Today we're talking with Sean Nalen.
We're going to be going over some things
about ABM and the state of ABM and in
the new year and what we expect to be
coming and some of the trends that we're
seeing.
Sean's the founder of Spotlight IQ and
ABM tool focused on B2B audiences within
OTT, CTV, and Programmatic. And I'm
really excited to get into it. I'm
really interested to hear just at the
top like what are your predictions for
uh ABM in general and then CTTV OTT and
programmatic in 2026.
>> I think in general a lot of
conversations I've had with B2B
marketers you the ones that have used
the big ABM platforms or not you know I
think there's been some discussion about
trying to get away from the big big
platforms and and kind of stitch
together some things in a composable
stack kind of way. So, I think I think
this year is the year of the composable
ABM stack where where you're going to
have a lot of really smart marketers
trying to piece something together
rather than uh you know dive into a
really expensive licensing platform
situation where they may or may not need
it. And I think a lot of you know taking
a step back in the programmatic space I
think a lot of people have gotten caught
in that trap there too over the years
where they they get into something that
they they maybe not need just because
they don't know enough about it. So, I
think I think that that in general is,
you know, where I think some some ABM uh
things are going this year.
>> I think that's interesting. I think one
of the most like common refrains that I
heard over and over again through the
course of 2025 and 24 and 23 as well is
like everybody's trying to get more
efficient, do more with less. Money is
less accessible than it used to be. I
think there's a little bit of like uh
the clog in the drain seems to be
loosening a bit this year or towards the
end of last year but still like there
was a renewed focus on on efficiency
doing what you're suggesting also moving
away from big platform fees whether it
be in programmatic or in ABM tools is
really in line with what we've been
hearing across the board from our
clients as well. You know, if the goal
here is to be able to be as efficient as
possible, do more with less, avoiding a
five figure a month platform fee is an
easy way to do it. And I think that the
truth is like a lot of those tools were
really revolutionary for their time. And
like especially in the programmatic
space, there was no alternative for a
long time to some of those bigger
players. And when Six Sense came along,
they were the first big platform really
doing what they were doing. And that
that process seems to have moved a lot
faster than the programmatic space. But
like in each instance, there's a lot of
opportunities now for people to do what
the trade desk does with a lot lower
cost and to do what Six Sense does with
a lot lower cost. And I think we're
going to see a lot more people doing
that. I think that makes a lot of sense.
>> And you know, it's interesting too like
if you look at uh Demand Base, when I
you and I worked together a long time
ago, Demand Base was like the own the
DSP for ABM and that was really what
they were were known as. Fast forward to
today, they're six cents competitor,
right? So, it's like, you know, they
they have grown into something something
huge, you know, after after really
taking the term accountbased marketing
and running with it. Now, they're one of
those platforms, but again, like they
have this piece, the advertising piece,
it's still there that is, you know,
maybe somebody needs that, but doesn't
need everything else, the bells and
whistles. And obviously, I come from the
media side of things, right? So like my
exposure to ABM and B2B marketing in
general is mostly from the med media
side. But it's interesting to me to have
watched that and then every other player
in the space that exists in like the
programmatic or the you know the demand
side platforms the DSPs like Tradeesk
they're still all consumer focused. Even
even the connected TV specific platforms
that have grown up in the past few years
like Mountain or Vibe they are really
just focused on consumer audiences and
how to get in front of consumers. They
don't they don't speak ABM, let alone
having anything more sophisticated in
B2B other than some data segments that
they have from a specific provider. So,
it's it's a lot of like things that are
meant for consumers, meant for BTOC
being used for for ABM. And then the ABM
players in the space that have grown,
they've just grown way beyond caring
about, you know, percentage of media
fees kind of thing.
Yeah, you touched on a couple things
that are really interesting to me in the
marketing space in general is I see a
lot of not just on the programmatic
space or or just in general. I see a lot
of innovation on the B TOC side and not
as much on the B2B side. Does that
mirror what you're seeing as well?
