[Music]
Hey everyone, welcome back to the
homebased podcast. I am your host Chris
Moody and today we're thrilled to have
Jason Materno with us to discuss the
evolution of ABM from traditional
targeting to AIdriven precision. Jason,
thanks for joining us today and welcome
to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me,
Chris. Really excited. Awesome. Well,
we're pumped to have you here. I know
you're joining from San Antonio. We were
just talking about how a very painful
loss for my favorite basketball team,
Duke in San Antonio. But uh maybe part
of your journey is what led you to San
Antonio, but we love to start with you
telling us a bit about what led you to
what you're doing today.
Yeah. Well, uh like I said, I I kind of
love to start with the short version. Um
I think you know, I'm in Texas now. I'm
a CEO of a Martekch company, Full Circle
Insights. and I'd say, you know, started
selling software building companies in
the 2000s uh in snowy Canada and uh a
lot of things in between and now now I'm
down in uh San Antonio. So, it's sort of
been a really interesting ride. But on
the ABM side, you know, we're talking
about ABM. I think I started my career
doing ABM. Uh maybe used to call it old
school personalized enterprise sales.
Now it's called ABM. and now I'm selling
and doing ABM. Um, and so I just love
the topic. Um, I know it's a popular
topic uh for marketers and sellers. So
that's kind of the the skinny version
and uh, you know, happy to sort of
extend that out if if we want to get
into it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's uh let's pull
in the thread for ABM. I'd love to know
what led you to focus on accountbased
marketing. And one thing that I do like
that you said, we used to say this a lot
when I was an analyst, especially to
sellers. The best sellers have always
been doing accountbased, right? It's not
this totally new thing, but I'd love to
hear about what made you passionate to
focus on it. Yeah. I I think so. For me,
it's I was looking I was thinking about
this the other day. I think it's been
this kind of progression where you know
first company that I started out of uh
college in Toronto. We we were building
we basically were buying Dell servers
loading our software like everyone was
doing in the 2000s and uh and we were
doing enterprise sales. So you know I
was part of the founding team and the
the whole thing was around
accountbased selling penetration things
like that and at the time uh it wasn't
like I was taking notes saying okay all
right I'm doing APM this early in my
career and then every company um I've
been mostly focused on selling
enterprise uh selling maybe smaller
things into into accounts and I think
being at full circle as CEO where we
sell ABM measurement products sort of
similar you guys sell uh and have
products like similarly you know we
partner with a couple joint customers at
demand base um I think looking at all
that it was like a progression and I
hadn't really noted down that you know
at every company um it was it was a
thing but um that that's that's what
I've been kind of living and breathing
for 20 years um I probably have a lot of
contrarian points
um on both sales and the marketing side,
which which is sort of maybe just my
personality, but I think the the the net
of it is that I've always been doing it.
Maybe it's been called something else
and uh and now we're in the business of
selling it uh and obviously uh using it
to our advantage to to grow full circle.
So, I think it's been sort of with me
for for my whole career. Uh and and now
and now I'm sort of looking back
uh I I could say like yeah that that's
kind of how how I got here and and and
why I've been really excited to do it.
But it wasn't very uh intentional like
it wasn't a master plan uh so to speak
as as life is right. So it's kind of
it's kind of been fun to look at it that
way at least. Cool. Yeah. I love that.
And you know when you look back what are
a few of the moments that stand out? So
if you're thinking of the big milestones
or or chapter headers where you're like
ah yeah these few experiences really
shaped how you think about ABM.
Yeah. So I think I'll start with the
classic. So I think the first time I saw
Glengary Ross. Uh I think we've all seen
the clips or the movies or versions of
it. You know they've got the leads on
the on the qards handing handing the
leads to the sales guys. So I
think throughout my throughout my career
starting in the 2000s I think part of it
has always been the salesoriented
mindset. I know you know marketing is a
key component of any business uh whether
BTOC B2B but I think what's interesting
about marketing today especially as we
went online is um there's so many things
that are the same as they as it used to
be on the sales side but but we've sort
of created a a pocket for marketing to
have its own words acronyms and and
things like that and I think it's been a
function of how companies are organized
but really when you boil it down, it is
still very much the same motion as
enterprise sales, personal uh outside
sales as it was in the 90s and the
2000s. And so I think, you know, moments
like Glengarry and then moments where we
were literally walking down, you know,
we I um had customers, if you've ever
been down to Front Street, Manhattan,
there's this great little pizza place
and around the corner you've got the
DTCC and like all the huge banks. And so
we were selling into these banks and we
had like two, three major accounts. We
were a small company and we just had to
maggyver our way into these things
around like, okay, there's obviously a
product component. So let's go get Dell.
