooklyn company um
they're these components came from them.
So, that's how this case gets reverse
engineered. Does that make sense?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Um, we're talking about hundreds
of shipments. Um, once they began
putting it together, the FBI and
Homeland Security Investigations and the
Commerce Department begin working this
case. Hundreds of shipments worth more
than $7 million of electronic components
going into Russian war fighting stuff to
be used in Ukraine. They search the
messages and Nikolai Golv Golsev is all
over these messages and about how he's
going to get around export control
rules. He's disguising the real end
users. Um, in a message that they
download, he and his wife are talking
about how much money this scheme can
make them. Um, they got him dender
rights,
>> right?
>> They finally arrest him in a hotel room
where he's in this hotel room with
$20,000 cash, which they seize.
>> Um, and they seize other assets that he
made using this scheme, $1.68 million in
seizures, the bank accounts and maybe
cars and stuff like that.
um he pleads guilty to the export
control conspiracy. So the dollar amount
um hundreds of shipments, $7 million in
equipment, some of the money recovered
um there and but he pleads guilty to
this export
>> where they they they go off the 7
million probably
>> if Yeah. I mean I don't know enough
about export control violations to know
if it works on a normal fraud sentencing
guidelines. I don't think it does
because it's not a fraud.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, it's not not a Ponzi scheme.
It's not an embezzlement. It's it's
probably has its own sentencing
guidelines. I'm sure it's similar. I'm
I'm sure the sentence he got is probably
very similar to what he would have
gotten for $7 million. But no one's
being defrauded um other than the rules
that America has put in place saying
that US companies cannot provide weapons
materials to the Russians to kill
Ukrainians.
>> Right.
Um,
>> you've got to hit it on the head, Matt
Cox. You have no choice. Failure is not
an option.
>> I thought I just had to win it.
>> There's there's 11. You got to get you
got to get 50% or more. So, you need six
of 11.
>> Yeah, cuz you just get you just get it
within 25%. You got five out of 11. You
know what that is? That's the big L.
>> You can do it, buddy.
>> I can do it. You can. [laughter]
>> This is your jam. You write books about
stuff like this. [clears throat]
>> You're a human computer.
>> I don't know.
>> Are there any facts of the case you're
unclear of that I can answer for you?
>> No.
>> Okay. [laughter]
>> Be quiet and let Matt think.
>> 60 months.
>> 60 months in prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Five years in prison.
>> Yeah.
>> You're going all in with that bet.
>> Yeah.
>> Pushing your chips.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
60 months in prison is your guess.
>> Yes.
>> This is amazing. Mecca.
>> No, it's not.
>> It's amazing.
>> He's going to say it's it's like 11
years or something. What is it?
>> You got 40 months.
>> 40 months.
>> [ __ ]
>> Sorry. Sorry, buddy.
>> Yeah, I was going to guess 40 anyway. I
was going to go with a number. So, that
wouldn't have been
>> Yeah, that's tough for the 40 cuz it's
not even It's not an even uh
>> amount. Yeah.
>> Did I I still want No, I didn't get it.
>> The final score, Colby.
>> Four of 11. Four of 11. of 11. I'm so
sorry you missed it by a hair, by a
nose.
>> I know. It's upsetting.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> You did good, though.
>> Proud of you, man. Proud of you, little
buddy. [laughter]
>> How we doing?
>> I was thinking of uh uh 158. I was
thinking of the little buddy just made
me think. I was watching the Wolf of
Wall Street scene last night where the
FBI agent interrogates the uh Jordan
Belelfr on the yacht. He's like, I'm the
little guy. He's like, me the little
guy. And I was thinking like this would
be funny to watch YouTube break down
this kind of interaction because it's
like seven minutes long.
>> When I do live when I do live Q&As's on
um Tik Tok and Instagram, the one of the
questions I get more often than not are
what are the what FBI movie is the most
realistic, right? Like to your
experience and I say and uh I say the
town with um where John Ham plays the
FBI just trying to catch the bank
robbers in Boston. It's great. It's a
great movie and and the tone of it and
the way the FBI operated and it that is
just spot on.
>> The other one I I cite is the FBI scenes
in The Sopranos, exactly how we handle
sources and conduct investigations. And
then the other one I cite is that scene
in The Wolf of Wall Street where Kyle
Chandler's the FBI agent and he's having
that conversation with DiCaprio on the
boat who basically offers him a bribe
and then his partner comes, could you
say that again just like you said it to
me? [laughter]
>> I love that. And again, the tone was
just right on. That's how we behave.
>> Uh, anything else?
>> No. I just want everybody to subscribe
to the channel and hit the bell.
>> Yeah, me too. So, what you can do though
is if you're interested in being a part
of what we're growing here, the Tom
Simon and Matthew Cox show, uh, why
don't you subscribe to the show? Even if
you're subscribing to Inside True Crime
with Matthew Cox, which you should cuz
that show is delightful, follow this one
as well. Hit the bell. You're going to
be notified every Wednesday at noon when
we do a new episode. Uh, he is Matt Cox.
I am Tom Simon and you are delightful.
Thank you so much for watching the show.
See you.