>> Yeah, that that's kind of why what we've
been focusing on is trying to to be a
little bit more innovative in that
space. I think you know mainly it is a
ABM platform just a classic kind of SAS
play there there there's a certain model
that works for that and you know they're
going after certain types of bigger
enterprise everybody also wants to
always go after enterprise right so so
then if you if you look at the consumer
space there's just not as many there's
there's advertisers that need to target
but in the B2C space there's just a lot
more to target there's a lot more people
there's a lot more shampoo buyers than
there are for uh you know fintech
product, you know, so like where where
does it make most sense to invest? You
know, you're going to want to invest in
where the the dollars are going to be
spent more and that tends to be in B
toC. But I I think that's just because
the platforms that are out there and the
investments that are made are just made
in the classic sense, you know, trying
to get a big ROI and a big multiple and
B2B doesn't really trigger that for some
people. I think you really just have to,
you know, figure out who's putting that
that the investment in there and it's
not going to be the the big players
because it's just always been that way.
But I think there is room for others to
grow in this market, not expecting the
multiple that you would get if you were
trade desk or something like that.
>> Yeah, I think that's interesting. I
think one of one of the other things
that I think is advantageous for
companies when they're building their
tool to focus on consumer side rather
than B2B side is just data richness.
Because if you're selling shampoo in
your example, you can go off of revenue
earned because the revenue is realized
relatively quickly. Whereas in B2B,
you're looking at a binary. Did they
convert? Did they not convert? It's very
difficult from a statistical standpoint
to be able to build models that help you
find your best customer as easily as
possible because a lot of the revenue
events are happening way later. So, you
just have fewer data points to touch on
as well. So I think it's like the B2B
problem seems to me just much harder to
solve in general than the consumer side
problems. But what are some of the
limitations that you're seeing in your
space on on the the B2B and ABM side
compared to like how the problems that
you help solve maybe on would have
helped solved in the past on the
consumer side? Well, I think you hit it
already talking about just you're seeing
returns faster and every single one of
those platforms that exists. Everything,
all the signals, all of the
optimizations, the the success, the CPA
goal that you're trying to hit, uh, you
know, is all within the platform itself,
right? So like there's still a struggle
in the B TOC to say okay I have a $50
CPA you know in trade desk you know what
does that mean alongside everything else
that you're doing so like you know
you're having to like stitch together
the data and figure out you know is this
just dduplication is you know what about
incrementality so I think there even the
BTOC side can still have a lot of
problems but that's still all BTOC stuff
and I think that in a B2B world you have
to be able to understand you know more
about the the targeting you know, more
about who you're trying to reach. If you
are just putting out a TV ad, for
example, in Cleveland, you know, you're
going to hit a lot of people, but you're
going to hit a lot of wrong people. I
mean, that technology that exists to
target consumers exists for the B2B
side. So, if you have, you know, a buyer
at a company, you can actually target
that person, you know, that the buyer at
that company while they're at home
watching TV. And I don't think that the
the tying the business side and the the
personal side really just exists
natively in any of those platforms. So I
think being able to truly target your
accounts in in in connected TV and
programmatic in general is just
something that most don't focus on just
because like I said it's all B toc it's
all consumer identity graft. Well, I
mean, I think also just like in the
history of advertising, like video is a
really compelling form, but the issue
has been outside of like mass market,
it's been very difficult to manage
because it's hard to make sure that
you're hitting the right people. How are
you handling the the sort of like
persona targeting and uh targeting
issues today?
>> So, it just goes back to kind of the
data that you're using. So we use uh
data that's 100% deterministic based off
of things like job title. So you're you
know kind of like your LinkedIn style
firmographic type targeting based off of
the company industry but also uh buyer
persona VP of marketing.
So going at it that route instead of
that like I said earlier that BTOC
targeting of people that have show up in
this data segment because they have an
affinity for Crest or something like
that. you know, they're they're in 5,000
different buckets because they have some
data signal that says they've done this
or liked this or search for this in the
past, but you know, if we're you we're
talking about starting with the people
themselves and then fitting those into a
segment. So, so the difficulties there
are just how many people you have in the
segment or whatever you know you're
trying to target either either
stakeholders at a company or the buyers
of stakeholders at the company. Just
depends on how large it is. If you're a
smaller advertiser, you know, you only
have like a few hundred accounts or
something like that, that's a lot still
is harder to to manage. But if you have
a decent sized list of companies you're
trying to reach and stakeholders, their
business persona can be tied to the
personal persona and that just does not
exist uh in most places in the in the
B2C side of things.