Let's go load some Linux on it and throw
throw a bunch of code on it like
everyone was doing. But then there was
just all of the personalities and how to
get into those uh environments as a
especially as a small company. I mean it
it's um it's really interesting and and
I think now you talk about okay buying
groups and all these you know there's
all these formal definitions and I think
at the time and and for me you know just
being early in my career too I was uh we
were going through the motions but but I
remember specifically these moments when
we were trying to figure out a MacGyver
plan to kind of get into the base right
so there's like this base so you take a
Chase bank okay how do you get into a
Chase bank because you go to chase.com,
it's unclear how you get into that
account. Um, and that's a kind of I
think a crazy uh extended example, but
but that's kind of to me what it is. And
so it's like, all right, how are we
going to get into we sneak around the
back? You know, how do we distract the
guards? You know, what are the tactics?
And um that's what I think is really fun
about ABM because it you you have to
focus on people you know so somebody's
name
uh that I think is actually become a
foreign concept where well hold on no
we're talking about ICPs you know we
don't talk about names like let's just
talk about the ICP and there's like that
picture of a person and it says that
they're this kind of person they they
work here and I said guys like every
account. There's there's a there's a
human there. And I think that
personalization piece is is really what
got me hooked on just selling at every
company I've been at in in different
capacities and then now coming full
circle around the products we build and
then now it's obviously super digital so
you can measure stuff differently and
you know now marketing is really sort of
uh really involved. Um,
uh, you know, like I said, so there was
kind of, like I said, a couple of
moments, but definitely the Glengary
kind
of I'm a sales guy, you know, I I like I
like telling stories, but at the end of
the day, I think all marketers, the best
ones are sellers, too. Um, they're just
good at crafting stories and sort of
putting the the the sort of storytelling
hat on. And I think that's how I kind of
see things moving forward where you have
new marketers coming into the space and
you know they ask like how could we
grow, where's things going. I said like
if you can nail that and you'll be
extremely valuable. It doesn't matter
what the tech is and all this AI stuff
that obviously we'll be talking about.
Um it's it's kind of that piece. So that
that that's like I said some of the some
of the things that that resonate with me
back in the day. That's awesome. I I
love that. And you know, one of my
favorite parts about hosting a podcast,
it is connecting stories. So, to your
point, it's it's listening. There is
some prep, right? But listening and then
connecting the dots. You also use full
circle in your explanation. So, well
played. You get a bonus point for that
for using full circle. Yeah. Um, you
know, you talked about buying groups,
you talked about personalization. We
still probably both run into some
organizations that feel a little bit
hand over the lead card, Glen, Glen,
Gary, Glenn Ross style. Uh, you know,
ABC always be closing, right? Like we
still run into that stuff, too. But if
you think about the last decade, how do
you think account-based marketing has
evolved, especially with the emergence
of the digital tools and data that you
talked about? Yeah. No, it's
interesting. I mean I I think yeah I
mean you know you see the a lot of the
the MQ you know there's I think
different camps there's the long live
MQL MQL is dead uh like slogans then
there's the yeah you know forester we
have like it's it's accounts now it's
not this lead you know uh it's not this
lead funnel then it's the buying groups
buy stuff not h not leads uh I think all
of those are true and I I think if you
look at Now
2015 the biggest shift and the biggest
thing that I think has happened with
tools especially maybe in the last five
or six years um I don't know if COVID or
that sort of digital remote period had
like an amplification effect but I do
think that as we've gone more digital as
we've gone more remote distributed as
we've gone more uh maybe as as tools
have unbundled there's like SAS tools
for every little point product. You
know, you have I don't know how many
tabs in your Chrome that are opened.
there's always there's just like more
and more tools that I feel like the
marketing team maybe maybe by by force
has become sort of detached from like
the point of sale and and I think you
know they're they're they're almost
abstracted from they they they've had to
create ICPs because it's no longer sort
of scalable to think about people's
names and like that account that person
where they where they play golf, how how
they do their thing. And I think the
tools have become like this like command
center because the data is flowing in
and and you know, we've got all these uh
data sets that we need to measure and I
and I think in a lot of ways it's made
marketers
um like a it's detached them. So maybe
they're more scalable, but I would argue
that the the um the best ABM programs
don't need super digital scale. Um I I I
always recommend I was just talking to a
CMO in one of our other companies and he
said look when you're starting an ABM
program I mean you can start in
different ways but what you don't want
to do is start with tools first. Buy
some 500k tool and use 5% of it and then
you know by year three maybe you're at
7%. Start basic, right? I mean, you you
you got to just start with the basics,
get the motions going, and if stuff
works, you can kind of say, "Hey, what
are the tools or the AIs that are going
to come in and say, "Hey, this piece is
a little bit clunky. Uh we could get
like really good automation. Let's go,
let's go fix that piece." And I think a
lot of again my my uh take on it, I I'm
just one vote, but is that there's this
tool first mindset. Buy the tool.
uh drink the
Kool-Aid and like run the flow and and
your ABM program is going to be
successful. Um so I think there's
there's that piece and then I think the
other one is kind of a footnote is I
think somewhere in the 2020s this
intent, you know, we got to talk about
the word intent, this sixletter
word, it like took the world by storm. I
I can't remember like it there was like
a world with no intent and then it it
seemed like that was it. Like if you
bought an intent platform and you just
spent like a huge budget, which by the
way was a lot easier to get in the 20
early 2020s than it is now because it
was sort of free money.
Um that was it. You know, boom,
checkbox. You know, you're going to know
who's raising their hand. soon as you
hit you call them, you're going to
create like an incredible pipeline and
then it's just going to close and
everyone's going to be super happy. And
I think what we found is that I think
there's a little bit of a of a
reflection on that which is I don't
think the most successful companies that
have maybe used these tools or these
technologies that was the forcing
function. I think it was like the teams,
the the the leadership, the strategy,
things like that. And so I think there's
been this over reliance on tools. Um,
and I'm a tech guy. I mean, I started my
my career as an engineer. I love the
tech and the all this AI stuff that's
going on, but I think it runs the risk,
especially with the newer generation of
sort of creating that abstraction layer.
And u I think again marketers the best
uh are should be sellers at heart,
right? And and I would argue sellers
that could tell stories are the most
successful.
Yeah, absolutely. I and I don't disagree
with anything you said. So just to for
everyone listening, I work at demand
base, right? Obviously it's in our best
interest to sell technology and tools,
but from my time here and my time as an
analyst multiple, you know, too and
Gartner, right? Strategy has to come
first. It always increases the risk of
churn, decreases the actual
effectiveness of any product when
technology comes first. So you have to
understand your strategy. Intent's no
different. Honestly, I think that's
partially why intent has a bad rap. Many
people bought it as the silver bullet
just to say now uh here's the hot lead,
right? Like it's it's almost a different
note card that they were handing and not
changing how they were doing their work.
And it hits on alignment, too. And I I
do think this is one huge element of
accountbased which we could debate if
accountbased marketing is actually the
right term because some will say that it
hurts alignment when you go into a
seller and you're saying hey this is ABM
you know marketing owns it when it's
only successful with sales and
marketing. I'd love to understand your
perspective as both sales leader and
CEO. What do you think is the secret to
making sure you have true alignment
between sales and marketing to to really
improve the impact of account-based
marketing? Yeah, I so it's a great
question. I I think I think you're on
you hit the nail on the head with the
ABM. So I think the I mean you know now
you've got people say well let's get rid
of the M. Let's put an X on it. Okay,
good. Accountbased exper. So I do think
that intentionally or unintentionally
names matter. you know, acronyms matter.
Uh we're all creatures of of these
things. Uh and and so I think yeah, ABM
it's like, oh, it's like marketing own.
It's like, yeah, but hold on. This is
like personalized, super scalable uh
metrics driven enterprise sales from the
20 uh the 2000s that I remember, right?
And and I think now now given a name,
it's over here. And so I do think that
it's probably working against it, but
that's for only people that probably uh
focus on like the name versus like look
the program and the objectives. I think
the number one objective for companies
that are that are launching these
programs is to uh grow their business,
right? And I think the the world of of
leadbased or sort of just those kinds of
approaches um especially for B2B um it
it sort of doesn't scale and and and it
doesn't necessarily apply to obviously
the larger uh larger companies. So if
you're a company that's selling, you
know,
$49 products that are transactional, you
know, there's all the typical productled
motions and things like that, but as
soon as you start to have to talk to
humans and convince executives and
things like that, again, it goes back to
20 years ago is the exact same thing.