>> What are what are the foundational what
are the foundational things that you
think a companies get in place for AVM
tooling to start getting some of these
pieces in place so they can start doing
some of what you're talking? So I mean
you can also you know tell me too like
you know the clients that you've talked
to but I think that what in my
conversations you know some of them you
know depending on the industry they're
in they don't even have their like CRM
figured out let alone having a robust
ABM strategy and even if they do have a
CRM let's say they have a HubSpot you
know it's unstructured it's just every
every account's in there right and so I
mean it's it's spending some time or
working with a tool that can help create
lists or you know segmentation so you're
not blankly targeting everybody with the
same messaging. But I think it just
still starts kind of with some blocking
and tackling is is you know, first of
all, who are you trying to target? Do
you understand your persona? Do you
understand your customer? And then do
you have a database of of contacts that
you're trying to to reach? And are they
segmented by message, you know, either
by industry or something like that? So,
I think I think that's just really still
blocking and tackling. But but in my
experience in the past year uh you know
talking about this specifically is like
there is there are a lot of advertisers
out there even mid-market size
businesses that are right now today in
January of 2026 right now figuring out
they got to redo their CRM system.
they've been using some antiquated thing
for 10 15 years or they installed you
know HubSpot Pixel three years ago or we
still have to figure out how to work but
now I think because what you said
earlier about things have been kind of
economy wise moving a little bit faster
I think they're find some people are
starting to move faster and figuring out
those things they have more time to
figure it out or they have the people to
figure it out but yeah blocking and
tackling and just having having an
understanding of who your customer is
first and then what you know do you have
a database of existing customers
customers and the prospects you're
trying to go after.
>> Yeah, it's actually interesting. I've
been on two calls that basically reflect
almost exactly what you said like just
today, like this morning. One of them
was a discovery call where their big
initiative going into the beginning of
the year is retooling their CRM to make
sure that they can tie marketing metrics
to business outcomes rather than just
reporting to leads and MQLs, which is I
think one of the most foundational steps
you can make to be successful at any of
your B2B marketing is like unless you're
driving to meaningful business outcomes,
what are we doing? Um, and then the
other one was talking about, you know,
doing customer interviews for their
product and how they really defined who
they were and who their customer was and
how that was fundamental to their
success story and how they transitioned
into like being a fledgling uh early
stage startup to to what they are today.
I It's just funny like you the two of
the things other people have mentioned
to me this morning.
>> Yeah, that's funny. Right.
>> But it's true though if it's weird. I
mean it's and also and I think you you
you know you're you're you're like kind
of like B2B SAS fintech you're more you
know start startup I've talked to
companies that have been around for 20
years in like the manufacturing space or
construction space and they are having
the same thoughts today that a B2B you
know SAS or fintech company is which is
really funny to me it's like it doesn't
matter if you're a brand new startup or
a series A or a 20-year-old generational
business like old they're all starting
to figure this out. Well, I think one of
the things that I've noticed also from
running a business that is sort of like
often forgotten a lot and I think a lot
of company's growth story is like what
what got you to this point is not
necessarily what's going to get you to
the next point. And I think a lot of
companies that where they fail is they
think like well we've always done it
this way and this has worked. So like
why would we change it? But it's like if
you want to take that next big step like
things have to be different. You know
what I mean? what I what I think a lot
of companies are realizing and then I
think there's also just been this big
push for efficiency and like what may
have worked in the past what used to be
good in the past is maybe not good in
today's economy you know so a lot of
companies are learning how to shift and
adjust off of that but I also want to
ask like you asked you mentioned
something that we generally my agency
generally works with like earlier stage
sort of like series A and later startups
that are relatively new companies and
you've worked with a lot of like
mid-market and enterprise and and like
sort of legacy businesses that have been
been around for 20 years and I'm kind of
curious to hear your perspective like
how do ABM needs shift as you go from
working with those smaller earlier stage
companies to like more mid-market
enterprise and like legacy businesses.
>> So, so you know to be clear uh uh
manufacturing
you know construction uh are part of
companies I talk to you know I I also
speak to to smaller companies uh you
know that are in the you know B2B SAS or
fintech space. That being said, I think
their their problems with like ABM and
what to do, how to how to handle
account-based marketing also just
depends on their team and the
capabilities of their team. Who is first
choosing the tools that you're using?