And so to your point, that intent thing
where it's like, okay, you got the Q
cards, there's like this separate stack
of Q cards. Yeah, these are the hot
leads. I think that that's what really
happened. And I think it it doesn't
necessarily change the fact that like
look for this to be successful. There
needs to be a partnership and I try to
tell my team this the same thing uh
which is
look you guys need to be aligned at the
hip. You're already aligned on the P&L.
So when I when I see like the sales and
marketing costs and what we're investing
you guys are aligned at the hip and so
you guys should be attached at the hip.
And I find often times companies for
different reasons are still in these
like, you know, buckets that are
separate. You know, some CEOs have like
read the the McKenzie reports that, hey,
you should probably hire a CRO. seems
like that's going to bring it together
because they have a word revenue in
their title, which which I think is is
is true in in some areas, but at the
same time, I think it's it's I think
simpler than that is, you know, for me
as CEO, it's just like, look, what's our
northstar metric? Okay, this quarter
it's going to be we need to grow
bookings. Okay, so let's let's simplify
what that means. So let let's we need to
get pipeline built and however that
comes in um we need to measure it make
it effective and that could be sales
activities could be uh your activities
their activities but align on the same
metric I think don't complicate your
technology I think there's too many
tools out there I find sales people
calling me all the time saying look
there's another tool that we just bought
and somebody's using it for some other
thing like the tool itself is good But I
think a lot of companies run into tool
paralysis where they sort of chase the
uh shiny coins. Oh yeah, there's this
new workflow tool. If I get that tool
connected to this other tool, then I'll
be able to buy this third tool and it's
going to be beautiful. And it's like,
look, let's get back to basics. You've
got sellers, you've got your marketing
team, and um you guys are on one sheet
of music, right? Like what are we doing
this quarter? Okay, we're going to go
after these accounts. How are we going
to do it? Who's going to go after them?
What are the tactics? Who's sending the
golf balls? Are we doing wine? Are we
using airplanes? Like, how is it going
to work? And I think a lot of that is
just a the thing I love about it is it's
in this digital world, it's really
human. Like, it's like, let's all get in
a room, virtual or not, and and kind of
figure it out. And that's what I
remember when I started my career is
that's how it was. This is like kind of
right when it went from pre- internet to
internet and and it was to me it's a
beautiful thing and I think that's where
you get that alignment because it's not
a um like I said it's not sort of a
marketing function or a sales function
and they're completely separate. They
have different tools. Like think about
how many customers you guys have on
Salesforce. Like we're a Salesforce
native app, right? So most of the planet
runs on Salesforce. um uh in some
respect. I mean there's lots of other
tools out there but you know sellers
live there and you know there's other
tools that have come online and and they
have other platforms like demand base
too for other things but the key is if
sales because usually sales is an
important piece right we talked about
like they're they're running the sales
process the bottom of the funnel they
their alignment on compensation is tied
to closing deals bookings to uh to close
deal then if if they're not getting some
value because again they're super busy
like they they they need to pay the
bills. So they need to be feeling like
any distraction or or value ad is coming
to them to help them accelerate the deal
closing because they're responsible for
taking it the football over that goal
line. Maybe marketing gets you to the
goal line, right? In the classic sense,
but there's that giant battle on their
last 10 yards. And what I like about ABM
and the alignment piece is just like I
said, it's the human element and and I
think if you need tools because you're
super big and distributed, of course,
that's helpful. Um, I do think there's a
play for measurement and you need to be
able to report a northstar metric like
how are we doing? Why are bookings down?
Which channels work? You know, did did
our did this ABM program work? Uh did
these tactics work? Why? Why not? Why?
Why? And why not, right? And I think
that's where technology plays where you
can like measure and track. But I think
just there's a real big danger in this
like AI kind of push. I know that a lot
of companies are launching AI
initiatives including ourselves
internally and
products. It needs to be a complement to
this human element because I see this
danger. I see it in my kids. I mean they
they they're now in GPT, right? They
don't go to Google to follow the blue
link. So they GPT everything like they
are so abstracted from like sometimes
the source the the the how that data got
put together and they're just consuming
that end result that like I said it's um
you're getting far away from like who is
your buyer? Like what are their names?