Who are using these tools? What are you
enabling them with? You know, how are
you empowering your sales team with that
data? Are you know are you just saying,
"Hey, here is your here's your assigned
list of accounts. You know, go at it. We
will do marketing automation and hey,
this person visited the website. you
know, we're going to send an email out
kind of a thing, you know, but but what
if you were able to, you know, enable
them with other pieces of data like, you
know, they came to the website and did
these actions or they saw this ad on TV
and then came to the site or or
whatever. It just matters on how you're
enabling your team and who your team is,
what's your team composed of. I don't
think that really makes a difference
between kind of legacy business or
startup. I think it's it's truly about
the vision and the plan. And it doesn't
matter if we're talking B2B or B TOC
media choices and adtech and all that. I
I think it still just goes back to a lot
of foundational things. Uh and if you're
not set up to to be able to have a good
team and make the decisions, it doesn't
matter what tool you use or m doesn't
matter what marketing channel you're
using. I think that that is that is the
common thing. So to to hear either it's
a startup or it's a 20-year-old business
or long or older saying the same thing.
I just think it goes back to vision and
team and what you're trying to
accomplish and do you have somebody
there to help guide you know because I
think it's all it's all great to say I
want to be we want to be more efficient
or we want to grow but what does it
actually mean
you know if you have a leadership that's
saying we want to be more efficient
>> like I said what does that actually mean
how are we trying to be more efficient
what are we what are our goals for the
year and I don't think it makes a
difference if it's a a series A startup
or if it's a 20-year-old 50-y old
business or anything like that just
depends on the leadership I
>> I think that's what we're seeing too is
like the tactics and strategies don't
really shift too much between like the
different sizes of business. It's just
about determining who your customer is
and the strategies do shift a little bit
in the sense of like who you're going
after. But like the actual mechanisms by
which you accomplish this the end goal
is is relatively similar. It's just a
matter of what level of sophistication
you're using and what types of buyers
and like the upfront work before you do
uh the marketing work that really
determines the difference between
startup and enterprise and those various
things, right? Like when we work with
enterprise companies, our sales
enablement material is through the roof.
When we're working with startups, we
have like two guides we're trying to
share out or whatever, you know, and
like
>> that's that's like one of the big key
differences is just like the level of
resourcing that you have at your
disposal at your disposal. I mean along
with like budget I guess and everything
else but um and I think this is actually
an interesting thing also that I I
wanted to kind of ask you is we're
talking a lot about ABM and ABM has been
around for a long time and I think the
reason that B2B companies don't get
behind it as much as they did is because
tooling was really expensive things
really hard to implement someone has to
own it and really understand it and be
able to effectively explain business
value from it but do you have any idea
about what are some of the issue other
issues that B2B companies are coming
across that makes them sort of shy away
from a broader ABM strategy.
>> Uh, you know, I I think that, you know,
the the issue is they think about it
from a big picture standpoint and they
might start doing some searches about
accountbased marketing and they're going
to get six cents and they're going to
get demand science and they're going to
get all all the links to all these
companies and they're just going to see
all this stuff, do I really need all
these things? And then they don't have a
partner that's going to tell them yes or
no, you need these things. And I think I
think just just just jumping in to that
term and searching for that term and
trying to learn more about it is just in
by it very nature I think overwhelming.
I think that that's it. But if you if
you really kind of break down what ABM
is, you know, because actually I did
look into this recently um because I did
have a conversation uh with like the
original chief marketing officer, Greg
Au, from Demandbased recently and they
were like tooling around a couple
different terms to use to to kind of
ride off of and they just chose
accountbased marketing which had
actually been around for I think a
decade or two before. Um and then and
then just this this is what it is. like
they coined that when that was basically
like the programmatic DSP and then all
these other platforms kind of grown and
then grew into that whether or not
they're already doing ABM and they just
didn't like call it that but that's what
it is now. It's just this massive like
you know platform that you use and
there's tons of different modules. I
mean I mean think about if you're from
where we came from originally you know
working with startup companies that are
trying to do paid search or they might
just doing Facebook trying to do
programmatic and you does the display
even work
>> that was overwhelming for those
companies too trying to figure out what
works and what doesn't work so I I can't
even imagine you know somebody that
isn't experienced or been around a long
time looking at what this all is and I
think that's just daunting to some
people and but if you can teach them
that you can get the same types of
things uh without having to use these
massive platforms, then they will be
interested in that. But what are you
really trying to do? You're just trying
to break it into composable pieces that
what tools can you use to reach your
target accounts? That's it. Like it's
it's it's it's not rocket science. How
do you reach
>> but it can be overwhelming?