And I think that's really what moves the
needle for the most successful ABM
programs. Um, and it's not the the tools
and the technologies, right? So, it's
sort of a long wrap around the barn, but
I think it's the get everyone in a room,
northstar metric. You got to have a way
to measure it, use the automation where
it makes sense, and and obviously make
sure it it's uh it's getting
communicated out. Right. It's funny how
often I see all this happening and then
it the results are being broadcast. So
it's like I think what's interesting is
there actually is a there is a need too
to to to socialize and and continue to
sell the success of this program and
programs to management to the team.
That's how you get buy in. And I think
it's a constant one. So I don't think
it's a it's a set and forget. And I
think u that's really important. I I see
that sometimes where uh things are set
up and they just go and we'll check in
in 6 months. Look, we all know ABM,
right? It's like sometimes the top of
the funnel you get you get companies
that didn't know about you. Just getting
them to know about you is a massive win.
I think for some people they're like,
well, that's just, you know, it's going
from this stage to that stage. They kind
of break it down as a pipeline. Look,
the effort to get a small company to be
known by your preferred buying group or
buying targets of people, that's a
monumental win because they didn't know
about you six months ago and now they
know about you. And if you can't show
that that's like an activity, then it
could be, you know, your whole program
could be in jeopardy. So I think that
ability to
use this case maybe the tools right that
to to sort of storytell hey we're we're
making moves and and we've got more time
that we need but things are progressing
um is another piece of it and I think
that brings like I said the team
together because the sales and marketing
team need to be I think in the same like
spreadsheet or tab or whatever you want
to call it. uh otherwise they um you're
just going to have like two reports or
two uh versions of that. Um which again
is is funny because I'll say all of this
and then I'll I'll jump into some some
room or some board meeting where you
still have two versions of the truth is
it's kind of funny. He's like
marketing and
sales still have like a different number
and it's like oh I'm like okay so so
it's still it's still a thing and and I
think what's funny about that is is I
just uh I just think it's u it's still a
testament to this isn't like a perfect
science right so just because we do all
these things going be 100%. there's like
80% and there's going to be like this
20% that is always on the on the
periphery and and u you know there's
different ways to solve that depending
on how you want to run the business or u
how leadership uh tackles those pieces
but I think 80 to 90% is is a good
start. Yeah, totally. Well, you've hit
on some of these already, but I'd love
to know from all the folks you're
working with and talking to, what are
some of the common traps you see with
accountbased? It could be myths, mis
misconceptions, outdated practices. What
are some of the things you run into the
most that you wish people would stop
doing?
Yeah. So, I think if if I'm just
picturing a trap, you know, bear trap
kind of thing. So I I do think you know
I will have to touch on intent again. I
I think like personally in our business
the amount of conversations I have with
go to market leaders that are
experiencing what I call an intent
hangover is is larger than I than I
would expect like normally. And I and I
kind of dug into this. I've been start
studying it the last say six months and
I said like tell me a little bit more
about that and I think it's back to what
we talked about with the hot leads right
so the the pink cube cards not you know
the special one with the with the boat
versus the regular and I think it was
sort of a you know if we if we buy that
and we just invest in that all will be
solved we don't need to align the teams
uh we don't need to like get the team
the humans together. We don't need to
come up with the like tactics and
strategy. Um I'm not saying people
didn't want to, but it it sort of
created this this sort of uh perception
that the magic is just going to come
out. You do that, things will flow. And
I think what you found is that I think
some programs are probably successful
and they've been accelerated and things
like that, but at what cost? So, I'm a
big, you know, I I open up and I look at
the P&L like couple times a week, look
at the bank accounts every morning and
um I think it's important to look at the
cost side of it. I think marketers that
look at
costs though, they're good. Like I I
think it's a a skill to be able to to to
be interested enough to bring that into
the fold because I think absent cost,
anything's possible. anything could be
made positive or negative, but I think
it really comes down to the ROI. And so
I, you know, I follow a guy, uh, David
Spitz, he's on LinkedIn. He's sort of
there's a couple of these guys or these
uh SAS metrics, you know, there's a
community of these SAS metrics folks on
LinkedIn and he puts out this great
content where um I don't know exactly
what the last period was, but he parses
out, for example, a table that looks at
all the public companies and he he puts
all their their numbers in and he spits
out this uh what's called go to market
ratio percentage. It's like how many
dollars do I need to
spend put in, right? So, put into the
jar and to get $1 of ARR out. So, how
many in to get $1 out? And not only are
the numbers getting tragically bad right
now, which I think is a function of what
I've been talking about, but it's a
really interesting measure. It's not the
only measure. one measure, but it's a
really interesting measure for like the
companies that are, for example, putting