>> Yeah. One of the big things I would
always tell our clients when Six Sense
was picking up a huge amount of market
share in the space, I kept saying like,
"Have you tried just running like
account-based campaigns on LinkedIn to
see if this is a strategy you want to
pursue before you pay for the big
platform fees?" And like in all honesty,
I think to your point, um, accountbased
marketing has now also become sort of
synonymous with demandbased and and six
sense, but like in reality, as a
practice, it can be done with a lot more
a lot of smaller, more individualized
pieces that are much lower cost and much
more approachable rather than being this
big daunting experience. So I I think
that's that's something that we've seen
a lot too is I've always tried to be
like, "Hey, before you like jump in this
pool, maybe we should dip our toes in
the water over here and make sure we
want to do this." You know what I mean?
And I think that's like the thing that I
think a lot of people got away from. And
again, this is sort of like talking
about the difference of like um the
business culture today versus the
business culture a couple years ago
where when money was a lot more
accessible.
>> Yep.
>> Firm fees weren't as daunting. Um and
now they're a little bit more
>> sure sign me up. Yes. Yeah. No problem.
We'll worry about the bills later.
>> It's like my investor said this was
really good.
>> Capital's cheap.
>> Yeah. Exactly. So, I I had two other
questions I wanted to really ask about
like ABM and and and get some thoughts
on your approach here, too. One is sort
of like what are some of the things that
are working today that weren't working
five or 6 years ago and vice versa like
what did work five or six years ago that
doesn't work now? How has like the ABM
process shifted over time? I think if
you talk about from my perspective, my
experience, you know, programmatic IP
address targeting was kind of the
foundational thing of of all of that,
you know, businesses, can you target
somebody on a business IP address, you
know, while they're on their business
computer and and you know, that was
precoid, you know, and then remote work
happened. Everybody is split up at home.
That IP address targeting did not, you
know, work as well. Oh, hey. and then
we're gonna, you know, Apple's gonna get
rid of the, you know, tracking and, you
know, we're missing, you know, you're
missing a ton of signals there. So, good
luck with all of that. So, I think I
think that that that um caused a lot of
confusion and disappointment.
And I think though now, of course, now
that cookies are staying and Google
Google's cool with that, and oh, hey, by
the way, IP address is no longer a
serious privacy concern. So, we're going
to back the idea that IP address is is
okay again. I think some of the things
that people maybe got away from with IP
address targeting specifically um will
will kind of become more prevalent. I
think for sure and a lot of things that
may have worked, you know, that that
people got away from because of the
split between home and work. I think
that some of those things are going to
come back again because in today's
world, uh your your your home life and
your work, you know, life, those can be
tied together. I mean we still live in a
world where I mean unfortunately
unfortizing
pays for everything that we're doing uh
you know using the internet that's just
the media the revenue generation vehicle
for for everybody right so like I think
that um you know that just coming back
around again being able to tie those
things together and IP address uh
becoming okay uh I I going to cause a
lot of uh things to turn around and be
tried again that maybe people ditched
out on. So, you know, it could be any
number of platforms that were really big
in IP address targeting that may have
people gotten away from, but then again,
Demandbased was one of them and they
became a big big platform. So, maybe
people are going to try to like knock on
that door again, figure out that maybe
don't they don't need to go to demand
base to find IP address targeting.
No, that's awesome. So, that's like
really cues up the next question really
nicely is is what is your big prediction
for 2026 here at the beginning of
January? What do you think is the the
big prediction you want to make? So we
talking predictions from the the B2B
specific ABM angle or programmatic you
connect to TV uh angle or or all the
above?
>> I think just sort of media prediction in
2026 and then my follow-up question was
already going to be the AVM strategy
piece
>> but yeah what's what's your like media
prediction for 2026 and
>> yeah so I think that uh you're going to
see uh in the connected TV space you're
going to see Netflix get really really
big when it comes to or or attempt to
become really really big. my
understanding things I've read and
talked to people I've talked to um
they're really making an investment in
their whole kind of walled garden stack
that they hadn't done before because
when they launched a couple years ago
really wasn't ready for prime time and I
think the person that ended up running
the the sales there left after a year
but again they were just kind I think it
was a little bit more of like an old
school media approach kind of upfront
buying and you know not understanding
that there are there are are you know
pipes that need to be put together to
enable buying and selling so I think
you're going to Netflix really pop up as
kind of a a a CTV platform like you see
with uh Hulu or or Roku or Peacock.
That's I think so I think Netflix will
probably stand start standing out as
another standalone wall garden in the
space. Amazon's going to continue to get
bigger from their DSP perspective um
with their inventory with Fire TV and I
think you'll probably see those growths
happening at the expense of like a trade
desk this year. And so I think you're
going to see budgets shifting from trade
desk over to testing new CTV specific
stuff like Netflix or to Amazon DSP. I
think that that those are my my kind of
my big media predictions for the year.
>> I think it'll be really interesting to
see what happens with like the Warner
Brothers deal which seems like um it's
going to change the landscape pretty
dramatically uh for CT and OTT and
ultimately a big have a big impact on
the AVM side.
Like the the last question I wanted to
ask is like what is your biggest hot
take on ABM strategy heading into 2026?
Then I
>> my biggest hot take is is go the
composable route, piece together your
stack, have good good teams uh you know
work with good teams, helping you figure
that out and be okay with having an
outsider tell you that this doesn't work
or this does work. But I just feel that,
you know, this is the year with all the
tools, especially in, you know,
including connected TV, you know,
piecing things together that help you
target your exact accounts or find more
of those accounts is easier to do when
you're piecing things together. So, I
don't think I don't think the big
platforms uh need necessarily to to um
you don't need to go that route anymore.
I don't know if it's a hot take, but
that's just my my take on ABM in general
this year is the composable stack is a
way to go.
>> Yeah. I mean, I've been a big advocate
of that forever. It's like rather than
paying for expensive tools, find ways to
do what you need to do at as low cost as
you can. It's sort of like the MVP model
of launching products, but like you want
to find your minimal viable opportunity
to accomplish the end goal that you're
looking to accomplish and then if it
works, build up to to bigger stuff, but
not necessarily focusing on the big
price tag stuff up first. Well, let me
push back to you too. Like what when
you're saying like test things out, I
know you said you work, you know,
startups or series A and above, you
know, so they are probably trying to
figure out their whole mix here. What
feedback have you gotten when you talk
about the idea of a composable stack
versus going directly to a six sense or
something like
>> I think the thing for us is we're pretty
platform agnostic and and generally
speaking like we don't get a lot of we
work with whatever clients have at their
disposal. So we're only a party to these
discussions when they're going through
this process while working with us. And
generally speaking, that's where we have
an opportunity as thought leaders in the
space and and this people driving
strategy for our clients. We can say,
you know, I suggest you do this first
and then we can get voted down pretty
easily
>> by our clients. felt like we uh as like
the experts in the space usually we'll
advise um we'll usually advise to to
work on you know find whatever the
lowest cost way to get to our end goal
is as an initial test and then when we
run out of scale then moving up. So like
just generally speaking, the way that we
think about marketing in general also is
we usually advise people away from
spending too much time on on display and
programmatic until they've filled out
the more lowfunnel option opportunities
in their stack. And that's where usually
we focus more of our energy is,
>> you know, helping people fill out the
bottom of the funnel with like Google
search so you can start answering hand
raisers and and getting them in the
system and getting them in your program.
Then moving a little bit wider into
intentbased channels like LinkedIn and
Meta. And then as we move a little bit
wider, we start moving into uh
account-based approaches within those
networks and then account-based
approaches more broadly through
programmatic and things like that. So we
think about things as sort of a a
stacked funnel like that.