in 50 cents to get a dollar of new
business. I'd love to have that
business. Now, if the business was
really small, uh it's like there's some
success there, but if you're talking
about a billion dollar company that's
putting in 50 cents to get a dollar out,
that's an incredible business. So, I
want to study that business. What What
are their programs? and often not when
you look at them highly an highly
analytical company they're they're
running some sort of
account-based motion I mean you look at
their LinkedIn you stock their LinkedIn
profiles and see how they're set up that
is usually their tip of the spear
they're focused on that and they have
other activities
um and and you know some of these are
our clients too so we kind of like we
have a little bit of an inside scoop on
it too but the and and again they they
probably they're
probably and I'm not 100% sure, but
they're focused
on putting the selling salespeople and
marketing people in the same place. So,
one tool, you know, there's lots of good
tools, but just pick one and put the
whole team in there. I think the tragedy
could be buy two really good tools
uh and then put one team in here, one
team in there and and they're not like I
said for for a number of different
reasons. They're not super aligned
because uh they sort of have these
little moes and I think um leadership
needs to kind of fight that. That that's
kind of our job is like look that's that
maybe sounds great. Maybe it's like the
the the perfect thing to do but at the
expense of alignment. Um, and so like I
find that's a big trap. Uh, that that
was a big bear trap. And I think this
uh, you know, I might even do some pods
around this intent hangover. It's been
really resonating because people are
like when I say it, they're like, "Oh,
well, yeah, that's I I we're feeling it
a little bit." And and I and I think
it's a simplified version of the story,
but it was this silver
bullet thing. And I think now with free
money being over
uh I mean look at just the last quarter
with what's going on politically,
geopolitically. I mean things are
shifting really quickly. And so suddenly
what used to be this is esoteric, you
know, thing called how much ROI are we
getting from these programs that's
become front and center. Um and I think
it's going to really continue.
Um, and and I think like I said, it's a
um it's a key input that needs to go
into the ABM program. It's like
measuring the the the follow-through
ROI. And I and I think companies that
don't may maybe they don't bring the
finance side into it. So they're focused
on the experience, maybe the the the
metrics of just raw
output without bringing in the
underlying cost. That might be a really
big trap. And and I think CFOs are
getting smarter. They've got wicked
tools. Like the the amount of power a
CFO has at their fingertips now because
they've sort of left Netswuite and and
QuickBooks, they're plugged right in.
They're in Salesforce. in some of these
tools. Um, they've got, you know, a lot
of these AI, uh, capabilities that are
coming out. Uh, so that's a big trap.
And, and I think I'd recommend marketing
teams, uh, even the sales leadership
like at what cost? Uh, and and I think
that's, um, I wouldn't say it's a past
trap. It's I think still it's an ongoing
trap right now. Yeah, definitely. Well,
we're coming up on our time, but I have
a few more questions, so we'll try to
hit these quickly and then we'll shift
into the lightning round. So, we have
some very quick hitters at the end, but
um you've talked about AI, you've talked
about personalization and relevance,
also hit on scale. I'm curious how you
think AI is going to change
account-based go to market strategies.
Yeah. So, I'll try to keep it short
because this is one of my favorite
topics. I could we could do a three-hour
session here. So I think that what's
really exciting about AI for
accountbased is I think for the first
time the you're going to have a cost
effective way for the maximum amount of
businesses to be able to
hyperpersonalize,
hyperarget, measure and analyze things
which is kind of the effectiveness. And
then and and really probably again just
from an experiential point of view make
it super easy for everybody across the
company to use these things the
adoption. So they're not
dedic there's these analysts or these
sort of specialists that are in charge
of these these these areas uh and they
have to sort of boil it boil it down and
deliver the message to other folks. I
think so that's really what the game
changer is going to be and I think
that's on the pro side on the negative
side actually what's gonna be happening
and you already see it
is just like you know my one of my
favorite books 22 Immutable Laws of
Marketing I think if you haven't read it
pick it up it's a quick read 1993 22
laws they still all apply one of them is
like look if everyone starts doing it
it's so easy it's so easy now that just
like there's 10x amount of people, it
becomes so saturated
that all your tactics and all your
approaches, they just don't stick. It's
too competitive. And so it it's almost
like that creates sort of a an a massive
amount of adoption, but it makes it I
think even more challenging to uh as a
company especially to distinguish
yourself. I think right now for example
it is the most challenging time even if
you've picked a category you know talk
about category design where you're sort
of one of one you know because everyone
it's better not to compete with everyone
so how do you slice your category till
you're that one of one perceived and
it's becoming harder and harder because
um everybody at scale can do all these
things I mentioned before and it seems
like there's an infinite amount of
choice
there's always a all-in solution for
every problem. And how do you choose as
a buyer? It's almost like a buying group
like the buying team. Uh it's like you
could be chasing these things forever.