>> And in and I I totally agree with what
you're saying. I mean, I when I was at
an my last agency I was at like I've had
I had many conversations where you we're
in the sales process and I I would say
like I do not think programmatic is
right for this prospect and I I think
that anybody trying to sell them on it
is doing them a disservice and you know
sometimes that was my my detriment but
that that comes comes from where I grew
up initially at progressive where we had
the data and we spoke real truth you
know and I just always have that's how
that's how I've always been um in for
almost 20 years and you know I think
that that is you know you have to speak
the truth in order to in order to do
that. My question to you though is okay
so so I get having you know you have
demand there and how do we get capture
that demand you know as efficient as
possible but how do you approach a
series A startup and who who needs to
work on awareness because programmatic
in general right was kind of always
known as the the brand awareness part of
this whole thing even if you had
retargeting as part of it. So, how do
you approach awareness and you know
trying to and then getting into
consideration um you know for these
companies that are in growth mode? I'm
just curious on like where where do you
come down on and again not about
programmatic specifically but about
generating awareness for a product or
service for a startup.
Yeah, I think the hardest challenge that
we have from a marketing perspective is
working with category creators because
there isn't demand to go capture and you
have to go create that demand within
your user base, right? Or your customer
base. Again, there I think the the best
opportunity is to try and find the
lowest cost opportunity to to get in
front of those eyeballs. And usually
that's not like, you know, paying for a
big ABM tool. It's about targeting
people in LinkedIn and an account-based
approach or a contact focused approach.
I guess it's company or contact approach
both are accountbased marketing but
using that as our first lever because
that's probably the best way to go about
it using some data tools like clay or
you know we have clients that use Zoom
info or Apollo but again we're very like
platform agnostic so we adhere to
whatever our clients have at their
disposal and create some sort of proxy
for what rough look LinkedIn targeting
would look like on meta or other
channels and then targeting people that
way. Generally, we've actually seen
relatively
we haven't seen as much success doing
that as I would have expected because
just the stitching professional back to
personal using the tools that we have at
our disposal a lot of times are is not
as clean as one would hope. Um, if you
don't have like a sophisticated uh go to
market engineer, it's a little bit tough
sometimes. So, like just trying to lean
on Zoom info is not usually going to get
you where you need to get. But that's
sort of like the way that we approach it
is trying to figure out like what the
minimal approach to be able to get to
that end is and then accomplish that and
get in front of those people as
frequently as possible because to build
awareness to build yourself as a
category. The main goals are going to be
the two primary measures that you think
about in traditional advertising are
reach and frequency. And it's really
about having the right audience that you
want, reaching the broadest number
within that small group and then hitting
them as many times as possible is the
only way that you can do it effectively
from a cost perspective because you know
in traditional TV advertising you think
about reach and frequency but you're
usually selling ubiquitous goods that
that anyone can buy. But when you're in
a B2B market, you want to fish from a
smaller pool rather than being in the
middle of that big ocean, right? So
finding uh a way to niche down so that
you can get in front of just the right
people is is the big thing that we
always think about. So yeah, that's kind
of
>> No, I agree. I mean, I agree. I mean,
honestly, you know, you know, what I've
been working on at Spilot IQ, you know,
specifically addresses that concern,
right? I mean like like you have to be
able to target the right people whether
or not it's specific buyers at a company
or or multiple companies. Um but you
still have to be able to tie it back and
you still have to be able to you know
see is it well first is it you're doing
any kind of action. Um you know are we
are we able to to to marry it into our
CRM? I mean I guess that was what I want
to ask you about was with these startups
you talked to are they are they using
like um HubSpot or are they using a CRM?
like what is helping them understand the
customers you're going after and the
actions that they're taking?
>> The stacks that our customers are most
frequently using is is usually HubSpot.
I would say earlier on in in my
business's existence, we had a lot more
Salesforce clients uh clients using
Salesforce. I think Salesforce has sort
of priced themselves out of our client
base in a lot of ways. And HubSpot has
really added a lot of features while
remaining still a relatively affordable
tool in the space. So most of our
clients are using HubSpot as as their
main tool and then usually there's some
sort of like sales or audience tool in
addition to it. Um and that's sort of
the stack that we're usually working
with. And then the rest of it is is just
you know we try to use native platform
stuff rather than adding any additional
software. My general focus as a business
operator and a marketer is to be as like
software light as possible because to
your point about like composable ABM
stack. There's no need to add any layers
on top of like the ad networks
themselves. It's about just being really
good in the ad networks themselves I
think is more valuable than than trying
to rely on tools to to accomplish that.
>> Yep. No, I agree. I mean, I just think
too is like it's interesting as you
mentioned like you know the like the
kind of awareness side of things and
picking the pieces to to start with and
then not really seeing a lot of results
and is that like more of like a we can't
really see it anything happening in and
you know we we don't know if these
accounts are moving down the funnel
because they did an XYZ is that because
they're just not connecting like the
different platforms or just not or or
they're using stuff outside of the
platforms that connect to to HubSpot for
example.
>> Yeah. So like I think one of the biggest
things that we've seen, we were talking
about like this goaling around
efficiency and the change in the market
over the last couple years. The biggest
thing that we've seen is just a big
movement towards pipeline marketing
attributed pipeline growth rather than
driving leads. We're focusing on
opportunities and pipeline specifically.
Um and that's where HubSpot's been super
important. And then within that, like I
would say a bunch of our clients being
that they are a little bit earlier
startups, there's not as defined an
account base as there might be for
larger companies where they're like, you
know, we're selling insurance to this
vertical. Um, so it it ends up being a
little bit trickier to apply a lot of
account-based approaches at a really
broad scope, which is why, you know, I
think LinkedIn's accountbased tool is
really solid. like it really
accomplishes a lot of what you need to
do at a in a in a startup space without
having to add a lot of extra tooling. So
yeah.
>> No, I agree. I mean I think for me my
experience with LinkedIn it's it when
you're staying within the platform I
think it's definitely done what it's
supposed to do and it's an easy way to
get into it, right? But
>> self a lot of people have like there's
like a default setting now that that has
you run across their audience network
which I've seen a number of clients in
pitches have selected and I'm like yeah
>> yeah well I mean to be honest with you I
mean like so you know within the past
like year and a half or whatever it was
LinkedIn started doing connected TV you
know it was in beta then took it out of
beta
>> and it's still in beta as far as I'm
concerned and when I hear everybody
talking about quoting not ready for
prime time when you're even talking
about TV which I think is funny but just
simply, you know, the typical kind of
problems about
>> not being able to get good impressions,
you know, good quality, you know,
networks to show up or we don't know
what we're getting or we have to use the
reps to get something that should be
that any media buyer could do in another
world, you know. So, I think that to me
that's like a kind of a pet peeve of
mine is adding in connected TV. But the
tool in of itself as ABM LinkedIn as I
think is is an easy button for for some
and I think is trying to over complicate
it. It's like come on
>> when I'm talking about ABM like the only
instance where I've seen really be
successful is that specifically focusing
on
>> um on platform LinkedIn users because I
think the other thing too there is like
the benefit of that LinkedIn has on
their accountbased approach with like
LinkedIn users is just if you're on
LinkedIn you're there for a business
purpose.
>> Yep. hopefully otherwise like yeah um no
but like if you're on LinkedIn you're
there to either hire or look for a job
or to learn something about your
business so you're like in the right
mindset and I think that's the instance
where like doing accountbased approaches
where we're taking professional user IDs
and applying that you know and getting
their personal IDs and then targeting
them on meta has been less successful is
because they're just there for a
different purpose. Context matters man.
I mean kind totally like again the idea
of you know being showing an ad in a
feed on LinkedIn for business purposes
is tremendously different than showing
up in in in Facebook feed for the same
purpose right totally different context
but you one of the reasons why connected
TV has gotten so big in general is that
it's you know 100% viewable almost 99
whatever you know 100% completion rate
pretty much because you have you can't
really skip unless depending on what
platform you're watching on but you have
people engaged in a moment and they're
watching TV. So, you know, and and
people that are watching TV are more
engaged even if they're on their phones
at the same time than you if you're just
sitting back and watching linear
television. So, like the context
matters. So, if you're grabbing
somebody's attention while they're
relaxed and lean back in their living
room, that's a way better thing to do
than Facebook advertising with that
business things. I think CTV on LinkedIn
made sense, but again, what we said was
getting off of their platform with the
way they're set up. That's where thing
the rails start to fall.
>> They haven't been successful at doing
that in any any area.
>> No. But then again, a lot of other
places try to do off-network like
Facebook or whatever and a lot of those
things never really worked as well as
the on platform stuff really.
>> Yeah. 100%. Even like when you look at
like Google search partners versus
Google search like it is a huge huge
downgrade even though it's roughly the
same tool operating on different sites.
>> Yeah. This is amazing. This is an
awesome conversation. Thank you so much
for your time. Um, and we'll have to do
it again soon.