Oh, next week just just when you think
you've you've selected something,
something new comes online and then
something new. So the pace of it has
changed. And so I think as uh as
account-based the the team, the strategy
team and the execution team, it's like
what does that mean? So I always think
about that too. I don't I I don't have
all the answers of where it's going, but
I
think using AI, the team's going to need
to use AI also, I think, to
maybe work
on strategies or tactics that they may
not think are obvious to try to
differentiate. So, it's like a you have
like an AI that's like looking at
everything that's going on and and
saying, "Look, everyone's chasing this
shiny coin over here. With a little bit
of tweaks, these kind of tactics could
work because you'll be able to
differentiate and that might make the
big difference for for your program."
And so, I think it's like a super
interesting time uh in that respect,
right? and and and I think like I said
um it's fun because the adoption curve
is going to be high. You don't need to
have a PhD in uh analysis and uh
statistics and uh you know you can have
people that write content. You know you
these beautiful people that write
stories and they're able to participate
in this. Um, so you'll be able to kind
of extend out who's involved, which I
think helps with alignment, right? You
have the whole organization doing it,
not a few people in the company.
Love it. Awesome. Well, we've you hit on
one book already, so we're going to jump
to our lightning round. We have a couple
very quick questions to close us out
today. First, any books, blogs,
newsletters, or podcasts that you'd
recommend to our listeners? Yeah. So, I
uh first of all, I I think everyone
should should subscribe and keep
listening to this podcast. Oh, thank
you. Lot lot of great content here. Uh
for sure. I mean, it's it's a it's a big
pedigree of content. I I think books 22
Immutable Laws, pick it up if you
haven't read it, especially if you're
new to marketing sales. Um I think it's
key. Uh some sometime you got to watch
the Glengary Ross movie. Um it it's so
classic, but the Q cards
uh it it all comes together when you're
talk with some of the things we're
talking about. So that's a favorite
movie of mine. I think April Dunford is
she's an author. She wrote a few books.
They're more on like positioning,
category design, and selling. U but we
we use those actually across all of our
portfolio companies. I think there's so
many flavors of that, but she just does
a great job at talking about that space.
And so, April Dunford really like that.
And I definitely love uh you know, two
pods that I'm I'm listening to all the
time. Uh one I I think everyone's these
days listen to AllIn, right? So Allin is
a super cool podcast because they're
sort of giving me the weekly news feed
and that actually on Fridays I digest it
think over the weekend and you can sort
of maybe re-underwrite some of the
assumptions of planning in the next
follow on week. So I kind of use it as a
nice uh week uh news recap and then
invest like a best. I really like that
podcast. Uh Sean there he runs that.
It's just like I said, I um I gear more
towards sort of the investing side. Um
but but I think again um you know, as
CEO of the business, it it's I'm in the
business of like capital allocation. So
where are we going to put our dollars to
make the most impact? Like if it's an
ABM, great. Um like what are the
returns? And so I like listening to what
other companies are doing because what's
funny about ABM or or just countbased is
a lot of these successful companies that
continue to grow at scale have figured
out this motion and I think it's a
combination of people. They have great
people uh they obviously have have a
great product uh something to sell and
um and and obviously they've they've got
the technology they figured that out
too. So I think you need all three.
Awesome. One more question for you and
then we are all done. Most important one
of all. How can everyone get in touch
with you after this episode? Yeah. So
I'm on uh so on X I'm uh uh Jason
Materna can DM me there. LinkedIn just
Google J6
Spacematerna. Um that's the place that's
the place to find me. Um you know drop
me a note. um you know, love to love to
catch up. Um there's a little link
there. You can just book my calendar
directly on
LinkedIn. All right, sounds good. Well,
you crushed it. Thanks so much for your
time today, Jason.
[Music]